[December 28, 2020] Indiana State (3-3) vs. Drake (10-0)

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Given the above ....and what we've seen so far on the court ..... how is it that every year ......every year I read on this site near the end of a season/summer how next year will be different "with the guys we have coming in"
And yet, with "the guys that came in" we're pretty much the same. Year in --- year out
I know very little about the guys we get before they start playing for ISU -- don't follow high school players anymore, let alone guys from some Div II school out east.
I know those of you making these claims are trying to be positive, but apparently you're not any more knowledgable than me .....go figure ???

100 percent accurate and it's been that way for quite a few years now. I never base much on what this board has to say going into a season. It's all rah rah rah and then a few games into the season it's "we just don't have the talent Lansing needs" and a ton of excuses in his defense.
 
The fact of the matter is that Marty Simmons has been to the championship game since Greg Lansing and they moved on from him several years ago. Southern Illinois under Barry Hinson was pretty decent and better than us most years, but they even moved on.

No one is questioning Lansing being a decent person or running a clean program, but I don't see us ever being anything other than mediocre as long as he's here. I don't even think everything is his fault, but it sure seems like a lot of things are that he has control over.

For those who are interested:
Odum Years= (79-55)(41-31 MVC)
Since then= (90-104)(50-60 MVC)
 
Stop. We're not talking about Marty Simmons and Evansville compared to Indiana State. We're simply not going to have that conversation on here. I'm defending anyone or anything - I'm just not going to sit here and listen to people talk about Marty Simmons and Evansville. The fact of the matter is Evansville pissed away more talent than anyone in the MVC during Simmons time at Evansville - he didn't get canned for not making it to a Valley Championship game that shit doesn't hold any water in here or have anything to do with the future of Lansing/Indiana State. That program is as close to any in D1 to cutting basketball all together. So enough of that.
 
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Stop. We're not talking about Marty Simmons and Evansville compared to Indiana State. We're simply not going to have that conversation on here. I'm defending anyone or anything - I'm just not going to sit here and listen to people talk about Marty Simmons and Evansville. That program is as close to any in D1 to cutting basketball all together. So enough of that.

Excuse me. Why not talk about it? They literally spend more on their basketball program and their coach than we do. They seem to be tired of the mediocrity unlike us. McCarty put them in a tough spot last season, but it looks like they still might end up being better than us this season.
 
Furthermore... Saying Indiana State doesn't have the resources/budget/cash to compete with other MVC schools will apply no matter what coaches name you plug in here. Saying that coach ___________ isn't only to blame because of resources isn't really intended to be an excuse for a coach to not preform. In addition (and really speaking only for myself now) - me saying that coach Lansing has good donor and alumni support as a reason it will be hard to fire him. That is just a fact - maybe not a fact that some people understand or care about but it's simply a fact.

But again, some of these things are really more adding to the conversation than making excuses or defending Lansing. I just don't read any of the conversation here as people coming to Lansing's defense - how can anyone defend this roster makeup?? Don't confuse people looking at bigger picture issues going on or other external factors as excuses - that is not fair to anyone on here. For the most part this is a reasonable group of people that visit this forum.
 

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Excuse me. Why not talk about it? They literally spend more on their basketball program and their coach than we do. They seem to be tired of the mediocrity unlike us. McCarty put them in a tough spot last season, but it looks like they still might end up being better than us this season.

You go ahead and talk about whatever you want. Indiana State is in and has been in far better shape under Lansing than Evansville was under Marty Simmons. I am done talking to you about Marty Simmons and Evansville - that is a big waste of my time. I'm not trying to be disrespectful - I just disagree with everything you say related to them.
 
Marty Simmons led UE to a 25-9 (12-6 MVC) record in 2016 which was good enough for a second place finish. They beat us 68-42 in the semifinals and lost to UNI in the championship game by 2 on a fluke buzzer beater. We haven't done anything noteworthy since 2014, but yet Evansville moved on a few years ago. Lansing might have his mafia of donors, but we're lucky to draw 2000 actual people to a game. Who knows what that number will be when things return to normal.
 
That "mafia of donors", his contract and other Indiana State financial factors are the reason why Indiana State hasn't moved on from Greg Lansing. He was just good enough for them to no be able to do much with him. I hate to have to continue to explain that to some of you - but I assure you they would have moved on long ago without these three factors - or excuses as Bent wants to call them.

* Having perspective and understanding the big picture isn't an excuse or a ringing endorsement for mediocrity.
 
The biggest reason Lansing is still here is because we didn't have the money to buy him out. We named the football practice field after someone that gave something like a $30k donation towards it. I have my doubts that this mafia Lansing has is really donating a ton of money.
 
Evansville success has less to do with Marty Simmons and more to do with the fact that during his successful years, he had arguably the best player in the Valley both times in Colt Ryan and DJ Balentine. Three times he eclipsed 20 wins. The first time was a senior Colt Ryan with a senior Troy Taylor that was the defensive stalwart and facilitator. They also had a freshman DJ Balentine and Mock. Then the next two times he had a JR and then SR version of DJ Balentine and Mock.

Players win games. Great players win conference titles and make the tournament. This isn't the 60's and 70's anymore where systems won. We have much greater athletes and there is the ability for a consolidation of talent due to AAU and all of these Summer leagues where kids play together. If you want to win, you have to have the most horses.
 

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Remember how playing in the CBI
Furthermore... Saying Indiana State doesn't have the resources/budget/cash to compete with other MVC schools will apply no matter what coaches name you plug in here. Saying that coach ___________ isn't only to blame because of resources isn't really intended to be an excuse for a coach to not preform. In addition (and really speaking only for myself now) - me saying that coach Lansing has good donor and alumni support as a reason it will be hard to fire him. That is just a fact - maybe not a fact that some people understand or care about but it's simply a fact.

But again, some of these things are really more adding to the conversation than making excuses or defending Lansing. I just don't read any of the conversation here as people coming to Lansing's defense - how can anyone defend this roster makeup?? Don't confuse people looking at bigger picture issues going on or other external factors as excuses - that is not fair to anyone on here. For the most part this is a reasonable group of people that visit this forum.

Baseball program has no problem winning with low pay..
 
You’ll be lucky to have a baseball program if people on this forum had it the way the wanted... Apparently they don’t realize that spending at the D1 mid major level has a ceiling?!

Because somethings got to give. You either up the coaching salary for hoops - attract a higher level candidate and give him the recruiting budget of a high mid major program - in doing so Indiana State will be forced to eliminate one or more sports teams.

OR

For the sake of the University, athletes, coaches, alums etc. you maintain and continue to do the best you can with the resources you have and don’t cut programs. You also in this day and age fire coaches that are marginally successful - which can be weighted by things other than just wins and losses. In doing so - you accept the fact that the system is rigged and P5/NCAA have been compromised by $$$ and that you will NEVER compete with them on a level playing field.

You can give me one off examples all you want of programs that have been successful with less than adequate facilities and money. I am just aware of those successes stories as anyone - you’re not bringing anything to light that I’m not already very aware of. But thank you!
 
Baseball program has no problem winning with low pay..

It's not about the amount of pay, it's about the difference in pay.

Without taking the time to do any research on the subject, I would bet that most of the baseball coaches in the league are paid fairly similar amounts. And I would bet most of the programs are funded with similar amounts. I doubt there is a coach making 1 million dollars in a year while other make 1/3 to 1/4 of that. I would doubt there are baseball budgets that are 2-3x what other league schools have in their budget.

When one school can (and does) spend millions more on a sport, is anyone surprised when that school has better results?

I think (not trying to put words in SSOMs mouth so if I'm wrong please correct me) what SSOM is trying to say is that Indiana State has systemic issues within their athletic department i.e. funding, and simply swapping out coaches doesn't make those problems go away.

Lansing may be let go at the end of this year, and maybe it will be the right decision, maybe not. time will tell. But no matter who the coach is, the school still will be one of the lowest paying, lowest budgeted programs in the league, and that has an impact on how much success the school can have.

To put it another way, if the house has mold, the roof leaks and the wiring is faulty, simply slapping on a fresh coat of paint on the outside isn't going solve much. The house may look better but it still needs renovations.
 
The problem is that ISU has accepted mediocrity for so long that it has even rubbed off on some of the fans. No one is asking for a national championship, but I don't think expecting to compete (not even win) for a conference championship (reg or StL) once in a while is too much to ask for. It's been 7 seasons since we competed for a regular season title and since then we get ran out of the Enterprise Center with blowout losses.

I used to defend Lansing, but it's the same nonsense and patterns year after year. I wasn't even excited for the season this year. Competing for 6th place every year just so we can lose by 30 in St Louis is not fun.

We're all aware of our budget issues, and while it may be an obstacle there are plenty of successful mid major programs that spend less than us on hoops. And the problems most of us are complaining about have nothing to do with the basketball budget.

For what it's worth I'm cautiously optimistic that if we move on from Lansing we will find a way to increase the basketball budget just like we found a way to increase the football budget. Paying two coaches at once would have been stupid, but I think we've been in a lame duck mode ever since they cut off the rolling contract. No one is going to throw a ton of money into a program with a coach they don't have confidence in.
 

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The problem is that ISU has accepted mediocrity for so long that it has even rubbed off on some of the fans. No one is asking for a national championship, but I don't think expecting to compete (not even win) for a conference championship (reg or StL) once in a while is too much to ask for. It's been 7 seasons since we competed for a regular season title and since then we get ran out of the Enterprise Center with blowout losses.

I used to defend Lansing, but it's the same nonsense and patterns year after year. I wasn't even excited for the season this year. Competing for 6th place every year just so we can lose by 30 in St Louis is not fun.

We're all aware of our budget issues, and while it may be an obstacle there are plenty of successful mid major programs that spend less than us on hoops. And the problems most of us are complaining about have nothing to do with the basketball budget.

For what it's worth I'm cautiously optimistic that if we move on from Lansing we will find a way to increase the basketball budget just like we found a way to increase the football budget. Paying two coaches at once would have been stupid, but I think we've been in a lame duck mode ever since they cut off the rolling contract. No one is going to throw a ton of money into a program with a coach they don't have confidence in.

money affects far more than folks want to admit; I'm not convinced ISU can find even more $$ when/after they move on from Lansing; I think the world will look significantly different (for a while) in a post-COVID environment
 
The problem is that ISU has accepted mediocrity for so long that it has even rubbed off on some of the fans. No one is asking for a national championship, but I don't think expecting to compete (not even win) for a conference championship (reg or StL) once in a while is too much to ask for. It's been 7 seasons since we competed for a regular season title and since then we get ran out of the Enterprise Center with blowout losses.

I used to defend Lansing, but it's the same nonsense and patterns year after year. I wasn't even excited for the season this year. Competing for 6th place every year just so we can lose by 30 in St Louis is not fun.

We're all aware of our budget issues, and while it may be an obstacle there are plenty of successful mid major programs that spend less than us on hoops. And the problems most of us are complaining about have nothing to do with the basketball budget.

For what it's worth I'm cautiously optimistic that if we move on from Lansing we will find a way to increase the basketball budget just like we found a way to increase the football budget. Paying two coaches at once would have been stupid, but I think we've been in a lame duck mode ever since they cut off the rolling contract. No one is going to throw a ton of money into a program with a coach they don't have confidence in.

Not to sound like a broken record, but here goes.....

Just like in the baseball example I used earlier, it doesn't matter how little a program spends. What matters is how little they spend compared to their peers.

I have no doubt you can find smaller programs than ours that spend less on basketball and have won their conference, but who cares if they are spending as much or more than the teams in their conference. For example, if Example University spends one million a year on their basketball program, and we spend three, is that a fair comparison? Not if every team in their conference spends one million. What if Example U. spends two million on their program, but everyone else in their conference spends one million.? Now, they spend a million less than us so we should be impressed at their success compared to ours. Except that they outspend their conference peers 2-1, while we are outspent 2 or 3-1. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison now is it?

Go find me the mid major program that is in the bottom of their conference in funding their basketball program AND consistently wins at a high level. My guess is you won't find one. But if you do, THAT is the coach we need to hire.
 
Not to mention when Marty was winning 20 games a season he was scheduling every 300+ RPI team he could find.

maybe so but there are dozens of factors involved in scheduling a pre-conference schedule; this board has been filled with the trials/tribulations of ISU getting games scheduled, especially in Terre Haute

If Simmons had to schedule 300+ RPI teams, so be it
 
Go find me the mid major program that is in the bottom of their conference in funding their basketball program AND consistently wins at a high level. My guess is you won't find one. But if you do, THAT is the coach we need to hire.

Hahahahahaha, it’s funny cuz it’s true!
 
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