Washington Football Team

4Q_iu

The Nicks Level
Supporter
Will the announcement from lil' Danny Snyder wrt the past nickname of the Washington Football Team end the discussion on this board of resurrecting the 1968-1989 ISU live "mascots?"

Will it be the "jenga piece" that leads to the renaming of teams in Cleveland, Atlanta, Chicago and Kansas City?
 

Jason Svoboda

The Bird Level
Administrator
I've long been conflicted on this topic. The sad thing is that outside of some token history lessons in grade school, the only remembrance of Native Americans is through those very sports team names. Once they're gone, the eradication will be complete.

Whats more, I believe most sports teams that use an Indian moniker often work with and provide financial assistance to Indian populations. Once they they go anti-Indian, I'd assume those funding streams are done. I hope those groups have made appropriate financial plans. For example, one article I read said the Synder had the Washington Redskins Original Americans Foundation where it donated to multiple tribes. Once I change to the Washington Fourth Downs, I'm dissolving that foundation and putting that money back into my pocket. I'm sure it was only a couple million a year, but for a terribly impoverished population, I bet every dollar counts.
 

Jason Svoboda

The Bird Level
Administrator
Also, I find it hilarious that Kansas City has said Chiefs is not Indian-based but rather named after a guy named Big Chief. The irony is the Bartle dude was called Chief by his boy scout tribe that he himself founded with Indian teachings. Nevermind the freaking arrowhead for the logo.

Braves also said they had no intentions to change.
 

4Q_iu

The Nicks Level
Supporter
I've never been conflicted by the fight over 'Redskins' -- it's a slur, maybe not to all but to some. It's also different than Braves, Black Hawks, Indians and Chiefs... I think for many, it's not that ATL, CHI, CLE or KC use those names but that they ramp of the iconography, the chanting, drum beating, etc We as a nation accept, condon, embrace and encourage those acts in relation to those teams. Would we do that for other groups, be they religious or ethnic?

I recall some outcry when the Cleveland Indians stopped/dropped the caricature of "Wahoo Joe" but I'd venture for many, they agreed with, supported that decision. Atlanta hasn't used their former "Screaming Brave" logo since the late 1980s, albeit it made a brief appearance as a batting practice jersey about ten years ago... It was far more respectful than the Wahoo Joe logo but there was an outcry when it appeared.

I don't recall any outrage over Florida $tate's usage of Chief Osceloa; probably because the university did work with the Florida Seminole Nation, (not the Oklahoma Seminole Nation) AND that F$U provides some support to the Florida Seminole Nation. Also thinking F$U was doing it before the NCAA crafted their directives.

I disagree on your contention that the only remembrance of the American Indians is via those franchises; 26 of the U.S. States names originate in American Indian languages; dozens, hundreds of Counties, Townships, Towns, Cities do as well.

Piper Aircraft uses the official name of many American Indian Nations for their aircraft model names; i.e. Piper PA-31 "Navajo" Many of the helicopters used across our Armed Forces are also named for several American Indian Nations, i.e. Bell HE-13 "Sioux" (think M*A*S*H) or the Boeing CH-47 "Chinook"

If your contention comes to pass, I won't lay the blame on the renaming of Lil' Danny Snyder's football team but rather on those individuals who aren't remembering the American Indian.

Here's a site for future interest: https://indiancountrytoday.com/

Another source: https://www.americanindianmagazine.org/issues/summer-2020

Though I will caution you -- if you visit the Museum of the American Indian; keep in mind the wealthier, more powerful Indian Nations got the premium space...
 
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Jason Svoboda

The Bird Level
Administrator
If we're going that route, it could be argued that the token naming of States and aircraft is no different and was done out of guilt/festishing over respect but point taken. This isn't my fight but when I've done readings, it always sounded like there was a vocal minority that wanted it changed. I think a better solution would have been to bring Indian leadership to Washington and have a think tank on how to aptly rename the team and still pay homage.

People remember what is put in front of them, especially in today's society. In any event, the Washington football club sucks and I just hope the Bear population doesn't get together and demand my Chicago football club change its name. Then we have problems.
 

4Q_iu

The Nicks Level
Supporter
If we're going that route, it could be argued that the token naming of States and aircraft is no different and was done out of guilt/festishing over respect but point taken. This isn't my fight but when I've done readings, it always sounded like there was a vocal minority that wanted it changed. I think a better solution would have been to bring Indian leadership to Washington and have a think tank on how to aptly rename the team and still pay homage.

People remember what is put in front of them, especially in today's society. In any event, the Washington football club sucks and I just hope the Bear population doesn't get together and demand my Chicago football club change its name. Then we have problems.
Fair points but IMO there's a world of difference between naming anything using an epithet vs. a correct/proper name or an autonym. I mentioned a light aircraft built by Piper Air... the Navaho, I guess Piper should have used the name the Navaho use for themselves ( Diné or Naabeehó )

However the U.S. did use the correct name with the two Dakota states; while many know those sub-tribes as the Sioux. IIRC, Sioux is either Crow or Ojibwe for 'enemy'; that tidbit made the name fight @ Univ. No. Dakota VERY ironic -- the American Indians were protesting use of a name that they don't readily acknowledge

I suppose if Snyder had been more open minded, he would have approached some of the American Indian tribes of the Eastern Virginia, Chesapeake Bay area, used their name ala Fla $tate.

I've never lost sleep over the issue -- just surprising given Snyder's past ardent stance on it... Though if either team in NYC were named using a Jewish slur, Snyder would be going @pesh*t.

my biggest issue has been the incorrect usage of symbols, iconography, etc... as with our former mascot. The American Indians that lived in the Wabash Valley did NOT dress like Chief Ouabache was dressed. And I've always shaken my head that we ADD an American Indian mascot (1968) when colleges were first beginning to drop that very usage... Guessing we lagged behind the "norm" then
 

BrokerZ

The JSW Level
Supporter
Nicknames and mascots are kind of silly when you really think about it. Why does the Washington D.C. NFL team need a nickname or a mascot anyway? Other than “because tradition,” I can’t think of a logical argument for them actauly needing a nickname. Take a note from the EPL and just be the Washington Football Club, or something like that. Let the nicknames happen organically (like the Arsenal “Gunners” or the West Ham “Hammers”) to where you have no official association with it. It’s the only way to stave off criticism in the long term anyway.
 

Jason Svoboda

The Bird Level
Administrator
Nicknames and mascots are kind of silly when you really think about it. Why does the Washington D.C. NFL team need a nickname or a mascot anyway? Other than “because tradition,” I can’t think of a logical argument for them actauly needing a nickname. Take a note from the EPL and just be the Washington Football Club, or something like that. Let the nicknames happen organically (like the Arsenal “Gunners” or the West Ham “Hammers”) to where you have no official association with it. It’s the only way to stave off criticism in the long term anyway.
Marketing. Sort of like pro sports playing the National Anthem, it's origin story and what it turned into. Everything is to put asses in the seats and pry another buck out of their wallets.

That is the one thing I never understood with them holding out from changing it. You're essentially going to have your entire fan base turn over their gear provided you come out with something aesthetically pleasing or well designed.
 
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4Q_iu

The Nicks Level
Supporter
Nicknames and mascots are kind of silly when you really think about it. Why does the Washington D.C. NFL team need a nickname or a mascot anyway? Other than “because tradition,” I can’t think of a logical argument for them actauly needing a nickname. Take a note from the EPL and just be the Washington Football Club, or something like that. Let the nicknames happen organically (like the Arsenal “Gunners” or the West Ham “Hammers”) to where you have no official association with it. It’s the only way to stave off criticism in the long term anyway.
I'd say that the NBA, NHL, NFL all took a page from the early days of the MLB; most of the charter franchises in today's AL were simply called 'Americans' by many news sources because they were in the American League (vice the National League); the same is true for college, go back to the 1880s, 1890s when football was the college sport and teams were know as the "men of X college" or "flying school color"

I doubt the NFL would sign off on a Washington Football Club; that's a soccer issue -- the MLS's latest expansion clubs are all FC or SC or CF in the case of Miami 2.0

Snyder's decision was truly one of $$$; keep in mind FedEx (and the minority owners Smith), Nike, Wal-Mart, Amazon et al were all putting the $$$ squeeze on Lil' Danny S.

He's looking at KEEPING the $$ he has vice trying to make more. He's spent 20-years running that franchise in the ground; I've heard stories of the Washington ticket office calling LONG TIME ticket holders to renew, enticing them with additional tickets, etc.

A new nickname won't bring back fans they way winning will but it will sell new gear to the willing
 

4Q_iu

The Nicks Level
Supporter
he certainly has the $$ but he may be too "outspoken" of a personality to gain membership into the NFL Club
 
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