New member, first post

sycamore tuff

The All-MVC Level
I'm a new member to this board, but a long time sycamore fan. I have been watching both men's basketball and football in person since 1979. I remember thinking as a high school senior, ISU was going to be such fun as I watched on TV all the paper that had to be swept off the floor early at all the home games. Football was great that year(1979), with the exciting offense Dick Jaimason put on the field. I sure have seen a lot of losing over the years since then. I, however, have never lost my enthusiasm for either sport. I must somehow be related to Chicago Cubs fans, with the wait till next year attitude.
The name I chose for this board represents the attitude I hope all sycamore athletes will choose for themselves and their teams.

Sycamore Tuff
 

new sycamore fan

The All-MVC Level
Welcome Tuff. I'm sure you've seen a lot over the years. Hopefully you're still going to the games--good things will happen in the next couple of years for both programs.
 

sycamore tuff

The All-MVC Level
Yes, I have seen a lot and I still go to as many games as my work schedule allows me to. I remember in basketball Johnny Edwards scoring 35 points twice in the same season (Tulsa and Minnesota), John Ssherman Williams throwing the ball to no one against De Paul, Eddie Bird getting clotheslined at half court and not getting the call Tates Locke throwing out an F bomb at one of the players for calling a time out. The place was quiet so everyone else who was there heard it also. In football I was there when we lost to Tulsa and Middle Tennessee State. I was also there with 17,000 other fans when we played Louisville. Yes, we lost that game but payback at there homecoming (1984 I think) was sweet.
I am excited about the football team. I may be overoptimistic, but I have them scheduled for a conference championship in 2011.
 

HoopMaster

The Varsity Level
Welcome Tuff, its a pretty decent board. Some strong opinions, but poeple wouldnt post if they didnt care. Look forward to your input here !
 

treefromafar

The Sycamore Level
Welcome Tuff. I too have been going to games for a long time. Saw Larry a few times in college, saw John Sherman Williams, and even played intramurals against Eddie Bird when we were both freshman, as he sat out as Prop 48 his first year. Was friends with Ron Cheatham then, too. Hope we can get back to better days soon. We have to have faith and trust in McKenna and his staff that they are putting together something special. Doesn't look like much now, but have faith.:sycamores:
 

HoopMaster

The Varsity Level
Isnt John Sherman Williams now the one doing promotions at the ISU games?......................ok, bad attempt at a joke.
 

TJames

The JSW Level
ahhhh...the memories.....

just the name of johnny edwards brings back memories....such as the time he robbed a pizza guy at rhodes hall and then took the pizza over to dr. landini at condit house around 3 a.m., asking him if he wanted some....but johnny could sure play...he was man against boys...just couldnt stay out of trouble, acadmically or off the court....

or richard johnson (the 7-foot center) getting into an argument with his girlfriend and trying to trash her car. when she called campus police, he took off and tried to hide...under a car. unfortunately, it was a vw and his head and feet were sticking out at each end. it was pretty easy to find him. lol

or how about when there was the fight with wichita state at hulman center. the sycamorss were forced to play 4 on 5 for the second half of the game because everybody else had been thrown out for either fighting or coming off the bench. and isu almost won the game because jimmie holliday poured in something like 35 points in a valiant effort.

or when isu fans threw toilet paper....not the loose kind but rolls of it...into the depaul huddle at hulman center. joey meyer wasnt too happy about that.

or when one of the isu players died of a heart attack in practice at the isu arena. that was a sad day.

ah yes...john sherman williiams...the paint man....i came up with that term...lol.....sports illustrated came to town and took pictures of him in a painters cap and uniform for a preview of the missouri valley conference....we said that he "painted" the glass...and with a name like john sherman william (sherwin williams paint, lol, get it)....

eddie bird....if he would have just worked half as hard as his older brother did....he would have ended up in the nba...he had talent...but didnt work as hard at it....

mark golden....could take a charge on anybody....even when it looked funky...and almost always got the call...lol....

rick fields, travis inman, darrion applewhite, chris harris, ron cheatham, darren liles, terry braun, ken bannister (another man against boys left isu after being there a short time, a juco kid and wound up playing in the nba with the knicks), winfred king, danny king, jeff lauritzen, jimmy cruse, kenny rowan is just a partial list of the guys that i had the opportunity to see when i worked there...

and the coaches....tates locke (was thrown out of a home game for throwing his wallet onto tthe court at a referee..."you might as well take it all!!!"...and compared the official, an hispanic man, to the guys who died at the alamo)...ron greene, dave schellhause, sherman dillard.

i really liked tates through. he was good to me while he was there. tates just loved to mix it up too much. he couldnt stand for things to be running too smoothly. he had to do something or say something to upset the apple cart.

ron was a hautian, but his ego was as big as the grand canyon. he thought that he was too good for isu. you should have seen his office at hulman center and some of mega expensive furnture he had in there. wow.

it was interesting when a couple of his assistant coaches got into an argument (fight) in the basketball offices one day.

i liked dillard most of the time. i do know that he wasnt happy that he had to share the isu arena or hulman center with the women's basketball program. that caused a lot of furror during the time that he spent there. and making his summer basketball camp share a pamphlet with the women's summer camp???? wow. should have heard the language about that.

i felt sorry for shellhause. had a problem that he just couldn't beat. hopefully he's gotten past that by now. i loved his comment about playing defense..."they still count the winner by how many points YOU score, don't they?"....lol....so it was run and gun all the way.

well, those are just some of my recallections. maybe i should write a book about what i saw and heard over the years at isu....lol......
 

TJames

The JSW Level
and what could have been....

did you know that isu, at one time or another, interviewed steve alford, mike brey, steve robinson for the head basketball coach's job?

alford was the overwhelming pick of the selection committee, supposedly, but when he wanted to bring his dad in as his primary assistant coach, the higher ups balked. this is when alford was the head coach at manchester college and before he went to southwest missouri state (now missouri state). and we know how all that turned out. lol....
 

HoopMaster

The Varsity Level
Sure looks like the Womens team will be getting irritated with the mess the men leave on the court after they play........
 

IndyTreeFan

The Nicks Level
Supporter
did you know that isu, at one time or another, interviewed steve alford, mike brey, steve robinson for the head basketball coach's job?

alford was the overwhelming pick of the selection committee, supposedly, but when he wanted to bring his dad in as his primary assistant coach, the higher ups balked. this is when alford was the head coach at manchester college and before he went to southwest missouri state (now missouri state). and we know how all that turned out. lol....
Tom, I knew the story about Alford, but I didn't know that we'd interviewed the other guys. Wow! To be that close to some fantastic coaches and miss out every time. Since you've been around (and in) it, what's your feeling as to why we hired the wrong guy every time up to Waltman???
 

treefromafar

The Sycamore Level
did you know that isu, at one time or another, interviewed steve alford, mike brey, steve robinson for the head basketball coach's job?

alford was the overwhelming pick of the selection committee, supposedly, but when he wanted to bring his dad in as his primary assistant coach, the higher ups balked. this is when alford was the head coach at manchester college and before he went to southwest missouri state (now missouri state). and we know how all that turned out. lol....
Heard about the alford thing, didn't know about the others. The trouble with talking to guys like this I've discussed before on other posts. To get up and comers like this, you have to know, and be OK with, ISU being a stepping stone. First of all, as has been previously discussed, this is not an ideal situation for any coach due to many factors we've previously discussed (recruiting, community, facilities, etc.). Plus, you throw in the money ISU pays it's coaches, and that guarantees that any of these individuals who have aspirations of upper level D-1 will be gone quickly if they are successfull here. With all this said, our hopes have to be that our choice for coach has aspirations to build a mid level program and ride it out, ala Dana Altman. All though, Dana Altman is playing in a 18,000 seat arena, and getting paid 7 figures. I hate to keep coming back to money, but when McKenna gets a total package of $250 K per year, and Altman and Lowery at SIU get 7 figures, how does he or we compete? I will give you Altman, and even Lowery for that matter, have more experience, but there is no way McKenna will make anywhere near that money here. And it's not just his salary. It's the chump change we are paying assistants, and the paltry budget the whole program has to operate under compared to these other schools. This, in my opinion, is why you will see us continue to struggle to maintain consistent success. By consistent, I mean more than 2 or 3 years. I mean a 5 - 10 year run of upper division MVC finishes, with frequent post season appearances.
 

SydCamore

The Captain Level
Tom, I knew the story about Alford, but I didn't know that we'd interviewed the other guys. Wow! To be that close to some fantastic coaches and miss out every time. Since you've been around (and in) it, what's your feeling as to why we hired the wrong guy every time up to Waltman???
Indy,

By "up to Waltman", are you suggesting he was a good hire?

Yeah, he did well with Dillard's players.
 

IndyTreeFan

The Nicks Level
Supporter
Indy,

By "up to Waltman", are you suggesting he was a good hire?

Yeah, he did well with Dillard's players.
Yes, I'm suggesting he was a good hire. And yes, Greene and Menser were Dillard's players. Dillard couldn't have beaten a Boys Club team with them. Someone had to coach them. Matt Renn, Kelyn Block, Djbril Kante, Marcus Howard, David Moss, Gabe Moore were some pretty good players that Royce signed.

Look, the man could coach. He went 3-3 against IU. He consistently beat Big 10 teams that would venture into Hulman Center, and he beat Butler consistently. He led the team to consecutive NCAA appearances, beating Oklahoma. Say what you want, but the man could coach, particularly if you want to talk in relative terms for Indiana State. Call me crazy, but recruiting was never a problem until he got cancer. Once that happened, the recruiting fell off. Coincidence? Possibly, but I doubt it. When that happened, he couldn't physically be involved as much for a year or two in the recruiting of players, and that's when the talent level dropped. After the cancer was over, and before he was fired, the recruiting had started to pick up again.

Matt Renn said it before they fired Waltman, "Indiana State isn't going to get a better coach..."
 

TJames

The JSW Level
my thoughts.....

i wasn't around when royce was the head coach, but i did keep in touch with the people who were there working with him and who covered him media-wise. everything, for the most part, that i heard about royce was good. sure, he had a temper and at times he would let people have it between the eyes. there is a certain sports writer from indy who got blasted by royce for a story that he wrote. still, i liked the job he did early on.

as for doing it with so-and-so's kids, so what? that is such an overused complaint. the kids might have been there, but somebody had to draw up the game plan, somebody had to do the daily coaching, somebody had to do the game preparation.

by that measure, jon gruden won the super bowl for tampa with dungy's guys. ken whisenhut has led arizona to the super bowl with dennis green's guys. mike tomlin is winning in pittsburgh with bill cowher's guys.

but then wade phillips is struggling in dallas with bill parcell's guys. and tony sparano is winning in miami with cam cameron's guys. you can have all the talent in the world, but its what you do with it. and royce, at least early on, won with it.

as for an earlier mention about payrolls, isu has annually paid its coaches much less than other schools in the gateway conference and missouri valley conference. if not for raetz having great ties with other coaches around the country, isu wouldn't have gotten the quality of assistants that he had for most of his time as the head football coach. they came to work for dennis for much less pay that they would have gotten at other schools. and most of those assistants left several years later when they were offered better deals someplace else.

here's one for you. a very successful local girls high school softball coach once turned down the head coaching job at isu because he made more money at the high school than what he would have gotten in terre haute. he would have taken a paycut to go from high school to college. strange eh?

let's hope ron prettyman and dr. bradley can improve the salaries for isu coaches across the board.
 

bent20

The Odum Level
Alford did well at SW Mo. but has been a mediocre coach at best since then. There is no way to be sure he would have been any good at ISU. He's also made some questionable ethical decisions - Pierre Pierce. People in Iowa still can't stand Alford.
 

IndyTreeFan

The Nicks Level
Supporter
Alford did well at SW Mo. but has been a mediocre coach at best since then. There is no way to be sure he would have been any good at ISU. He's also made some questionable ethical decisions - Pierre Pierce. People in Iowa still can't stand Alford.
Most Missouri State fans cannot stand him, either...:evileye:
 

TJames

The JSW Level
what???? alford mediocre????? never!!!!...lol

now that is something people in indiana can't say is it??? alford....mediocre????....why he's a former mr. basketball!!!.....an former iu star!!!!....led the hoosiers to the ncaa title!!!!.....a living legend....for shame!!!!!...lol.......

why people wanted him to be the next coach at iu instead of tom crean!!!!....lol.....mr. perfect!!!!...lol.....heck, pacers fans booed when they took reggie miller instead of drafting alford......
 

SydCamore

The Captain Level
Indy,

By "up to Waltman", are you suggesting he was a good hire?

Yeah, he did well with Dillard's players.
Just to clarify,

I'm not suggesting that Royce was a bad Coach. He was the best coach we have had in a while. That being said, I think he was a tremendous "big game" coach and a good X's and O's guy. What bothered me about him was that it seemed as though we always started well and then got killed in conference play.

Hey, some of my favorite memories at ISU were when Royce was coaching. It was time for a change though.
 

Daveinth

The Wade Level
Supporter
Just to clarify,

I'm not suggesting that Royce was a bad Coach. He was the best coach we have had in a while. That being said, I think he was a tremendous "big game" coach and a good X's and O's guy. What bothered me about him was that it seemed as though we always started well and then got killed in conference play.

Hey, some of my favorite memories at ISU were when Royce was coaching. It was time for a change though.
I agree Royce was a good x and o coach and played all the major confrence teams tough . He also had some bad luck in the mix Moss going down with the injury really hurt what could have been a very good team. HELL WE EVEN GOT BEAT BY A HOT DOG ANYBODY REMEMBER THAT???
 
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