Have we retired our last jersey?

[Jason Svoboda]

Robbie has such a great connection with ISU and TH. I really hope he can think for himself in this process and not let JS’s bad decision be his decision too. The goggles, the powder blues, the Larry Bird nicknames…man it would just be legendary to stay here. 2k points in a career at a single school will be unheard of in 25 years. The legacy is here, Robbie. Let us hang your jersey!

Couldn't agree more.

With free agency, legacy is just about done. Even at high majors. It's one of the most under considered byproducts of all of this. Most programs are going to be chasing lightning in a bottle on a yearly basis unless the multi-year NIL deals come to fruition.

Was listening to a NBA pod and I think it was Gilbert Arenas saying he can now name more female college players than male players. I heard Paul Pierce and KG say the same thing on a different pod. That's a BIG problem for the long term health of the sport... I don't care what any of these moron talking heads like Jay Bilas says.

 

[Southgrad07]

Robbie has such a great connection with ISU and TH. I really hope he can think for himself in this process and not let JS’s bad decision be his decision too. The goggles, the powder blues, the Larry Bird nicknames…man it would just be legendary to stay here. 2k points in a career at a single school will be unheard of in 25 years. The legacy is here, Robbie. Let us hang your jersey!

Certainly is in his hand. He's got the outside fame and NIL deals to help offset what he could get next year from someone else. I would argue if you are trying to build his brand for future NIL deals being a loyal guy a mid major+ school with a great fanbase like ISU?? That is going to bring him more future dollars than going to be at SLU and seen as a mercenary type and finish in purgatory. If he thought crowds were loud cheering for him last yr? Watch what happens if he comes back after JS departs!

 

[isubird33]

I asked the question two months ago targeted at the Hall of Fame. Jersey retirement is a big leap above HOF Induction.
Not one person replied with objective criteria for induction.

I think 1000+ points and top 25 all time in at least two more statistical categories merits serious consideration.

Look I know things change drastically if he transfers, and the emotions behind it would be complicated to say the least.

But we do have someone that has 1000+ points, 9th most points in a single season (and all 8 above him have their numbers retired), top 15 for assists in a single season, top 15 points per game, an MVC all-freshman team, an MVC all-first team, and has two postseason appearances including an NIT runner up. The bummer of it is if he even stays another season, even if that were to be his last here at ISU, it would be a no doubter in terms of jersey retirement.

All that being said, I think there is a very clear cut, easy to make argument for Menser, Renn, Tyreke, Cooper, and Odum. Ju with another year I feel like is a no doubter considering he will be top 25 in points, top 3 in assists, and probably forever hold the Sycamore record for most games played. Kelyn, Green, Moss, some other guys could all have arguments but they all have reasons against too I guess.

If I were in charge for a day...Menser, Renn, Cooper, and Odum all get retired (plus Ju if he stays next year). Tyreke probably barely just misses the cut (probably Ju if he isn't here next year). We institute a ring of honor with Kelyn, Green, Djibril, Tyreke/Ju, Moss, Brenton, Gabe Moore, and some of the older guys get in on that.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

Robbie has such a great connection with ISU and TH. I really hope he can think for himself in this process and not let JS’s bad decision be his decision too. The goggles, the powder blues, the Larry Bird nicknames…man it would just be legendary to stay here. 2k points in a career at a single school will be unheard of in 25 years. The legacy is here, Robbie. Let us hang your jersey!

Oh fuck me… You’re now holding out hope that he stays?! Seriously…

God bless you, in the name of the father and of the son in the Holy Spirit! Amen. Love you brother but that ain’t in the cards… Our prayers to this point have not been answered.

 

[swsycamore]

Start with the All-Americans and NBA players, from the inception of the program, then the 1K+ scorers... but probably 1,500+

So, here are three names that most should merit consideration:

Charles "Butch" Wade, 2x All-American, Conf MVP, NBA draftee (NY Knicks), played some semi-pro basketball IIRC

Dick Atha... an All-American, an NBAer

Lenny Rzeszewski... NAIA R/U, All-American and NAIA Tourney MOP, drafted by the Pistons... the Fort Wayne Pistons

Sadly, any honoring would be posthumous but that shouldn't factor into the decision process

I am from the Wade era and liked him as a player but his stats don't measure up for a retired jersey. Newsom was the leader of that era.

 

[swsycamore]

Look I know things change drastically if he transfers, and the emotions behind it would be complicated to say the least.

But we do have someone that has 1000+ points, 9th most points in a single season (and all 8 above him have their numbers retired), top 15 for assists in a single season, top 15 points per game, an MVC all-freshman team, an MVC all-first team, and has two postseason appearances including an NIT runner up. The bummer of it is if he even stays another season, even if that were to be his last here at ISU, it would be a no doubter in terms of jersey retirement.

All that being said, I think there is a very clear cut, easy to make argument for Menser, Renn, Tyreke, Cooper, and Odum. Ju with another year I feel like is a no doubter considering he will be top 25 in points, top 3 in assists, and probably forever hold the Sycamore record for most games played. Kelyn, Green, Moss, some other guys could all have arguments but they all have reasons against too I guess.

If I were in charge for a day... Menser, Renn, Cooper, and Odum all get retired (plus Ju if he stays next year). Tyreke probably barely just misses the cut (probably Ju if he isn't here next year). We institute a ring of honor with Kelyn, Green, Djibril, Tyreke/Ju, Moss, Brenton, Gabe Moore, and some of the older guys get in on that. Tthe

 

[4Q_iu]

I am from the Wade era and liked him as a player but his stats don't measure up for a retired jersey. Newsom was the leader of that era.

You've fallen and cant' get up...

Butch Wade snapshot


Jerry Newsom snapshot


At graduation, Wade was the #1 scorer all-time for the Sycamores, held 4 of the Top 6 scoring marks for "Pts in a single game" today, he has 4 of the Top 24 (incl ties) marks, (2 gms w/ 43-pts, 1 with 39, 1 with 38) Newsom has 1 with 41-pts.

ISU cannot retire Newsom's without retiring Wade's.

Wade was drafted in the 7th round by the Knicks
Newsom was drafted a year later in the 6th by the Celtics

Neither played in the NBA

Your memory starting to clear??

 

[swsycamore]

You've fallen and cant' get up...

Butch Wade snapshot
View attachment 2825

Jerry Newsom snapshot
View attachment 2827

At graduation, Wade was the #1 scorer all-time for the Sycamores, held 4 of the Top 6 scoring marks for "Pts in a single game" today, he has 4 of the Top 24 (incl ties) marks, (2 gms w/ 43-pts, 1 with 39, 1 with 38) Newsom has 1 with 41-pts.

ISU can retire Newsom's w/ with retiring Wade's.

Wade was drafted in the 7th round by the Knicks
Newsom drafted a year later in the 6th by the Celtics

Neither played in the NBA

Your memory starting to clear??

Go back and look at Jason's post from March 20. You won't find Wade's name on any of the lists. How about your memory?

 

[4Q_iu]

Go back and look at Jason's post from March 20. You won't find Wade's name on any of the lists. How about your memory?

Pretty sure Jason DOESN'T craft the criteria for ISU to retire jerseys/jersey ##s... but please tell me WHERE Wade in on this list?

A small hint, he's AHEAD of Key, Odum, Moss and Barnes.



When he graduated, he was first in scoring, most FGs (610), most FTs (422), most points in a game (43) first in rebounding (540), 20th today.
He was third in pt/gms avg, today he's 4th.

You should really start gobbling the Prevagen

 

[swsycamore]

Pretty sure Jason DOESN'T craft the criteria for ISU to retire jerseys/jersey ##s... but please tell me WHERE Wade in on this list?

A small hint, he's AHEAD of Key, Odum, Moss and Barnes.

View attachment 2829

When he graduated, he was third in rebounding, 20th today.
He was third in pt/gms avg, today he's 4th.

You should really start gobbling the Prevagen

One list! Take a look at all of the lists. 20th and 45th are not good enough to have a jersey retired.

 

[4Q_iu]

One list! Take a look at all of the lists. 20th and 45th are not good enough to have a jersey retired.

You do understand that he can't improve his standings AFTER he's graduated - right?
You judge him where he stood on the career lists at the time he graduated, not today.

He's one of 9 All-Americans in 125+ years of ISU basketball.
He's on the "ISU All-Century Team"
He's one of 5 ISU players who've won a Conf MVP award (Roger Adkins, Butch Wade, Jerry Newsom, Larry Bird and Nate Green)
He was a 3-time All-Conference 1st team player
He scored MORE than Key, Moss, Odum and Barnes - he did it 3 varsity seasons and did NOT have the "benefit" of the 3-point shot.

and

He's 4th, as in '1', '2', '3' '4' in ppg, NOT 45th. Again, please - take the Prevagen

 

[IndyTreeFan]

Not to step in it here, but I’ve been doing that all day, so what the hell…

IMHO, minimum criteria should be All-America honors, National Player of the Year, or star player on a Final Four team.

No one since JSW should have their jersey retired. You want to honor other players? Create a “Ring of Honor” type club.

Then, you can have Athletic Hall of Fame, Basketball Ring of Honor, Jersey retirement, in order of least to most prestige. I mean, they’re all prestigious, but that way you have a way to honor players like some of the 2000/2001/2011 teams that doesn’t dilute jersey retirement. Jersey retirement should be done rarely, only for the very, very best.

 

[4Q_iu]

Not to step in it here, but I’ve been doing that all day, so what the hell…

IMHO, minimum criteria should be All-America honors, National Player of the Year, or star player on a Final Four team.

No one since JSW should have their jersey retired. You want to honor other players? Create a “Ring of Honor” type club.

Then, you can have Athletic Hall of Fame, Basketball Ring of Honor, Jersey retirement, in order of least to most prestige. I mean, they’re all prestigious, but that way you have a way to honor players like some of the 2000/2001/2011 teams that doesn’t dilute jersey retirement. Jersey retirement should be done rarely, only for the very, very best.

One of those three as minimum... All-American OR National PoY OR Lead team to Final Four (NCAA? NIT? not CIB or CiT or Future Faux Vegas Tourney...) - correct?

 

[IndyTreeFan]

One of those three as minimum... All-American OR National PoY OR Lead team to Final Four (NCAA? NIT? not CIB or CiT or Future Faux Vegas Tourney...) - correct?

You are correct. And it’s NCAA Final Four.

 

[CoachShipp]

Dallas Cowboys originated the "Ring of Honor" back in the 70's. Several all-time great and Hall of Fame players are honored therein. But Dallas doesn't actually retire anyone's number....there have been Hall of Famers Chuck Howley and Randy White wear #54, Emmitt Smith and Bob Hayes wear #22, and Michael Irvin and Drew Pearson wore #88...these numbers can/have been worn by current players as well. But, I suspect it will be a cold day in hell before anyone wears Roger Staubach's #12 or Bob Lilly's #74.

 

[isubird33]

You do understand that he can't improve his standings AFTER he's graduated - right?
You judge him where he stood on the career lists at the time he graduated, not today.

He's one of 9 All-Americans in 125+ years of ISU basketball.
He's on the "ISU All-Century Team"
He's one of 5 ISU players who've won a Conf MVP award (Roger Adkins, Butch Wade, Jerry Newsom, Larry Bird and Nate Green)
He was a 3-time All-Conference 1st team player
He scored MORE than Key, Moss, Odum and Barnes - he did it 3 varsity seasons and did NOT have the "benefit" of the 3-point shot.

and

He's 4th, as in '1', '2', '3' '4' in ppg, NOT 45th. Again, please - take the Prevagen

All super valid...I do think that's slightly ignoring that it was DII though. DI vs D2 stats have to carry some weight. Kind of like how NCAA titles pre-1970, and especially any pre-1950 are vastly different than any today.

 

[4Q_iu]

All super valid...I do think that's slightly ignoring that it was DII though. DI vs D2 stats have to carry some weight. Kind of like how NCAA titles pre-1970, and especially any pre-1950 are vastly different than any today.

soooo... you're of the belief that D2 plays with a different sized basketball.... shoots at a 8.5 ft goal, on a court that is only 85 feet long and 40 feet wide - correct?

IF you're going to slice and dice basketball in your manner, get your basic facts correct.

Newsom (retired ##) and Wade played in the College Division, today's it's called D2 but the Trees of that era played far more Div I teams than D2 teams play today.

You're the first person to categorize NCAA titles into eras -- what's that thinking?

Certainly, no school with titles from each of the era(s) you outline categorize them in that manner.

Curious to your "math" on Div 1 "weighing" more than Div 2...

Will you be petitioning to put Newsom's #41 and Klueh's #54 BACK into circulation? Neither played in today's era of Div I MBB... Course, neither did Larry Bird, Carl Nicks or John Sherman Williams - guess you believe ALL should be unretired and issued next season...

 

[isubird33]

soooo... you're of the belief that D2 plays with a different sized basketball.... shoots at a 8.5 ft goal, on a court that is only 85 feet long and 40 feet wide - correct?

IF you're going to slice and dice basketball in your manner, get your basic facts correct.

Newsom (retired ##) and Wade played in the College Division, today's it's called D2 but the Trees of that era played as far more Div I team than D2 teams play today.

You're the first person to categorize NCAA titles into eras -- what's that thinking?

Certainly, no school with titles from each of the era(s) you outline categorize them in that manner.

Curious to your "math" on Div 1 "weighing" more than Div 2...

Will you petitioning to put Newsom's #41 and Klueh's #54 BACK into circulation? Neither played in today's era of Div I MBB... Course, neither did Larry Bird, Carl Nicks or John Sherman Williams - guess you believe ALL should be unretired and issued next season...

I mean for one, D1 is a different level of competition than D2. D1 is the top level. It's the same reason the 4A state title is bigger/more important than the 1A title. It's definitely fair to respect the records and stats of people that played in a different level of competition, but 1,500 points against competition as a D2 team in like 1962 is pretty different than 1,500 points as a D1 team against the top level of competition in 1979, 2001, or 2024.

But plenty of people categorize NCAA titles into eras. It's like...a constant conversation online. One of the great pastimes of college sports is debating eras and how goofy some of the past eras are. I think there are NCAA football titles from the early days where like, 5 different teams claim the national title.

Even the wiki page breaks the NCAA tournament into "early era" "pre-modern era" and "modern era". Pre-1970 you still had teams opting out of the NCAA tourney to play in the NIT. Pre-1950 it was like 8 teams, top teams missing the tournament, and the basketball/football/baseball coach also taught history and drove the team bus. Lots of people also use cutoffs like 1975 (at larges introduced), 1979 (full seeding as well as television and national attention truly taking off), or even 1985 (modern era, 64 teams, no byes).

And Bird, Nicks, Williams all did play in the top level at the time. The same top level D1 that is here today. It may look way different now, but it was still the top level at the time.

 

[4Q_iu]

I mean for one, D1 is a different level of competition than D2. D1 is the top level. It's the same reason the 4A state title is bigger/more important than the 1A title. It's definitely fair to respect the records and stats of people that played in a different level of competition, but 1,500 points against competition as a D2 team in like 1962 is pretty different than 1,500 points as a D1 team against the top level of competition in 1979, 2001, or 2024.

But plenty of people categorize NCAA titles into eras. It's like...a constant conversation online. One of the great pastimes of college sports is debating eras and how goofy some of the past eras are. I think there are NCAA football titles from the early days where like, 5 different teams claim the national title.

Even the wiki page breaks the NCAA tournament into "early era" "pre-modern era" and "modern era". Pre-1970 you still had teams opting out of the NCAA tourney to play in the NIT. Pre-1950 it was like 8 teams, top teams missing the tournament, and the basketball/football/baseball coach also taught history and drove the team bus. Lots of people also use cutoffs like 1975 (at larges introduced), 1979 (full seeding as well as television and national attention truly taking off), or even 1985 (modern era, 64 teams, no byes).

And Bird, Nicks, Williams all did play in the top level at the time. The same top level D1 that is here today. It may look way different now, but it was still the top level at the time.

So... in all that blather, you are advocating that ISU UNRETIRE Jerry Newsom's and Duane Klueh's ## - correct?

After all, as you point out - they didn't play at the Highest Level At That Time...

 

[4Q_iu]

Two of Wade's peers ON Wade


https://www.therepublic.com/2018/09/18/former_north_basketball_great_remembered_as_icon/