# Stuff We Don't Like to Talk About



## garyd63

This hardly ever happens, right!?!



> New York Times
> October 28, 2010
> Binghamton Coach Gets $1.2 Million to Resign
> By PETE THAMEL
> 
> The tumultuous tenure of Kevin Broadus, the coach who oversaw the Binghamton basketball program’s first N.C.A.A. tournament berth and also its subsequent implosion, has ended.
> 
> On Thursday, the university announced that Broadus had received a $1.2 million settlement to resign from the university. Binghamton’s president, C. Peter Magrath, said that Broadus would receive $819,115 from the Binghamton athletic department and that $380,884 would be paid by the State University of New York.
> 
> The payment, which exceeds the value of Broadus’s remaining contract, requires him to withdraw the racial discrimination lawsuit he filed in March and to relinquish his right to any other claims against the university. . . .
> 
> Broadus’s departure with $1.2 million has left many uneasy.
> 
> “It shows you where our priorities are,” said Bruce Svare, a psychology professor at SUNY Albany. “They certainly aren’t in terms of academic integrity and trying to get to the truth. It’s very upsetting and disappointing.” . . .


And more here:



> The payout comes at a time when SUNY's budget is strapped after $210 million in cuts this year, resulting in SUNY Albany's recent removal of several programs, and Zimpher being pressured to surrender her housing allowance and criticized for handing out $30,000 raises to her top administrators.


http://www.pressconnects.com/articl...0476/Magrath++We+ll+move+money+to+pay+Broadus


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## garyd63

And the beat goes on.  You lose when you lose and you lose when you win.  So now we can add a new phrase to our policy/process hip conversations.  “Win-win” situations  can be tempered with “lose-lose” realities.  At least when it comes to the Big Buck College Athletic programs.



> NYT  November 11, 2010
> How Broken Must College Football Be to Fix It? By GEORGE VECSEY
> 
> It is time for my annual foray into the lower depths of higher education — that is to say, the business of Bowl Championship Series football as perpetrated on or near centers of learning. . . .
> 
> My theory is, when a university suddenly becomes proficient at football or basketball, it is usually a sign its admissions director is being held hostage in some rural hideaway.
> 
> But this is worse. The B.C.S. system turns out to be a private enterprise for the usual suspects in the insider conferences. The top colleges make money, but the big winners are the major bowls — and the administrators thereof.
> 
> According to the _Sports Illustrated_ article, Paul Hoolahan, the top executive of the Sugar Bowl, made $607,500 in 2007 and the Sugar Bowl was given $3 million by the hard-strapped Louisiana government.
> 
> The big losers are the lucky tigers who get invited to the Cement Shoes Bowl and then lose money that could have gone to athletes *or, even better, budding physicists or linguists or cellists and other potential assets to society.*[my emphasis]
> 
> The same article points out that Virginia Tech and the Atlantic Coast Conference had to purchase 17,500 tickets at $125 each for the 2009 Orange Bowl, but sold only 3,342, for a loss of $1.77 million — surely worth it for a marginal inclusion into Our Thing, as the B.C.S. could be called.
> 
> The latest Heisman mess and the B.C.S. shakedown have led me to reconsider my long-held position — “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” — about bowl games and the national championship. . . .
> 
> As it is now, only the anointed championship bowl game is worth a glance. And the old concern about keeping the lads from their classrooms and laboratories seems laughable at this stage.
> 
> Full article here:  http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/12/sports/ncaafootball/12vecsey.html


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## Sackalot

I doubt that many would argue that the BCS is a mess and it has resulted in a multitude poor decisions.  ISU is not a BCS school...so this is somewhat irrelevant.  Bowls are broken...back in the day the were great and fun, the Orange Bowl the Rose Bowl, etc.  They were all on New Years Day and it was fun, they weren't ridiculous and so numerous that everyone got confused.  

I think that the BCS is stupid.  I hate the fact that the National Champion is decided....on January 4 or 5 or even later.  It is stupid.  I hate the fact that there are soo many bowls.  I hate the fact that tickets are soooo expensive.  I hate a lot of things about it. But, and it is a big but!!  We are talking about 30-40 schools (if that) and there are hundreds and hundreds of schools out there that have nothing to do with this crap...and ISU is one of those.  

Corruption is what is brought forth in this article and I do agree it is probably happening because it always happens.  Lets not bring up the corruption that occurs within research circles.  The millions upon millions of dollars in grants and funding that is misused, misappropriated and "stolen" by researchers in an effort to supposedly study something that is just not useful to society either!!  Point is this, corruption exists in many forms and across many different areas...on a college campus, in society, gov't, etc.  There is no question that corruption exists in the BCS....but there is corruption everywhere.  Those that are in control of the BCS should be brought to the fire for their poor decisions and those that are corrupt in other areas should also be brought to the fire.


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## garyd63

> Corruption is what is brought forth in this article and I do agree it is probably happening because it always happens. Lets not bring up the corruption that occurs within research circles. The millions upon millions of dollars in grants and funding that is misused, misappropriated and "stolen" by researchers in an effort to supposedly study something that is just not useful to society either!! Point is this, corruption exists in many forms and across many different areas...on a college campus, in society, gov't, etc. There is no question that corruption exists in the BCS....but there is corruption everywhere. Those that are in control of the BCS should be brought to the fire for their poor decisions and those that are corrupt in other areas should also be brought to the fire.



Couldn't agree more, Sackalot.  Start a thread on the specifics of these forms of corruption and waste if you want.  They're irrelevant to what I'm bringing up--corruption and waste, monetary and human, in *college sports*.


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## garyd63

Here’s an interesting item. I think we can all agree we don’t discuss women’s soccer nearly enough on this forum–except indirectly, when the GPAs of college athletes are being figured.  Anyway, what do you think?  Smart coaching, good for amateur athletics (sic), or another example of the slippery slope to full tilt professionalism in college sports?



> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/19/sports/soccer/19seminoles.html?_r=1&ref=sports
> 
> November 18, 2010
> After Reprimand, College Coach Receives Support From Soccer Peers
> By JERÉ LONGMAN
> 
> The Florida State women’s soccer team will play Saturday for a berth in the quarterfinals of the N.C.A.A. tournament, having made a provocative tactical decision that raised intriguing questions about sportsmanship, integrity and the autonomy of a coach to choose a lineup. . . .


And if you don’t get around to reading this article, here’s a one paragraph takeaway that updates the sorry financial situation of college sports.



> The debate is whether conference tournaments are necessary competitive events or primarily a means to provide additional financing and television showcases at a time when the vast majority of colleges are losing money on athletics. Only 14 of the nation’s 120 major athletic departments reported making a profit in the 2008-09 school year, according to the N.C.A.A.


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## Callmedoc

Gary I was just wondering...since you said my accusations of professors harassing football players, "was ridiculous and False"



> It got so bad for Sycamore football that Miles had to file complaints against professors for making fun of players in class, he said.
> 
> “I’ve had to complain to the administration about professors laughing at our players,” Miles said. “So anytime you can help these young men get in a situation where they’re enjoying their college experience now … that’s what it’s all about.”


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## 4Q_iu

garyd63 said:


> Here’s an interesting item. I think we can all agree we don’t discuss women’s soccer nearly enough on this forum–except indirectly, when the GPAs of college athletes are being figured.  Anyway, what do you think?  Smart coaching, good for amateur athletics (sic), or another example of the slippery slope to full tilt professionalism in college sports?
> 
> 
> And if you don’t get around to reading this article, here’s a one paragraph takeaway that updates the sorry financial situation of college sports.



Did you read the 2nd paragraph??  Do you know WHY he kept the players home???

It's two-fold, yes -- partly because he wanted his team well-rested for the NCAA tourney (and not the ACC tourney), but also because he was tired of having to travel to NCarolina annually for the ACC tourney after just returning from a long road trip.

In a nutshell, every time the Carolina Women's soccer teams are due to travel prior to the tourney, the schedule is redone TO BENEFIT 4 schools.

Shouldn't come as a surprise as the ACC Commish is a UNC grad.

The rest of the Fla State story:

http://m.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101108/FSU08/11080321/-1/WAP&template=wapart


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## Jason Svoboda

garyd63 said:


> Couldn't agree more, Sackalot. Start a thread on the specifics of these forms of corruption and waste if you want. They're irrelevant to what I'm bringing up--corruption and waste, monetary and human, in *college sports*.


Since you want to continue to beat this dead horse, one that isn't even in our pasture by the way, it's ON YOU to point out the relation to Indiana State. Better yet, give concrete examples where ISU is doing these things you mention. 

Man, I love ice cream. The sky is blue. Do you like bubblegum? I need to wash my underwear. I think I'll have watch some TV now. I need a hair cut? Who are you? Where am I? WTF? I love lamp. Bring da ambalamps. You dun goofed son. Drops mic. I'm out.


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## garyd63

I quote:



> Ye Olde Sycamore Pub (1 Viewing)
> Open-topic moderated forum. Any topic (within reason) is appropriate here as long as they can be discussed with at least a degree of tact, civility, and respect for differing opinions.



I guess I take "open-topic" to mean, well, open-topic.  If I'm wrong on this, banish me forever and continue merrily along in a bubble of uncritical fandom.

As far as linking every incident of corruption, money grubbing, exploitation, wastefulness, criminal activity, and on and on to ISU, that, as I have stated before is not my intention. ISU has been relatively free of "Stuff We Don't Like to Talk About."  Certainly we are untouched by the major stuff, so far.  I say so far because there are no guarantees in this business.  It is a business and it can turn into a dirty business in ways even I can't imagine.  Educational institutions along with their athletic boosters and fans have chosen to swim in these fetid waters.  If we take on the odor of these waters at some point no one should be surprised.  My point is that  there is no reason for any of it.  

Big Buck college athletics contribute nothing to the education of our students.


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## garyd63

4Q_iu said:


> Did you read the 2nd paragraph??  Do you know WHY he kept the players home???
> 
> It's two-fold, yes -- partly because he wanted his team well-rested for the NCAA tourney (and not the ACC tourney), but also because he was tired of having to travel to NCarolina annually for the ACC tourney after just returning from a long road trip.
> 
> In a nutshell, every time the Carolina Women's soccer teams are due to travel prior to the tourney, the schedule is redone TO BENEFIT 4 schools.
> 
> Shouldn't come as a surprise as the ACC Commish is a UNC grad.
> 
> The rest of the Fla State story:
> 
> http://m.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101108/FSU08/11080321/-1/WAP&template=wapart



This is a complex situation.  It's also a symptomatic situation.

I take this controversy as an example of how money, win the big one and let the rest of the players and teams and the conference go scratch, my job is on the line, trumps the often stated but less and less practiced, spirit of  what college athletics is supposed to be.  The coach calls the shots and he's aiming his control at a target that's good for the coach.  Any surprise that other coaches back him up?  Any surprise that the hometown sports rag supports him?


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## garyd63

If I said this dgreen, I’d like very much to see the context:



> Gary I was just wondering...since you said my accusations of professors harassing football players, "was ridiculous and False"




And if Coach Miles said this I would like to know who he said it to, when he said it, and if the administration is following it up and if not, why not.



> It got so bad for Sycamore football that Miles had to file complaints against professors for making fun of players in class, he said.
> 
> “I’ve had to complain to the administration about professors laughing at our players,” Miles said. “So anytime you can help these young men get in a situation where they’re enjoying their college experience now … that’s what it’s all about.”


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## bluestreak

*Hey Boda*

How do you work that ignore thingy again?


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## Callmedoc

Hey Gary, 
I am not going to waste my time copy and pasting the link but you could take the time ot read one of the many other things on this website...it is on the Southern Illinois Indiana State game thread...He said it to the Southern Illinois student paper...But please I would like to see you post about the positives in ISU athletics other than Badgering our athletics on an athletics website, it's like trying to preach to a bunch of christians about being aethist...


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## Callmedoc

Stand corrected....it was in the SIU student paper on the game...


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## Jason Svoboda

Here's something I don't like to talk about... soccer.






What do you guys think? Nice shot, eh?


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## garyd63

Probably a student complaining about fees she pays to support athletic teams.


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## garyd63

> November 19, 2010
> SEC Suspends Vols’ Coach for First 8 League Games
> By PETE THAMEL
> 
> In what could be a harbinger for stiffer penalties for rules breakers in college sports, the Southeastern Conference announced Friday that the Tennessee men’s basketball coach, Bruce Pearl, would be suspended for the first eight league games. . . .
> In September, Tennessee cut Pearl’s pay by $1.5 million over five years and prohibited him from participating in off-campus recruiting for a year after he acknowledged that he misled N.C.A.A. investigators about photographs taken of him with a recruit in 2008. Tennessee also found that Pearl and his assistants had broken N.C.A.A. rules by making too many phone calls to recruits. . . .
> “I’m in favor of this type of thing,” Hamilton [Mike Hamilton, Tennessee’s athletic director] said. “I think it’s necessary if we’re going to take back control of things in college athletics.”
> 
> GO HERE   http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/20/sports/ncaabasketball/20tennessee.html?ref=sports



I guess this means AD Hamilton is admitting things among the Programs of Plenty of Deficits are out of control.  As the NYT's reported yesterday, "Only 14 of the nation’s 120 major athletic departments reported making a profit in the 2008-09 school year, according to the N.C.A.A."


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## Callmedoc

Gary...what are you talking about???? Pearl was suspended because of breaking NCAA rules...and what's your comment about a student who is annoyed by his fees??? I don't see you complaining about the printer fees, Student recreational center fees...I mean, you complain about a certain fee when there are tons of them...


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## garyd63

Just to clarify for dgreen.  When I posted this,



> “Probably a student complaining about fees she pays to support athletic teams.”



I was replying facetiously to the “soccer violence” clip Jason posted.

When you ask this, dgreen,

“Gary...what are you talking about???? Pearl was suspended because of breaking NCAA rules...”

all I can say is read this in my post again.  Here’s what my comment is responding to, 



> “I’m in favor of this type of thing [suspensions for breaking rules],” Hamilton [Mike Hamilton, Tennessee’s athletic director] said. “I think it’s necessary if we’re going to take back control of things in college athletics.”



Get it?  Mike Hamilton is saying, to repeat, “I think it’s necessary if we’re going to take back control of things in college athletics.”

Doesn’t this “taking back control” indicate that things have been out of control?  It would be great if Hamilton would elaborate on this thought, but he's more than ready to put it all behind him, move on, win the next big game, hire the next big salaried coach. And isn’t this just more “Stuff We Don’t Like to Talk About”?


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## garyd63

> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/25/sports/ncaafootball/25leach.html?ref=ncaafootball
> 
> November 24, 2010
> Leach Expects Depositions in Texas Tech Suit to Clear His Name
> By PETE THAMEL
> 
> College football’s firing and hiring season will begin in earnest in the next few weeks, and Mike Leach is hoping to land a job after his contentious firing as coach at Texas Tech last year, partly on the grounds that he mistreated one of his players.
> 
> Leach said a key to his re-entry into major college football lies in the thousands of pages of court documents tied to his lawsuit against Texas Tech. He is seeking more than $12 million for breach of contract.
> 
> Texas Tech fired Leach on Dec. 29, 2009, for “continuous acts of insubordination” and his treatment of wide receiver Adam James, who accused Leach of isolating him in an equipment garage and media room while he was sitting out practice because of a concussion. The university said Leach’s treatment of James was “meant to demean, humiliate and punish the player rather than to serve the team’s best interest.”
> 
> The university has refused to pay Leach the rest of a five-year, $12.7 million contract he signed in February 2009. . . .



Only $12.7 million!?!  What are the big babies and boosters at Texas Tech crying about?  They bought the product, it had no returns or refunds all over it.  Just ask any of the schools paying off big bucks to the lemons they purchased in hopes of. . . of . . . Oh right, few stop and ask that before they they throw money around.


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## garyd63

> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/sports/ncaafootball/26auburn.html?_r=1&ref=sports
> 
> November 25, 2010
> Auburn Is Seeing Crimson Over Questions and Rivalry
> By MIKE TIERNEY
> 
> The most anticipated day of every year in the state of Alabama has arrived with Auburn football devotees caught in a riptide of emotions. . . .
> 
> N.C.A.A. violations have landed the Tigers on probation six times, totaling 12 years, since 1956, though none recently. (Alabama received penalties last year for the fourth time since the mid-1990s.) . .


Does the NCAA need a “Six strikes and you're out rule”?  Why would any self-respecting institution of higher education want to put up with a record like this? Why would any self-respecting institution of higher education want to establish, cater to, and cower before an army of team boosters that ignore a record of malfeasance equal to Auburn’s, Alabama's,  or _______________, or ____________, or ________________ (you fill in the blanks, many Big Buck Programs to choose from)?

Yeah, the Auburn - Alabama game will be a big game.  Anyone with their nose to the wind will be able to smell it.


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## garyd63

> These days the NCAA, which governs intercollegiate athletics, loves to run ads illustrating the fact that most young people who play baseball, tennis, football, volleyball or whatever for their schools end up in careers that have nothing to do with sports. The ads are accurate. Very few college athletes play at the professional level, commanding super-salaries.
> 
> So why the pressure to win at any cost? . . .
> 
> For the past several days, Auburn quarterback Cam Newton, who vaulted to prominence as this year’s frontrunner for the Heisman Trophy, has been at the center of what The New York Times called the most recent “redemptive narrative.” Confirmed, unconfirmed and contradictory accounts allege his skills were shopped at various pricing levels to several schools, and a timeline shows him bouncing from school to school. At each stop, the familiar refrain has been, “He deserves a chance to get his life together.”
> 
> Sure, but does a “chance” require a starting position on a Division 1 team? And what about all the young people who’ve also become embroiled in drugs or cheating or theft or whatever “situations”? How’s the “redemption narrative” going for those who can’t run or pass a football with anything near Newton’s ability? . . .


-------------
Charlie Mitchell, former editor of the Vicksburg Post, is assistant dean of the Meek School of Journalism and New Media at the University of Mississippi.

http://www.sunherald.com/2010/11/16/2644981/more-questions-than-answers-on.html

_______________
Mitchell’s article hits on a point that never comes across to stars in their eyes fans.  A kid in the hood who can do math and science is not equal to the kid who wastes his high school years in a gym or on a football field and excels.  We may lose a budding scientist but we gain . . . what exactly?


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## garyd63

> These days the NCAA, which governs intercollegiate athletics, loves to run ads illustrating the fact that most young people who play baseball, tennis, football, volleyball or whatever for their schools end up in careers that have nothing to do with sports. The ads are accurate. Very few college athletes play at the professional level, commanding super-salaries.
> 
> So why the pressure to win at any cost? . . .



What cost?  What pressure?  How should a young man choose a school when pursuing an education?  All answered here:



> Indy Star 11-28-2010
> 
> . . .
> As for the money issue, Glass didn't hesitate to respond. Lynch's yearly salary of just more than $660,000 ranked last in the Big Ten.
> 
> "We're prepared to make available the financial resources we need to get the person and persons that we want,'' Glass said.
> 
> Glass also said that IU would honor all verbal commitments the university received for the upcoming recruiting class.
> 
> One of those recruits, Lawrence Central High School quarterback Tre Roberson, said he hadn't heard about Lynch being fired when contacted by a reporter.
> 
> "I'll have to see who comes in as the new coach,'' said Roberson, who was recruited by Lynch's son, wide receivers coach Billy Lynch. "I'll wait and see and then make a decision on what I want to do. I'm still committed to Indiana.'' . . .


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## garyd63

*Stuff We Don't Like to Talk About--IU throws money into the wind.*

And the beat goes on . . .  What would $660,000 buy in *educational * terms. Oh, maybe 25 to 30 adjunct instructors to keep the class size down and give students in those classes more attention and help. And $4 million!?!  That kind of money might put or keep some academic department at IU in a Top Ten list that really counts. 




> The university [Indiana University] has had quite a run of paying coaches for not coaching.
> 
> The subject comes up today because of Sunday's firing of IU football coach Bill Lynch with a year remaining on a contract that pays him roughly $660,000 a year. . . .
> 
> In all, the Indianapolis Star reported in 2008 that since 2000, Indiana University had paid more than $4 million to coaches and athletic administrators for leaving the university. The Star reported at the time that a university spokesman said the buyouts did not come from public funds, but rather, from the athletic department.
> 
> Still, that seems to us be a waste of money better spent on successful athletic programs.
> 
> http://www.courierpress.com/news/2010/dec/01/hire-a-keeper-the-issue-iu-needs-a-coach-again/


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## True Blue

Can someone tell me how to ignore someone on here?


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## SycamoreBlue3209

You don't like reading how ignorant he can be?? Lol.


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## True Blue

SycamoreBlue3209 said:


> You don't like reading how ignorant he can be?? Lol.



I'm in a bad mood and don't want to see his shit on here anymore.


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## Sackalot

does anyone know how to type the sound that the teachers make in the Charlie Brown shows??


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## Callmedoc

I wish he would at least once post something positive about an athletics team at Indiana State...he says he supports students but to be quite honest, I havent seen one positive thing about our student athletes...


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## Sackalot

here is my simple statement about athletics and the costs of having a decent athletics program...

78% of all students that complete their educational goals of a degree are involved in some way on their campus.  Whether that is Greek Life, SGA, Honorary Organization, athletics, etc.  Student athletes graduate....one can easily argue that those students that are athletes receive special treatment, they have staff and coaches and tutors, etc.  But so do Greeks, so does SGA, so does the Business Fraternity.  For better or worse, athletics are important and always will be.  Sure some schools handle it poorly, some make bad decisions, some can't control their donors, etc.  But the fact remains that at ISU, athletics are a bright spot for the campus (even if students don't pay attention as much as they should).  
Could the money spent on athletics go toward some other area?  Sure it could...but with that question comes the question of what about other money.  Could money from the state that is spent on cars be spent elsewhere?  Could state approrpriations be spent on things such as more artwork?  Instead of building new buildings or renovating buildings could we just spend that money on faculty and have students take classes on trailers?  All are possible.  But not likely.  The spending of state approrpations on renovation or building creates jobs...the intent of giving the money to the school in the first place.  Athletics is a center of pride and entertainment.  Do some schools spend millions on this and more than they should..sure.  Does IU spend to much money on the arts?  To me yes they do...how much do you really need to spend on the arts?  

It all boils down to this for me.  The overwhelming majority of the $ spent on the overwhelming majority of athletics across the country is private funds, designated by the donor for that purpose...if I want to give money to athletics I will do that and I will make sure it is earmarked that way.  Each person has that right.  How many educational programs out there are functioning with good faculty at some of these schools because athletics donors give big bucks to the atheltics program (which often requires them to give a portion to the general fund)?  Many do and without athetics those donors would more than likely not give near as much!!

In a perfect world all areas would get the funding they need...but that is not the real world.


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## garyd63

I guess this needs to be posted two or three times a year. Or at least until the next accounting takes place.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/ncaa-finances.htm

For  2008-09 the NCAA College Athletics Finance  Data Base shows the following:

ISU’s  Total operating expenses                                      $10,730,895.00

Subtotal operating revenue                                               $11,041,403.00

Looks like a nice little profit, right?                                 $    310,508.00 

Well, maybe.  But here’s where the substantial parts of the operating revenue come from: 

Revenue: Student Fees                       $5,247,776.00 or	47.53%

Direct institutional support                   $1,948,331.00 or  17.65%

Indirect facilities                                $  756,977.00   or  6.86%
and administrative support


Is there a problem when almost one-half of the programs revenue comes from student fees?  Is there a problem when over 25% of the revenue is kicked in by the taxpayers through institutional and administrative support?  And while we’re at it, just who gets that $310,508.00 in paper profits?


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## Callmedoc

Hi, 
Idk if anyone knows but this halloween I went as a professor who has no life to the point where he preaches to people he knows he wont turn but still wants the attention...I went as Gary Dailey...


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## Bally #50

OK Mr Prof......

*"one-half of the programs revenue comes from student fees"? *

If that is in fact TRUE, how does that compare with EVERY similar institution in the midwest, in the country......whatever demo you want to give it? I seriously doubt our "percentage" is that far off an Eastern Illinois, an Illinois State, or any other university with similarities to our situation. If we are off-center, then your argument might make some sense. Please advise.


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## 4Q_iu

garyd63 said:


> I guess this needs to be posted two or three times a year. Or at least until the next accounting takes place.
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/ncaa-finances.htm
> 
> For  2008-09 the NCAA College Athletics Finance  Data Base shows the following:
> 
> ISU’s  Total operating expenses                                      $10,730,895.00
> 
> Subtotal operating revenue                                               $11,041,403.00
> 
> Looks like a nice little profit, right?                                 $    310,508.00
> 
> Well, maybe.  But here’s where the substantial parts of the operating revenue come from:
> 
> Revenue: Student Fees                       $5,247,776.00 or	47.53%
> 
> Direct institutional support                   $1,948,331.00 or  17.65%
> 
> Indirect facilities                                $  756,977.00   or  6.86%
> and administrative support
> 
> 
> Is there a problem when almost one-half of the programs revenue comes from student fees?  Is there a problem when over 25% of the revenue is kicked in by the taxpayers through institutional and administrative support?  And while we’re at it, just who gets that $310,508.00 in paper profits?



What is the source of the remaining $2,777,811.00 ($11,041,403.00 - $7,953,084.00)??
Subtotal operating revenue: $11,041,403.00
Substantial parts of the operating revenue: $7,953,084.00


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## garyd63

Try the USA Today report here:  http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/ncaa-finances.htm

Maybe your answer is in these fugures. I find it hard to look at them. I go cross-eyed when I get angry.


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## Sackalot

Student fees?  As I have said many times this is the fee for every student to be able to attend any game they want for free (not really free).  This is common across the board.  

In 2008-2009 academic year ISU had 9322 full time students.  If you use that # and divide the $5,247,776 by that # then you are claiming that each student pays $562.95 per year?  I realize you are taking this from the NCAA website, but we all know that isn't accurate when you put it into context and in true academic fashion use statistical data to reach the conclusion that is desired.  What we know is accurate is that students pay approx. $150 per year to have the option to attend athletic events.  What we know is that the Foundation provides significant funding for athletics and that is increasing with the advent of capital campaigns for football and others (in short order).  What we know is that from all indications all the support that athletics receives is "institutional" and not from the state appropriations.  What we know is that ISU runs things as "right" as possible. 

It appears you are arguing that the $5 million in student fees (which is questionable at best) should be used to hire more faculty to teach more classes...?  ISU has the states smallest class sizes, ISU is known for this.  Is it imperative to hire more faculty so classes sizes are even smaller?  ISU has a strong faculty, they have plenty of adjunct faculty...and lest we forget about Ivy Tech-Terre Haute which many, many students use for the types of classes that adjunct would commonly teach...and there is no way, EVER, that ISU would be able to compete with the cost per credit hour at Ivy Tech...nor would the state allow it.  The higher education landscape has and continues to change in this state.  ISU has to compete and though you may argue that competing academically by improving specific programs or bringing new programs to ISU is the way to go.  I and most on this site would argue that the way to compete is to do exactly what they are doing, by growing the entire college experience and by focusing on programs of distinction...grow athletics and everthing else will follow...it is a simple concept.  But grow it in a way that is proper and responsible...which Ron Prettyman, Dr. Bradley and the coaching staffs are doing.  

Every office, every employee and every student would like thing to be cheaper, everyone would like for more things to be available and everyone can throw stones...but the reality is that ISU is a residential 4 year institution.  The holistic college experience is a vital part of that...athletics is a very important part of that experience.  Just as, for me, my fraternity caused me to become a good student and my brothers motivated me to always reach for my goals, athletics causes school spirit, athletic causes alumni spirit and an institution of higher education is only as good as its alumni...take it leave it the institutions of higher education that everyone would consider the "best" around have STRONG alumni support and involvement (from the statehouse to the alumni wine and cheese social event).


----------



## 4Q_iu

garyd63 said:


> Try the USA Today report here:  http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/ncaa-finances.htm
> 
> Maybe your answer is in these fugures. I find it hard to look at them. I go cross-eyed when I get angry.



You started the thread...

This is YOUR issue...

Support and defend it!


----------



## 4Q_iu

Sackalot said:


> Student fees?  As I have said many times this is the fee for every student to be able to attend any game they want for free (not really free).  This is common across the board.
> 
> In 2008-2009 academic year ISU had 9322 full time students.  If you use that # and divide the $5,247,776 by that # then you are claiming that each student pays $562.95 per year?  I realize you are taking this from the NCAA website, but we all know that isn't accurate when you put it into context and in true academic fashion use statistical data to reach the conclusion that is desired.  What we know is accurate is that students pay approx. $150 per year to have the option to attend athletic events.  What we know is that the Foundation provides significant funding for athletics and that is increasing with the advent of capital campaigns for football and others (in short order).  What we know is that from all indications all the support that athletics receives is "institutional" and not from the state appropriations.  What we know is that ISU runs things as "right" as possible.
> 
> It appears you are arguing that the $5 million in student fees (which is questionable at best) should be used to hire more faculty to teach more classes...?  ISU has the states smallest class sizes, ISU is known for this.  Is it imperative to hire more faculty so classes sizes are even smaller?  ISU has a strong faculty, they have plenty of adjunct faculty...and lest we forget about Ivy Tech-Terre Haute which many, many students use for the types of classes that adjunct would commonly teach...and there is no way, EVER, that ISU would be able to compete with the cost per credit hour at Ivy Tech...nor would the state allow it.  The higher education landscape has and continues to change in this state.  ISU has to compete and though you may argue that competing academically by improving specific programs or bringing new programs to ISU is the way to go.  I and most on this site would argue that the way to compete is to do exactly what they are doing, by growing the entire college experience and by focusing on programs of distinction...grow athletics and everthing else will follow...it is a simple concept.



How do west laffy, isu-m and gloomington address transfer hours from Ivy Tech and Vincennes?

How do WE?


----------



## garyd63

4Q asks:


> What is the source of the remaining $2,777,811.00 ($11,041,403.00 - $7,953,084.00)??
> Subtotal operating revenue: $11,041,403.00
> Substantial parts of the operating revenue: $7,953,084.00



OK, 4Q, I went back to look at the figures supplied by USA Today’s research and it reminded me what I pulled out of those figures and why.  The almost $8 mil in revenue I used in my post *represent three sources closest to student and taxpayers wallets*–fees and school support.  School support comes from the general funds the administration controls which come, ultimately, from our taxes.  These are used to cover ISU’s Big Buck Athletic Entertainment Business shortfalls year after year after year.

Of  the $2.7+ mil not detailed that you ask about (and readily available if you cared to look), four sources are major:  NCAA/conference distributions including all tournament revenue ($826K), Guarantees ($529K), Contributions ($766K) and Royalties, licensing, advertisements and sponsorships ($219K).

My reposting of these figures was in response to this:



> OK Mr Prof......
> 
> "one-half of the programs revenue comes from student fees"?
> 
> If that is in fact TRUE, . . . [followed by a we’re no worse than comparable schools comment].



So the facts show that 47.53% of the program’s revenues come from student fees.


----------



## Bally #50

*"So the facts show that 47.53% of the program’s revenues come from student fees"*

Not brain surgery here, Gary. Not disputing the 47.53% number (don't have a clue if that is good or bad) but I was WAS asking whether or not that number is out of line with similar institutions, or for ANY institution for that matter. A YES or NO would be adequate.


----------



## 4Q_iu

garyd63 said:


> 4Q asks:
> 
> 
> OK, 4Q, I went back to look at the figures supplied by USA Today’s research and it reminded me what I pulled out of those figures and why.  The almost $8 mil in revenue I used in my post *represent three sources closest to student and taxpayers wallets*–fees and school support.  School support comes from the general funds the administration controls which come, ultimately, from our taxes.  These are used to cover ISU’s Big Buck Athletic Entertainment Business shortfalls year after year after year.
> 
> Of  the $2.7+ mil not detailed that you ask about (and readily available if you cared to look), four sources are major:  NCAA/conference distributions including all tournament revenue ($826K), Guarantees ($529K), Contributions ($766K) and Royalties, licensing, advertisements and sponsorships ($219K).
> 
> My reposting of these figures was in response to this:
> 
> 
> 
> So the facts show that 47.53% of the program’s revenues come from student fees.



Thank you for your research and work -- had you completed it in the first post, you would have received a better grade.


----------



## Sackalot

4Q_iu said:


> How do west laffy, isu-m and gloomington address transfer hours from Ivy Tech and Vincennes?
> 
> How do WE?



All schools in the state have courses that are categorized as courses that will transfer between any state school.  So the policy is pretty simple and mandated by the state...any course from the INtransfer list must transfer regardless of where it is taken.  Now, that doesn't mean it will serve the student in their degree, but it will transfer.  So at ISU, many, many students will go to Ivy Tech to take Biology, Math, English pre-reqs or the like.  This is because it is perceived (and probably true) that the courses are easier at Ivy Tech.

Typically the students are registered at GUEST students at Ivy Tech and they will take a course or two in the summer or an additional course beyond the 9-12 hours they are taking at ISU.  They do this to supplement the courses that they are taking and since a 3 hour course at Ivy Tech is only around $360 including all fees...the ISU students just pay for the course out of their pocket because it is sooo cheap.  In fact, I have seen large groups of students in the same cohort take the ENGL 111 together and share the books so it is even cheaper.

But to answer your question, as long as the course that the student takes is on the INtransfer list it must transfer.  If it is not on the list it will not.  But there are a few courses that transfer that are not going to transfer in as the exact same course which can cause some problems for the student that is trying to do that.  I know at ISU, they will accept all credits from Ivy Tech and Vincennes...it may not help the student graduate but it will appear on their transcript at a transfer hours.  REMINDER:  some courses at Ivy Tech are not on that list so they don't transfer...but that is already known by the ISU students that do this and it is far more than you would think.


----------



## Sackalot

garyd63 said:


> 4Q asks:
> 
> 
> OK, 4Q, I went back to look at the figures supplied by USA Today’s research and it reminded me what I pulled out of those figures and why.  The almost $8 mil in revenue I used in my post *represent three sources closest to student and taxpayers wallets*–fees and school support.  School support comes from the general funds the administration controls which come, ultimately, from our taxes.  These are used to cover ISU’s Big Buck Athletic Entertainment Business shortfalls year after year after year.
> 
> Of  the $2.7+ mil not detailed that you ask about (and readily available if you cared to look), four sources are major:  NCAA/conference distributions including all tournament revenue ($826K), Guarantees ($529K), Contributions ($766K) and Royalties, licensing, advertisements and sponsorships ($219K).
> 
> My reposting of these figures was in response to this:
> 
> 
> 
> So the facts show that 47.53% of the program’s revenues come from student fees.




Making the broad statement that school support is only from state support is not accurate.  It does not mean tax payer money...reaching to find something that isn't there!


----------



## 4Q_iu

Sackalot said:


> All schools in the state have courses that are categorized as courses that will transfer between any state school.  So the policy is pretty simple and mandated by the state...any course from the INtransfer list must transfer regardless of where it is taken.  Now, that doesn't mean it will serve the student in their degree, but it will transfer.  So at ISU, many, many students will go to Ivy Tech to take Biology, Math, English pre-reqs or the like.  This is because it is perceived (and probably true) that the courses are easier at Ivy Tech.
> 
> Typically the students are registered at GUEST students at Ivy Tech and they will take a course or two in the summer or an additional course beyond the 9-12 hours they are taking at ISU.  They do this to supplement the courses that they are taking and since a 3 hour course at Ivy Tech is only around $360 including all fees...the ISU students just pay for the course out of their pocket because it is sooo cheap.  In fact, I have seen large groups of students in the same cohort take the ENGL 111 together and share the books so it is even cheaper.
> 
> But to answer your question, as long as the course that the student takes is on the INtransfer list it must transfer.  If it is not on the list it will not.  But there are a few courses that transfer that are not going to transfer in as the exact same course which can cause some problems for the student that is trying to do that.  I know at ISU, they will accept all credits from Ivy Tech and Vincennes...it may not help the student graduate but it will appear on their transcript at a transfer hours.  REMINDER:  some courses at Ivy Tech are not on that list so they don't transfer...but that is already known by the ISU students that do this and it is far more than you would think.



Well, I know at one time Purdue did (or tried) to limit the number of transfer hours they would accept (at least from the Ivy Tech's of the world)

I only transferred two courses (6 hours) to State (too busy making tuition money in the summer to sleep through Ivy Tech courses.


----------



## Sackalot

4Q_iu said:


> Well, I know at one time Purdue did (or tried) to limit the number of transfer hours they would accept (at least from the Ivy Tech's of the world)
> 
> I only transferred two courses (6 hours) to State (too busy making tuition money in the summer to sleep through Ivy Tech courses.



There is a portion of the state "rules" that allows them to limit the amount of credits that they accept that can be "applied" to a degree, but as I understand it, they will accept anything on the list.  

PU, IU, etc...do get around it by changing course codes so that a ENGL 111 at Ivy Tech is only ENGL 101 at IU and then the program might require ENGL 118 so the student transfers in a ENGL course but they still have to take another one or two to get their degree.  But when it comes to ISU students being guest students at IVY TECH, trust me they know what courses will transfer in and the exact courses that are going to work for them.


----------



## garyd63

4Q_iu said:


> Thank you for your research and work -- had you completed it in the first post, you would have received a better grade.



4Q, as already stated, I only tried to respond to the question/comment put forward  about student fees.  *You* took the discussion in a different direction.  A direction, by the way, which appears to have an agenda or a point, neither of which you make clear.  On grades, I always think it best to grade responses to the question/issue under discussion.


----------



## garyd63

Sackalot said:


> Making the broad statement that school support is only from state support is not accurate.  It does not mean tax payer money...reaching to find something that isn't there!



I thought I specified those elements in the _USA Today_ data that qualified as school support, those being: "Direct institutional support" and ""Indirect facilities and administrative support."  These two factors total nearly 25% of the "Revenue" used toward keeping ISU's Big Buck Entertainment program from sinking beneath the waves of its expenses.


----------



## garyd63

> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/03/sports/ncaafootball/03rhoden.html?_r=1&ref=sports
> 
> December 2, 2010
> Blame the Father, and Spare the Son
> By WILLIAM C. RHODEN
> 
> We do the best we can for our children. Sometimes we succeed. Sometimes we make mistakes along the way. On Wednesday, the N.C.A.A. ruled that Cecil Newton Sr. made a mistake that nearly ruined his son’s college career and Auburn’s magical season.
> 
> While the N.C.A.A. determined that Newton worked with a scouting service director to shop his son to Mississippi State, it found that Auburn and Cam Newton, its star quarterback, did not know about the backroom dealings and ruled him eligible to play without restrictions.
> 
> The N.C.A.A., which too often punishes athletes too severely, got this one right. . . .



The NCAA may have gotten this one right (the investigation continues), but Rhoden goes on to underline some of sins that are the Stuff We Don’t Like to Talk About:



> Major-college programs are minor leagues for professional teams, finishing schools for athletes and a great source of campus entertainment.
> 
> But no matter how exploitative big-time intercollegiate sports may be, parents who put their child on the auction block are participants in its corruption. Cecil Newton crossed the line when he put his son up for sale. Once he did that, he became little more than a market hustler trying to make money off his son.
> 
> This is not the first time an overzealous parent has tried to shop a son or a daughter. As long as the N.C.A.A. runs this high-profile semiprofessional scam called big-time sports, the Newton episode will not be the last.



You have to be a contortionist in a circus freak show to argue the college sports industry is some kind of high-minded partner in an educational institution's mission.  These institutions house the Big Buck Entertainment Programs, pay their bills, cover up their sins and crimes and smile and beat their chests while doing it.  While participating in all of this we have smooth presidents and sweaty boosters mouthing words about the "Search for Truth" and the need to bring the "Light of Reason to Lives and the Nation" and the hollow and meaningless, "We're Number One."  

There's a word for all of this. It's not hypocrisy, it's not blindness, it's not willful ignorance.  Maybe the word I'm searching for is a phrase: Get along by going along.


----------



## Sackalot

So here is another direction...the institutional support, whether direct or indirect is mostly salaries.  For an ISU employee to receive beneifts and pay do they not have to be a part of the institution, thus the "support"?  Does their salary not come from the institution?  As does the faculty and the staff and the administration...of course it does.  
And do not most or several coaches also teach courses? (I honestly don't know the answer to this question just throwing it out there).  

Institutional support as you are categorizing it and institutional support I see are two different things. You see it as a waste of money for athletics, I see it as a great and necessary piece to the college experience.  Just like I see HMSU as important, just like I see residence halls as important and just as I see Greek Life as vital to the college experience.  I learned everything of value to me in my life outside the classroom from experiences, leadership opportunties and application of what theory and concepts that I studied, but all was learned within the university environment that was supported by my studies.  You see that differently and you are entitled to that opinion.  I think you are wrong...as do most on this site...but you are entitled to your opinion.  
I will say this much and this is IMHO, it is not surprising that you feel the way you do and that you strongly agrue the way you do...your experiences are completely different than mine and most on this site.  Most work outside of higher education and in particular outside of academics in higher education...these are very, very, very different places.  Your experiences lead you down a path, my experiences lead me down a much different path and belief structure.  I beleive that for a state supported institution of higher education to remain salient and beneficial to the state certain things are necessary.  In the case of ISU specific educational programs such as Teaching, Criminology and now Business are vital.  But also it is important for a state supported institution to provide things for its students and the community such as internships, volunteer opportunities, experiential learning opportunities and yes, athletics which serve the greater good of the institution and the community.  Do I wish that every department at ISU could be funded as much as possible...YES!  Is it possible, NO!  But what is possible is for ISU to continue to improve its academic, athletic and co-cirricular/extra-cirricular programs.  That is happening all at once at ISU and it is something that every alumnus, student, staff member, etc. can be proud of.  ISU is doing things that are amazing!  Sure, there are things that I wish were different.  I wish that no institutional support was necessary at all for athletics so that we could completely silence all those that are against athletics...maybe someday that will be happen...probably not, but I can hope.  

Gary I get why you do this...I do!  But for all practical purposes all it does is create passionate responses from those on this site that care about and for ISU as an entire institution...not just the academic side of the house.   Academics are certainly the reason for an instutition of higher education, that cannot be argued whatsoever.  But, an institution of higher education is soo much more than just the classrooms, just the labs.  It is an experience that students pay for...whether that experience is on campus or that experience is online...they pay for the experience.  Otherwise, they would do what we could all do..."get a $200,000 education for $3.50 in late fees from the public library." Matt Damon's Character in Good Will Hunting.


----------



## garyd63

Sackalot argues this:



> It is an experience that students pay for...whether that experience is on campus or that experience is online...they pay for the experience. Otherwise, they would do what we could all do..."get a $200,000 education for $3.50 in late fees from the public library." Matt Damon's Character in Good Will Hunting.



This authority from a Hollywood movie is unanswerable.  Hollywood gives us the myth, the escape from reality.  Big Buck College Entertainment sports is also show biz--spectactular and sleazy all at once.  It's just not about education.


----------



## Callmedoc

Gary, the only thing you have ever retorted back with is an opinion...not a fact...I am sorry but if that's all you got please save your keyboard from the destructiveness of your angry typing because you aren't turning anyone towards your cause...


----------



## Bally #50

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Gary, the only thing you have ever retorted back with is an opinion...not a fact...I am sorry but if that's all you got please save your keyboard from the destructiveness of your angry typing because you aren't turning anyone towards your cause...


To be honest, that NEVER happens.


----------



## Callmedoc

What never happens?


----------



## Bally #50

Dgreenwell3 said:


> What never happens?


*"because you aren't turning anyone towards your cause..."*

Because when Gary speaks........THIS never happens. Nothing to do you with you Dg3~


----------



## Callmedoc

I just didnt know which part of my post that was pointed towards lol...if anything it just agitates people lol..


----------



## Bally #50

Dgreenwell3 said:


> I just didnt know which part of my post that was pointed towards lol...if anything it just agitates people lol..


You weren't doing the agitating last I looked.


----------



## Callmedoc

O no lol...I was talking about Garyd63...


----------



## garyd63

There seems to be some confusion about facts and opinion on this thread. Here are some facts to swallow.

Binghamton Coach Gets $1.2 Million to Resign

The same article points out that Virginia Tech and the Atlantic Coast Conference had to purchase 17,500 tickets at $125 each for the 2009 Orange Bowl, but sold only 3,342, for a loss of $1.77 million — surely worth it for a marginal inclusion into Our Thing, as the B.C.S. could be called.

Only 14 of the nation’s 120 major athletic departments reported making a profit in the 2008-09 school year, according to the N.C.A.A. 

In September, Tennessee cut Pearl’s pay by $1.5 million over five years and prohibited him from participating in off-campus recruiting for a year after he acknowledged that he misled N.C.A.A. investigators about photographs taken of him with a recruit in 2008.

Texas Tech fired Leach on Dec. 29, 2009, for “continuous acts of insubordination” and his treatment of wide receiver Adam James, who accused Leach of isolating him in an equipment garage and media room while he was sitting out practice because of a concussion. . . .

The university has refused to pay Leach the rest of a five-year, $12.7 million contract he signed in February 2009. . . . [Comment: Will this be a first?]

N.C.A.A. violations have landed the Tigers on probation six times, totaling 12 years, since 1956, though none recently. (Alabama received penalties last year for the fourth time since the mid-1990s.) . .

As for the money issue, Glass didn't hesitate to respond. Lynch's yearly salary of just more than $660,000 ranked last in the Big Ten.

"We're prepared to make available the financial resources we need to get the person and persons that we want,'' Glass said.

So the facts show that 47.53% of the [ISU] program’s revenues come from student fees.

*The above are all FACTS I’ve posted on this thread.  Here’s an opinion I posted:*



> “This is not the first time an overzealous parent has tried to shop a son or a daughter. As long as the N.C.A.A. runs this high-profile semiprofessional scam called big-time sports, the Newton episode will not be the last.”



*This happens to be the opinion of the dean of the New York Times sports writers, William C. Rhoden.  It’s an opinion I agree with because the FACTS have piled up which justify it. *


----------



## Callmedoc

Once again this might as well be a column gary...the facts that support it are true but as with EVERY statistic you can skew it either way...I could show you these same numbers and say, "Look for a mere 1.2 million we get rid of a coach who is an idiot. It may well be worth every penny." 
Also I don't see you complaining about educational foundations on campus that students completely support but regularly see no benefit from...Athletics teach important life lessons to students and do provide jobs for students (Media work, security etc.)


----------



## garyd63

> Athletics teach important life lessons to students and do provide jobs for students (Media work, security etc.)



The "life lessons" part may very well be true. It's one of the reasons I support athletics for ALL students, big time.  My beef is with Big Buck Entertainment Programs that serve a limited number of students (who are frequently exploited) and the Athletic Dept. establishments and their myopic booster buddies.  

My posting this stuff about the Stuff We Don't Like to Talk About on this excellent  Sycamore Pride forum is because people here do have pride in their school. I happen to think this pride is misplaced or way overdone in the direction of the semi-professional sports industry established in America's colleges.  But from my way of thinking, I would much rather try to discuss the issue of out of control college athletics with those who see value in it than with those who think as I do but have given up.  Maybe I learned not to give up playing sports.  Or maybe I learned not to give up while studying and teaching African American history.


----------



## 4Q_iu

garyd63 said:


> 4Q, as already stated, I only tried to respond to the question/comment put forward  about student fees.  *You* took the discussion in a different direction.  A direction, by the way, which appears to have an agenda or a point, neither of which you make clear.  On grades, I always think it best to grade responses to the question/issue under discussion.



If you're going to raise issues about the funding of college athletics, don't you feel it's important to discuss ALL of the funding?

Not just the portion that you wish to highlight for a certain agenda?

Do I like intercollegiate sports?  Yes.
Do I wish we spent more money on them?  I wish State HAD those resources; how they then choose to spend them... another discussion.
Do I feel the nation, as a whole, spends too much time, energy, money, passion on sports??  Absolutely.
Will that change soon?  Not a snowball's chance in Hades.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

4Q_iu said:


> If you're going to raise issues about the funding of college athletics, don't you feel it's important to discuss ALL of the funding?
> 
> Not just the portion that you wish to highlight for a certain agenda?
> 
> Do I like intercollegiate sports?  Yes.
> Do I wish we spent more money on them?  I wish State HAD those resources; how they then choose to spend them... another discussion.
> Do I feel the nation, as a whole, spends too much time, energy, money, passion on sports??  Absolutely.
> Will that change soon?  Not a snowball's chance in Hades.



Well said!


----------



## Sackalot

This, once again is fruitless.  Gary hates intercolleigant athletics...we all love them.  

Facts?  Here's a fact.  The cost of a degree contiues to increase and it isn't because of athletics.


----------



## garyd63

Sackalot asks a good question:



> And do not most or several coaches also teach courses? (I honestly don't know the answer to this question just throwing it out there).



After poking and asking around, I still haven’t pinned down a definitive answer to this question.  The great Duane Klueh was probably the last ISU tenured faculty member who also coached.  I do remember the smelly case at the U. Of Georgia (1999?) when Jim Harrick was fired and they also got rid of assistant coach, Jim H. Jr.  It seems Jr. was teaching a course to athletes.  The final exam included questions like: How many halves are there in a basketball game? How many points is a “3 pointer” worth?  Grucho used to ask, “Who is buried in Grant’s tomb?  That was supposed to be funny.  Jim Jr. and coaches teaching athletes on their teams, not a laughing matter.


----------



## garyd63

> http://msn.foxsports.com/collegefoo...for-play-scandal-Auburn-Heisman-Trophy-120910
> 
> Cam Newton situation exposes NCAA again - College Football News
> Jason Whitlock
> 
> Fox Sports Updated Dec 10, 2010 3:33 PM ET
> 
> For those of you who believe in the myth of “amateur” athletics, I have a solution for you:
> 
> Support NCAA legislation that pays the coaches and executives in education, too.
> 
> Yeah, let’s give Nick Saban and Dan Mullen books, room and board to law school or medical school or whatever higher degree of education they aspire to. Let’s level the playing field and give all the NCAA employees a shot at more education instead of more money.
> 
> The slave catchers, moralizers and Tim Tebow worshippers — the men and women troubled that Cecil Newton’s boy is going to win the Heisman Trophy — obviously believe there’s something sacred and special about “amateur” status.
> 
> Why not make the coaches special, too?
> 
> You think Dan Mullen isn’t upset Auburn cost him his chance to pimp Cam Newton for a new, fatter contract or a job somewhere else?
> 
> If you read my column in late July about Reggie Bush giving back his Heisman Trophy, you know exactly how I feel about the NCAA, the college football and basketball plantations it runs and the media slave catchers who uphold outdated, unethical NCAA rules like they’re the Ten Commandments.
> 
> It’s all a for-profit joke disguised as a plea for integrity. . . .



What does it mean when the top award and the top game in college football is under such a cloud as to elicit this kind of commentary?  And while I'm at it, can someone tell me Cam Newton's year in school and his major?


----------



## garyd63

> December 15, 2010
> WVU AD: Couldn't Win National Title With Stewart
> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
> 
> Filed at 2:36 p.m. EST on December 16, 2010
> 
> MORGANTOWN, W.Va. (AP) — West Virginia athletic director Oliver Luck says he decided to replace Bill Stewart as head football coach because a national championship wasn't possible under the program's current leadership. . . .



Yeah, that's a good reason to go even deeper in debt with your Big Buck Program.  Why not just load up on lottery tickets, Mr. Luck?


----------



## garyd63

> December 20, 2010
> With $8 Million on the Line, It Is More Than Just a Game
> By JOHN BRANCH
> 
> Ten days, 250 miles and millions of dollars away from the Rose Bowl in California, Boise State will play Wednesday in Las Vegas.
> 
> The reason that the 11-1 Broncos are playing in something called the Maaco Bowl, and not on New Year’s Day in the most famous bowl game of them all, has been whittled to its starkest plot line: a player missed the costliest of kicks. . . .
> 
> “When everybody says, hey, it’s just a game,” the Western Athletic Conference commissioner, Karl Benson, said in a phone interview, “I think we all know that it’s more than a game.” . . .
> 
> 
> “I’ve talked about the $1 million free throw and the $15 million field goal for a long time,” said the sociologist Jay Coakley, author of the textbook “Sports in Society: Issues and Controversies,” in its 10th edition. “As the structure of college football becomes increasingly professionalized, it’s just out of sync with the amateur status of the athletes.”



http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/21/sports/ncaafootball/21boise.html?_r=1

It  smells to high heaven, but I would say this statement from the Big Buck Commish  out west is refreshingly honest.  He's willing to talk about the bundles of money in front of the entire college sport's world's eyes, nose and hearts.

“When everybody says, hey, it’s just a game,” the Western Athletic Conference commissioner, Karl Benson, said in a phone interview, “I think we all know that it’s more than a game.”


----------



## Eleven

garyd63 said:


> It  smells to high heaven, but I would say this statement from the Big Buck Commish  out west is refreshingly honest.  He's willing to talk about the bundles of money in front of the entire college sport's world's eyes, nose and hearts.
> 
> “When everybody says, hey, it’s just a game,” the Western Athletic Conference commissioner, Karl Benson, said in a phone interview, “I think we all know that it’s more than a game.”



Not sure that you would find many on here to disagree with that statement.
But no player is thinking about the million it cost his school... he's thinking about the teammates he let down - and what could have been.


----------



## Sackalot

no arguement here that it is becoming to commerciallized and sub-professional...but athletics are important and they always should be. And not an entire school athletic program but an athletic team for the school playing against another school.

The bowls are out of control and the advertising dollars are way, way out of wack, most can't argue against that.  But these are specific and isolated situations that you bring up.  one or two people with unethical and poor decision making ability.  Those that violate the rules should be banned...thus coaches or athletic directors that do these types of things should be banned from working the profession, the presidents of universities could address that.   Pay for play is bad and we all know it....unless some might believe that athletes should be paid which is a whole different argument.


----------



## garyd63

> Rick Snider: Maryland's firing of Friedgen is all about the money
> 
> Maryland athletic director Kevin Anderson loves saying "transformative excellence." Translation -- Terps football needs to get much better, and Anderson felt coach Ralph Friedgen couldn't take them there.
> 
> But the real term behind this firing is "Friedgen Fatigue." Maryland fans were tiring of the coach, as evidenced by declining attendance over the past five years. There was no juice left in the program, much less money. Anderson was *forced to fire "The Fridge" despite a 10-year stint that included seven bowls and a high percentage of players graduating.*
> 
> It's not enough to simply win and stay out of trouble. It's all about money. Maryland football was never a huge moneymaker compared to its basketball counterpart, but recently increasing Byrd Stadium's seating capacity -- combined with unsold luxury suites and crowds in the 30,000-range -- meant the *Terps couldn't afford to stay with Friedgen after losing $500,000 this season alone. Anderson called it a "strategic business decision."*
> 
> Fear the deficit.
> 
> 
> Read more at the Washington Examiner: http://washingtonexaminer.com/sport...firing-friedgen-all-about-money#ixzz18oEi0uRx



"Fear the deficit."  Good line. first you have to recognize the existence of the defict. Most schools refuse to so they continue to make bad decisions about their programs. 

"Terps couldn't afford to stay with Friedgen after losing $500,000 this season alone . . . " Now there's a stupid conclusion.  The Examiner reporter fails to mention that the price of Friedgen's buy out will be $2 mil. Fear the deficit?  Fear abysmal math skills.


----------



## Sackalot

Good example of stupidity in the organization itself.  Whomever decided to increase the size of the stadium...stupid decision.  I have to assume that the $500,000 deficit comes from the institution itself overspending on supposed "improvements" to the facility and the costs associated with that.  Also, this appears to be a situation where the institution perceived an increase in revenue, in mentioing the luxury box situation.  Maryland thought they would sell or rent those luxury boxes out and the intended outcome was to make more money, but since they didn't sell those boxes they say, "we lost money".  When really they didn't lose money, they just didn't make a profit.  It sounds to me like in every department of an instutition of higher learning, the decisions are being made by people with no business sense whatsoever.  In this instance, be realistic!!  Who is going to buy or rent a luxury box to watch Maryland play football?  No one obviously...

So in short, I agree.  Waste of money, poor decisions and pathetic excuses for a poorly run athletic program...I am not in the know in this situation, but I would have to question the abilities of the athletic director, the president, the board of trustees, etc. because somewhere someone or a group of people made decisions that affected the outcome of this situation and it was not the coach.


----------



## 4Q_iu

garyd63 said:


> Fear the deficit.  Good line. first you have recognize the existence of the defict. Most schools refuse to so they continue to make bad decisions about their programs.
> 
> "Terps couldn't afford to stay with Friedgen after losing $500,000 this season alone . . . " now there's a stupid conclusion.  The Examiner reporter fails to mention that the price of Friedgen's buy will be $2 mil. Fear the deficit?  Fear abysmal math skills.



It's not abysmal math skills.  Maryland is 'betting on the come...' -- they're betting (~$2M) that they can fire Friedgen and hire a NEW coach to push them to the 'next level.'


----------



## garyd63

More of the same.  Ho-hum.  Next  excuse, rationalization, explanation, defense, diversion, digression, denial . . .  



> December 23, 2010
> Ohio State Players, Including Pryor, Suspended for Five Games in 2011
> By PETE THAMEL
> 
> The latest incident in a 2010 college football season defined by suspensions, investigations and controversy has assured that a cloud of scandal will hang over the 2011 season.
> 
> The N.C.A.A. on Thursday suspended five Ohio State players, including quarterback Terrelle Pryor and three other starters, for five games next season for accepting improper benefits. They are, however, eligible to play in the Sugar Bowl on Jan. 4, when the Buckeyes will face Arkansas.
> 
> The violations included selling memorabilia like Big Ten championship rings and accepting discounted prices from the owner of a tattoo parlor in Columbus, Ohio.
> 
> “These are significant penalties based on findings and information provided by the university,” said Kevin Lennon, the N.C.A.A. vice president of academic and membership affairs.
> 
> While Ohio State will appeal the length of the suspensions, the news was a serious blow to one of college football’s premiere programs. Pryor, who came to Ohio State as one of the most celebrated high school football recruits in recent memory, is the biggest star on campus and would have been a favorite to win the Heisman Trophy next season. . . .
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/24/sports/ncaafootball/24buckeyes.html?_r=1


----------



## garyd63

Whose naughty and whose nice?  Or is the question: Who really cares?  The beat goes on.



> December 23, 2010
> Ohio State Players, Including Pryor, Suspended for Five Games in 2011
> By PETE THAMEL
> 
> The latest incident in a 2010 college football season defined by suspensions, investigations and controversy has assured that a cloud of scandal will hang over the 2011 season.
> 
> The N.C.A.A. on Thursday suspended five Ohio State players, including quarterback Terrelle Pryor and three other starters, for five games next season for accepting improper benefits. They are, however, eligible to play in the Sugar Bowl on Jan. 4, when the Buckeyes will face Arkansas.
> 
> The violations included selling memorabilia like Big Ten championship rings and accepting discounted prices from the owner of a tattoo parlor in Columbus, Ohio.
> 
> “These are significant penalties based on findings and information provided by the university,” said Kevin Lennon, the N.C.A.A. vice president of academic and membership affairs.
> 
> While Ohio State will appeal the length of the suspensions, the news was a serious blow to one of college football’s premiere programs. Pryor, who came to Ohio State as one of the most celebrated high school football recruits in recent memory, is the biggest star on campus and would have been a favorite to win the Heisman Trophy next season. . . .
> 
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/24/sports/ncaafootball/24buckeyes.html?_r=1


----------



## Jason Svoboda

How do you repost the same exact article? You don't even keep track of the slop you're cut/pasting in here, so why should anyone else care?


----------



## garyd63

My bad.  No, never mind, take your choice.


----------



## garyd63

“Who can blame the college man for harboring the desire to win? No one. But it is more than that: to win at any cost — that is the source of the present deplorable condition of intercollegiate athletics.”

This piercing truth was written by  Henry Beach Needham over a century ago in _McClure’s_, the famous muckraking  magazine that fingered filth in our food and the abuses of monoplies.  Needham’s sensational two-part article, “The College Athlete,” exposed the brutality and scandalous practices then engulfing the college game of football.  The article led to reforms and the founding of the NCAA.  The deaths on the field (18 in 1905) and the deals beyond the sidelines tapered off but never stopped.

Today the “win at any cost” ethic that it is the air and food of college athletics can be seen in bloated budgets, stratospheric coaches salaries, gambling, agent’s contracts replacing course syllabi, young athletes exploited and discarded like yesterday’s score cards and higher education’s leadership–presidents and trustees–caving to fanatical fans and the corporate sports biz.

Enjoy the New Year’s Bowl games.  We’re all paying a heavy price for these hours of entertainment.
______________
for a fuller account of Needham and the reforms of a century past, go here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/26/opinion/26davis.html?_r=1&ref=opinion


----------



## garyd63

Great letter in the NYTimes Sports section today:



> January 1, 2011
> Better Choices for Big Ten
> 
> To the Sports Editor:
> 
> Re “Big Ten’s Name Game Finds Few Fans,” Dec. 22: Call it the Big Tent, and they could absorb an infinite number of teams. which may, of course, be their ultimate goal. And the divisions? How about Sound and Fury, for what the whole enterprise signifies, academically? Or maybe Slings and Arrows, for the outrageous fortunes the coaching staffs command? Or Agony and Ecstasy, where the better teams are in the latter division in each sport, but can be relegated to the other (as in British soccer) if they start losing more games. Rich Shereikis
> 
> Evanston, Ill.



After this weekend's bowl debacle, maybe the powers that be will see the light, recognize the athletic arms race is a mug's game, and will propose a  return to the glory days of the Big Nine and work down from there.


----------



## Sackalot

Gary,,

You have officially lost me on this letter that you just posted??


----------



## garyd63

Sackalot--
Here's how I read this clever and insightful take on the Big Ten's recent expansion and naming game. They're calling the divisions "Legends" and "Leaders," right? Currently the coaching Legends last a couple of years and then are paid off millions; the Leaders (players) sell their jerseys for tattoo money  (and university presidents) just sell out.



> Call it the Big Tent, and they could absorb an infinite number of teams. which may, of course, be their ultimate goal.



Big Tent is a nice play on the old name which hasn't been ten teams for awhile but math skills are not a part of the league's play book.  Expansion as a solution to what?  Oh right, bigger is always better in the arms race of Big Buck programs.   



> And the divisions? How about Sound and Fury, for what the whole enterprise signifies, academically? Or maybe Slings and Arrows, for the outrageous fortunes the coaching staffs command?



Nice literary references here--as Shakespeare put it" "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing"  and again, check your "Hamlet" for the "slings and arrows" reference. As with the deficient math skills, the Big Tent, Big Buck boys need to sit in on a literature class now and then.  I think Joe Paterno might have majored in English in college. There's the last of the breed.



> Or Agony and Ecstasy, where the better teams are in the latter division in each sport, but can be relegated to the other (as in British soccer) if they start losing more games.



Agony and Ecstasy is of course the title of Irving Stone's novel about Michelangelo and the Sistine Chapel. His team of artists created a wonder that will last as long as civilization doesn't totally lose its mind. Seasons in the Big Tent come and go, in perspective they all look the same.  Much more agony than ecstasy in the whole Big Tent enterprise.

My concluding remark was the the hope that instead of adding to the Big Tent's costly dimensions true leaders would step up and move the Titanic in a 180 degree direction. This would make these true Leaders, Legends equal to the great Robert Hutchins who took the U. of Chicago out this silliness and into the greatness of a world class university.


----------



## landrus13

Do you realize that you are like the only one that posts in here?


----------



## Sackalot

Gary, I get the references, I see what the letter is saying.  The references from Shakespeare are comical and well placed.  Again, I see what is being attempted by this letter and by the side of the arguement against what you call Big Buck athletics.  I just simply am not of the mind that because one "side of the house" does this that the other side is affected.  This is not a cause and affect situation (in most cases), that is due to the money, of course.  And that is your biggest issue and most likely every person posting has the same issue.  Money...some think to much is spent and some think that too little is spent.  At some schools WAY, WAY to much is spent and unethical situations are rampant.  But at most schools that is not the case...it is certainly not the case at ISU.  

And I am disappointed Gary, yesterday or the day before some big news about an athlete at Georgia or some other school hit the AP.  I don't even remember the entire story but I figured you would be all over that one.


----------



## garyd63

> And I am disappointed Gary, yesterday or the day before some big news about an athlete at Georgia or some other school hit the AP. I don't even remember the entire story but I figured you would be all over that one.



I really try not to be hard on specific kids who are exploited by this system.  They are willing, misled, peer-pressured victims.  It's a system that in far too many cases creates young men who feel especially entitled to whatever they can grab-- money, women, status, fan favors, academic corner-cutting.  Who would be surprised that some make wrong choices?  They've been set up for it from fifth grade.

And what do you make out of the Michigan football coach drama. No, not the fact that another expensive buy out is going to take place.  I'm referring to the reports I read about a number of players and some recruits who will either leave or not attend Michigan because they are concerned about a change in the offensive system under a new coach.  People tell me this happens all the time. Is this true?  If it is true, doesn't such a practice once again show the bankruptcy of the whole "student-athlete" myth?  Isn't it fair on my part to call this more evidence of the existence of the "athlete-student" in the Big Buck Programs?


----------



## Sackalot

As a professional in higher education, does the exact same thing not happen with students?  Do they not come to campus at Harvard to study pre-law and decide they don't like the professor, or they don't like the new department head or that they don't like the campus and transfer.  Do students not change majors and switch to a different school?  Is it not the same thing in football or other sports?  As an undergrad and graduate student, if I encountered a professor that I did not like, did not find to be a valuable educator I dropped his/her course...I invested in my education to learn and if the prof was not teaching or did not meet my expectations I moved on to something different.  

Once again, I can't disagree that it is a problem.  But when you put it into a contextual comparison to what a non student athlete within their own education would do...it isn't much different.  In my own personal experience I changed majors simply because the head of the department in which I was studying left to move on to a much better position at Ohio State and I knew that I did not want anything to do with his replacement, so I switched to a different major before he even took charge of the department.  You can call that silly or immature...but then students do that type of thing all the time.  They literally do it everyday...trust me I see it, heck I sign off on it because that is part of my job


----------



## 4Q_iu

Sackalot said:


> As a professional in higher education, does the exact same thing not happen with students?  Do they not come to campus at Harvard to study pre-law and decide they don't like the professor, or they don't like the new department head or that they don't like the campus and transfer.  Do students not change majors and switch to a different school?  Is it not the same thing in football or other sports?  As an undergrad and graduate student, if I encountered a professor that I did not like, did not find to be a valuable educator I dropped his/her course...I invested in my education to learn and if the prof was not teaching or did not meet my expectations I moved on to something different.
> 
> Once again, I can't disagree that it is a problem.  But when you put it into a contextual comparison to what a non student athlete within their own education would do...it isn't much different.  In my own personal experience I changed majors simply because the head of the department in which I was studying left to move on to a much better position at Ohio State and I knew that I did not want anything to do with his replacement, so I switched to a different major before he even took charge of the department.  You can call that silly or immature...but then students do that type of thing all the time.  They literally do it everyday...trust me I see it, heck I sign off on it because that is part of my job



Sure it's similar but how often as the TribStar or IndyStar or ESPN reported endlessly that Susie Q or Joe Cool QB has changed their major from BIO to CHEM because their favorite prof was nudged out of the science department in favor of a younger prof from Ivy Tech?

Again, I'm sure it happens BUT no one reports it because no one cares.

"80,000 people don't show up on a Saturday afternoon to watch a chemistry test." Bear Bryant.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Sackalot said:


> As a professional in higher education, does the exact same thing not happen with students?  Do they not come to campus at Harvard to study pre-law and decide they don't like the professor, or they don't like the new department head or that they don't like the campus and transfer.  Do students not change majors and switch to a different school?  Is it not the same thing in football or other sports?  As an undergrad and graduate student, if I encountered a professor that I did not like, did not find to be a valuable educator I dropped his/her course...I invested in my education to learn and if the prof was not teaching or did not meet my expectations I moved on to something different.
> 
> Once again, I can't disagree that it is a problem.  But when you put it into a contextual comparison to what a non student athlete within their own education would do...it isn't much different.  In my own personal experience I changed majors simply because the head of the department in which I was studying left to move on to a much better position at Ohio State and I knew that I did not want anything to do with his replacement, so I switched to a different major before he even took charge of the department.  You can call that silly or immature...but then students do that type of thing all the time.  They literally do it everyday...trust me I see it, heck I sign off on it because that is part of my job



Well said Sack.  It matters little whether it is "student-athlete" or athlete-student" and long as the student is a priority to the individual.  Changing majors is common.  I dropped my original major and minor and picked up a double major.  When I changed majors I considered transferring to Purdue or Ball State.  I checked their programs and found no reason to change schools.  After graduation my career choice led me in a slightly different, but related direction, and I took a few more classes to pick up a third major and my graduate work.  I had multiple opportunities to change schools and decided not to.  If some of my professors had left Terre Haute for Muncie or West Lafayette I very well may have followed.  I see little if any difference in this and a coaching change leading to a transfer by a student-athlete.


----------



## garyd63

I always thought you received a letter for playing football, etc. and a diploma and degree for completing a course of study in a field of recognized and developed scholarship.  Isn't that why participation in sports is called an "extra-curricular" activity?  Interestingly, I've heard that it's harder to change sports than majors.  Is this true?


----------



## Sycamore Proud

In my case changing majors was easy.  I picked majors I had interests in and aptitudes for.  I could have picked totally different majors that would have been disastrous.  It would seem that changing sports could be much like that for some athletes.  In other words, it depends entirely on the person.


----------



## Sackalot

one can easily argue that sports are extra cirricular, I would argue that they, like involvement in a student organization are Co-cirricular.  I argue that because I learned intellectually from my courses, I learned life lessons that are just as important from my involvement in student organizations.  I will never belelive that you learn how to effectively lead or how to inspire others, etc. from a book or from a lecture.  It is a learned trait from experience.  And one gains that experience while on a college campus from their Co-Cirricular activities.  These are just as important as the learning within the classroom.  It is the holistic experience that is of value to the majority of college students.  

Thus, I argue that most "organized" activities that students become involved with are Co-cirricular activities because they supplement the traditional "in class" education.  Athletics does this for the the student athletes.  And yes a student athlete receives a letter for playing sports, just like a fraternity member receives "letters" for being a member.  That doesn't mean that it is to be thrown to the side as unimportant or considered "extra".  What it simply means is that your education from an institution of higher education, the diploma, is supplemented by a student's involvement in Co-cirricular activities such as student organizations and/or Athletics.  With the current economic climate and lack of jobs for College grads out there, the college grad that distinguishes themselves through their invovlments, their experiences while on campus will have, as a general rule, a better chance of employment over a non involved student.  Sure, purely academic positions could care less, but that is less than 10% of the job market.  The average student needs Co-cirricular activities to have a well rounded education and athletics provides just that.


----------



## garyd63

Enjoy the Auburn-Oregon game next Monday. Here's part of the back story. And I'm still waiting to read one single story about Cam Newton that mentions what that young man is majoring in while pursuing a degree at Auburn as a student-athlete.



> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/06/sports/ncaafootball/06auburn.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper
> 
> January 5, 2011
> Auburn Is First in One Ranking, 85th in Another
> By PETE THAMEL
> 
> PARADISE VALLEY, Ariz. — In the aftermath of a football academic scandal at Auburn in 2006 that caused two department heads to step down and the N.C.A.A. to investigate, university officials are no longer bragging — or even talking — about the team’s once-stellar scholastic record.
> 
> Auburn’s top-ranked football team, which is preparing to play Oregon in Glendale, Ariz., for the national title on Monday, has tumbled in the N.C.A.A.’s most important academic measurement to No. 85 from No. 4 among the 120 major college football programs. . . .


Even more alarming are these two bits of information:



> Among all the bowl teams this season, Auburn has the highest disparity in the graduation rates between white players (100 percent) and black players (49 percent), according to a study at the Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sport at the University of Central Florida.


and this:



> As for Gundlach [the prof who revealed the Auburn  athletics/academic scandal in 2004], his fate was not uncommon for a whistle-blower. He left the university two years ago because of what he called “an ongoing sense of discomfort” after his revelations. He received dozens of hate calls and letters from Auburn fans. Although the university was unable to dismiss the tenured Petee — he is now a consultant for Auburn University at Montgomery — Gundlach said he was proud of exposing the academic fraud.
> 
> “The things that I did in the process of going out was one of the best things I’ve ever done for Auburn,” he said. “In the long run, it will eventually do more.”
> 
> When asked about the decline in the Academic Progress Rate, he chuckled and said, “I consider that the Gundlach effect.”


----------



## garyd63

> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/sports/ncaafootball/09boosters.html?ref=sports
> 
> January 8, 2011
> Auburn’s Kingmaker Isn’t Sharing in the Moment
> By PETE THAMEL and KYLE WHITMIRE
> 
> PARADISE VALLEY, Ariz. — With the Auburn football job open in December 1992, Mike Lude, then the university’s athletic director, interviewed a stellar group of candidates: North Carolina’s Mack Brown, Southern California’s Larry Smith and West Virginia’s Don Nehlen.
> 
> But Lude and the hiring committee were most impressed by a long-shot candidate, Terry Bowden, the little-known coach at Samford in Birmingham, Ala.
> 
> Years later, Lude found out why Bowden, who ultimately won the job, was so prepared for the interview. Bowden told him that the Auburn superbooster Bobby Lowder, who had sat in on other candidates’ interviews, had prepped Bowden in his hotel room the night before his meeting with Auburn officials.
> 
> That is a prime example of the influence, mystery and ambition of Lowder, a member of Auburn’s board of trustees who has donated tens of millions of dollars to the athletic department. . . .



And doesn’t every Big Buck  program have or want to have a booster-controller-moneyman just like Lowder?  This is how you put the BIG in Big Buck Programs.  This is how fine schools cave-in to entertainment appendages having nothing to do with the educational mission of the school.  Really disgusting.


----------



## Sackalot

isolated incident...sure it has and continues to happen, but that is one specific example of an ethical situation where moeny is more important than doing what is "fair and right".


----------



## garyd63

You really don't mind if I quote you in support of my position? 



> "sure it has and continues to happen, but that is one specific example of an ethical situation where moeny is more important than doing what is "fair and right".


----------



## Sackalot

And you don't mind if I quote myself in contrast to your position?

"isolated incident"  

Yes it happens and it will happen in every facet of business and life.  Unethical behavior is present in every facet of life.  What I am saying is that when this particular situation occurs, it is bad, but that doesn't mean that all college sports are bad.  whatever...


----------



## garyd63

> http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-01-06/list-of-early-entries-into-the-nfl-draft
> 
> List of early entries into the NFL draft
> PUBLISHED Thursday, Jan 6, 2011 at 9:42 pm EST
> SN Icon Sporting News
> 
> Underclassmen who have announced their intention to enter the 2011 NFL draft:
> 
> Akeem Ayers, LB, UCLA
> 
> Da’Quan Bowers, DE, Clemson
> 
> DeAndre Brown, WR, Southern Mississippi
> 
> Brandon Burton, CB, Utah
> 
> Jurrell Casey, DT, USC
> 
> Tandon Doss, WR, Indiana
> 
> Darren Evans, RB, Virginia Tech
> 
> Blaine Gabbert, QB, Missouri
> 
> AJ Green, WR, Georgia
> 
> Tori Gurley, WR, South Carolina
> 
> Brandon Harris, CB, Miami
> 
> Vidal Hazelton, WR, Cincinnati
> 
> Thomas Keiser, LB, Stanford
> 
> Ryan Mallett, QB, Arkansas
> 
> Jerrell Powe, NT, OLE Miss
> 
> Kyle Rudolph, TE, Notre Dame
> 
> Torrey Smith, WR, Maryland
> 
> Tyron Smith, OT, USC
> 
> Jordan Todman, RB, UConn
> 
> Muhammad Wilkerson, DT, Temple
> 
> Shane Vereen, RB, California
> 
> J.J. Watt, DE, Wisconsin
> 
> Aaron Williams, CB, Texas
> 
> Randall Cobb, WR, Kentucky
> 
> Cam Newton, QB, Auburn
> 
> Will Hill, S, Florida
> 
> Nick Fairley, DT, Auburn




Is this list longer or shorter than last year’s?  or next year’s?  How does it stack up against a list of basketball or baseball players jumping from the minor leagues to (in their dreams) the majors?  What does this say about the “scholar-athlete” label?


----------



## garyd63

Five knowledgeable (I presume) sports writers comment here on--Surprise!–Cam Newton turning pro.  Not one mentions what this strapping lad was studying while in several schools.  In fact, I haven’t run across this apparently meaningless background info in any of the many columns I’ve read about Mr. Newton.  You have to wonder if he was asked for this information if Cam would have an answer.  Probably not.  He’d just give the reporter his big smile.  And the journalist (sic) would report that, again, “Cam Newton smiles!”  Thanks for nothing collegiate sports press.  



> http://cfn.scout.com/2/1039410.html
> 
> CFN Analysis - Cam Newton To Turn Pro
> Auburn QB Cam Newton
> 
> By Staff
> CollegeFootballNews.com
> Posted Jan 14, 2011
> 
> By: Russ Mitchell
> 
> What will be Cam’s lasting legacy?
> 
> Depends from what part of the country you hail.. . .
> 
> For those of you outside the south, it’s important to understand that right or wrong, all that matters down here when it comes to college football is winning on the field.
> 
> More than that, lip service is paid to academics and running a clean program. Certainly there are administrators and even coaches that take both of these endeavors quite seriously. But speaking in a world of majorities, what matters to southern football fans is the final score on the field, not the final score off it.
> 
> Certainly graduating your players is nice, and keeping them out of jail a bonus. But if the latter was somehow a defining criteria, Florida would have no national championships under Meyer, a coach who would have been dismissed long before last year’s drama. . . .


----------



## Sackalot

i don't think anyone will disagree that Cam Newton is the next Reggie Bush situation.  Information will come out years from now that proves he broke the rules and that unethically he took money, etc.  But again that is not the norm, rather a situation where a high profile athlete is using the system to move from one point in his career to another and stopping off in college to do that.  

As far as his major, he is majoring in making common sense decisions.  Stay in college and get paid his little housing allowance and possibly get some "kickbacks" from alumni or declare for the draft, get drafted and sign a 20 million dollar contract.  Common sense, something that isn't taught at an institution of higher learning tells everyone with any...that he should go get the money.  If he invests it right, he can buy a college and teach whatever he wants.    Like the movie Accepted, he could create a class called common sense!!!


----------



## garyd63

> UConn says talks continue with unhappy donor
> 
> January 26, 2011 05:43 PM EST | AP
> 
> STORRS, Conn. — University of Connecticut officials have no plans to cut ties with a donor who has demanded the return of $3 million because he felt he was not adequately consulted in the hiring of a new football coach.
> 
> Interim President Philip Austin and Board of Trustees Chairman Lawrence McHugh told the Hartford Courant that they had phone conversations with the donor, Robert Burton, on Tuesday.
> 
> Speaking to reporters before a board meeting on Wednesday, McHugh said he hopes the school's relationship with Burton isn't destroyed over one issue.
> 
> Austin said he was comfortable with the way Athletic Director Jeff Hathaway handled the hiring of football coach Paul Pasqualoni, a process that led Burton to demand that his family's name be removed from the school's football complex.


_____________________

“Common sense” would ask this question:  Why should any university listen to demands from a jock sniffing millionaire?  Would money hungry Austin and McHugh be all right with a donor who had donated $3 mil to the Physics Department, having a say in who should become the head of the department?  Who should be promoted?  How the class schedules of the faculty in Physics would be organized?  Only in Sport World U. does this kind of crapola take place.  Disgusting.


----------



## garyd63

And this just in from Iowa.  Those off season workouts take a toll.  Worth it? Necessary? Or just plain ridiculous?  And just when does this "off season" become an "off season?"  Maybe this is why athlete-students Derrell Johnson-Koulianos and Adam Robinson found relief in drugs an inviting option.

___________________


> http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/football/ncaa/01/25/iowa-players-hospitalized.ap/index.html
> 
> IOWA CITY, Iowa (AP) -- The University of Iowa says 12 football players have been hospitalized for symptoms likely related to off season workouts.
> 
> The school has declined to release the names of the players being treated. It said in a statement released Tuesday that the players were taken to University of Iowa Hospitals and Clinics on Monday night. They are responding well to treatment and are in safe and stable condition, according to the school.
> 
> Iowa spokesman Steve Roe said privacy laws prevent officials from further comment.
> 
> "Coach Kirk Ferentz is out of town recruiting, but he is aware of the situation and is being kept abreast of the progress being made," Iowa athletic director Gary Barta said in a statement. "Our No. 1 concern is the safety of our student-athletes, so we are pleased with the positive feedback. Our next step is to find out what happened so we can avoid this happening in the future."
> 
> Iowa offensive lineman Julian Vandervelde, who recently graduated from the program and was a member of the team's leadership group, defended the Iowa's workout practices in an interview with The Associated Press.
> 
> "They are nothing if not concerned for the health of the players," Vandervelde said. "That's always the first priority, health and development. I mean workouts are never used to punish. It's always about improvement, and workouts are always well within the capabilities of the athletes asked to perform them."
> 
> Tuesday's announcement that a dozen players had been hospitalized was just the latest bad news to hit the program that just wrapped a disappointing 8-5 season.
> 
> Senior wide receiver Derrell Johnson-Koulianos was suspended for the Hawkeyes' Insight Bowl win over Missouri after an arrest on drug charges. Johnson-Koulianos pleaded guilty to marijuana possession while other drug charges against him were dismissed.
> 
> Running back Adam Robinson was dismissed from the team after being arrested for possession of marijuana in his hometown of Des Moines while on suspension for violating team rules.
> 
> Copyright 2011 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


----------



## DyedBlue

*Usc*

USC is appealing is Bush Era NCAA penalties trying to gets its bowl probation reduced and its scholarship reductions reduced from 10/yr to 5/yr.

Any bets on how that will turn out??


----------



## TH_Sycamore12

What's the point of this thread again? 

Oh right, nothing.


----------



## Sackalot

garyd63 said:


> _____________________
> 
> “Common sense” would ask this question:  Why should any university listen to demands from a jock sniffing millionaire?  Would money hungry Austin and McHugh be all right with a donor who had donated $3 mil to the Physics Department, having a say in who should become the head of the department?  Who should be promoted?  How the class schedules of the faculty in Physics would be organized?  Only in Sport World U. does this kind of crapola take place.  Disgusting.



So you are suggesting that within the politcal structure of any University that politics don't occur. That donors make "suggestions" and those don't happen in the Physics dept. or any department?  Really?  of course it does.  Donors can earmark their donation and make whatever stipulations they want.  It happen in every department on campus.  It isn't necessarily right or fair but it happens.  It isnt' in the media that it happens, but those that work on any campus can probably tell you about one or two instances where this type of thing happened...someone was promoted or placed in a position...


----------



## bent20

Maybe we should just give Garyd63 a blog. It would be easier to ignore and serve the same purpose. I haven't read any of this thread really, but I'm tired of seeing it bumped to the top of pub section over and over again. It's been three months now.


----------



## garyd63

It's a matter of how much influence and how pointed.  
For example, an endowed chair in history may carry with it the stipulation that this largesse go to establishing a position for a scholar-teacher in the field of medieval European history.  I know of no cases where such an endowment includes the requirement that the family donating this gift have any influence whatsoever on who, specifically, this endowed chair should or should not go to.  When the department members go through the process of choosing this scholar, this is where politics can play a part.  All very different from what happens with the rich alums who sit in the sky boxes and feel entitled to call the plays in the huddle.


----------



## garyd63

bent20 said:


> . . .  I haven't read any of this thread really, but I'm tired of seeing it bumped to the top of pub section over and over again. It's been three months now. . . .



bent20 proves the truth of the thread title AND the never ending flow of problems created out of the isolation and aggrandizement of college sports. S/he doesn't read this stuff and for three months it keeps coming at her/him. (And three months, six months or a year from now, will there be nothing for me to post? Anyone out there care to make a prediction?)   

I would say this to bent20, do you really think you're an informed fan of college sports if you just follow the scores, the standings, the awards?  Isn't there more to it than statistics?  I'm often told by critics that, like anything, there is a business side to college athletics.  I agree.  Most of what I post reveals in some fashion the seamy and unseemly side of college athletics's business side.


----------



## bent20

You've said your piece for those that care to hear it. Let's move on.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

garyd63 said:


> bent20 proves the truth of the thread title AND the never ending flow of problems created out of the isolation and aggrandizement of college sports. S/he doesn't read this stuff and for three months it keeps coming at her/him. (And three months, six months or a year from now, will there be nothing for me to post? Anyone out there care to make a prediction?)
> 
> I would say this to bent20, do you really think you're an informed fan of college sports if you just follow the scores, the standings, the awards? Isn't there more to it than statistics? I'm often told by critics that, like anything, there is a business side to college athletics. I agree. Most of what I post reveals in some fashion the seamy and unseemly side of college athletics's business side.


The problem is, and what you've ignored now time and time again, that very little of what you post is relevant or relates to Indiana State. Unless you start providing analysis or commentary on how/why what you're posting relates to Indiana State, I think bent is spot on.


----------



## TJames

*just create a spot for the good perfesser.....*

in the interests of being fair and equal....and call it "Gary's Anti-Athletics Rant".....and let him pontificate to all his fans and loyal readers on here.....he has become the "Preacher Max Lynch" of this website....telling us all of our transgressions and how we all "don't get it".......


----------



## Jon

I think the biggest issue that I have with this thread is the OP's attitude.  I guess I shouldn't assume too much, but I get the feeling that all of us know that College Athletics are corruptible by their very existance.  Anything involving this amount of money is corruptible.  Do I think that because some people involved in college sports are corrupt that we should get rid of it?  Absolutely not.  Look at all the students who have an opportunity to get a quality education because of their athletic ability.  Not all of them take advantage of that opportunity, but that's the fault of the student, not the university.

As far as sporting "scandals" are concerned, I can't really see how anyone is surprised that they happen.  People make dumb decisions every day in life, college athletics are no different.


----------



## garyd63

This is getting close to the “and a player to be named later” crapola we’re always hearing from GMs and other assorted CEOs in SportsBiz America.  Does that ever turn out good for the home team?



> Contract terms were not disclosed by ISU at press time. Prettyman was not sure on Wednesday night of the annual pay, but he did say that Miles’ new deal, “is an increase of what he had before,” and that Miles’ compensation, “brings him to the middle of the league pay-wise. He had been at the bottom.”
> 
> There were also no details of what a potential buyout clause would be if Miles chose to take another job before the contract ran out.  –Trib Star 1-27-2011



So you tell me, how can Prettyman NOT know how much he’s paying a staff member?  And just what is “the middle of the league pay-wise”?  I guess I’ll have to look for this basic info on sweatyleaks or wait until it trickles out through rumors and midnight press releases.  My prediction: Coach Miles will make more than any teacher at ISU–even those with 20 to 30 years of experience and twice as much as most.  I'm talking about educators who have proven they wanted to “be here” by staying here at ISU and doing the real business of a university, teaching and research.  And the last I looked, not a single prof at ISU has a buy out clause in their contract.


----------



## bent20

I wish I could say that all of my professors at ISU were top notch, but many were far from it. Teaching and research? Some of them were heavy on the "research" and I never saw them, but at least they usually had good TAs, who were better at teaching than many of the professors. Don't get me wrong, I had quite a few professors who were excellent, but many of those teachers you mention with 20 to 30 years of experience sit on their lazy butts and don't do a thing but collect their check. It's the same in high schools. The teachers with the biggest checks are sometimes the laziest and deserve to be fired. And before you assume I have a problem with teachers, just know that I come from a family of them. Two of my grandparents were teachers and I have more aunts, uncles and cousins in the field than I can count.

When I see what Miles has done to restore the success of the football team - something I imagine you're quite bitter about - I'm glad to see the man rewarded. 

As for Prettyman not knowing the numbers, I don't see any reason he'd have to hide it.
It's public information that anyone can easily get if they want to. Not everything is a conspiracy no matter how much you want it to be.


----------



## Bally #50

bent20 said:


> I wish I could say that all of my professors at ISU were top notch, but many were far from it. Teaching and research? Some of them were heavy on the "research" and I never saw them, but at least they usually had good TAs, who were better at teaching than many of the professors. Don't get me wrong, I had quite a few professors who were excellent, but many of those teachers you mention with 20 to 30 years of experience sit on their lazy butts and don't do a thing but collect their check. It's the same in high schools. The teachers with the biggest checks are sometimes the laziest and deserve to be fired. And before you assume I have a problem with teachers, just know that I come from a family of them. Two of my grandparents were teachers and I have more aunts, uncles and cousins in the field than I can count.
> 
> When I see what Miles has done to restore the success of the football team - something I imagine you're quite bitter about - I'm glad to see the man rewarded.
> 
> As for Prettyman not knowing the numbers, I don't see any reason he'd have to hide it.
> It's public information that anyone can easily get if they want to. Not everything is a conspiracy no matter how much you want it to be.


......and coaches are not paid from the same funding as professors. My guess is that this board that was set up by Dr. Bradley for Athletics under the auspices of the ISU Foundation has more to do with Trent's salary than anything. A high-paid coach does NOT take away for funding for academia. Because of that, they have more leeway in how a contract reads and how it can be written, i.e. buyouts, fring benefits, like club memberships, vehicles etc. These coaches that are making millions (not at ISU obviously) have NO bearing on the size of the pie being dedicated to academics.

Yes, Ron probably had a pretty good idea what his contract was going to look like but my guess is that he chose the easy way out because it hadn't been finalized and becuase of that, he chose to not answer it. It WILL be public info at some point anyway so he is not hiding anything.


----------



## Jon

Bally #44 said:


> ......and coaches are not paid from the same funding as professors. My guess is that this board that was set up by Dr. Bradley for Athletics under the auspices of the ISU Foundation has more to do with Trent's salary than anything. A high-paid coach does NOT take away for funding for academia. Because of that, they have more leeway in how a contract reads and how it can be written, i.e. buyouts, fring benefits, like club memberships, vehicles etc. These coaches that are making millions (not at ISU obviously) have NO bearing on the size of the pie being dedicated to academics.
> 
> Yes, Ron probably had a pretty good idea what his contract was going to look like but my guess is that he chose the easy way out because it hadn't been finalized and becuase of that, he chose to not answer it. It WILL be public info at some point anyway so he is not hiding anything.



This is all true.  A part of me wishes they came from the same pot so educators could be paid more...but...i know that's not how it would work, so I'm actually glad they're separate.


----------



## Sackalot

You, like everyone else will be able to determine exactly what Coach will make because he is a state employee.  It is certainly understandable that RP would not know the exact amount or simply didn't want to share it at the time of the interview...he has that right and really it is irrelevant as the info will be available shortly to the world.  

Yes, he will make more money than 99% of the professors on the campus if not 100%.  But 100% of the professors at ISU don't do what he does, just like he does't do what they do.  He works 365 days per year, he works all weekends, he travels for the university, he promotes the university and is just as much about marketing ISU as the actual marketing department, he promotes, he is an ambassidor, etc.  90% of the profs at ISU never work a weekend, are off in the summer, have approx. 15- 20 office hours per week, if a full load have 12 hours of class, if working in the summer they are paid on top of their salary, etc.  They do what they do, which is the work of the university too.  It is simply different.  Seldom does a professor work to promote the institution, seldom do profs attend anything that is not stipulated in their contract, attend a faculty senate meeting and this is discussed constantly (though some do attend functions and I am appriciative of them volunteering their time).  I am not putting profs at ISU down, I am only saying that comparing the work of a football coach at ISU to the work of the typical prof is just not a logical comparison.  They are completely different types of employees and both have their offerings that are valued differently and have differing affects on the institution.  The VPs make more than most if not all faculty, they offer a great deal to the institution that the faculty do not, as one example.


----------



## garyd63

Sackalot, this is so off on the work teacher-scholars do that I don't know where to start. And time, right now is too short.  Let me just say that the stacks of books and articles profs in the Arts and Sciences pour through in a year would make those game films coaches endlessly watch look like one trip to Blockbuster.


----------



## Sackalot

You suggest that I don't understand the work that faculty do...I certainly have a very strong understanding of what they do.  I have worked in higher education for several years.  What I am simply saying is that coaches do a great deal beyond coaching.  it is arguable what any person does to "earn" their salary and we coudl argue forever about that...the faculty at ISU are wonderful and should be paid more for their efforts, that is without question.  As I said I am not putting them down at all, what I am saying that what Coach Miles and his staff are doing is extremely valuable as well.  You might not like that, you might not agree with anything about athletics in its current state...and that is fine.  All I am saying is that the job a football coach does is not comparable to what a faculty member does.  they are completely different in everyway...one educates in a classroom, one educates on a field, one studies a specific field, one promotes the university through the efforts on that field and in the community, etc., etc.  

As for what profs read, articles they pour through, etc.  I am not discrediting that at all, in fact, as a graduate student I can attest to that myself, I have seen that.  And they are paid for doing that...are they not??


----------



## Jason Svoboda

garyd63 said:


> Sackalot, this is so off on the work teacher-scholars do that I don't know where to start. And time, right now is too short. Let me just say that the stacks of books and articles profs in the Arts and Sciences pour through in a year would make those game films coaches endlessly watch look like one trip to Blockbuster.


Some. That _*SOME*_ of the faculty pour through.

To everyone else: 

I'm not sure why Gary is here complaining besides the fact that he is anti-athletics. It seems to me that quite a few of the faculty are paid pretty damn well. They say this is 2009-10 data, but you can get an idea of what folks at State are earning.

http://www.indystar.com/data/government/state_salaries2008_search.shtml


----------



## Duff Tyler

Gary Daily is just living in a fantasy world, desperate for attention. For years, I've read his letters in the paper and his posts about how college athletics drains the life out of colleges and keeps students from achieving an education. They're baloney. And Jason is right, his cut and paste jobs about bigger universities' problems and scandals have nothing to do with ISU.

Let me make it very simple for you, Mr. Daily. I agree with a number of issues you've raised in the Tribune-Star regarding the wars, public smoking, etc. But on this topic, I do not.

I graduated with a broadcast journalism degree from Indiana State back in 2000. Did I get a full-ride athletic scholarship? No. I did not play sports. But sports has always been my passion. There were a lot of opportunities for me and others to get involved and not just as a "towel boy" as you've stated in your letters from the past.

I've traveled with teams from ISU on road trips as a play-by-play announcer and lent my services to the school during games and tournaments. I had a good relationship with the athletic department and it continued after I graduated.

I'm not saying that college came cheap for me. My student loans were a hefty expense, but I did not care. I wanted a degree and to make a decent living off it in my profession. I worked for it and earned it. And so should all those other students in the programs you've mentioned in previous posts. I would never point finger and cry foul just because a football or basketball player's tuition came free and mine did not. They have a talent that I didn't and they managed to profit on it. Good for them. Isn't that what we're all trying to do?


----------



## garyd63

I've been spending some time on the west coast.  California is planning to lay off 7000 teachers.  UCLA just hired a new Bruin football defensive coach.  Try as I might I couldn't find out what they are paying the guy.  I'm sure he's worth every penny he's getting.  So are those 7000 teachers who will be sitting on the sidelines while class size balloons and more and more eighth graders read at a fourth grade level.


----------



## KAPat1865

I move that we change the title of this thread to "Stuff Gary Likes to Talk About" :bigsmile:


----------



## region rat

garyd63 said:


> I've been spending some time on the west coast.  California is planning to lay off 7000 teachers.  UCLA just hired a new Bruin football defensive coach.  Try as I might I couldn't find out what they are paying the guy.  I'm sure he's worth every penny he's getting.  So are those 7000 teachers who will be sitting on the sidelines while class size balloons and more and more eighth graders read at a fourth grade level.



Based on the above they need to fire some parents and lay off the teachers based on merit and evaluations.


----------



## garyd63

long gone said:


> Based on the above they need to fire some parents and lay off the teachers based on merit and evaluations.



Oh really!  Always easy to point at parents and teachers when in truth our priorities in regard to educational investment are so totally out of whack. Those parents who see their kids as athletic scholarship material and fail to read to them every night are at fault.  And teachers who think tech fixes are a substitute for regular assignments carefully graded also need a reality check.  But athletics and technology are the sacred cows of the educational establishment.  Just look at the money schools spend on these frills.


----------



## garyd63

And the beat goes on . . . 



> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/25/sports/ncaabasketball/25coastal.html?ref=sports
> 
> February 24, 2011
> Coastal Carolina Struggles on Way to Tournament
> By PETE THAMEL
> 
> . . . On the court, Coastal Carolina had the nation’s longest winning streak — 22 games — and almost reached the top 25 this season.
> 
> But instead of emerging as a quirky team that could make a run in the N.C.A.A. tournament, Coastal Carolina has become the latest example of the underside of college athletics — a small college that dreamed big, took risks and is now paying the price. The N.C.A.A.’s enforcement staff is investigating Coastal Carolina’s leading scorer, and a flurry of off-the-court problems have left the Chanticleers with only seven scholarship players.
> 
> Two players are ineligible, their most talented player was dropped from the team after a fight, and their starting guard is injured. With only eight players dressing, Coastal Carolina (25-4) has lost two straight conference games and has gone from darling to desperate in a few weeks.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

garyd63 said:


> And the beat goes on . . .


 
What's this? Another story that has absolutely no relevance to Indiana State?


----------



## TJames

*can we just acknowledge that gary is far smarter than all of us.....*

and only his way is the answer.....to living such an idyllic life....contemplating our navels....singing cum-bay-yah.....hey, let's all have a group hug.....

banish all sports from college campuses....no more hackey sack.....be gone!!!!....

for every story that gary links about excessses in athletic departments at some college thousands of miles away from indiana state, someone should find and link stories that talks about the excessess of faculty members at colleges thousands of miles away...what's good for gary is good for everbody else.....


----------



## Sackalot

Coastal Carolina?  Really, a small North Carolina school located about 30 feet from the beach in Myrtle Beach?  Really, that is obviously a institution of higher education that is comparable to ISU?


----------



## garyd63

Coastal or USC, they, and everyone in between is a part of the Big Buck program empire.  Big sins and crimes or minor failings, they are all part of the Monster that is college athletics today. They all cost students and (in public schools) taxpayers money.  None contribute to the stated mission--education and research-- of the schools they pollute.  

Kum ba yah that while you flip through eighteen cable channels of sports and continue to live in a world of fantasy football, Big Dance fairy tales, and head injuries sending young men and women into life with a death sentence hanging over them.


----------



## region rat

garyd63 said:


> Oh really!  Always easy to point at parents and teachers when in truth our priorities in regard to educational investment are so totally out of whack. Those parents who see their kids as athletic scholarship material and fail to read to them every night are at fault.  And teachers who think tech fixes are a substitute for regular assignments carefully graded also need a reality check.  But athletics and technology are the sacred cows of the educational establishment.  Just look at the money schools spend on these frills.



Parenting and teaching/education comprise and foremost for all of this and is the key to fixing all of this.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Did GaryD teach you geography?? Coastal Carolina AND Myrtle Beach are in South Carolina!


----------



## Daveinth

Maybe he was talking about this Coastal Carolina 
http://www.coastalcarolina.edu/


----------



## TH_Sycamore12

garyd63 said:


> *Coastal* or USC, they, and everyone in between is a part of the *Big Buck program empire*.  Big sins and crimes or minor failings, they are all part of the Monster that is college athletics today. They all cost students and (in public schools) taxpayers money.  None contribute to the stated mission--education and research-- of the schools they pollute.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> CCU is not a "Big Buck Program".


----------



## region rat

garyd63 said:


> Coastal or USC, they, and everyone in between is a part of the Big Buck program empire.  Big sins and crimes or minor failings, they are all part of the Monster that is college athletics today. They all cost students and (in public schools) taxpayers money.  None contribute to the stated mission--education and research-- of the schools they pollute.
> 
> Kum ba yah that while you flip through eighteen cable channels of sports and continue to live in a world of fantasy football, Big Dance fairy tales, and head injuries sending young men and women into life with a death sentence hanging over them.



Sorry but I need to respond and my response to this is BS.  If it weren't for our liberal/progressive teachers who really have no clue as to what needs to be taught and so convoluted education is pathetic and embarrassing.  Look at all the other countries who have caught and exceeded our education institutions and expectations--again embarrassing and pathetic.  All this is related to parenting and teachers--or the lack of and these are the big costs and diminishing returns.  

What you forget about is the education that someone competing is sports gets and these are socialization, teamwork, competition, learning to deal with stress, coordination of mind and body, physical exercise, etc.


----------



## bent20

Can we retire this thread? Bumping it over and over again is a form of trolling.


----------



## garyd63

> What you forget about is the education that someone competing is sports gets and these are socialization, teamwork, competition, learning to deal with stress, coordination of mind and body, physical exercise, etc.



Check my posts and you will find that I have supported sports for all often and emphatically. I'm concerned with the Big Buck programs pile resources into an entertainment project that creates spectating not participating. All the good that comes from participation in sports should be for all the students, not just those on full rides.

And every program is a Big Buck program, it's all relative.


----------



## Callmedoc

Just ignore him lol


----------



## region rat

garyd63 said:


> Check my posts and you will find that I have supported sports for all often and emphatically. I'm concerned with the Big Buck programs pile resources into an entertainment project that creates spectating not participating. All the good that comes from participation in sports should be for all the students, not just those on full rides.
> 
> And every program is a Big Buck program, it's all relative.



Have a beer, dah!


----------



## Sackalot

I meant South...my bad...I just typed it wrong.


----------



## garyd63

So which line are they going to take:
1. everyone deserves a second (third,fourth) chance,
2. we don't check,
3. this is not a good thing (and . . . ?)

GO HERE   http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7358284n&tag=mg;eveningnews


----------



## 4Q_iu

garyd63 said:


> So which line are they going to take:
> 1. everyone deserves a second (third,fourth) chance,
> 2. we don't check,
> 3. this is not a good thing (and . . . ?)
> 
> GO HERE   http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7358284n&tag=mg;eveningnews



How is this issue any different from the (unreported/under-reported) number of general college students across the country; including those who are receiving both MERIT- and NEED-based financial aid?


----------



## Sackalot

no student at any school that I am aware of does any kind of criminal background check at all for the general student populatoin.  For any student to receive federal financial aid such as a Pell Grant or Student loans they cannot be convicted of a felony while using said financial aid.  So the student can have been convicted of a felony in their past but cannot be convicted while in school or they lose their financial aid.  Why should a student athlete be treated differently than any other student per the federal Department of Education standards?

It isn't a good report in general, but doesn't change anything.


----------



## garyd63

$1.6 may be small potatoes at UConn unless that is you're a student with loans paying the freight for all of this boola-boola with your moola-moola.  
And this is an old story.  Schools regularly lose money on bowl appearances.  It's interesting that Presidents and Trustees and backroom accountants regularly turn these losses on their heads, calling them "intangible" good will investments.  It's only when truly educational programs at universities fail to "pay off" that the bottom line becomes hard and fast and programs like philosophy, art, English are cut back in terms of faculty and support. No slack is shown for a major that fails to lead directly to larger classes and a job for grads.  The contribution to the intellectual and artistic climate at the school is worth nothing.  The long term value of research and the impact of the humanities on the minds and values of students for life are invisible, meaningless.  Put it on a scoreboard and ah, there's a payoff you can see and talk about--at least for a week or so.  



> March 3, 2011
> Fiesta Bowl Cost UConn $1.6 Million
> By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
> 
> Connecticut said it lost more than $1.6 million on its trip to the Fiesta Bowl. In a report filed this week with the N.C.A.A., the university said it had total Fiesta Bowl expenses of $4,280,998 and received $2,523,200 from the Big East, which splits bowl game revenue among its members.
> 
> The biggest loss came from the sale of game tickets. UConn had to buy $3,349,835 worth of tickets, but had only $676,248 in ticket sales.


----------



## Sackalot

there is no question that this example is silly and wasteful and a problem. But what does this have to do with ISU?  We are not going to any bowls, we are not losing money, etc.


----------



## garyd63

Sackalot--We certainly aspire to go to bowls, to go mad in March, and to fill glass cases with trophies.  This all costs money, some would even say Big Bucks to play with the Big Buck Boys.
And ISU does lose money year after year on athletics.  I've shown the figures on this many times.  
If people remain in denial, if the Athletic Department, if the administration, if the media, refuse to stare at the facts staring them in the face on the dismal finances of college sports in general and ISU in particular, I guess I shouldn't be surprised and/or outraged.  I've read the Brafman's _Sway: The Irresistable Pull of Irrational Behavior_.  I know what they call "diagnosis bias," our blindness to all evidence that contradicts our initial assessment of a person or situation, rules when it comes to college sports.  Given this, I still see no reason to give into such insidiously destructive irrationality.  Higher education is at bottom a search for Truth. It is based on the application of reason to the best data that can be collected in service to Truth and, ultimately, understanding and the betterment of humanity.


----------



## Sackalot

By that rationale then...higher education, the search for truth as you say...is a losing battle itself.  It is not sustainable without infusions of cash from the state, alumni, corporate grants, etc.  It loses money every year as well, does it not?

And we do not aspire to go to bowls, ISU is not part of the BCS...we don't go to bowls.


----------



## Eleven

garyd63 said:


> And ISU does lose money year after year on athletics.  I've shown the figures on this many times.
> If people remain in denial, if the Athletic Department, if the administration, if the media, refuse to stare at the facts staring them in the face on the dismal finances of college sports in general and ISU in particular, I guess I shouldn't be surprised and/or outraged.



If you simply look at $$ spent vs $$ taken in through the gates... yes.
There are those that truly believe that it is akin to advertising your school.

Our Marketing department loses money for the university every year.... should we close them down too?


----------



## bent20

On a serious note, not that this thread really deserves one, UConn is caught up in a unique situation right now that makes this an unusual case. Most universities going to big bowls at least break even - not that we go to bowl games, as has already been noted. UConn had a good, not great year, in a bad conference. Their fans didn't want to travel across the country to watch their guys get blown out, which indeed happened. There is also anger right now over a feud between the AD and a booster and the coach's departure, which has left the state of the program in limbo.


----------



## Sackalot

those things will and do happen.  The bowl situation is out of control IMHO.  Too much money involved and it simply doesn't make sense to send a school like UCONN across the country...there are too many bowls and too much involved in the whole things.  No need for a team to "go to a bowl with a losing record or just above a 500 record" but it happens. 

The UCONN situation as I understand it and as you explained it, I agree it is unfortunate, but the institution itself should have refused the "bid" because it made no sense to go...they knew they wouldn't sell the tickets they needed too and they knew that they wouldn't make the money.  An instance from where I sit of "lets not disappoint the kids" and though I understand that mentality in 4th grade at the college level it is ridiculous.  If it doesn't make sense there is no reason to go to the bowl in the UCONN siutation.


----------



## bent20

No way they could refuse a BCS bowl game - a lesser bowl sure, but not a game as big as that. It's everything your team plays for. It is what it is.


----------



## garyd63

"Our Marketing department loses money for the university every year.... should we close them down too?"

Only if you think a School of Business doesn't need a Marketing Dept. as part of its educational, degree granting program.  And, AH!, doesn't that sound like a major difference to consider when you are thinking about Big Buck losses in Big Buck athletic departments?


----------



## Sackalot

garyd63 said:


> "Our Marketing department loses money for the university every year.... should we close them down too?"
> 
> Only if you think a School of Business doesn't need a Marketing Dept. as part of its educational, degree granting program.  And, AH!, doesn't that sound like a major difference to consider when you are thinking about Big Buck losses in Big Buck athletic departments?



Nope...your same arguement turned back on you.  All are a part of the university, all provide pieces of the whole at ISU and the overwhelming majority of schools in our country.  That wholistic education, not just research, not just lecture, not just experiential learning and not just co-curricular/extra-curricular education...the combination of all of those together is what forms true and beneficial education for the students at ISU.  Students that have the intent of going out into the workforce and creating a life for themselves after leaving ISU or any other university.

Inter-collegiant athletics are an important part of this...just like Greek life, just like SGA, just like honor societies, just like the Union Board, just like Dr. Smith's lecture, just like the students surveying campus for a project, just like Dr. Bradley and Mrs. Bradley having a lemonade stand in front of the Condit House....all are part of the wholistic college experience that is vitally important to preparing a student for the real world outside the walls.

Are there large schools with questionable ethics in terms of sports...absolutely.  Are their large corporations with questionable ethics when it comes to business...absolutely!  Are there large governments with questionable ethics...absolultely...but when there are questionable decisions and ethics violations those institutions need to be called to task.  The people of Egypt just did that, the people of Libya are trying too, the people of Iraq (with major help from us did).  Sports writers and the NCAA attempt to address those problems in athletics...some times it works out and some times further bad decisions are made...like in Libya's case where hundreds died, a bad decision on Gadafi's part.  Simple point...athletics a vibrant and important part of the wholistic college experience.  Students at ISU have for years in surveys pointed this as something that is missing from their college experience.  Athletics is not perfect but neither is the College of Arts and Science, neither is the research occuring in the science department...nothing is perfect but ISU does athletics right and do the best they can to meet all ethical requirements...period.  It may cost alot, but it is funded by outside sources in most cases.  And another thing...an academic function of hte university can seek funding such as grants from oh...about 3,000,000 sources including US gov't, lilly and hundreds of other endowments, corporations, alumni, students, local gov't etc.  Athletics can get funding from student fees, advertising and alumni.


----------



## Eleven

garyd63 said:


> "Our Marketing department loses money for the university every year.... should we close them down too?"
> 
> Only if you think a School of Business doesn't need a Marketing Dept. as part of its educational, degree granting program.  And, AH!, doesn't that sound like a major difference to consider when you are thinking about Big Buck losses in Big Buck athletic departments?



Depends... doesn't WISU Radio get used as part of the Communications department?  Graphics and Marketing should be involved in the sports promotion as well... Video, editing, etc.

It's all there if you want to make "experiential learning".


----------



## Eleven

I'll start another thread for this also... but here are some people that "get it"...
http://tribstar.com/news/x449485401/ISU-getting-reactions-from-beyond-the-court-from-MVC-success


----------



## bent20

Eleven said:


> I'll start another thread for this also... but here are some people that "get it"...
> http://tribstar.com/news/x449485401/ISU-getting-reactions-from-beyond-the-court-from-MVC-success



You beat me to it. Just read that story and this thread immediately came to mind.


----------



## garyd63

> TH Trib Star March 8, 2011
> ISU getting reactions from beyond the court from MVC success
> University expects to gain in reputation, fundraising



Yeah, I read this. I suggest you read it again. The "reactions" seem to be from the Big Buck Program sales personnel and the usual, to be expected, notes of congratulations to the AD and coaches.  Does any of this add up to the promised land?  Does it fulfill the hyperbola of another Trib Star booster story about "Dreams Coming True"?  These people are sounding like Miss America contestants when asked what they wished for:  "World Peace" is the predictable, insipid answer we hear.

Go Sycamores!  Final Four!  NCAA champs!  I wish it all would happen.  And so do 65 other teams in 2011. And 65 in 2012. . . .   And how many was it in 1979?  What this university and what any university is all about is not roundball. Money sports in colleges, at their best, only divert attention from the business they were founded to pursue--the education of students desiring an education.


----------



## True Blue

Gary.  Take yourself and your miserable life and piss off!  I'm done listening to you.  No one cares!


----------



## Sackalot

Gary, I find your most recent post enlightening. 

You say that "Money sports in colleges, at their best, only divert attention from the business they were founded to pursue--the educaiton of students desiring an education".  That I agree with.  It does divert the students from sitting in a classroom, it diverts them from archaic educational standards like lecture, it allows the students a break from the monotony of higher education while also teaching both the athletes and the fans leasons on teamwork, social interaction and about 50 other important aspects of life.  It provides netowrking opportunities between students and alumni, it provides for school spirit which has been sorely lacking at ISU in the past, it provides something for "most" to rally around and perhaps most importantly it provides an opening and opportunity for a school to have that conversation with potential students that want the entire college experience of which sports is often a major factor.  Of course this is all when colleges "do it right" and hold tight to their ethics and standards.

I know what you meant was that it takes away "resources" from true education...and that I completely disagree with you about.  But taking your statement at face value, it was enlightening because for one brief moment I thought to myself, "Gary is starting to come around and realize that education does not only occur in the classroom or from a book or from research."  But then I came back to reality.


----------



## BankShot

I can recall the dayz of Prof. Daily during the 70's, hacking around on the "new" tennis courts just N. of the Cunningham Library. Of course, like virtually all TH construction projects, these courts were ultimately _swallowed up _by coal mining ground subsidence activity!

What I'm saying is...Prof. Daily recognizes and acknowledges the benefit of physical exercise upon the health and well-being of mankind. He is a personal testament to this fact. His only criticism is the EXTREMISM of sport in America and it's displacement of critical value(s), education being ONE of them.

I'm curious...would Prof. Daily TODAY be "working out" in the Student Recreation Center, which now occupies the old tennis court location? Probably...


----------



## 4Q_iu

garyd63 said:


> Yeah, I read this. I suggest you read it again. The "reactions" seem to be from the Big Buck Program sales personnel and the usual, to be expected, notes of congratulations to the AD and coaches.  Does any of this add up to the promised land?  Does it fulfill the hyperbola of another Trib Star booster story about "Dreams Coming True"?  These people are sounding like Miss America contestants when asked what they wished for:  "World Peace" is the predictable, insipid answer we hear.
> 
> Go Sycamores!  Final Four!  NCAA champs!  I wish it all would happen.  And so do 65 other teams in 2011. And 65 in 2012. . . .   And how many was it in 1979?  What this university and what any university is all about is not roundball. Money sports in colleges, at their best, only divert attention from the business they were founded to pursue--the education of students desiring an education.



Note to Gary -- There are 68 teams in the NCAA tourney (of a possible 345 NCAA Div I teams) this season and for the foreseeable future.

In 1979 -- there were 40 schools.


----------



## garyd63

> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/10/sports/ncaafootball/10tressel.html?ref=sports
> 
> Tressel Is a Reminder of Why Rules Blur
> By PETE THAMEL
> Published: NYT  March 9, 2011
> 
> The richest detail about the latest scandal to puncture the piñata that the 2010-11 college sports year has become was buried deep in an Associated Press article Tuesday. . .



This underlines and expands on comments on “Jim Tressel suspended 2 games, fined” thread.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Go figure you'd post that and not this article Gary.

http://tribstar.com/opinion/x814632...ball-team-gets-assist-in-ISU-enrollment-score






Leave your poor cat alone man!


----------



## TH_Sycamore12

Gary and Skip Bayless should get together sometime. They're both so miserable in their sad pathetic lives.


----------



## Sackalot

Tressel was wrong...he lied and his ethics are of question in this matter.  Plain and simple.  He knew it was against the rules and knew what he should have done but he didn't do it.  

And lets not get into the conversation of why a student athlete can't sell their own personal property...but regardless rules were broken, investigations have occured and are on-going...it will be dealt with...end of story.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Sackalot said:


> Tressel was wrong...he lied and his ethics are of question in this matter.  Plain and simple.  He knew it was against the rules and knew what he should have done but he didn't do it.
> 
> And lets not get into the conversation of why a student athlete can't sell their own personal property...but regardless rules were broken, investigations have occured and are on-going...it will be dealt with...end of story.



As it stands now, I believe that Jim Tressel will be the big loser in the end.  Makes no difference whether you agree with the rule.  He knew about the violation.  He failed to act as required by rule.:krazy:   I think he's in deep trouble--and deservedly so.


----------



## BankShot

Not to jump on any _specific_ bandwagon, but these are the type of issues which undermine Prof. Daily's never-ending crusade for American's to restore CIVILITY to NCAA athletics.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/*The-Winners-Manual*/Jim-Tressel/e/9781414325699  

I guess Jimbo was simply hoping to promote his book sale!

Re: Bayless...gotta give the guy credit - he sure knows how to REINVENT himself after being driven out of town! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skip_Bayless


----------



## Sackalot

Sycamore Proud said:


> As it stands now, I believe that Jim Tressel will be the big loser in the end.  Makes no difference whether you agree with the rule.  He knew about the violation.  He failed to act as required by rule.:krazy:   I think he's in deep trouble--and deservedly so.



Yup...Tressel is screwed!


----------



## garyd63

Jason Svoboda said:


> Go figure you'd post that and not this article Gary.
> 
> http://tribstar.com/opinion/x814632...ball-team-gets-assist-in-ISU-enrollment-score
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leave your poor cat alone man!



Those are two scary foiled Vikings, Jason. Not as scary, however, as the super-fan Pope brothers warmed over research linking sports success to increased enrollments. 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3ykWbu2Gl0[/ame]

The “Flutie effect” has been cited again and again as the basis for enrollment bumps at various schools.  It has been pretty much discounted in regard to jumps at BC  (go to Wikipedia article)  after the great Doug Flutie’s heroics. There seems to have been some enrollment increases, short-run bounces, at a few other schools after bowl or Final Four wins. It’s always difficult to sort out the cause and effects behind these complex decisions.  There was no lasting “High Flying Bird” effect at ISU in the ‘8os. Only Notre Dame and Duke have used sports to not increase enrollments but to raise the quality and (deserved) academic reputations of their institutions.   

You also have to question the simplistic  hyperbola of equating a school’s increase in value in the eyes of the public based on an appearance in the Big Dance along with 67 other schools. I always wonder about students or parents of students who, having the economic resources to choose from a wide number of schools, would make the important decision of choosing a school on the basis of a sports team’s won-loss record.  Your choice of college should not be a Hail Mary pass.


----------



## Eleven

They don't base it SOLEY on athletics, but student life OUTSIDE the classroom DOES matter to most students... Not ALL, but most..


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

This thread should really have been closed a long time ago - you can ignore the members that post in it, to many of them that I enjoy hearing from - but you can't eliminate it from taking up space in most recently updated threads. Would love to see this peace out!


----------



## Sackalot

Eleven is absolutely correct.  No student SHOULD use athletics as their sole reasoning behind choosing a school...but it is a part of the whole.  And I will also say that it isn't about winning all the time.  It is however about the entire experience of an athletics program that does good things.  One simple example that I can personally give is the University of South Carolina.  The Gamecocks are not what I would call a perinnial winning program.  They are good, they typically have decent seasons in most sports (recently they have had pretty good years in football and in the past they have had great and absolutely horrible seasons).  However, it is not necessarily about winning, it about the experience...I have been to football games at South Carolina, the experience is just amazing!  And that experience is something that some, not all, college students desire as well as the academic piece of the puzzle. 

 Lets put it this way...if a student in Indiana is wanting to study Criminal Justice/Criminology they have several choices...Vincennes, ISU, Ball State, Ivy Tech, IU, and still others.  With ISU winning in Bball, football improving, etc.  It may cause many students to say, "I want to be at a school with sports that are doing well."  So they won't choose Vincennes, they won't choose Ivy Tech and they won't choose IU.  So it comes between Ball State and ISU...and ISU is doing much better than Ball State...choice ISU!  That one fictional example...but that happens all the time with students.  I meet with High School kids all the time...they rarely ask about academics because at that point in their lives they have so little life experience they don't know what they want to do or study...they can't make a decision on what school to attend in many cases because they just don't know...so they take into consideration many factors including cost, location, and social, living arrangements, yes...sports!  Having a winning team is great...but it goes beyond that.  The experience of athletics is what I see that most students that are interested in sports and the social aspect of attending said sporting events are seeking...with ISU athletics improving it can only have a positive effect on enrollment, retention and graduation rates...it sure as hell isn't going to hurt it!


----------



## Sackalot

I strongly urge everyone with children, and anyone involved in education to watch this video...it is 20 minutes long but well worth it!!!

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY[/ame]

And I hope that Gary will watch it too..


Though it has nothing to do with sports it has to do with education and the problems inherent with the current public system throughout the world.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Sackalot said:


> ...Lets put it this way...if a student in Indiana is wanting to study Criminal Justice/Criminology they have several choices...Vincennes, ISU, Ball State, Ivy Tech, IU, and still others.  With ISU winning in Bball, football improving, etc.  It may cause many students to say, "I want to be at a school with sports that are doing well."  So they won't choose Vincennes, they won't choose Ivy Tech and they won't choose IU.  So it comes between Ball State and ISU...and ISU is doing much better than Ball State...choice ISU!  That one fictional example...but that happens all the time with students.  I meet with High School kids all the time...they rarely ask about academics because at that point in their lives they have so little life experience they don't know what they want to do or study...they can't make a decision on what school to attend in many cases because they just don't know...so they take into consideration many factors including cost, location, and social, living arrangements, yes...sports!  Having a winning team is great...but it goes beyond that.  The experience of athletics is what I see that most students that are interested in sports and the social aspect of attending said sporting events are seeking...with ISU athletics improving it can only have a positive effect on enrollment, retention and graduation rates...it sure as hell isn't going to hurt it!



There are also kids who pick a school MAINLY b/c it's a 'great place to party...' (ie gloomington)

I know kids who were DETERMINED to go to gloomington to study engineering...

kids pick schools for a host of reasons; sports today, sports yesterday; what I want my diploma to say, where ALL of their friends go (isu-e)...

sometimes, it's actually about the "fit" (academics, social aspect, logistics and cost)


----------



## Sackalot

Thank you for reiterating what I just said...


----------



## Jason Svoboda

garyd63 said:


> The “Flutie effect” has been cited again and again as the basis for enrollment bumps at various schools. It has been pretty much discounted in regard to jumps at BC (go to Wikipedia article) after the great Doug Flutie’s heroics. There seems to have been some enrollment increases, short-run bounces, at a few other schools after bowl or Final Four wins. It’s always difficult to sort out the cause and effects behind these complex decisions. There was no lasting “High Flying Bird” effect at ISU in the ‘8os. Only Notre Dame and Duke have used sports to not increase enrollments but to raise the quality and (deserved) academic reputations of their institutions.
> 
> You also have to question the simplistic hyperbola of equating a school’s increase in value in the eyes of the public based on an appearance in the Big Dance along with 67 other schools. I always wonder about students or parents of students who, having the economic resources to choose from a wide number of schools, would make the important decision of choosing a school on the basis of a sports team’s won-loss record. Your choice of college should not be a Hail Mary pass.


So have you taken a look at their study or are you just going to blindly dismiss their work?


----------



## Callmedoc

O no it doesnt support gary's opinion so it's not correct.


----------



## TJames

*wonder what gary thought of that ivy league title game....*

between those two "big buck" athletic programs, harvard and princeton....princeton won on a last-second shot.....and earned a trip to the ncaa basketball tournament.....those harvard players sure seemed upset by losing...and those princeton players were awfully happy and excited....

so now princeton, an ivy league school, is playing in the same ncaa men's basketball tournament as the sycamores......

by the way...why didn't i spy gary holding a protest sign up at the ncaa selection party sunday afternoon????......i was waiting for him to show up and tell all of the 1,000 or so fans in attendance what a mistake they were making....but, alas, he didn't have the gumption to show up and man up......

he would have been mightily upset too that the athletic director received a standing ovation from the people in attendance......what were they thinking????.......


----------



## TH_Sycamore12

dgreenwell3 said:


> o no it doesnt support gary's opinion so it's not correct.



correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## garyd63

> so now princeton, an ivy league school, is playing in the same ncaa men's basketball tournament as the sycamores......


And your point is?



> he would have been mightily upset too that the athletic director received a standing ovation from the people in attendance......what were they thinking????.......



Gee, I thought they would all boo.


----------



## Sackalot

Gary, no comment on Sir Ken Robinson?  He basically is saying that your view of education is incorrect.  I thought for sure that you would have something to say on that??


----------



## Callmedoc

Sackalot said:


> Gary, no comment on Sir Ken Robinson?  He basically is saying that your view of education is incorrect.  I thought for sure that you would have something to say on that??



If it has valid points facts and disagrees with Garys opinion...it's incorrect lol


----------



## garyd63

I did watch the 20 minute TED lecture. Robinson is amusing and bright, but, in the final analysis, his points are obvious, even pedestrian.  No one I know in education is against "creativity."  That catch word includes much more than being a Billie Elliot or a Michael Jackson on the dance floor.  Every field of scholarship has a certain number of creative people.  That's why most universities include research in their mission statements.


----------



## TJames

*my point gary.....*

was that the so-called "educational elite" schools like harvard and princeton have successful athletic programs.....so if you are going to make comments about indiana state and its athletic programs (you dont think isu should support athletics), you should be consistent when it comes to other schools......


----------



## garyd63

So let's all transfer to Harvard and Princeton and have the best of all possible worlds?  

The Ivy's and the elites (take Williams as an outstanding example) have Big Buck Athletic Program problems related to their enrollment decisions.  Obviously with the size of their endowments they can hire coaches at  whatever price they choose to pay.  They cannot, however, hire players (through scholarships) that do not meet their academic standards.  How do they handle this?  Some think not very well.  If the entering class at, say, Princeton is limited to 700 (?), how can you make sure all sports are covered AND all athletic scholarships given out do not push a Math whiz or a future Nobelist off of the entrance rolls?  You can't.  You fudge the entrance requirements by giving preference to some athletes who do meet some kind of minimum academic standard but often fall short of the heights attained in the classroom by many other candidates.  I say this is bad. Some say this is good.  Parents and those students who lose a place in Princeton's frosh class to a merely above average student who is a wonderful Lacrosse player have their own views on this practice.

This is a far cry from the problems created by Big Buck Athletic Programs at schools such as ISU.


----------



## Callmedoc

You are kidding lol....Doesn't ISU consistently have some of the highest graduation rates in our conference? Gary I get your arument but in sports terms...you are talking about why we need a QB when we got Peyton Manning and he is 24.


----------



## garyd63

> Education secretary calls for NCAA tourney reform
> 
> Posted: Thursday, March 17, 2011 4:31 pm | Updated: 7:24 pm, Thu Mar 17, 2011.
> 
> U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan is backing a call from the Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics to toughen the academic requirements and revenue distribution system for NCAA postseason basketball.
> 
> A Knight Commission analysis released Thursday found that, over the past five years, nearly $179 million was earned for athletic conferences by tournament teams that weren't on course to graduate at least half their players.
> 
> The commission developed its report with help from research by the University of Central Florida's Institute for Diversity and Ethics that showed 10 of the 68 teams in the men's tournament this year didn't meet the NCAA's Academic Progress Rate goal of being on track to graduate at least 50 percent of their players. . . .



Syracuse is one of the ten that seems to have trouble, well, you know, getting full time players to be at least part-time students for part of the school year.  Maybe they should forfeit to ISU tomorrow night. When I was playing ball we called these guys "ringers."  Today they're "student athletes." At least until all those pesky graduation requirements get in the way.


----------



## garyd63

This is the source for the above comment”

http://www.journalreview.com/sports/article_570e9c03-201c-5eab-b574-729c1a54963f.html

Some others covering this important story:

http://www.kansan.com/news/2011/mar/17/roesler-study-examines-graduation-rates-among-stud/?sports

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/2011-03-16-arne-duncan-ncaa-grad-rates_N.htm

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704360404576206982550725902.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

And try this out if you want to know where the Big Big Bucks go:



> http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20110317/SPORTS02/110317035/0/NEWS/?odyssey=nav|head
> 
> . . . The Knight Commission study shows that $179 million — or 44 percent — of the $409 million paid out between 2006 and 2010 were earned by men’s basketball programs reporting APR rates of less than 925.
> 
> NCAA Tournament teams earn money for their conferences in each game they play. In 2011, each game is worth about $1.4 million for a team’s conference.
> 
> The study disclose teams from the six major NCAA conferences — Atlantic Coast, Big 12, Big East, Big Ten, Pac-10 and Southeastern — received $255.7 million from the last five tournaments. But $121.9 million (48 percent) was earned by programs with graduation rates of less than 50 percent.
> 
> The report also said the Big 12 received 55.9 percent of its money from programs with graduation rates below 50 percent. The Big Ten received 49.6 percent of its money from programs failing to meet the 50 percent mark.
> 
> In contrast, the Missouri Valley Conference, In contrast, the Missouri Valley Conference, which has received $13.5 million from NCAA Tournament games, had no team participate with a graduation rate below 50 percent.



So, does the MoVal have a case for a forfeit on ethical grounds or not?  Or at least pass them a few extra bucks for keeping the graduation rates up.


----------



## Eleven

Some of that is a little misleading because a player that leaves the school for professional sports is counted against graduation rates..  "One and Dones" hurt those rates.


----------



## garyd63

> Some of that is a little misleading because a player that leaves the school for professional sports is counted against graduation rates.. "One and Dones" hurt those rates.





> i The Institute has taken the position that Federal Graduation Rates (FGR) give an unfair depiction of a school because it does not account for transfer students. A student-athlete who transfers in good standing and graduates at another institution counts as a non-graduate at the initial school. The FGR also does not count a junior college student who transfers into a four-year college and graduates or a former student-athlete who returns and graduates more than six years after original enrollment. The Institute supports the NCAA’s new Graduation Success Rates, developed in 2005, which accounts for these factors, as a better way to fairly measure the results.



GO HERE for report:

http://www.tidesport.org/Grad Rates/2011_Mens_Bball_FINAL.pdf

According to this study, ISU graduates 100% of its white b-ball players, 40% of those who are black.  I think this is better than most institutions.  The dismal figures for black athletes is one reason the NAACP is putting its support behind Duncan and the study.  They know that graduation from college is, in the story of lives to be led, far more important than a trip to the Big Madness.


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## Callmedoc

1 and done is for kids who go Pro gary...not for kids who transfer lol...


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## Gotta Hav

Dgreenwell3 said:


> 1 and done is for kids who go Pro gary...not for kids who transfer lol...



Did Gary63 mention, or include transfers as part of the one and done equation?


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## garyd63

OK, some on this board get on me for using stuff we don't like to talk about from the _New York Times_ (by far the best news organization in this country), so here's something from the pages of _Smart Money.  
_ 
It's good to see the New York Times, Smart Money and the Sycamore Pride blog discussing these important truths that remain hidden from the public at large.



> http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-...etball-wont-tell-you-1300486798956/?hpadref=1
> 
> 10 Things NCAA Basketball Won't Say from _Smart Money_, March 21, 2011
> 
> 2. We make loads of money…
> 
> The players may be amateurs, but the NCAA men's basketball tournament is big business – second only to the Super Bowl in terms of ad sales for a postseason sporting event. A thirty-second commercial during one of the last two rounds of the tournament costs around $1.2 million, far more than a $440,0000 spot during the World Series, and more than three times the cost of an ad during the NBA championship, according to Kantar Media, a research firm. . . .
> 
> 3. …but not for your alma mater.
> 
> March Madness may make billions, but for most colleges it doesn't provide nearly enough cash to cover the rapidly escalating costs of running a first-class athletics program. In the 2008-2009 school year, only 13 Division I-A sports programs were in the black, according to research by the Center for College Affordability and Productivity (CCAP). The few financial winners include a handful of this year's tournament participants, including the University of Georgia ($1.8 million in earnings), Purdue ($2.3 million), University of Michigan ($10.6 million) and Texas A&M ($15.8 million). But most schools' athletics programs are actually a major drain on the school's finances. . . .
> 
> 4. We're why college is getting so expensive.
> 
> At many schools, spending on sports is growing twice or three times as fast as spending on academics, according to the Knight Commission on Intercollegiate Athletics. Much of the growth is due to coaching staff salaries, which account for a third of overall sports program budgets at the average university or college, says Amy Perko, the Knight Commission's executive director. . . .
> 
> 6. Our players might not graduate.
> 
> . . . But men's basketball and football programs still graduate fewer players than any other sport. And male athletes fare worse than women: The average graduation rate for Division I men is just 72%, compared to an 88% average for women. Among men's sports, tennis has the best graduation rate, at 87%; for women, basketball has the worst record at 83%. The top student-athletes? Women's fencing, which graduated 100% of its 2002 class.
> 
> 9. Cinderella story? That's a fairy tale.
> 
> Sure, any team theoretically has a shot at the title – just win six straight games. But in fact the odds are heavily stacked in favor of established powerhouses. For starters, the Big 6 conferences – Big East, Big Ten, Big 12, Pacific-10, Atlantic Coast Conference, Southeastern Conference – on average, about three times as many at-large bids as the mid-majors. . . .


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## Eleven

Gary has some company...

Nader wants to eliminate athletic scholarships.


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## garyd63

So here's the Nader story.  Look for the release of the full League of Fans report soon.  As it stands here, a bare bones proposal, what would you agree and disagree with? 



> Ralph Nader Calls for Ending Athletic Scholarships
> 
> Published March 24, 2011
> 
> | Associated Press
> 
> Consumer advocate Ralph Nader is calling for the elimination of college athletic scholarships, saying the move is necessary to "de-professionalize" college athletes.
> 
> Nader's League of Fans, a group aimed at reforming sports, proposes that the scholarships be replaced with need-based financial aid. He says that would help restore academic integrity to college sports.
> 
> The Associated Press obtained a copy of the proposal Thursday, ahead of its official release.
> 
> Nader, a former presidential candidate, argues that his plan would also help reduce the "win-at-all-costs" mentality in high schools, by reducing the incentive of college scholarships.


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## Jason Svoboda

Will fandom stay the same? Let's say they eliminate athletic scholarships in favor of need based aid. College sports still will keep most of it's expenses, but if your fan base shrinks because they don't feel the product is still up to par, what would the economic impact be?


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## garyd63

> Will fandom stay the same? Let's say they eliminate athletic scholarships in favor of need based aid. College sports still will keep most of it's expenses, but if your fan base shrinks because they don't feel the product is still up to par, what would the economic impact be?


Good question. I guess you could read the future in one of two ways. If expenses stay  the same and the fan base (and more importantly, TV revenues) fall, losses would reach unsustainable levels and true "deprofessionalization" would take place. Or, perhaps fans and TV will stick with the thrills of competition even if the levels of athletic skills decline.  In the latter case, losses would still hit university budgets.  It is interesting that a Nader group is on the case.  Families paying the college bills are getting restless; students watching their loan bills baloon are starting to ask schools and each other hard questions.  This is fertile ground for consumer advocates. "Consumer" advocates! Ironic, isn't it?  Twenty years or so ago some marketing genius (sic) consultant sold university administrators on the idea that _students_ should be turned into _consumers_. Now the whole "business model" is starting to crumble, and I'm not just talking about the Big Buck programs.


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## BankShot

*NCAA spokesman Bob Williams said referring to college athletes as professionals defies logic.

"They are students, just like any other student on campus who receives a merit-based scholarship," he said.*

Talk about kicking into a "protectionist mode"...LOL


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## bent20

What is the future of universities period? With more and more options available to students many don't even have to show up to the campus anymore to get their education. You want to talk about money wasted on athletics, think about the money wasted on facilities and teachers who sit on their lazy ass and don't teach (they had those at ISU when I was there, I'm certain they still do). In this latest climate of cut all government costs, no matter the consequences, universities are also falling under the microscope, but to think it starts or ends with athletics is horribly naive.


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## new sycamore fan

Ralph Nader is all about spewing information that gets Ralph Nader in the news.  There is certainly an issue with the "elitism" of athletic scholarships, as there has always been.  Is there more of an issue with illiterate athletes than there was in the 1970s, 1980s...?  I doubt it, but we definitely hear more about it because of the media explosion, and the need for the various media outlets (and people) to produce something "interesting and new".  The same goes for student-athletes who make the news for various law-breaking activities.  What Ralph Nader ignores are the vast majority of student-athletes who work just as hard as any other student and excel, in some cases more than the average student.  I'm fortunate enough to have received an athletic scholarship in the 1970's, as was my younger brother.  We both took academics very seriously, making the Dean's List every semester--my brother carried it a step further, and was a Rhodes Scholar candidate while lettering 4 years for a BCS Rose Bowl team--he is now an interventional radiologist who went to medical school a Johns Hopkins.

There are many scholarship athletes currently at ISU, including my son, who also take academics very seriously, and who represent the university in an outstanding manner.  These student-athletes are the ones who should be in the news, because they are the majority.


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## Jason Svoboda

While we're on this, I've got some complaints against non-athlete scholarships. Say you're at State on a music scholarship. I think you should have to forfeit your scholarship if you take a music gig and get paid for it because then you're no longer an amateur musician. The MNCAA needs to come down hard on these folks!


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## Callmedoc

Yeah in every other student organization on campus students are allowed to take advantage of the market...but peeps want to complain about student athletes. I doubt that gets a response from garyd63


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## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> While we're on this, I've got some complaints against non-athlete scholarships. Say you're at State on a music scholarship. I think you should have to forfeit your scholarship if you take a music gig and get paid for it because then you're no longer an amateur musician. The MNCAA needs to come down hard on these folks!



What if it's a different instrument?

Say your scholie is for piano but you back a 80s cover band on rythm guitar...

Kinda like Ricky "Pot Head" Williams playing minor league baseball (collecting bonus $$$ and his baseball salary) and playing football for the texas shorthorns


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## garyd63

> What is the future of universities period?



Bent asks a good question.  (Though he's way off on how hard _most_ profs work.) If a college education has been reduced to a necessary work permit, a union card, a line on a resume, then it's goodbye college and goodbye education.  My email regularly gives me the opportunity to send X$ to some scam outfit who will provide me with this credential. And online schools will also ship you a digital education for a price.  If this  passes for what you think education is and should be in the world today, a meal ticket, a hall pass to a cubicle, go for it.  We definitely are headed in this direction.  I see this all as the coming of a second Dark Ages.  The Lamp of Learning is going out. Curiosity is crushed on the altar of Mammon. But I guess Bent would see this as the moaning of one of those lazy profs serving time at ISU.


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## garyd63

new sycamore fan said:


> Ralph Nader is all about spewing information that gets Ralph Nader in the news.  There is certainly an issue with the "elitism" of athletic scholarships, as there has always been.  Is there more of an issue with illiterate athletes than there was in the 1970s, 1980s...?  I doubt it, but we definitely hear more about it because of the media explosion, and the need for the various media outlets (and people) to produce something "interesting and new".  The same goes for student-athletes who make the news for various law-breaking activities.  What Ralph Nader ignores are the vast majority of student-athletes who work just as hard as any other student and excel, in some cases more than the average student.  I'm fortunate enough to have received an athletic scholarship in the 1970's, as was my younger brother.  We both took academics very seriously, making the Dean's List every semester--my brother carried it a step further, and was a Rhodes Scholar candidate while lettering 4 years for a BCS Rose Bowl team--he is now an interventional radiologist who went to medical school a Johns Hopkins.
> 
> There are many scholarship athletes currently at ISU, including my son, who also take academics very seriously, and who represent the university in an outstanding manner.  These student-athletes are the ones who should be in the news, because they are the majority.


Congrats to you, your brother and your son.  But as we all know, one, or even three swallows, do not make a summer.  The real knock on Big Buck athletic programs is how they are part of an unbridled expensive arms race. The Must Win mentality of the coaches leads to soaring costs. All this pays for entertainment that is not tied in a direct way to the education/research mission of schools.


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## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> What if it's a different instrument?
> 
> Say your scholie is for piano but you back a 80s cover band on rythm guitar...
> 
> Kinda like Ricky "Pot Head" Williams playing minor league baseball (collecting bonus $$$ and his baseball salary) and playing football for the texas shorthorns


I'll have to think about it. I think they need to appoint me over the MNCAA and I'll come up with something crazy. I'll make sure that individual cannot make any money outside of his/her scholarship... that's for sure!


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## garyd63

Music majors are, well, music majors. They get degrees in a field authorized by the university, trustees, faculty.  Big Buck athletic programs may provide fringe benefits _*(or not)*_, but you do not get a degree in middle-linebacker or point guard.  And if a talented, scholarship sax players gets a gig on weekends at a bar, what's the gripe?  Music majors are not holding themselves up as "amateurs," as "scholar-musicians."  They are students working toward degrees within an approved curriculum allowing and even encouraging this extra-curricular experience. They're not facing the hypocritical Jim Thorpe decree that stripped this Olympian of his medals for playing a few sandlot baseball games for a few bucks.  This kind of stuff happened in the past and happens today because scholarship athletes are exploited by a system not built with them in mind. It's confused. It's rotten.  It's rotten and confused.


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## Callmedoc

The point is they are on scholarship as AMATEUR musicians...Not professional...you can't just pick your battle based on whom you like and whom you don't...that's why I doubt this ever happens...


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## garyd63

Dgreenwell3 said:


> The point is they are on scholarship as AMATEUR musicians...Not professional...you can't just pick your battle based on whom you like and whom you don't...that's why I doubt this ever happens...


What part of this am I not making clear?



> Music majors are, well, music majors. They get degrees in a field authorized by the university, trustees, faculty. Big Buck athletic programs may provide fringe benefits (or not), but you do not get a degree in middle-linebacker or point guard.


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## Jason Svoboda

garyd63 said:


> What part of this am I not making clear?


That's because what you're saying doesn't matter. It doesn't matter WHY they're there IMO, one group is extremely restricted and the other is not. But again, I was just saying that in jest and to be sarcastic.

If athletics as they are today were eliminated, there would be major shockwaves that weren't considered and that you continuously ignore when people bring it up because you discount the research and conclusions drawn from that research such as decreased enrollment.

I'd be willing to bet that fundraising and alumni giving would go into the tank as well.


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## garyd63

> If athletics as they are today were eliminated, there would be major shockwaves that weren't considered and that you continuously ignore when people bring it up because you discount the research and conclusions drawn from that research such as decreased enrollment.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that fundraising and alumni giving would go into the tank as well.



Here's the last summary of studies on the subject of alum donations and athletics I can find.  And believe me, I look for them.  Anything more recent?



> http://chronicle.com [Chronicle of Higher Education]
> Section: Athletics
> Volume 54, Issue 6, Page A1
> 
> October 5, 2007
> Growth in Sports Gifts May Mean Fewer Academic Donations
> 
> Money for athletics accounts for more than one-quarter of all contributions to some universities
> 
> Over the next few years, big-time athletics programs hope to raise an additional $2.5-billion for new buildings, the survey found. And many programs are expanding their fund-raising staffs to solicit big gifts.
> 
> But the sports fund-raising success has come at a cost: While donations to the country's 119 largest athletics departments have risen significantly in recent years, overall giving to those colleges has stayed relatively flat, according to an article in the April issue of the Journal of Sport Management, which analyzed fund-raising figures reported by colleges to the Council for Aid to Education.
> 
> Among the surveyed institutions, athletics departments brought in an increasing share of the colleges' overall donations. In 1998 athletics gifts accounted for 14.7 percent of all contributions. By 2003 sports donations had reached 26 percent.
> 
> The shift has frayed relations among fund raisers soliciting the same donors and has led to broader concerns about the growing importance of sports as overall funding for colleges has stagnated. . . .


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## bent20

garyd63 said:


> Bent asks a good question.  (Though he's way off on how hard _most_ profs work.) If a college education has been reduced to a necessary work permit, a union card, a line on a resume, then it's goodbye college and goodbye education.  My email regularly gives me the opportunity to send X$ to some scam outfit who will provide me with this credential. And online schools will also ship you a digital education for a price.  If this  passes for what you think education is and should be in the world today, a meal ticket, a hall pass to a cubicle, go for it.  We definitely are headed in this direction.  I see this all as the coming of a second Dark Ages.  The Lamp of Learning is going out. Curiosity is crushed on the altar of Mammon. But I guess Bent would see this as the moaning of one of those lazy profs serving time at ISU.



Several universities are now offering online classes. There are many quality schools where you can now earn a degree without ever setting foot on campus.


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## garyd63

> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/30/sports/ncaafootball/30fiesta.html?ref=sports
> 
> March 29, 2011
> Fiesta Bowl Spending and Donations Questioned
> By KATIE THOMAS
> 
> Top executives at the Fiesta Bowl funneled campaign contributions to local politicians, flew other Arizona elected officials around the country at the bowl’s expense, racked up a $1,200 bill at a strip club and even spent $30,000 on a birthday party for the chief executive, according to an investigative report commissioned by the bowl’s board of directors. . . .



Isn't it comforting how the Big Buck college sports establishment is making fat, Big Buck connections with politicians? It used to be enough that half or more  of a state legislature would be made up of rabid sports fans who were  ready to turn a blind eye to the costs and corruption of programs at their old Skyosh U.. Tickets to the games were enough back in the day. Now they seem to want a cut of the pie. And if it goes into their campaign war chests, that's just fine. From the team on the field to the team on the campaign trail to political power.  Gad how this stuff smells to high heaven.


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## 4Q_iu

bent20 said:


> Several universities are now offering online classes. There are many quality schools where *you can now earn a degree without ever setting foot on campus*.



True but just as so many people argue (on this board) that intercollegiate athletics is VITAL to the 'collegiate experience,' than isn't an ON-CAMPUS experience VITAL to the 'collegiate experience?'


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## Sackalot

4Q_iu said:


> True but just as so many people argue (on this board) that intercollegiate athletics is VITAL to the 'collegiate experience,' than isn't an ON-CAMPUS experience VITAL to the 'collegiate experience?'



not to mention the socialization piece.  A person that learns via computer can only communicate via computer...and when it comes to real world business, the personal meeting and the handshake will never be replaced.  On line education is just fine for continuing education, it is just fine for additional degrees or training, but I find no benefit for a student to receive a bachelors degree from a Univ. of Pheonix or something similar and they never set foot on an actual campus of any kind.  But then, that brings up the issue of proprietary schools..are they actually providing a true education or are they simply diploma mills?


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## bent20

Not saying it's the way I want it to go, just pointing out that if you want to talk about cutting expenses at universities the conversation can and does go far deeper than how much is spent on athletics.


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## bent20

Interesting story about whether Purdue should pay Painter more.

http://www.purdueexponent.org/sports/article_dfc39820-5a6c-11e0-a16e-0017a4a78c22.html

Wow, a professor who gets it:

Howard Zelaznik, a professor who used to chair Purdue's Faculty Senate, said he also has heard divided opinions as to whether Painter makes too much.

"It's a complicated question," he said. "Coaches don't have tenure - coaches are expected to win and, in the revenue sports, to make sure that there are people in the stands."

Zelaznik said it is difficult to compare what he gets paid with what Painter gets paid because the two Purdue employees have completely different expectations in their jobs. Zelaznik is not judged based on whether he brings in revenue - Painter is.


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## garyd63

> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/sports/ncaafootball/31auburn.html?ref=sports
> 
> NYT March 30, 2011
> Ex-Players Tell of Receiving Illicit Payments at Auburn and Elsewhere
> By BRETT McMURPHY
> 
> Four former Auburn football players said in an “HBO Real Sports” report on Wednesday night that they were paid thousands of dollars during their college careers, including one who said he received money from an assistant coach. . . .



I guess these ATHLETE-sort-of students needed a little extra for snacks and laundry.  OK, it's Auburn you say. Yeah, Auburn, the goal and ideal of every Big Buck program that lives and dies by the winning is what it's all about philosophy.  Find me a coach today who hasn't spouted out this winning mantra in public and I would say hire her/him--for the philosophy department at your school. (If your school, unlike ISU, still supports a philosophy department. But hey, we dropped wrestling and gymnastics, why not philosophy?)


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## sycamorebacker

Who is this weirdo and why is he on a sports forum?


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## garyd63

> http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...xpose-yet-another-hypocrisy-in-college-sports
> 
> NCAA Scholarship Rules Expose Yet Another Hypocrisy in College Sports
> By
> Hayden Bird
> (Correspondent) on March 31, 2011
> WASHINGTON - MARCH 17: NCAA President Mark Emmert address the media during a press conference before the second round of the 2011 NCAA men's basketball tournament at the Verizon Center on March 17, 2011 in Washington, DC. (Photo by Nick Laham/Getty Images) A cross-section of a man caught at a moment of decision bound to reverberate across his entire profession.
> Nick Laham/Getty Images
> 
> Real quick: what percentage of Division I athletic scholarships are multiyear? 50%? 60%? More?
> 
> Had someone asked me this question anytime before a couple days ago, I would have probably guessed a high percentage.
> 
> The answer: zero. . . .



yet-another-hypocrisy-in-college-sports -- exactly right.


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## Eleven

garyd63 said:


> yet-another-hypocrisy-in-college-sports -- exactly right.



If you read any number of threads on this site, you would know the answer to that "real quick" question anyway.


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## Jason Svoboda

Gary, help me out here but I'm a bit confused. On academic scholarships, are all of those guaranteed for four years out of the gate or are they renewable for additionall years? Surely they're all just rubberstamped for 4 years no matter what, right?

Also, what happens if you get an academic scholarship but don't perform -- say it required you have a 3.0 GPA but you only could manage a 2.5? Surely they don't take them away for lack of performance, right?

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## Sackalot

Gary know that virtually no academic scholarship is rubber stamped.  If a student doesn't perform they are out and don't get renewed.  They are essentially on contract and eligible for renewal on all.....just like athletics...


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## Callmedoc

dude you should be banned...u just quoted bleacher report to help an argument.


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## dr. bucket

Sackalot said:


> Gary know that virtually no academic scholarship is rubber stamped.  If a student doesn't perform they are out and don't get renewed.  They are essentially on contract and eligible for renewal on all.....just like athletics...



but you're told up front what those conditions are; the pulling of an atheltic scholarship is pretty much at will


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## dr. bucket

Jason Svoboda said:


> Gary, help me out here but I'm a bit confused. On academic scholarships, are all of those guaranteed for four years out of the gate or are they renewable for additionall years? Surely they're all just rubberstamped for 4 years no matter what, right?
> 
> Also, what happens if you get an academic scholarship but don't perform -- say it required you have a 3.0 GPA but you only could manage a 2.5? Surely they don't take them away for lack of performance, right?
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help.



quick what are the conditions for renewal or loss of an athletic scholarship?

quick how many years does an LOI bind you to an institution for?


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## Bluesier

Here's a quick one for ya smartass, ya either perform or ya don't... get it?? You don't have to set "official" standards, you tell the kids what you expect and that is to perform and do the right things for the program. Perform and represent in the right fashion. Pretty simple, huh??


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## Sackalot

And so is an academic scholarship...if a person is holding down an academic scholarship and they get arrested for a DUI they will most likely lose the scholarship...same with athletics.

I get what you are saying that an athlete can lose their scholarship for "arbitrary reasons" but, that argument losses water....because for "arbitrary reasons" a scholarship could not be renewed...politics play a role in any scholarship situation!!


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## dr. bucket

Bluesier said:


> Here's a quick one for ya smartass, ya either perform or ya don't... get it?? You don't have to set "official" standards, you tell the kids what you expect and that is to perform and do the right things for the program. Perform and represent in the right fashion. Pretty simple, huh??



pretty subjective i'd say and leaves the athlete-"student" at the whim of his taskmasters. that's not true if you're told up front you have to maintain a 3.25 to retain your scholarship. simple is as simple does.


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## dr. bucket

Sackalot said:


> And so is an academic scholarship...if a person is holding down an academic scholarship and they get arrested for a DUI they will most likely lose the scholarship...same with athletics.
> 
> I get what you are saying that an athlete can lose their scholarship for "arbitrary reasons" but, that argument losses water....because for "arbitrary reasons" a scholarship could not be renewed...politics play a role in any scholarship situation!!



do you know that for a fact?

what are the arbitrary reasons a scholarship could not be renewed. what are the politics you speak of. i need facts


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## Bluesier

dr. bucket said:


> i need facts



What you need is a life, not get on an athletic message board and try to pester people and get them fired up.


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## dr. bucket

Bluesier said:


> What you need is a life, not get on an athletic message board and try to pester people and get them fired up.



presenting factual statement and asking questions gets people fired up? to me it's at the heart of intelligent discourse. simple is as simple does


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## Sackalot

doesn't fire me up.  I can't give you facts because facts about this type of thing are not printed...

But I have seen students not get their President's scholarship because they didn't complete a little form, or they didn't get a recommendation in on time.  I have seen a student not get a scholarship renewed because they submitted a document incorrectly or it was lost in the mail, those are simple examples.  But I have to beleive that within academic scholarships as well as sports scholarships, politics, favortism, nepatism rear their head from time to time...that is unavoidable.  I am not saying that NCAA regulated scholarships are fair, or should not be changed.  What I am saying is that it is not realistic to say, a student gets a four year full ride scholarship for basketball and the school must provide them with that scholarship as a guarantee.  If they are hurt, if they are disciplined, if they not interested in playing?? they shouldn't get the scholarship then.  

I understand the need for facts...but these are not the type of things that are available.  Schools are not going to throw it out there that this happens?  But it does in some instances...I have seen/heard about it from the student's themselves.


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## 4Q_iu

Sackalot said:


> doesn't fire me up.  I can't give you facts because facts about this type of thing are not printed...
> 
> *But I have seen students not get their President's scholarship because they didn't complete a little form, or they didn't get a recommendation in on time.  I have seen a student not get a scholarship renewed because they submitted a document incorrectly or it was lost in the mail, those are simple examples.*  But I have to beleive that within academic scholarships as well as sports scholarships, politics, favortism, nepatism rear their head from time to time...that is unavoidable...
> 
> I understand the need for facts...but these are not the type of things that are available.  Schools are not going to throw it out there that this happens?  But it does in some instances...I have seen/heard about it from the student's themselves.



Well, did the students who DID receive the Pres. Scholarship complete the application forms/package correctly AND ensure that it was received in time?

Life is FULL of 'wins / losses' because of administrivia; some of it necessary, some of it is not


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