# Bird not in top 10 Indiana HS players??



## sycamorebacker

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/bs2571z6Nk2qDMecyrbegg/top-10--the-best-hoosier-hoopsters.htm


----------



## Jason Svoboda

The fact he isn't on there basically means you can wipe your ass with that.


----------



## Southgrad07

Mike Conley number 5!!! WOW... I remember Armon Bassett scoring at will on him in the semi state game even when he had a 7 foot shot blocker to back him up. Conley was a great player but come on 5th best ever. He does not even belong in the same breath as Bird.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Southgrad07 said:


> Mike Conley number 5!!! WOW... I remember Armon Bassett scoring at will on him in the semi state game even when he had a 7 foot shot blocker to back him up. Conley was a great player but come on 5th best ever. He does not even belong in the same breath as Bird.



I don't mind Conley in the top 10.  What about Keller or Glen Robinson?
Oden is too high.  I would go with Oscar #1 since he won the state.  I would have Bird #2.


----------



## Bally #50

My Hoosier hysteria knowledge is limited by I do know that Bird, although an All-Star, did not truly "blossom" until he got to college and my guess is that is why he was not listed. Now if they had selected the best collegiate players in Indiana history and overlooked him, that WOULD be a travesty but at least at the high school level, it would be hard to argue with the quality/quanity of HS hoops players from the state.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Bally #44 said:


> My Hoosier hysteria knowledge is limited by I do know that Bird, although an All-Star, did not truly "blossom" until he got to college and my guess is that is why he was not listed. Now if they had selected the best collegiate players in Indiana history and overlooked him, that WOULD be a travesty but at least at the high school level, it would be hard to argue with the quality/quanity of HS hoops players from the state.



He did "blossom" after HS, but if I remember correctly he averaged about 30 pts and about 20 rebounds his SR year.  Of course, it was a small school but that's good anywhere.  I heard the story that when he dropped out of IU, Garry Donna tried to get the Pacers to go after him.  He must have been pretty good for Donna to do that.


----------



## Greene Co.

I believe I was in the fifth grade when Bird was a senior.  I watched nearly every game that season.  Looking back and now understanding what I saw, Bird was one great high school player.  People did not pay much attention to him because Springs Valley was a small school in Southern Indiana.  I believe he was one of if not the last selection to the all star team that year.  He did continue to become a great player in college as most great high school players do.  Wish you all could see what I remember in my mind.  Did you see that pass! Just like it was 74 and I am in the S.V. gym.  Great I tell you, Great!


----------



## bent20

I don't know anything about his high school career, so I can't really be outraged.


----------



## Gotta Hav

sycamorebacker said:


> *Oden is too high*.  I would go with Oscar #1 since he won the state.  I would have Bird #2.



Sycamorebacker, you're too high.   Jason, I believe you're still hungover from St. Louis.  Man, I hate to be busting chops, but get real.   

Wait a minute, I got it.  You're just have some big time fun with us, right?  Okay, hardy har har...oh you got me.   Nyuk nyuk nyuk.  hahaha LOL...stop it, you're killing me.

Bird, the #2 all time Indiana HS best basketball player.   How did you come up with that?   Smokin' crack?

I guess Steve Downing was just nothing, right?   Hell, I put three players from the 1971 East Chicago Washington team ahead of Bird.  That's Pete Trgovich, Tim Stoddard, and Ulysses Bridgeman Jr.  And I guess Bobby Plump was just some chump.

Let's see...Larry Bird couldn't carry Billy Shepherds jock strap, or Billy Kellers gym bag....and Dave Shepherd....he's nothing too, right.  Where does Walter Jordan and Kent Benson place?   Hell, I put Bob Ford, Barron Hill, Larry Humes Mike Flynn, Halie Bryant and Bruce Grimm in front of Larry Bird on any list.   If I had the time, I'd come up with a top 50, and I don't know if Bird would be in it.  Heck I even have Butch Wade and Jerry Newsome in front of Bird.

Now focus, Krider's list, which sucks....if he's got Damon Bailey as the 4th All Time best Indiana High School ball player, is JUST for best HS players.  

I remember Bird being an IN All Star and that's about it....what the hell was special about him then, other than Bob Knight saw something, that no one else did.   Here's the proof to that, if Bird was the #2 all time best player behind Oscar Robertson, name the 20 other colleges that were recruiting Bird?  Name 10, heck just name 5 colleges that were hot to have Bird.  

Larry Bird, 2nd best IN HS player of all time.  Ha, that's funny fer sure!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bally #44 said:


> My Hoosier hysteria knowledge is limited by I do know that Bird, although an All-Star, did not truly "blossom" until he got to college and my guess is that is why he was not listed. Now if they had selected the best collegiate players in Indiana history and overlooked him, that WOULD be a travesty but at least at the high school level, it would be hard to argue with the quality/quanity of HS hoops players from the state.


Any player that averages 30ppg and 20rpg in a season is hard to argue. The problem is a lot of these other average players are boosted because they played on great teams. Larry was his team.


----------



## SycamoreSage

Bird did have a great senior year and was injured much of his junior year. However, ISU Coach Gordon Stauffer thought Bird was a "very special player" when he was a high school sophomore. Stauffer shared his opinion about Bird among those he trusted

I think the list needs considerable revision to include:
*Bird, Springs Valley* - First or second greatest all-around player in Indiana basketball history.

*Clyde Lovellette, Terre Haute Garfield* - still the only college athlete to win the national scoring title and the NCAA championship at Kansas. Led the 1952 Olympic team. All-pro. Two-time All-America. Took undefeated Garfield to the 1947 IHSAA title game. 

*Terry Dischinger, Terre Haute Garfield *- led Big Ten in scoring three straight years. Three-time College All-America. Sophomore starter on 1960 Olympic team when Oscar was a senior. NBA Rookie of the Year, 1963. Had ROTC military commitment so left the NBA; returned after two years but played only part-time while attending dental school.

I would put McGinnis, Bailey and Mount ahead of Oden and Conley. Glenn Robinson and Calbert Cheaney would be ahead of several on the list, particularly Colescott. Indeed, I would place Ron Bonham, Hallie Bryant, Shawn Kemp, Jimmy Rayl, Bob "Slick" Leonard, Jumpin' Johnny Wilson, the Van Arsdale twins, Roy Burris, Kent Benson, Steve Alford, Norm Cottom, Wilson Eison, Jack Moore, Babe Wheeler, Jon McGlocklin and Billy Keller ahead of Colescott, who was a nice player but not an elite player.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Gotta Hav said:


> Sycamorebacker, you're too high.   Jason, I believe you're still hungover from St. Louis.  Man, I hate to be busting chops, but get real.
> 
> Wait a minute, I got it.  You're just have some big time fun with us, right?  Okay, hardy har har...oh you got me.   Nyuk nyuk nyuk.  hahaha LOL...stop it, you're killing me.
> 
> Bird, the #2 all time Indiana HS best basketball player.   How did you come up with that?   Smokin' crack?
> 
> I guess Steve Downing was just nothing, right?   Hell, I put three players from the 1971 East Chicago Washington team ahead of Bird.  That's Pete Trgovich, Tim Stoddard, and Ulysses Bridgeman Jr.  And I guess Bobby Plump was just some chump.
> 
> Let's see...Larry Bird couldn't carry Billy Shepherds jock strap, or Billy Kellers gym bag....and Dave Shepherd....he's nothing too, right.  Where does Walter Jordan and Kent Benson place?   Hell, I put Bob Ford, Barron Hill, Larry Humes Mike Flynn, Halie Bryant and Bruce Grimm in front of Larry Bird on any list.   If I had the time, I'd come up with a top 50, and I don't know if Bird would be in it.  Heck I even have Butch Wade and Jerry Newsome in front of Bird.
> 
> Now focus, Krider's list, which sucks....if he's got Damon Bailey as the 4th All Time best Indiana High School ball player, is JUST for best HS players.
> 
> I remember Bird being an IN All Star and that's about it....what the hell was special about him then, other than Bob Knight saw something, that no one else did.   Here's the proof to that, if Bird was the #2 all time best player behind Oscar Robertson, name the 20 other colleges that were recruiting Bird?  Name 10, heck just name 5 colleges that were hot to have Bird.
> 
> Larry Bird, 2nd best IN HS player of all time.  Ha, that's funny fer sure!



Let's get this straight.  So you're saying that Bird was not very good in HS (31 pts and 21 reb with no 3 pt line) and then, after working real hard and playing one college season he INSTANTLY became one of the best college players ever and led his team to the championship game and #1 in the nation the next year.    
Man, he must have been eating a lot of Wheaties!


----------



## xfactor9600

I don't have a problem with Oden, but Conley once again rides his coat tails onto this list (IMHO). Conley benefited SIGNIFICANTLY from having the big guy down low.

No idea why Conley makes the list over Bird.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

xfactor9600 said:


> No idea why Conley makes the list over Bird.



Easy to explain that--the list was compiled by an idiot.


----------



## bluebill

This is a great thread !!  Names that have dropped off my memory page but good to remember.  All named were great and hard to place in line but one stands head and shoulders above was Oscar Robinson.  It was not fair to the opposition they played during his junior and senior years.  In my estimation he was the greatest highschool player ever...period.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Just a couple of thoughts...

That list is 2 years old.

For Larry to NOT be in the Top Ten is surprising / not surprising.

Was Larry an ELITE Indiana HS player?  Sure, how many people KNEW it?

Joe B Hall wanted him in Lexington, Denny Crum wanted him in Louisville, he (Larry) wasn't interested in West Lafayette because Walter Jordan and Wayne Walls were already signed and he knew his position was 'stacked'; State wanted him, the Sphincter of Gloomington wanted him; have to believe McCutchan wanted him in Evansville, as did  Joe Sexton and Jim Holstein at ISU-Muncie.

However, IF the Sphincter of Gloomington was the ONLY one who 'saw something in Larry' -- wouldn't the Sphincter of Gloomington have coaxed him BACK to gloomington???

Bottomline: Larry is arguably one of the Top Ten Indiana HS players; HOWEVER, he never played beyond the Regionals (and in only one, 1974).  The rest all have careers at the Semi-State and State finals.  It's not 'fair,' but it's true.


----------



## sycamore51

I remember as a little kid sitting in the gym at New Albany High School and watching Damon Bailey play in his senior year.  NA won, but he was something special and his daughter is supposed to be the real deal too.  He's the best I've ever seen, but I'm young.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Plus if Krider thinks Oden is the most humble big man in Indiana history (how is Krider?  never heard of him before this story...); he's NEVER met or spoken with Clyde Lovellete, Bob Ford, Don Schlundt or Terry Dischinger...

Plus ANY player who played in the class tournament era should have an asterisk next to his name.


----------



## sycamorebacker

bluebill said:


> This is a great thread !!  Names that have dropped off my memory page but good to remember.  All named were great and hard to place in line but one stands head and shoulders above was Oscar Robinson.  It was not fair to the opposition they played during his junior and senior years.  In my estimation he was the greatest highschool player ever...period.



I wouldn't disagree.  I've seen a film of one of Oscar's hs games.  It was easy for a 6'5" guard back then to score.  he didn't look that good compared to modern standards, but that was in his time.  
It's hard for me to believe there has ever been a better HS player in IN than George Mcginnis.  53 pts and 34 reb in an all-star game?  come on?  who get close to that?


----------



## 4Q_iu

sycamorebacker said:


> I wouldn't disagree.  I've seen a film of one of Oscar's hs games.  It was easy for a 6'5" guard back then to score.  he didn't look that good compared to modern standards, but that was in his time.
> It's hard for me to believe there has ever been a better HS player in IN than George Mcginnis.  53 pts and 34 reb in an all-star game?  come on?  who get close to that?



Oscar could have played in any era.

Look at what he was faced with ON and OFF the court.

Love Larry, hard to say Larry was a better HS player than Oscar...


----------



## KAPat1865

Where is Eric Gordon on this list? I would put him above Conley. I think he won Mr. Basketball and a few State Championships?

He will also have a decent NBA career I would imagine as long as he gets out of LA


----------



## sycamorebacker

KAPat1865 said:


> Where is Eric Gordon on this list? I would put him above Conley. I think he won Mr. Basketball and a few State Championships?
> 
> He will also have a decent NBA career I would imagine as long as he gets out of LA



forgot about him.  you can't leave him off the list.


----------



## dr. bucket

KAPat1865 said:


> Where is Eric Gordon on this list? I would put him above Conley. I think he won Mr. Basketball and a few State Championships?
> 
> He will also have a decent NBA career I would imagine as long as he gets out of LA



no state championships. runner-up to e'twaun moore his senior year. oden-conley won his freshman, soph and junior years.


----------



## Westbadenboy

*Lets get this straight .....*

Here are the FACTS about Larry as a HIGH SCHOOL player:

He did average over 30 pts and 20 rebs A GAME !

I think he had a game of 55 pts and over 30 rebs !

They did lose in the Regional final game to Bedford (unfortunately a relative of mine missed about five free throws in the last 2 minutes of the game -- SV had led most of the game and Bedford had to foul --- and it worked for them)

Had Valley won that Regional game they would have had an EXCELLENT chance of winning the Semin-State and heading to Indy (in the day of ONE class basketball).

In reality, MANY major schools recruited Larry -- probably even they did not realize what he would become, but the Kentucky's and Louisville's knew he would be a very good college player.

FACT -- Larry made the Indiana All-Stars .............was CLEARLY the best player on the team as shown by his play on the floor (when Kerby Overman would let him play).  He led the All-Stars in scoring and rebounding often during their "exhibition" games prior to the games with Kentucky.  I watched him get about 5 rebounds, 3- 4 assists, and score about 8 pts in roughly five minutes play in a game at Hinkle Fieldhouse in one of those "practice" games.  Then Overman promptly sat him on the bench for most of the remainder of the game.
Overman (coach of the All-Stars) was quoted as saying something like "I play the kids from the big high schools because that's who the people want to see play".  

Yes ..... Larry did get better as a college player ...........dahhhhh.

But the FACT is, whether any of the snobs in Indy or north of US 40 knew it, Larry Bird was truly one of the best HIGH SCHOOL players ever in Indiana.

Enough Said !

            Westbadenboy (that's right next to French Lick for you folks 
                 north of US 40)


----------



## Westbadenboy

*Lets get this straight .....*

Here are the FACTS about Larry as a HIGH SCHOOL player:

He did average over 30 pts and 20 rebs A GAME !

I think he had a game of 55 pts and over 30 rebs !

They did lose in the Regional final game to Bedford (unfortunately a relative of mine missed about five free throws in the last 2 minutes of the game -- SV had led most of the game and Bedford had to foul --- and it worked for them)

Had Valley won that Regional game they would have had an EXCELLENT chance of winning the Semin-State and heading to Indy (in the day of ONE class basketball).

In reality, MANY major schools recruited Larry -- probably even they did not realize what he would become, but the Kentucky's and Louisville's knew he would be a very good college player.

FACT -- Larry made the Indiana All-Stars .............was CLEARLY the best player on the team as shown by his play on the floor (when Kerby Overman would let him play).  He led the All-Stars in scoring and rebounding often during their "exhibition" games prior to the games with Kentucky.  I watched him get about 5 rebounds, 3- 4 assists, and score about 8 pts in roughly five minutes play in a game at Hinkle Fieldhouse in one of those "practice" games.  Then Overman promptly sat him on the bench for most of the remainder of the game.
Overman (coach of the All-Stars) was quoted as saying something like "I play the kids from the big high schools because that's who the people want to see play".  

Yes ..... Larry did get better as a college player ...........dahhhhh.

But the FACT is, whether any of the snobs in Indy or north of US 40 knew it, Larry Bird was truly one of the best HIGH SCHOOL players ever in Indiana.

Enough Said !

            Westbadenboy (that's right next to French Lick for you folks 
                 north of US 40)


----------



## sycamorebacker

westbadenboy said:


> here are the facts about larry as a high school player:
> 
> He did average over 30 pts and 20 rebs a game !
> 
> I think he had a game of 55 pts and over 30 rebs !
> 
> They did lose in the regional final game to bedford (unfortunately a relative of mine missed about five free throws in the last 2 minutes of the game -- sv had led most of the game and bedford had to foul --- and it worked for them)
> 
> had valley won that regional game they would have had an excellent chance of winning the semin-state and heading to indy (in the day of one class basketball).
> 
> In reality, many major schools recruited larry -- probably even they did not realize what he would become, but the kentucky's and louisville's knew he would be a very good college player.
> 
> Fact -- larry made the indiana all-stars .............was clearly the best player on the team as shown by his play on the floor (when kerby overman would let him play).  He led the all-stars in scoring and rebounding often during their "exhibition" games prior to the games with kentucky.  I watched him get about 5 rebounds, 3- 4 assists, and score about 8 pts in roughly five minutes play in a game at hinkle fieldhouse in one of those "practice" games.  Then overman promptly sat him on the bench for most of the remainder of the game.
> Overman (coach of the all-stars) was quoted as saying something like "i play the kids from the big high schools because that's who the people want to see play".
> 
> Yes ..... Larry did get better as a college player ...........dahhhhh.
> 
> But the fact is, whether any of the snobs in indy or north of us 40 knew it, larry bird was truly one of the best high school players ever in indiana.
> 
> Enough said !
> 
> Westbadenboy (that's right next to french lick for you folks
> north of us 40)



amen twice!


----------



## sycamorebacker

i think it's crazy that some person above said he wasn't that good in HS, yet after two yrs of college ball, the Celtics drafted him in the first round ONE YEAR EARLY knowing they had to wait for him.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Westbadenboy said:


> Here are the FACTS about Larry as a HIGH SCHOOL player:
> 
> He did average over 30 pts and 20 rebs A GAME !
> 
> I think he had a game of 55 pts and over 30 rebs !
> 
> They did lose in the Regional final game to Bedford (unfortunately a relative of mine missed about five free throws in the last 2 minutes of the game -- SV had led most of the game and Bedford had to foul --- and it worked for them)
> 
> Had Valley won that Regional game they would have had an EXCELLENT chance of winning the Semin-State and heading to Indy (in the day of ONE class basketball).
> 
> In reality, MANY major schools recruited Larry -- probably even they did not realize what he would become, but the Kentucky's and Louisville's knew he would be a very good college player.
> 
> FACT -- Larry made the Indiana All-Stars .............was CLEARLY the best player on the team as shown by his play on the floor (when Kerby Overman would let him play).  He led the All-Stars in scoring and rebounding often during their "exhibition" games prior to the games with Kentucky.  I watched him get about 5 rebounds, 3- 4 assists, and score about 8 pts in roughly five minutes play in a game at Hinkle Fieldhouse in one of those "practice" games.  Then Overman promptly sat him on the bench for most of the remainder of the game.
> Overman (coach of the All-Stars) was quoted as saying something like "I play the kids from the big high schools because that's who the people want to see play".
> 
> Yes ..... Larry did get better as a college player ...........dahhhhh.
> 
> But the FACT is, whether any of the snobs in Indy or north of US 40 knew it, Larry Bird was truly one of the best HIGH SCHOOL players ever in Indiana.
> 
> Enough Said !
> 
> Westbadenboy (that's right next to French Lick for you folks
> north of US 40)



I doubt Valley would have made it past Jeffersonville (had they beat Bosse for the Regional title); Jeffersonville lost a very close State Final game.

Larry had a very good 2-yr HS career; others had a 4 year career; he was the best player in that class, was he at 17-18 YO?  Very arguable -- he got better, stronger and bigger in college and the pros.


----------



## sycamorebacker

4Q_iu said:


> I doubt Valley would have made it past Jeffersonville (had they beat Bosse for the Regional title); Jeffersonville lost a very close State Final game.
> 
> Larry had a very good 2-yr HS career; others had a 4 year career; he was the best player in that class, was he at 17-18 YO?  Very arguable -- he got better, stronger and bigger in college and the pros.



No, there can be no argument. He didn't just suddenly become good at ISU.


----------



## 4Q_iu

sycamorebacker said:


> No, there can be no argument. He didn't just suddenly become good at ISU.



So, Larry WAS the Best High School Player in 1974 for the State of Indiana?

Again -- That list is 2 yrs old; Krider isn't THE Authority for Indiana HS BBall (and neither are any of us!)... and it APPARENT from his selections that he based it on the ENTIRE HS careers of those players.  Larry's was just shorter (mainly due to his broken foot, his SOPH season)

Yes; Larry was very, very good in HS.  He GOT BETTER in College.  If he DIDN'T get better in College, he'd have pled hardship and went STRAIGHT to the PROS (ala Moses Malone)...


----------



## Westbadenboy

*4q iu*

As many of the "big" schools in Indiana found out in the 50's  60'S  and 70's the little Springs Valley's of the world beat their butt  (ask New Albany about their only game against Valley in the Huntingburg Regional).  
I'm sure the Evansville SemiState would have been great competition that year, but SV had a very strong team that year -- not just Larry Bird.
But my main point was that in every way, shape, and form Larry was easily the best player on the floor in the state -- he showed that repeatly at every level of competition.
Had Valley made it to Hinkle that year and Larry performed the way I think he would have, only the "politics" of the All-Star selection system could have stopped him from probably being Mr. Basketball.  I'd say just about everyone from around the state (Bob Knight ?) who actually saw him play that year knew he was the best player in the state.
Overall main point -- seems to me its incredibly silly to argue that Larry Bird was not one of the Top Ten High School players in Indiana history.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Westbadenboy said:


> As many of the "big" schools in Indiana found out in the 50's  60'S  and 70's the little Springs Valley's of the world beat their butt  (ask New Albany about their only game against Valley in the Huntingburg Regional).
> I'm sure the Evansville SemiState would have been great competition that year, but SV had a very strong team that year -- not just Larry Bird.
> But my main point was that in every way, shape, and form Larry was easily the best player on the floor in the state -- he showed that repeatly at every level of competition.
> Had Valley made it to Hinkle that year and Larry performed the way I think he would have, only the "politics" of the All-Star selection system could have stopped him from probably being Mr. Basketball.  I'd say just about everyone from around the state (Bob Knight ?) who actually saw him play that year knew he was the best player in the state.
> Overall main point -- seems to me its incredibly silly to argue that Larry Bird was not one of the Top Ten High School players in Indiana history.



The biggest thing that hurt Larry was never playing beyond the Regional.  The second was playing at a school the size of Springs Valley FROM Southern Indiana (and I mean the *REAL Southern Indiana*, none of this  idea of gloomington, columbus, martinsville or terre haute being Southern Indiana but SOUTHERN INDIANA, south of a line from Vincennes to Madison; where the Ohio is your border / next county border).

But I don't think SV would have made it past Jeff'ville that season.

Agree on your main point; any Top Ten list of Ind HS players has to include Larry (but Ten is too few); I also think MANY of our memories/visions of Larry are clouded by his time at State and with the Celtics.


----------



## indstate33

OK....TIME OUT......Is the orinal article stating who the top basketball players were when they were in HS.....or their total Basketball career?  I took the list as their HS career only.....and if Larry only played 2 years, then he should not be on the top 10 list....JMO

And no offense to anybody in here...but the author of the list has 50 years experience of watching HS basketball.....I will trust his list......


----------



## 4Q_iu

indstate33 said:


> OK....TIME OUT......Is the orinal article stating who the top basketball players were when they were in HS.....or their total Basketball career?  I took the list as their HS career only.....and if Larry only played 2 years, then he should not be on the top 10 list....JMO
> 
> And no offense to anybody in here...but the author of the list has 50 years experience of watching HS basketball.....I will trust his list......



It for their HIGH SCHOOL careers; not BASKETBALL careers.  If it were total careers, Damon Bailey, Conley, Edwards, Colescott and Greg Oden wouldn't even sniff the list.

BTW -- My Grandfather had nearly 80 years of watching Ind. HS ball; doesn't mean he can put together the Top 10 list of IND. HS Players.


----------



## SycamoreSage

I can tell you this: Gordon Stauffer throught he had uncovered an untapped uranium mine when he first saw Bird play as a high school sophomore. And I hate to tell WestBadenBoy this but Stauffer was hoping Springs Valley would NOT advance in the IHSAA tournment. The farther SV advanced the more people would see Bird. But the word got out about Bird during his senior years. Stauffer knew that Larry's family and many members of the French Lick/West Baden community wanted him to go to IU. Gordon was heartsick when he learned that Knight was attending Larry's games.

Dave Krider is an experienced high school basketball writer from LaPorte. However, I am not very impressed by the list he compiled. He allowed himself to get caught up with the "current success" of Lawrence North. I have been watching high school basketball for more than 60 years. That does not make me better than others who have studied the sport from an historical perspective. I am one of the founders of a group called the Indiana High School Basketball Hall of Fame Historical Society. There are at least a dozen members in that group olf about 300 who have far greater knowledge than I. The last time I looked, Dave Krider was not a member.


----------



## 4Q_iu

SycamoreSage said:


> I can tell you this: Gordon Stauffer throught he had uncovered an untapped uranium mine when he first saw Bird play as a high school sophomore. And I hate to tell WestBadenBoy this but Stauffer was hoping Springs Valley would NOT advance in the IHSAA tournment. The farther SV advanced the more people would see Bird. But the word got out about Bird during his senior years. Stauffer knew that Larry's family and many members of the French Lick/West Baden community wanted him to go to IU. Gordon was heartsick when he learned that Knight was attending Larry's games.
> 
> Dave Krider is an experienced high school basketball writer from LaPorte. However, I am not very impressed by the list he compiled. He allowed himself to get caught up with the "current success" of Lawrence North. I have been watching high school basketball for more than 60 years. That does not make me better than others who have studied the sport from an historical perspective. I am one of the founders of a group called the Indiana High School Basketball Hall of Fame Historical Society. There are at least a dozen members in that group olf about 300 who have far greater knowledge than I. The last time I looked, Dave Krider was not a member.



Dave Krider also wrote a book about Oden, Conley and their HS careers...
Ironic that they ended up in his Top Ten...


----------



## Sackalot

I am coming into this discussion near the end of it, but I have to say I agree with 8 of the top 10.  I think that putting Conley on there is flat out wrong...he was good, but he was not even close to the top 10 in my book.  Oden, was a great player in high school truly a man among boys but again I have to question if he should be in the top 10.  I hate to say this but I would think that there are 2 far better High School basketball players in the history of Indiana basketball than them.  Remember they were playing after the tournament was ruined and the competition went down the toilet.  

Bird without question should be on that list...absolutely no question at all.  Glenn Robinson could be on there (though I hate to say that...I remember my HS playing against him in Semi-State at Mackey and yelling SAT everytime he got the ball...it was fun!!).  And certainly others could be on there...

I know some may think that Oden is the best and should be on there and that may be true, but #2?  That is certainly too high.


----------



## Sackalot

sycamore51 said:


> I remember as a little kid sitting in the gym at New Albany High School and watching Damon Bailey play in his senior year.  NA won, but he was something special and his daughter is supposed to be the real deal too.  He's the best I've ever seen, but I'm young.



I actually tried to guard Damon in an AAU practice (I was younger but during a practice where our teams were sharing the floor) once and man, he made me look like his bitch!  He was just amazing back then.  He could do anything he wanted at any point against anyone on any court.  Watched him make 6'10 guys fall on their asses...it was amazing


----------



## gostate03

Some of the best that I have seen in person the last 10-15 years or so that are not on the list, not saying that they should be just some guys who were/are really good:
Luke Recker, Michael Menser, Tom Coverdale, Deshawn Thomas, Eric Gordan, Tyrone Johnson, All 3 of the Zellers, Brody Boyd, Chris Thomas, Jason Gardner, Scott May, Gary Harris (still playing at Hamilton Southeastern but is going to be and is already really good!), and I dont think anyone mentioned Steve Alford? I did not see him play in person but I know that he filled it up at New Castle!
I know I am missing alot of people but these are just the ones I got to see in person.


----------



## Gotta Hav

sycamorebacker said:


> Let's get this straight.  So you're saying that Bird was not very good in HS (31 pts and 21 reb with no 3 pt line) and then, after working real hard and playing one college season he INSTANTLY became one of the best college players ever and led his team to the championship game and #1 in the nation the next year.
> Man, he must have been eating a lot of Wheaties!



Don't put words where words were never said.

Did I ever say Bird wasn't any good in High School???  No I didn't.

The point is, WHERE DOES BIRD RANK in Indiana High School Basketball lore.  Is he a top 10 player, or does he even make the top 50?   

We're not talking about working real hard after HS, and eating Wheaties during college, and doing one arm push ups on the back of a garbage truck in French Lick. We are talking about Bird in High School.  

You can drop the 31 chin ups a game, and 21 sit ups, what does that have to do with anything?   How many State Championships did Spring Valley win with Bird?  How many Semi-states did his HS team win?

Off of the top of my head again, are you saying Bird ranks ahead of players like Ray Tolbert and Shawn Kemp?   On Larry Birds best day in High School, Bird would NOT have been the best player on the team, with  either one of the aforementioned players.


----------



## Bally #50

Gotta Hav said:


> Don't put words where words were never said.
> 
> Did I ever say Bird wasn't any good in High School???  No I didn't.
> 
> The point is, WHERE DOES BIRD RANK in Indiana High School Basketball lore.  Is he a top 10 player, or does he even make the top 50?
> 
> We're not talking about working real hard after HS, and eating Wheaties during college, and doing one arm push ups on the back of a garbage truck in French Lick. We are talking about Bird in High School.
> 
> You can drop the 31 chin ups a game, and 21 sit ups, what does that have to do with anything?   How many State Championships did Spring Valley win with Bird?  How many Semi-states did his HS team win?
> 
> Off of the top of my head again, are you saying Bird ranks ahead of players like Ray Tolbert and Shawn Kemp?   On Larry Birds best day in High School, Bird would NOT have been the best player on the team, with  either one of the aforementioned players.


I am a total Bird homer but I agree with Gotta Hav. In his senior year in high school, was he as good as Damon Bailey, Steve Alford, Oscar Robertson et al? The answer is no because Indiana has had so many great ball players at that level. I personally think he is a top 20 player. Probably the top FIVE to play the game AFTER his H.S. career but in Indiana, he had not matured yet and because Indiana has so many strong players, IMO....he was not a top TEN in high school. Top 20 in Indiana history for sure but that top 10 list would have some very serious players and LB was not at that level in high school.


----------



## sycamorebacker

He was a top 10.  I must be nuts but I don't see how anyone can argue that.  And, frankly, you'd have to be basketball illiterate to say Tolbert was better than Bird.


----------



## Gotta Hav

Westbadenboy said:


> seems to me its incredibly silly to argue that Larry Bird was not one of the Top Ten High School players in Indiana history.



It's not silly one bit.  The list of great Indiana HS basketball players is long. Bird may not even rank in the top 50, of the best Indiana High School players of All Time.....

So Bird in High School, was better than Shawn Kemp in High School, right?  Not even if Bird was the Homecoming King, was Bird better than Shawn Kemp in High School.  

And Bird was better than George McGinnis in High School?  ROFLMAO!!!!!!

Even Steve Downing in High School would have eaten Bird for lunch in High School.   I'm adamant about it now, Bird wasn't good enough in High School, to even make the top 50 best Indiana High School players of all time.  

So if Bird was this Indiana High School basketball wizard, why didn't he get on the cover of Sports Illustrated like Rick Mount?


----------



## Gotta Hav

sycamorebacker said:


> He was a top 10.  I must be nuts but I don't see how anyone can argue that.  And, frankly, you'd have to be basketball illiterate to say Tolbert was better than Bird.



Yep, Tolbert was better than Bird in High School.  No doubt about it. Ray Tolbert was a MAN in High School.  You would have to be basketball nitwit to say otherwise.    

Okay, let's argue.  I'll go first.

Ray Tolbert was a Mr. Basketball, Bird wasn't.

Ray Tolbert led his team to a State High School Basketball Championship.  Bird lead his HS to team to what?

Your turn to argue.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Gotta Hav said:


> Yep, Tolbert was better than Bird in High School.  No doubt about it. Ray Tolbert was a MAN in High School.  You would have to be basketball nitwit to say otherwise.
> 
> Okay, let's argue.  I'll go first.
> 
> Ray Tolbert was a Mr. Basketball, Bird wasn't.
> 
> Ray Tolbert led his team to a State High School Basketball Championship.  Bird lead his HS to team to what?
> 
> Your turn to argue.



I saw Tobert in HS and watched him for yrs in college.  He was just an average, good big man.  Tolbert probably ranks in the top 200-250 while Bird would obviously be in the top 10.  There is absolutely no comparison and it would be a waste of time for me to argue with someone that believes there is.  If you wanted to argue Mcginnis or Kemp or Eric Gordon, that's fine.

Where do you rank Bird in all-time college players and where in all-time NBA players?

As far as your "arguments."  Spencer Turner won a state championship.
                                       Roy Taylor won a Mr. Basketball.
                                       Dave Shepherd was Mr. B.  

Were they all better than Bird?  Your points have no point and prove nothing.

it's telling that you are using Mr. Basketball as an argument.  Nobody believes that people voters all over the state that haven't seen 5% of the players in the state can select the best player.


----------



## sycamorebacker

4Q_iu said:


> Dave Krider also wrote a book about Oden, Conley and their HS careers...
> Ironic that they ended up in his Top Ten...



Many who watched LN were talking about Odon and most hardly noticed Conley as that good until he got to OSU.  That fact alone discredits the list.


----------



## 4Q_iu

*Ray Tolbert, IHSAA State BBall Champion??*



Gotta Hav said:


> Yep, Tolbert was better than Bird in High School.  No doubt about it. Ray Tolbert was a MAN in High School.  You would have to be basketball nitwit to say otherwise.
> 
> Okay, let's argue.  I'll go first.
> 
> Ray Tolbert was a Mr. Basketball, Bird wasn't.
> 
> *Ray Tolbert led his team to a State High School Basketball Championship.  *Bird lead his HS to team to what?
> 
> Your turn to argue.



What year? Tolbert's SR season at Anderson Madison Hts, (1977) it was Carmel, in his JR and SO seasons it was Marion, his FROSH year (Bird's SR) year, it was Ft Wayne Northup.

So when did Tolbert win it and where?

Larry won a sectional his SR Season; Tolbert a Regional his Soph season.

Great Sources:
http://indianahsbasketball.homestead.com/boys.html
http://www.indianassa.org/ihsaa-info.html


----------



## Westbadenboy

*Guys  Guys*

First of all, lets see a show of hands among those who don't think Larry was a Top Ten player -- how many of you ACTUALLY saw him play in High School ? ? ?  Doubt few of you did.
  Secondly, one could argue over and over again about the order of the Top Ten -- I'm not saying he was the GREATEST High School player in Indiana history.  But he is definitely one of the Top Ten.
  Thirdly, read my original post.  Larry did not have a chance to compete in Indy for the State title because Bedford was not about to foul him the last two minutes of the Washington Regional.  Besides, there are hundreds of players who played on State Championship teams -- My God, that's not the test of who deserves to be in the Top Ten -- its not the test of anything !
  Fourth, at every point -- against every level of competition in HIGH SCHOOL and on the All-Star team (as I said) he was CLEARLY the best player.  I believe there were co -- Mr. Basketball's that year.  Probably nice guys and decent high school players, but Larry was head and shoulders above them.
  Fifth, sorry -- I saw several of the players mentioned (Tolbert, etc) play in high school -- great players.  But better than Larry in HIGH SCHOOL ?  Wrong !  
  Sixth, is the question "who had the best four year career in high school ?"  Well, obviously Larry is out of the picture.  But I thought the question was who was in the Top Ten High School players of all-time --- in that one, Larry is on the list.
  Seventh, if I understood from the above posts the "author" of this list is from LaPorte ...................well, enough said ................


----------



## indstate33

Sorry Westbadenboy...but I don't think a HS player that only plays 2 years and doesn't win a Mr. Basketball should not be on a top 10 list.....It's not a knock on Larry......nobody is not saying he was a great HS player....

Larry is on the top 10 of greatest College and NBA players......I think its OK that he doesn't make it on the HS list...........if anything, it just makes Larry's total basketball career a tad more remarkable NOT being on the HS list.


----------



## Callmedoc

How old are you guys?????


----------



## Jason Svoboda

So those of you wanting to determine this by a political award (Mr. Basketball) and winning state titles, that means Tyler and Cody Zeller have to be in the Top 10 too, right? Guess DeShaun Thomas has to be there, too.


----------



## Westbadenboy

*And .....*

and Roy Traylor (I think that was his name) as 1974 co-Mr. Basketball must be in the Top Ten ..................... I don't think so !

            and I'm 62


----------



## sycamorebacker

Dgreenwell3 said:


> How old are you guys?????



I'm pretty old.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Westbadenboy said:


> and Roy Traylor (I think that was his name) as 1974 co-Mr. Basketball must be in the Top Ten ..................... I don't think so !
> 
> and I'm 62



I'm 62 also.  What a coincidence.  It was Roy Taylor and Steve Collier I believe, that year.

And nobody has mentioned Scott Skiles, have they?  He was an excellent HS player.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Some stuff to fuel this discussion.

http://www.ihsaa.org/dnn/Sports/Boys/Basketball/tabid/66/Default.aspx


----------



## Lights Out

Gotta Hav said:


> Bird, the #2 all time Indiana HS best basketball player.   How did you come up with that?   Smokin' crack?
> 
> I guess Steve Downing was just nothing, right?   Hell, I put three players from the 1971 East Chicago Washington team ahead of Bird.  That's Pete Trgovich, Tim Stoddard, and Ulysses Bridgeman Jr.  And I guess Bobby Plump was just some chump.
> sure!



Ulysses?  His mom might have called him that, but I am pretty sure you are talking about Junior Bridgeman.  That ECW team was loaded!!  Trgovich played for Wooden at UCLA, along with Bill Walton.  Tim Stoddard went on to play professional baseball.  Bridgeman had a great college career too.  That was a special team.


----------



## indstate33

Westbadenboy said:


> Seventh, if I understood from the above posts the "author" of this list is from LaPorte ...................well, enough said ................



And the authors of all the posts stating Larry should be on the top 10...are from Indiana State University.......well, enough said.........LOL


----------



## sycamorebacker

indstate33 said:


> And the authors of all the posts stating Larry should be on the top 10...are from Indiana State University.......well, enough said.........LOL



You're right.  I know I'm biased.  
And I only saw him once or twice in the all-star games.  I just don't think it's possible for him to improve from HS that much after 2 years of college to be drafted by the Celtics.  And they knew they couldn't have him for a year!  
And all of the other players improved too, so you can't compare Bird at 16 yrs to other players without extrapolating the other players back to 16.  

All of the arguments that say he is NOT a top 10 are flawed with enormous invalid assumptions. 

(Sorry I turned your joke into a serious discussion.)


----------



## dr. bucket

this is all kind of interesting in light of the fact that the greatest player in history would most likely be somewhere on the list of the worst high school players ever than on any list for the best. he had to share a uniform with someone his first year on the high school team, meaning he dressed every other game and seldom played anyway. he had one scholarship offer that he received about the time he was to take a blue collar job after graduating from high school. from there his accomplishments dwarf everyone else's in the sport.

all of which is a long way of saying lists and rankings mean nothing. it's all in the person performing his art or craft and the enjoyment of that performance. beauty after all is in the eye of the beholder, and some things just can't be measured.

argue away if you must


----------



## indstate33

What does Larry's College game have anything to do with the HS list Sycamore?  We are strictly comparing Larry's 4 years of HS (Fr/So years on the bench) to all the other great players' 4 years.  

Why don't we see people on the lists for "Greatest College Players" who rode the bench their Fr and So years...but were great their Jr and Sr year? 

Nobody will be able to win this debate......


----------



## sycamorebacker

I guess people are changing this.  The list says nothing about career.  Hey, let's go back to Jr high and scrutinize their "career."  I don't know how good Bird was his fr and so year and I don't care.

Can anyone name another player for me that averaged over 30 pts and 20 rebs their senior year in HS?


----------



## 4Q_iu

indstate33 said:


> What does Larry's College game have anything to do with the HS list Sycamore?  We are strictly comparing Larry's 4 years of HS (Fr/So years on the bench) to all the other great players' 4 years.
> 
> Why don't we see people on the lists for "Greatest College Players" who rode the bench their Fr and So years...but were great their Jr and Sr year?
> 
> Nobody will be able to win this debate......



Well, some would start with Larry, add Mike "The Gambler" Jordan and...


----------



## dr. bucket

sycamorebacker said:


> i think it's crazy that some person above said he wasn't that good in HS, yet after two yrs of college ball, the Celtics drafted him in the first round ONE YEAR EARLY knowing they had to wait for him.


 
four years after high school. he weighed 130 pounds as a high school junior


----------



## dr. bucket

sycamorebacker said:


> I guess people are changing this.  The list says nothing about career.  Hey, let's go back to Jr high and scrutinize their "career."  I don't know how good Bird was his fr and so year and I don't care.
> 
> Can anyone name another player for me that averaged over 30 pts and 20 rebs their senior year in HS?




probably wilt chamberlain


----------



## IndyTreeFan

dr. bucket said:


> this is all kind of interesting in light of the fact that the greatest player in history would most likely be somewhere on the list of the worst high school players ever than on any list for the best. he had to share a uniform with someone his first year on the high school team, meaning he dressed every other game and seldom played anyway. he had one scholarship offer that he received about the time he was to take a blue collar job after graduating from high school. from there his accomplishments dwarf everyone else's in the sport.
> 
> all of which is a long way of saying lists and rankings mean nothing. it's all in the person performing his art or craft and the enjoyment of that performance. beauty after all is in the eye of the beholder, and some things just can't be measured.
> 
> argue away if you must



I've stayed out of this discussion simply because I'm a total homer, and in my eyes, Bird is just the best player ever to pick up a basketball at any level.  

The good doctor's quote above, though, is spot on and is the best thing I've read in this whole thread.


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> probably wilt chamberlain



Maybe Lewis Alcindor and / or Bill Walton


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> Maybe Lewis Alcindor and / or Bill Walton



wilt averaged 47.6 points per game his senior year in high school and 33 for his career. still looking for rebound totals.

of course we all know what wilt's most important number was


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> wilt averaged 47.6 points per game his senior year in high school and 33 for his career. still looking for rebound totals.
> 
> of course we all know what wilt's most important number was



Yep, the 100 he dropped in Harrisburg.

That 'other' number is myth


----------



## Gotta Hav

4Q_iu said:


> Great Sources:
> http://indianahsbasketball.homestead.com/boys.html
> http://www.indianassa.org/ihsaa-info.html



Hey, this is a sports blog....some of us make this stuff up as we go.

Don't ask me how I got that idea that he did.  Damn facts and all.


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> Yep, the 100 he dropped in Harrisburg.
> 
> That 'other' number is myth



hershey


----------



## Gotta Hav

Dgreenwell3 said:


> How old are you guys?????



Old enough to vividly remember when Garrett High School had  7' and 6'10" starters in the mid sixties.  Their names were Chuck Bavis and Jim Heitz.

Bavis went on to play at Purdue and had the misfortune of having to guard Lew Alcindor in the 1969 NCAA Championship game against UCLA.

Even living in Sullivan Indiana, you heard of the 1966 Garrett team.  The only reason that Garrett team didn't go further in the state tournament in 1966 was, they had to play Fort Wayne South and Indiana All Star Willie Long in the Fort Wayne Regional....Willie Long also played for Bob King at New Mexico....the same Bob King who coached Larry Bird.

And.........just barely old enough to remember Tom and Dick VanArsdale playing at Manual HS in Indianapolis in 1961....the VanArsdale twins went on to star at IU and in the NBA for many years... 

The VanArsdale twins are another example of players who would rank ahead of Bird.....by any sense of measure and imagination.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Gotta Hav said:


> The VanArsdale twins are another example of players who would rank ahead of Bird.....by any sense of measure and imagination.



Why not.  Heck, put everyone in front of him.  He wasn't any good. 

You are funny, though. 

How many of Bird's HS games did you see?  You seem to be an authority on how he wasn't.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Gotta Hav said:


> *Hey, this is a sports blog....some of us make this stuff up as we go.*
> 
> Don't ask me how I got that idea that he did.  Damn facts and all.



Sorry about that 'bucket of reality...  Opining on some things are great but sometimes ya have to let the facts speak for themselves! :bigsmile:

It's interesting to look at past winners (Mr BBall, State titles, etc) or the All-Star team and wonder how in the world...  i.e.  Scott Skiles NOT being Mr BBall...  Matt Renn NOT being an Ind. All-Star...  That Milan was in the 1953 IHSAA Final Four (losing in the morning game...)


----------



## 4Q_iu

Gotta Hav said:


> Old enough to vividly remember when Garrett High School had  7' and 6'10" starters in the mid sixties.  Their names were Chuck Bavis and Jim Heitz.
> 
> *Bavis went on to play at Purdue and had the misfortune of having to guard Lew Alcindor in the 1969 NCAA Championship game against UCLA.*



Hate to toss another bucket of reality; Bavis broke his collarbone in the Regional against Miami (OH).  Had west laffy had Bavis; UCLA may have won but it likely wouldn't have been by 20.  Bavis played Alcindor tough in westwood that season, Alcindor had rarely dealt with a player as big as Bavis.  UCLA won by 12 but Alcindor worked for it.  Bavis soph year he also gave Alcindor fits, UCLA won by 2 in west lafffy.


----------



## Gotta Hav

sycamorebacker said:


> Why not.  Heck, put everyone in front of him.  He wasn't any good.
> 
> You are funny, though.
> 
> How many of Bird's HS games did you see?  You seem to be an authority on how he wasn't.



Again, I never said Bird wasn't any good in HIGH SCHOOL.....I'll repeat....I never said he wasn't any good.  

You're funny too.  

I didn't see any of his games....how many HS games of Bird, did anyone ever see?

I guess this means you saw Billy Shepherd, Kent Benson, Shawn Kemp, The VanArsdales, Clyde Lovellete, Luke Recker, Willie Long, Billy Keller, Steve Downing, Larry Humes,  Don Schlundt, etc.etc. etc. etc. etc. all play in High School?


----------



## Gotta Hav

4Q_iu said:


> Hate to toss another bucket of reality; Bavis broke his collarbone in the Regional against Miami (OH).  Had west laffy had Bavis; UCLA may have won but it likely wouldn't have been by 20.  Bavis played Alcindor tough in westwood that season, Alcindor had rarely dealt with a player as big as Bavis.  UCLA won by 12 but Alcindor worked for it.  Bavis soph year he also gave Alcindor fits, UCLA won by 2 in west lafffy.



Thanks for the corrections!!!


----------



## sycamorebacker

Gotta Hav said:


> Again, I never said Bird wasn't any good in HIGH SCHOOL.....I'll repeat....I never said he wasn't any good.
> 
> You're funny too.
> 
> I didn't see any of his games....how many HS games of Bird, did anyone ever see?
> 
> I guess this means you saw Billy Shepherd, Kent Benson, Shawn Kemp, The VanArsdales, Clyde Lovellete, Luke Recker, Willie Long, Billy Keller, Steve Downing, Larry Humes,  Don Schlundt, etc.etc. etc. etc. etc. all play in High School?



It is normal procedure on here that when someone sees a player, they post their opinion and it usually gets some appreciation and respect.  The poster from West Baden posted but you chose to ignore it.  I would trust him more than someone like you that never saw him play.  I think if I saw someone get 31 pts and 21 reb in one of his "average" performances, i would be pretty impressed.  
I've seen a lot of players mentioned above and many others since the mid 60's.  I don't recall any first round draft picks that were not darn good HS players.  So, I guess my opinion of Bird's HS play is based on our West Baden friend, probabilities, and his SR stats.

As an example, I saw that Dawson on our all-star team average 28 pts ad 18 reb.  I wasn't that sold on him in last year's summer all-star games, but I am a believer now and he is ranked very high nationally.  It's just a matter of getting 4 out of 2+2.  I don't understand your problem if you did not see Bird in HS.  You actually have nothing to base your opinion on while all the facts support me.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Gotta Hav said:


> Again, I never said Bird wasn't any good in HIGH SCHOOL.....I'll repeat....I never said he wasn't any good.
> 
> You're funny too.
> 
> I didn't see any of his games....how many HS games of Bird, did anyone ever see?
> 
> I guess this means you saw Billy Shepherd, Kent Benson, Shawn Kemp, The VanArsdales, Clyde Lovellete, Luke Recker, Willie Long, Billy Keller, Steve Downing, Larry Humes,  Don Schlundt, etc.etc. etc. etc. etc. all play in High School?



I wanted to respond to this post again and say more.  Sorry.  I saw Keller, Benson, Kemp, Recker, Long, Downing in HS, 6 of them live.  didn't see all of them.  I saw VanArsdales, but i was too young to remember.  I've seen Oscar on tape.  
I assume you think Bird is in the top 5 all-time college players.  

So, from that I assume that you believe that you cannot watch a college SO play and have an idea what kind of HS player they were (at 95% CI +- 5%).

That might be the difference between you and me.  I know I can tell because I've done it hundreds of times.


----------



## Gotta Hav

sycamorebacker said:


> It is normal procedure on here that when someone sees a player, they post their opinion and it usually gets some appreciation and respect.  The poster from West Baden posted but you chose to ignore it.  I would trust him more than someone like you that never saw him play.  I think if I saw someone get 31 pts and 21 reb in one of his "average" performances, i would be pretty impressed.
> I've seen a lot of players mentioned above and many others since the mid 60's.  I don't recall any first round draft picks that were not darn good HS players.  So, *I guess my opinion *of Bird's HS play is based on our West Baden friend, probabilities, and his SR stats.
> 
> As an example, I saw that Dawson on our all-star team average 28 pts ad 18 reb.  I wasn't that sold on him in last year's summer all-star games, but I am a believer now and he is ranked very high nationally.  It's just a matter of *getting* *4 out of 2+2.*  I don't understand your problem if you did not see Bird in HS.  You actually have nothing to base your opinion on while* all the facts support me*.



Look, when I signed up to post on SP, I excepted and/or modified some of the terms and conditions as follows:

1. Follow normal procedure
2. Respect all posts and opinions
4. Refuse participation in any math problems like* 2+2 equals whatever*
5. Never stigmitize someone for using the phrase *"I guess my opinion"*
6. Call someone out for making ambigous statements like *"all the facts support me"*
7. Trust anyone from West Baden
8. Right of refusal to respond to biased posts
9. Let 4Q_IU vet my blogs in advance of posting....

Here's a pretty cool montage of Larry....some genius passing and awesome shooting...but none of it from the High School years, that would support Bird in top 10, or even in the top 50 of the best IN HS BB players, ever.  

If the thread was about college, or pro....well I'm all in with Bird in the top 10, but HS....get real.  

http://www.johndickerson.com/mtblog/2009/02/its-about-passing-larry-bird-h.html


----------



## Westbadenboy

*Funny thing is .............*

This is my last post on this thread ............. maybe I've misssed it, but it seems I'm the only person on here who saw Larry in HIGH SCHOOL and also many of the other great high school players in Indiana.  I'm not saying I'm always right -- certainly this is all a matter of opinion.  
But no one appears to actually contradicting anything I said in my earlier posts.  If you had actually seen Larry play in high school, followed as various major powers tried to recruit him, watched as he dominated the Indiana All-Star games when he was allowed to play by the knuckleheaded coach (its not my OPINION he was by far the best player out there -- the FACTS clearly support that).  
Was he shy and uncomfortable off the court around new surroundings -- sure.
Was he a dominant player on the court in EVERY situation he encounter -- Definitely !  Both Jasper and Bedford in the Washington Regional had pretty good BIG kids -- Larry kicked their butt.


----------



## Gotta Hav

sycamorebacker said:


> I wanted to respond to this post again and say more.  Sorry.  I saw Keller, Benson, Kemp, Recker, Long, Downing in HS, 6 of them live.  didn't see all of them.  I saw VanArsdales, but i was too young to remember.  I've seen Oscar on tape.
> I assume you think Bird is in the top 5 all-time college players.
> 
> So, from that I assume that you believe that you cannot watch a college SO play and have an idea what kind of HS player they were *(at 95% CI +- 5%).*
> That might be the difference between you and me.  I know I can tell because I've done it hundreds of times.



Hey, that's two of us....I wanna say more too, but I'm NOT going to use any of that weird E = mc2 math stuff.

If Larry Bird is this #2 ALL TIME, or Top Ten ALL TIME Indiana High School basketball player, then what were the Sports Headlines when he left IU?  What were the sports headlines when Bird signed his IU LOI?  And no less important, what were the sports headlines when he came to ISU?  

And if LB was this cult of Indiana High School basketball personality...why didn't the NBA just sign him, and at least place him in a developmental league after he left IU?  I mean common sense would suggest that, correct?  You do believe in common sense, right?

Back to those headlines....did any of those headlines back in the day, read like this?

NBA DRAFTS INDIANA UNIVERSITY DROP OUT AND INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL SENSATION LARRY BIRD

LEGENDARY INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL BALLER LARRY BIRD LEAVES IU

2nd GREATEST INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL BALL PLAYER OF ALL TIME, LARRY BIRD, LEAVES IU

ACC, SEC AND BIG TEN SCHOOLS COURT FABLED INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL STAR LARRY BIRD AFTER HE LEAVES IU

TOP TEN ALL TIME INDIANA HS PLAYER LARRY BIRD ENROLLS AT NORTHWOOD INSTITUTE

INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL SUPERSTAR LARRY BIRD NOW WORKS MAGIC AS FRENCH LICK SANITATION ENGINEER

MYTHICAL INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL BALL PLAYER LARRY BIRD ENROLLS AT ISU

HIGH SCHOOL PHENOM LARRY BIRD NOW AT INDIANA STATE

BASKETBALL WORLD BEWILDERED AND IN AWE THAT INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL SENSATION LARRY BIRD PICKS UP BASKETBALL AGAIN AT INDIANA STATE UNIVERSITY

None of those headlines ever existed.   

Those headlines only exist in some equation driven 95% CI +- 5% fantasy, and in the prejudice driven dreams of some ISU sports fans. 

Larry Bird, for all his greatness in College and all the wonder that he brought us as an NBA professional, does not mean that Larry Bird ever had legendary Indiana High School basketball status....the headlines that never existed, prove it.


----------



## region rat

*Enough!*

Bird, one of the 3 best NBA players, number one best college player, and relatively unknown High School players in a small community that was a good player.


----------



## RafterRat

What were John Wooden's high school stats? Would he be worthy of a top 10 mention?


----------



## sycamorebacker

Gotta Hav said:


> Hey, that's two of us....I wanna say more too, but I'm NOT going to use any of that weird E = mc2 math stuff.
> 
> If Larry Bird is this #2 ALL TIME, or Top Ten ALL TIME Indiana High School basketball player, then what were the Sports Headlines when he left IU?  What were the sports headlines when Bird signed his IU LOI?  And no less important, what were the sports headlines when he came to ISU?
> 
> And if LB was this cult of Indiana High School basketball personality...why didn't the NBA just sign him, and at least place him in a developmental league after he left IU?  I mean common sense would suggest that, correct?  You do believe in common sense, right?
> 
> Back to those headlines....did any of those headlines back in the day, read like this?
> 
> NBA DRAFTS INDIANA UNIVERSITY DROP OUT AND INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL SENSATION LARRY BIRD
> 
> LEGENDARY INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL BALLER LARRY BIRD LEAVES IU
> 
> 2nd GREATEST INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL BALL PLAYER OF ALL TIME, LARRY BIRD, LEAVES IU
> 
> ACC, SEC AND BIG TEN SCHOOLS COURT FABLED INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL STAR LARRY BIRD AFTER HE LEAVES IU
> 
> TOP TEN ALL TIME INDIANA HS PLAYER LARRY BIRD ENROLLS AT NORTHWOOD INSTITUTE
> 
> INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL SUPERSTAR LARRY BIRD NOW WORKS MAGIC AS FRENCH LICK SANITATION ENGINEER
> 
> MYTHICAL INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL BALL PLAYER LARRY BIRD ENROLLS AT ISU
> 
> HIGH SCHOOL PHENOM LARRY BIRD NOW AT INDIANA STATE
> 
> BASKETBALL WORLD BEWILDERED AND IN AWE THAT INDIANA HIGH SCHOOL SENSATION LARRY BIRD PICKS UP BASKETBALL AGAIN AT INDIANA STATE UNIVERSITY
> 
> None of those headlines ever existed.
> 
> Those headlines only exist in some equation driven 95% CI +- 5% fantasy, and in the prejudice driven dreams of some ISU sports fans.
> 
> Larry Bird, for all his greatness in College and all the wonder that he brought us as an NBA professional, does not mean that Larry Bird ever had legendary Indiana High School basketball status....the headlines that never existed, prove it.



If you are asking me to prove it, I don't need to.  The burden of proof is on you.  The odds of Bird "improving" to one of the best college players in history from a non-top-10 HS career are 10000 to 1.  All you've talked about is headlines and awards and completely ignored the facts. 
It's just a matter of simple common sense. 


I give up.  You'll never admit that you are wrong.

By the way, Gary Donna tried to get the Pacers to get him when he dropped out of IU.  He must have looked pretty good.

One last point.  I've seen thousands of basketball games and I have only see a player get 30 pts and 20 rebounds ONE time and that is what Bird AVERAGED his SR yr.  
How many have you seen?


----------



## Greene Co.

Westbadenboy said:


> This is my last post on this thread ............. maybe I've misssed it, but it seems I'm the only person on here who saw Larry in HIGH SCHOOL and also many of the other great high school players in Indiana.  I'm not saying I'm always right -- certainly this is all a matter of opinion.
> But no one appears to actually contradicting anything I said in my earlier posts.  If you had actually seen Larry play in high school, followed as various major powers tried to recruit him, watched as he dominated the Indiana All-Star games when he was allowed to play by the knuckleheaded coach (its not my OPINION he was by far the best player out there -- the FACTS clearly support that).
> Was he shy and uncomfortable off the court around new surroundings -- sure.
> Was he a dominant player on the court in EVERY situation he encounter -- Definitely !  Both Jasper and Bedford in the Washington Regional had pretty good BIG kids -- Larry kicked their butt.



I was young but I saw him play as well. I was at the Washington Regional as well.  Still hate Bedford!


----------



## sycamorebacker

Greene Co. said:


> I was young but I saw him play as well. I was at the Washington Regional as well.  Still hate Bedford!



If you were young, you surely heard the adults talking.  What did they say?


----------



## Greene Co.

I was old enough to remember the game.  We thought Loogottee would beat Bedford and we would get another crack at them.  They beat Valley that year at our place.  Beezer Carns called a time out late in that game and Valley was out of time outs.  Lost a close one.  Could not have gotten any more people in the SV gym.  People were every where.  No room to get to the restroom and forget popcorn.


----------



## sycamorebacker

In Bird's FIRST college season, he had 77 steals in 28 games.  That in itself is incredible.
FG% .544
pts  32.8
reb  13.3
127 assists

I think the Celtics knew about him pretty early and attended ISU games.  I remember hearing Hodges say that Bird would be a great player even if he couldn't shoot.


----------



## indstate33

JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ Sycamorebacker....I don't think you get this debate.....we are not talking anything about how much he couldn't have improved...or did improve from HS to his second year at ISU.....

Top 10 HS basketball players means just that......a player's HS career.....FR, So, JR, and Sr years............Bird was Great his Jr and Sr year.....but look at the top 10 list........those players were great from Fr to Sr......4 years.....

If you want to start a list of the top 10 Jr/Sr High School players in Indiana History....then I will gladly vote for Larry to be on that list......but when we have people that have played all 4 years....and have dominated at the top level of the game (State Finals).....then you have give them a little more validation/credit than Larry.......

sorry to disappoint you.....Larry Legend cannot be on EVERY Basketball List....

Only about 99%....that 1% left off will be on the top 10 list we are talking about.........


You say the odds are 10000 to 1 that Larry could have improved as much from HS to his Jr year at State......What would you say are the Odds of a Fr kid in HS who could not even play to go on to be 1 of the GREATEST NBA players in the History of the word......I would say 10,000,000 to 1......and Larry did that.......so I am sure he could handle the 10,000 to 1 odds you gave him

This debate if fun.....


----------



## sycamorebacker

indstate33 said:


> JEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ Sycamorebacker....I don't think you get this debate.....we are not talking anything about how much he couldn't have improved...or did improve from HS to his second year at ISU.....
> 
> Top 10 HS basketball players means just that......a player's HS career.....FR, So, JR, and Sr years............Bird was Great his Jr and Sr year.....but look at the top 10 list........those players were great from Fr to Sr......4 years.....
> 
> If you want to start a list of the top 10 Jr/Sr High School players in Indiana History....then I will gladly vote for Larry to be on that list......but when we have people that have played all 4 years....and have dominated at the top level of the game (State Finals).....then you have give them a little more validation/credit than Larry.......
> 
> sorry to disappoint you.....Larry Legend cannot be on EVERY Basketball List....
> 
> Only about 99%....that 1% left off will be on the top 10 list we are talking about.........
> 
> 
> You say the odds are 10000 to 1 that Larry could have improved as much from HS to his Jr year at State......What would you say are the Odds of a Fr kid in HS who could not even play to go on to be 1 of the GREATEST NBA players in the History of the word......I would say 10,000,000 to 1......and Larry did that.......so I am sure he could handle the 10,000 to 1 odds you gave him
> 
> This debate if fun.....



I think your post is good, but I don't think the list mentions 4 years.  I believe if you look back at the fr/so years for some of them on the list, they were not that dominant.  Even though McGinnis and Downing were dominant in '69, I don't remember (and I can't remember a lot of stuff) that Indpls Washington team doing that much when they were juniors.  Very, very few great players "lead" their HS team to greatness when they are Fr or Soph.  We can all remember Bailey as a freshman.  But many on the list were unheard of when they were fr/soph.
By the way, did you notice in the article that he includes their college and pro bios?


----------



## dr. bucket

sycamorebacker said:


> If you are asking me to prove it, I don't need to.  The burden of proof is on you.  The odds of Bird "improving" to one of the best college players in history from a non-top-10 HS career are 10000 to 1.  All you've talked about is headlines and awards and completely ignored the facts.
> It's just a matter of simple common sense.
> 
> 
> I give up.  You'll never admit that you are wrong.
> 
> By the way, Gary Donna tried to get the Pacers to get him when he dropped out of IU.  He must have looked pretty good.
> 
> One last point.  I've seen thousands of basketball games and I have only see a player get 30 pts and 20 rebounds ONE time and that is what Bird AVERAGED his SR yr.
> How many have you seen?



ask bill russell about improving from high school to college

ask worthy what he saw in jordan at unc.

see what coach knight says pp 182-183 
http://books.google.com/books?id=BU...ge&q=jim jones on bird in high school&f=false


----------



## sycamorebacker

dr. bucket said:


> see what coach knight says pp 182-183
> http://books.google.com/books?id=BU...ge&q=jim jones on bird in high school&f=false



interesting.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Bill Russell:  
Russell was ignored by college recruiters and did not receive a single letter of interest until Hal DeJulio from the University of San Francisco (USF) watched him in a high school game. DeJulio was not impressed by Russell's meager scoring and "atrocious fundamentals",[8] but sensed that the young center had an extraordinary instinct for the game, especially in clutch situations.[8] When DeJulio offered Russell a scholarship, the latter eagerly accepted.[6]

 Jordan: 
As a senior, he was selected to the McDonald's All-American Team[9] after averaging a triple-double: 29.2 points, 11.6 rebounds, and 10.1 assists.[10]

Big guys like Russell are often late bloomers.
Looks like Jordan was ahead of Bird in HS.  Of course they should improve a whole bunch from college to pro, but I don't think I was that impressed with Jordan in college.  I guess when you are trying to play as a team you look different from playing one-on-one in the NBA.  Obviously, he always had a lot of athletic ability.


----------



## Gotta Hav

sycamorebacker said:


> If you are asking me to prove it, I don't need to.  The burden of proof is on you.  The odds of Bird "improving" to one of the best college players in history from a non-top-10 HS career are 10000 to 1.  All you've talked about is headlines and awards and completely ignored the facts.
> It's just a matter of simple common sense.
> 
> *I give up.  You'll never admit that you are wrong.*
> 
> By the way, Gary Donna tried to get the Pacers to get him when he dropped out of IU.  He must have looked pretty good.
> 
> One last point.  *I've seen thousands of basketball games *and I have only see a player get 30 pts and 20 rebounds ONE time and that is what Bird AVERAGED his SR yr.
> How many have you seen?



Dude, you  sure like equations, ratios and math...you've got the 10000 to 1 thing, the whatever (at 95% CI +- 5%), and Einstein’s “getting 4 out of 2+2.”  Brilliant!!!

Why do you keep bringing up "Bird improving to be one of the best college players"?   Are you out of  Ritalin?  I believe you are, you're definitely not focusing on the thread.

Reminder, the thread is about whether Larry Bird is a top ten, All Time Indiana High School Basketball player, and that’s it.   If it was my thread, I would have started it as, “Does Larry Bird even qualify as a top 50 All Time Indiana High School Great?”  

Also, usually the first story teller doesn’t have a chance.  Reference your statement “I've seen thousands of basketball games”.   A normal response would be, “Oh yeah, I've seen Tens of Thousands of basketball games.”   I’m not doing that on this one cuz, I don’t want that Sniper, 4Q_IU doing some fact check on me.

Anyway, you’ve been to thousands of games.   Let’s say that’s not 9,000 and that’s not 1,000 games.   That’s not 7,000 High School games and it’s not 3,000.   Cuz, like you said, you’ve been to thousands of High School basketball games.  So, for conversation sake, let’s say you’ve been to 5,000 High School basketball games.   From the things you’ve said you’re not 60 years old, and you’re not 45.  You’re more like 52 + or - 2 years or so.

In a typical Indiana HS Boys Basketball year, the boys play what….22 games in a season?  

So if you’ve been going to thousands of games, in 40 years at the pace of going to 22 High School games a year…you would have only seen 880 games.   Let’s double the pace of games over 40 years and let’s just say for the benefit of the doubt, you went to 44 games a year!!!!  Over 40 years that’s still only 1,760 games.   Still not into the thousands.  To attend thousands, e.g. 5,000 games.  You would have needed to go to 100 games a year over 50 years to get to the magical “I’ve seen thousands of High School Basketball games."   Sounds like someone is using some Wilt Chamberlain math.  

Remember when Wilt said that he had sex with 20,000 or 40,000 women.  Well again, do the math and see how many women that is a day. If it was 20,000.…that’s two women a day, every day for 30 years.  I normally don’t use my Bullshit Card on other peoples stories.  Hey, why rain on their parades, but in the case of 40,000 women, I’m calling “Bullshit”.    Excuse me for the sidebar story, but you see where I went with that, right?

Anyway, I did find this cool thread that has actual copies of Newspapers stories.  The first one is about Larry Bird playing in the Indiana All Star vs. Kentucky All Star game.   Did you know that the coach of the Indiana All Star barely let Larry Bird play in any of those two games?

Yeah, go figure.  Can you imagine that the Headline Title of the story is, ALL STAR ANGUISH HARD FOR BIRD.   The aritcle talks about “Bird, a relatively unknown player from Springs Valley High School.”   It also goes into detail about Kirby Overman, the coach of the Indiana All Star not playing Bird in the Ky vs. In All Star games.  

Go figure backer, facts stating that Bird is a virtual “unknown” in one article and the coach of Indiana All Star didn’t play him the All Star games.    Now how in the world does a top ten, All Time Indiana High School great not get to play much, if any at all in games like that?   Wow.  

The article further states that Bird’s only best claim to credibility was the scholarship that he accepted to Indiana University….and that’s it.

Now that really contradicts what you’re saying.  You say Bird is this mystical Indiana High School phenom ball player that some have even said, he may even be the 2nd Greatest Indiana High School Ball Player of All Time.  Again, I'm calling BULLSHIT.   I’ve said all along he wasn’t and he isn’t, and he will  only be that....in your dreams. 

I’m going to re-evaluate my list now, and if see if Bird even qualifies to be in the Top 100 All Time Indiana High School greats.   When I get done, I doubt it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=_p...=onepage&q=1974 indiana all star team&f=false


----------



## sycamorebacker

I want to clear up a few things.  I don't need to respond to most of your post. 
I am 62.  I have seen thousands of games, not HS games.  And I am including TV games.  I have seen probably 95% of our all-stars play since '65.  And not all of those in person.  I ONLY saw the HS Bird in the all-star game. In the 50 years I've been watching HS and college basketball, I only recall seeing a 30 pt, 20 reb game one time.  I think this is a key point.  That is about what Bird (and Jordan) AVERAGED their senior years. 
You are right.  I don't recall Bird playing a lot in the all-star games.  He got 12pts the first game and that was probably just a few minutes.  But so what?

You can  bet your life if NC came up with a list, Jordan would be on it.  I think Krider left him off on purpose to prove some kind of point about his basketball "genius."   You can bet that some of those 10 players were not great players their FR/SO years in HS and many were not better than Bird in their SR seasons.  What did Oden and Conley do their FR/SO years?  You surely see that ONE point.   

This is my last post on this.  I think we covered the topic quite thoroughly (like 99% +-2%).


----------



## Gotta Hav

4Q_iu said:


> Just a couple of thoughts...
> 
> Joe B Hall wanted him in Lexington, Denny Crum wanted him in Louisville, he (Larry) wasn't interested in West Lafayette because Walter Jordan and Wayne Walls were already signed and he knew his position was 'stacked'; State wanted him, the Sphincter of Gloomington wanted him; have to believe McCutchan wanted him in Evansville, as did  Joe Sexton and Jim Holstein at ISU-Muncie.



Hey SNIPER, 

Since you're so good at SNIPING people on here for running their chops and not getting some of their facts straight....me included, and I thanked you for your corrections.

I'll bet you a Dr. Bucket size bucket of cold beers and all the pizza you can eat...at a place of your choosing, if you can actually prove any of that Joe B Hall and Denny Crum and W. Lafayette silliness.

Don't forget, Springs Valley is deep in the heart of the Lexington, Louisville, and Gloomington triangle. 

I mean, if I found that article about Bird getting dissed by Overman in the IN KY All Star games, you should be able to find archived records that Joe B, Denny Crum and W. Lafayette wanted Bird.  

You should be able to find archived sports records in both the Lexington and Louisville papers.  I mean if Bird was this HOT commodity, he would be written about for weeks on end, in those papers.  Plus don't forget, we aren't talking 1929 newspaper records, we're talking the recent records of 1974!

And one final note for anyone else, Birds's 31 ppg and 21 rpg....are great numbers.....IF you're going against Terre Haute and Evansville schools...but who did SV play?  Medora, Paoli, Orleans, Knob Creek?  For goodness sakes folks...we're aren't talking about renowned schools of Indiana basketball lore.  We're talking about nobody schools that Springs Valley had to play.....in a frickin' era that sucked for Southern Indiana basketball.   

You know what, I'm not even going to put Bird in my top 200 All Time Indiana High School Greats now.  Orleans and Paoli....yep, that's some real barn burning powerhouses there.  Yeehaw!

Sniper, go get those facts that you stated about Louisville and Kentucky wanting Bird, so that I can either start buying the beers and pizza, or prepare one of my Wilt Chamberlain analysis of your post.


----------



## BankShot

While not the "expert" of my ol' buddy, 'Backer, like many of you, I've seen a few HS & college hoop games over my 5.9 (+ or - .1) decades of existence. The really neat part of this has been that my "formative" years (1951-63) were spent in the 'Haute, while from '64 to '69 (Castle HS grad) I was nurtured to Evansville-area sports prior to my return to TH & Sycamore Land. 

As Sage previously mentioned, TH Garfield's 6'8" F *TERRY DISCHINGER *has to rank in the Top 10. Besides his hoop skills, he was also an IHSAA All-State hurdler and outstanding baseball player. His TH Babe Ruth squad won the National Championship. I still can recall the huge pics on the Garfield gym walls of both him, 6'9" *CLYDE LOVELETTE*, and Olympian hurdler, GREG BELL, all Purple Eagle alums. Hard to think that ONE HS could have two (2) players in the Top 10, but:

http://www.hoopszone.net/Kansas/Kansas/Players/L/lovellette-clyde.htm

Unfortunately, Garfield (like all TH HS's) never claimed an IHSAA state championship in basketball.

Yes, I saw* LARRY HUMES*, post-IN Mr, Basketball @ Madison HS, play @ UE and avg. close to 30PG in Small College hoops for three (3) straight yrs. At only 6'4", Humes had an arsenal of acrobatic INSIDE moves that players TODAY would marvel at. He was a forward, rarely shooting beyond 15'. Remind you, there was no Division II or III or IV.1, etc...only MAJOR or SMALL COLLEGE - you were one or the other. Humes must rank somewhere in the "Top 10," given that Madison HS won the IHSAA his Senior year.

In '67 I saw *BOBBY FORD *(only a Jr. @ E-ville North) destroy the Final Four game IHSAA scoring record, that was broken in *'69* by Indpls. Washington's *GEORGE MCGINNIS*. Ford, a long-time Purdue Network announcer, ultimately became an All-Big Ten performer for the Boilers. I can still see Michigan HC *JOHNY OR*R seated in the top row of the Castle HS gym, scouting FORD. He must've been one-helluva hot commodity for ORR to travel from Ann Arbor to Paradise! On the heels of the Cazzie Russell Era, maybe he was thinking that Ford might lead the Wolverines back to the Final Four? Here's a memory of Ford's clutch, game winning last second shot  v. Garfield in the '67 Semi-State - #50 was my cuz, and #54, 20 & 42 all became ISU Sycamores (Paul Siebenmorgan, Mike Turner & Howard Williams), who beat Purdue & Ford in '70 @ W. Lafayette:

http://announcements.experienceterrehaute.com/?p=754

McGinnis was a "man-child"...musculature & power that few HSers ever feature. He has to rank near the TOP of the "Top 10." Rarely do ya see GRACEFULNESS & POWER combined inside. Big George had 'em both. While Ford was a "great" HS player and his squad won the IHSAA during his Jr. yr., I'm not sure that he qualifies for the Top 10, but suredly the Top 20. His era of hoop in E-ville was the GREATEST ever in the Pocket City, as the Sectional was always a dog fight among 4 or more schools. No patsies during that era. 

Just a comment on Bird and the media during his HS dayz. French Lick is triangled between E-ville & Louisville, which is not a sportswriting "beaten path." However, you'd think that a HS icon/deity like Bird would've received some notoriety during his dayz, wouldn't ya?  My neighbor in '74 (Don White) was a sportswriter for the E-ville Courier and Press (like the TH Tribune, the afternoon Press was discontinued). While chatting w/ White in '74, he mentioned LB, but I never saw any newsprint  re: him, which  questions his "greatness" in HS. 

I also agree re: the LEVEL of HS hoop played in S. Indiana during Bird's era, which was anemic at best. It wouldn't have mattered who Springs Valley played...someone mentioned Bedford as a "powerhouse" back then. I taught in the BNL system for a few yrs ('79-82). Wasn't that where the 6'5" Scott Turner played? How many minutes did he get @ ISU during the Bird Era? Weak...

I'm amazed that Springs Valley HS's Jim Jones would abandon his "superstar" during only his *Jr. yr*. in favor of Princeton, IN. Normally, a coach rides on the coat tail of his "star." Didn't Jones aspire to win an IHSAA Championship, which LB would've _guaranteed_ his Sr. yr? Makes one wonder about the timeliness of Jone's "career move." 

In a nutshell, Bird DEVELOPED into one of the greatest collegiate players that the State of IN has ever produced, but his HS dayz simply _fail to validate _a similar dominance against top-flight competition which later became fact.


----------



## dr. bucket

sycamorebacker said:


> I want to clear up a few things.  I don't need to respond to most of your post.
> I am 62.  I have seen thousands of games, not HS games.  And I am including TV games.  I have seen probably 95% of our all-stars play since '65.  And not all of those in person.  I ONLY saw the HS Bird in the all-star game. In the 50 years I've been watching HS and college basketball, I only recall seeing a 30 pt, 20 reb game one time.  I think this is a key point.  That is about what Bird (and Jordan) AVERAGED their senior years.
> You are right.  I don't recall Bird playing a lot in the all-star games.  He got 12pts the first game and that was probably just a few minutes.  But so what?
> 
> You can  bet your life if NC came up with a list, Jordan would be on it.  I think Krider left him off on purpose to prove some kind of point about his basketball "genius."   You can bet that some of those 10 players were not great players their FR/SO years in HS and many were not better than Bird in their SR seasons.  What did Oden and Conley do their FR/SO years?  You surely see that ONE point.
> 
> This is my last post on this.  I think we covered the topic quite thoroughly (like 99% +-2%).



not so fast. 

in their freshman year, oden/conley came within a few missed free throws of upsetting undefeated and eventual state champion pike in the tourney. their sophomore year they won the first of three straight state championships.


----------



## sycamorebacker

dr. bucket said:


> not so fast.
> 
> in their freshman year, oden/conley came within a few missed free throws of upsetting undefeated and eventual state champion pike in the tourney. their sophomore year they won the first of three straight state championships.



Well, you're right.  I shouldn't have used LN or Marion as examples.  They had loaded teams.  There are others on the list that had modest fr/so years.  Even in their Sr years, they were not nearly as good as we remember them if we saw them play in college or pro (example: Conley) . I guess that depends on how you define "dominant."  And some players mature early and don't improve as much as some other players that get a lot better in their last 2-3 years.
But I don't think Krider had defined criteria.  That's ok.  He's entitled to his opinion.  But people like him and all of us for a lot of years would not get to see some boys play unless they got to the state finals.  I just don't like that kind of bias being used in a top 10 list.  If you didn't see someone in HS, you have to make some assumptions, and project backward AFTER you see them play college.  Not always accurate but better than arbitrarily denying someone access to the list.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Gotta Hav said:


> And one final note for anyone else, Birds's 31 ppg and 21 rpg....are great numbers.....IF you're going against Terre Haute and Evansville schools...but who did SV play?  Medora, Paoli, Orleans, Knob Creek?



It took a while for someone to bring that up.  It's correct.  If he had played for LN or Marion, his stats would have looked more like Oden or Edwards, although I would guess he would have averaged more rebounds and assists.  And you can add about 4 ppg for the 3 pt shot.


----------



## Westbadenboy

*OK  One More Post*

Are we arguing about who got the most attention and publicity in high school ?  Which players were the most well known ?  
For God's sake -- that is NOT the point !
Any player at any small southern Indiana high school, no matter how talented, would never qualify.

The summer after Larry's senior year, actually playing with Indiana's best players, against some of the best other players in the state, and against the best of Kentucky's high schoolers  WHEN he was on the floor playing he was the dominant player !  
It doesn't matter how many points he got against Paoli or whether or not the Indianapolis "Star" had ever heard of him (or seen him play !). 
Its not about being known ....... publicity ...... etc................
Its about ability and play on the floor !

:violent:


----------



## dr. bucket

Westbadenboy said:


> Are we arguing about who got the most attention and publicity in high school ?  Which players were the most well known ?
> For God's sake -- that is NOT the point !
> Any player at any small southern Indiana high school, no matter how talented, would never qualify.
> 
> The summer after Larry's senior year, actually playing with Indiana's best players, against some of the best other players in the state, and against the best of Kentucky's high schoolers  WHEN he was on the floor playing he was the dominant player !
> It doesn't matter how many points he got against Paoli or whether or not the Indianapolis "Star" had ever heard of him (or seen him play !).
> Its not about being known ....... publicity ...... etc................
> Its about ability and play on the floor !
> 
> :violent:



if a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound?


----------



## region rat

*Pub*



Westbadenboy said:


> Are we arguing about who got the most attention and publicity in high school ?  Which players were the most well known ?
> For God's sake -- that is NOT the point !
> Any player at any small southern Indiana high school, no matter how talented, would never qualify.
> 
> The summer after Larry's senior year, actually playing with Indiana's best players, against some of the best other players in the state, and against the best of Kentucky's high schoolers  WHEN he was on the floor playing he was the dominant player !
> It doesn't matter how many points he got against Paoli or whether or not the Indianapolis "Star" had ever heard of him (or seen him play !).
> Its not about being known ....... publicity ...... etc................
> Its about ability and play on the floor !
> 
> :violent:



No matter how great one thinks a player is (was) it is the reality to "others" as to how much publicity that player received in the newspapers. Also the Tournament exposure played a significant role in the publicity a player got. In the High School days of "Bird" there was not as much exposure for him.  If you did not see him play how could you rate him accurately.  Being from the "Region" only players from the larger Metropolitan areas such as Lake County, Marion County, Allen County, Vigo County, etc  were considered great.


----------



## sycamorebacker

dr. bucket said:


> if a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound?



I don't know, but you can bet that Bird did not play AAU.  That's where all of the good players get seen.


----------



## dr. bucket

sycamorebacker said:


> I don't know, but you can bet that Bird did not play AAU.  That's where all of the good players get seen.



actually, the recent book about larry and magic "when the game was ours" contains several mentions of larry playing aau. you can look it up if you don't believe me.


----------



## sycamorebacker

dr. bucket said:


> actually, the recent book about larry and magic "when the game was ours" contains several mentions of larry playing aau. you can look it up if you don't believe me.



I'm surprised.  Knight said Bird had nothing.  I took that to mean he was pretty poor.  You can't do much travelling for AAU if you are poor.  It's possible, but I would think from French Lick it would be expensive and/or difficult.  I didn't look anything up.  
Of course, playing AAU locally and nationally are different animals.  What did the book say?


----------



## Callmedoc

Yeah he played AAU ball for hancock construction between his IU time and ISU time according to the all knowing wikipedia.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Yeah he played AAU ball for hancock construction between his IU time and ISU time according to the all knowing wikipedia.



Thanks.  Of course I was talking about 12-17 age groups. 

Someone said they doubted UK and UL recruited him.  If Knight did, they did.  Didn't Knight win the NCAA in '76?  Those coaches know where the players are.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

sycamorebacker said:


> Thanks.  Of course I was talking about 12-17 age groups.
> 
> *Someone said they doubted UK and UL recruited him.*  If Knight did, they did.  Didn't Knight win the NCAA in '76?  Those coaches know where the players are.



Don't people remember the famous "H-O-R-S-E" story with Bird and Denny Crum?  Crum was supposedly at Bird's house (or somewhere in French Lick) and Bird was his usual reticent self.  Crum challenged him to a game of H-O-R-S-E.  If Crum won, Bird had to come visit Louisville, if Bird won, Crum would have to stop recruiting him.  Bird never visited Louisville...


----------



## sycamorebacker

IndyTreeFan said:


> Don't people remember the famous "H-O-R-S-E" story with Bird and Denny Crum?  Crum was supposedly at Bird's house (or somewhere in French Lick) and Bird was his usual reticent self.  Crum challenged him to a game of H-O-R-S-E.  If Crum won, Bird had to come visit Louisville, if Bird won, Crum would have to stop recruiting him.  Bird never visited Louisville...



Is that when Crum gave his dad a tractor?


----------



## BankShot

Westbadenboy said:


> Are we arguing about who got the most attention and publicity in high school ?  Which players were the most well known ?
> 
> Its not about being known ....... publicity ...... etc................
> 
> :violent:




Ya, right...maybe ISU should hire 'Backer to scour the alleys & backyards of French Lick-like areas for the next GREAT HS LB who desires the "hanging low" lifestyle and total secrecy. We could even have a traveling "Howard Hughes All-star Team" that only plays in the backwoods of Hoosier National Forest, thus preserving the sanctity of their hoop existence. Bad idea...the squirrels might complain to the IN DNR and the Audubon Society would cease supporting the BIRDS.


----------



## sycamorebacker

I did "stumble" accross someone one night at the 1966 Greencastle sectional.  His name was Larry Steele (Bainbridge, all-star, UK).  At that time, he was a 6'7" jr, shooting 25 ft set shots.  
I don't know the coach's name, but it was a joy to watch.  It was the best passing team I've ever seen.  They almost completey eliminated the dribble from their game.  Beautiful!

In Kentucky, I think they hand you a roll of bills and send you out the hills to find players.


----------



## Westbadenboy

*Aau ?*

I'm pretty sure there was no AAU ball for high school kids in those days.  And yes Larry played (against some of the best "amatur" players around) AAU ball and from what I heard was a dominat force.  I'm pretty sure another relative of mine from SV -- Kevin Carnes -- also played with Larry.  Kevin was considered one of the best guards around, but never wanted to go on and play college ball.


----------



## Gotta Hav

*Q*



4Q_iu said:


> Just a couple of thoughts...
> 
> *Joe B Hall wanted him *in Lexington, *Denny Crum wanted him *in Louisville, he (Larry) wasn't interested in West Lafayette because Walter Jordan and Wayne Walls were already signed and he knew his position was 'stacked'; State wanted him, the Sphincter of Gloomington wanted him; have to believe *McCutchan wanted him in Evansville*, as did  *Joe Sexton and Jim Holstein **at ISU-Muncie*.



Sniper 4Q_iu where are you? Come out come out, wherever you are.

OLLIE OLLIE OXEN FREE!   Or should that be OLLIE OLLIE SNIPER FREE!

We're coming up real soon here on 24 hours for you to provide your sources on the Joe B Hall, Denny Crum, wanted Bird in a Five-Way with Arad McCuthcan and Pamela Sue Anderson or whatever that "dose of fantasy" is that you came up with.

Sorry about that, aren't you the one who said just a few threads back,* "Opining on some things are great but sometimes ya have to let the facts speak for themselves!" Quote 4Q_iu, April, 2011*

I'm opining for something alright.   If you don't come up with some sources for the Urban Legend stuff that you were OPINING about, I'm throwing in the BULLSHIT CARD on that real soon, and I'm taking your post straight to SNOPES!!!  

The clock is uh tickin'.......tick - tock - tick - tock - tick - tock


----------



## sycamorebacker

Gotta Hav said:


> Sniper 4Q_iu where are you? Come out come out, wherever you are.
> 
> OLLIE OLLIE OXEN FREE!   Or should that be OLLIE OLLIE SNIPER FREE!
> 
> We're coming up real soon here on 24 hours for you to provide your sources on the Joe B Hall, Denny Crum, wanted Bird in a Five-Way with Arad McCuthcan and Pamela Sue Anderson or whatever that "dose of fantasy" is that you came up with.
> 
> Sorry about that, aren't you the one who said just a few threads back,* "Opining on some things are great but sometimes ya have to let the facts speak for themselves!" Quote 4Q_iu, April, 2011*
> 
> I'm opining for something alright.   If you don't come up with some sources for the Urban Legend stuff that you were OPINING about, I'm throwing in the BULLSHIT CARD on that real soon, and I'm taking your post straight to SNOPES!!!
> 
> The clock is uh tickin'.......tick - tock - tick - tock - tick - tock



So you think that Knight wanted him, but nobody else?  That's the stupidest thing you have said.


----------



## BankShot

sycamorebacker said:


> I did "stumble" accross someone one night at the 1966 Greencastle sectional.  His name was Larry Steele (Bainbridge, all-star, UK).  At that time, he was a 6'7" jr, shooting 25 ft set shots.
> I don't know the coach's name, but it was a joy to watch.  It was the best passing team I've ever seen.  They almost completey eliminated the dribble from their game.  Beautiful!
> 
> In Kentucky, I think they hand you a roll of bills and send you out the hills to find players.



Didn't Steele sign w/ Purdue? I was hoping ISU would've signed him, given that they had signed ROD HERVEY from Cloverdale in '65 (a stone's throw away). Was former THS Coach Pat Rady coaching Hervey & IN All-Star Rick Ford during that era?

I recall that Bainbridge squad, as they were trying to steal the newsprint from TH Garfield ...the TH Star had 'em on their radar (Top 15 area teams), as did Sagarin. Just goes to show that even those from the "backwoods" still get their due notice when warranted.

Big question...why was '75 IN All-star Coach Kirby Overman (New Albany) so anti-Bird, especially given the "reports" that LB was ripping a few All-star -ssholes in practice?


----------



## dr. bucket

BankShot said:


> Didn't Steele sign w/ Purdue? I was hoping ISU would've signed him, given that they had signed ROD HERVEY from Cloverdale in '65 (a stone's throw away). Was former THS Coach Pat Rady coaching Hervey & IN All-Star Rick Ford during that era?
> 
> I recall that Bainbridge squad, as they were trying to steal the newsprint from TH Garfield ...the TH Star had 'em on their radar (Top 15 area teams), as did Sagarin. Just goes to show that even those from the "backwoods" still get their due notice when warranted.
> 
> Big question...why was '75 IN All-star Coach Kirby Overman (New Albany) so anti-Bird, especially given the "reports" that LB was ripping a few All-star -ssholes in practice?



rady coached steele


----------



## sycamorebacker

BankShot said:


> Didn't Steele sign w/ Purdue? I was hoping ISU would've signed him, given that they had signed ROD HERVEY from Cloverdale in '65 (a stone's throw away). Was former THS Coach Pat Rady coaching Hervey & IN All-Star Rick Ford during that era?
> 
> I recall that Bainbridge squad, as they were trying to steal the newsprint from TH Garfield ...the TH Star had 'em on their radar (Top 15 area teams), as did Sagarin. Just goes to show that even those from the "backwoods" still get their due notice when warranted.
> 
> Big question...why was '75 IN All-star Coach Kirby Overman (New Albany) so anti-Bird, especially given the "reports" that LB was ripping a few All-star -ssholes in practice?



Don't know if he "signed" with PU.  He played at UK.  Back then they usually played where they signed.

Some all-star coaches don't do well at playing everybody.  Last year's coach liked the smaller, quicker players and didn't play Carroll or Kitchell very much.  I thought height was supposed to be good in basketball.  But he is the Anderson coach and they probably don't utilize post players there.


----------



## SycamoreSage

*Larry was Indiana AAU Player of the Year*

I have not read this entire thread so this nugget may already be in there. It was well known in 1975 - 1980 that Larry played AAU ball after dropping out of IU and was selected the Indiana AAU Player of the Year.

Another part of that story is that the trophy he was given spelled his name "Larry Byrd."

I suspect that this assertion can be documented.


----------



## Westbadenboy

*KU  U of L  etc*

The story that Joe B wanted him at KU is true -- I've heard the story about Crum playing Bird in HORSE but don't know if that one is true.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Westbadenboy said:


> The story that Joe B wanted him at KU is true -- I've heard the story about Crum playing Bird in HORSE but don't know if that one is true.



I think I read the Bird/Crum story in "When March Went Mad" by Seth Davis.  Doesn't make it absolutely true, but it is cited in some printed work...


----------



## 4Q_iu

Gotta Hav said:


> Sniper 4Q_iu where are you? Come out come out, wherever you are.
> 
> OLLIE OLLIE OXEN FREE!   Or should that be OLLIE OLLIE SNIPER FREE!
> 
> We're coming up real soon here on 24 hours for you to provide your sources on the Joe B Hall, Denny Crum, wanted Bird in a Five-Way with Arad McCuthcan and Pamela Sue Anderson or whatever that "dose of fantasy" is that you came up with.
> 
> Sorry about that, aren't you the one who said just a few threads back,* "Opining on some things are great but sometimes ya have to let the facts speak for themselves!" Quote 4Q_iu, April, 2011*
> 
> I'm opining for something alright.   If you don't come up with some sources for the Urban Legend stuff that you were OPINING about, I'm throwing in the BULLSHIT CARD on that real soon, and I'm taking your post straight to SNOPES!!!
> 
> The clock is uh tickin'.......tick - tock - tick - tock - tick - tock



Where to begin... Where, oh, where to begin...

Let's start with the basics:
Larry’s Vitals
1972 – 6’ 1” 131 (So) 4 pts, 4 rbs, 2.5 asts   7-15
1973 – 6’ 3” 150 (Jr) 16 pts,  9.8 rbs, 6.2 asts 19-3; Sectional final loss
1974 – 6’ 6” 160 (Sr) 30.5 pts, 20.6 rbs, 4.3 asts 21-4 Sectional title; Regional final loss
  AP HM
  Indiana All-Star
  Evansville Courier-Press All-Area Player of the Year
  gloomington Herald-Telephone All-Star

According to DRIVE: The Story of my Life – by Larry Bird (with Bob Ryan) 1989 (most of his recruitment is covered on pg 32)
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Drive-Story-Life-Larry-Bird/dp/0553287583[/ame]

http://books.google.com/books?id=pk...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA

~200 colleges contacted Larry (most likely after it 'leaked' that the gloomington sphincter aka GS was interested)

Larry CONFIRMS the following:

Pg. 32  “ I did want to go to Kentucky. Coach Joe B. Hall came to see me play; I didn’t have a good game (he scored 25 pts, collected 15 rbs)”;  he (Hall) ‘said I was too slow and couldn’t get my shot off versus bigger guys…’  But the Bird family did visit Kentucky.

‘ I also visited iu and State; I was planning on a trip to Florida (unclear on if it was the school or just the state.) ‘cause I’d never been there and I was interested in that.’

Purdue recruited me hard, *real hard*, the problem with Purdue, they had Wayne Walls (Jeffersonville) and Walter Jordan (Ft Wayne Northup)…   “… no sense in going up there for a visit.”

“The man who recruited me the hardest was Denny Crum…”    (Bird never seriously considered Louisville)  Crum challenged Bird to a H-O-R-S-E contest (losing in 5-8 shots by Bird; many from 20-25 feet.)  Bird:  ‘Crum still considered himself a pretty good player.’  Crum: (to Gary Holland) ‘Can he really shoot from there?’  Holland: (to Crum) ‘You just saw him…’

So, we now know that the following WANTED/RECRUITED Larry:

gloomington – GS (1 year from NCAA Final Four)
Purdue – Fred Schaus (Off NIT Championship)
STATE – Gordon Stauffer (2 yrs into Div I)
Kentucky – Joe B. Hall (off .500 season)
Louisville – Denny Crum (21-7 and MVC title)


----------



## 4Q_iu

*Continued...*

So if we know this:

gloomington – GS (1 year from NCAA Final Four)
Purdue – Fred Schaus (Off NIT Championship)
STATE – Gordon Stauffer (2 yrs into Div I)
Kentucky – Joe B. Hall (off .500 season)
Louisville – Denny Crum (21-7 and MVC title)

It pretty easy to extrapolate the following schools wanted Larry:

ISU-M – Jim Holstein (coming off 14-12 season; 2 yrs into Div I); Independent

Butler – George Theofanis (coming of 14-12 season); ICC

Evansville – Arad McCutchan (coming off 19-9 season, 2nd round NCAA Div II tourney); ICC

Valparaiso – Bill Purden (coming off 15-11 season);  ICC

UIndy – Angus Nicoson (coming off 15-11 season);  ICC

Vincennes – Allen Bradfield, 2xNJCAA champion; 3xJC CoY; 

IPFW – George Wehrmeister, coming off inaugural MBB season; only 10th year as a ‘true’ college

IUPUI – George Dickison (coming off 11-15 season) NAIA
*NOTE:  Kirby Overman accepted iupui job in 1975.*

St Joe’s – ?? NCAA Div II

Oakland City -- ??  classification?  Steve Land, SVHS Star during Larry’s JR year was a Mighty Oak; Jones and/or Holland was HOPEFUL that at the end of Larry’s JR year, that MAYBE he (Larry) could get a scholie to be a Mighty Oak (Larry’s older brother had to decline HIS OCC scholie in order to support the family)

(MEMORY DISCLAIMER:  I completely forgot about the George Theofanis reign at Butler; the Hinkle was well-known and Sexson was the coach when I was at State)


----------



## 4Q_iu

*But wait, there's MORE!*

From Bird: The Making of an American Sports Legend by Lee Daniel Levine

http://books.google.com/books?id=BW...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA

The following schools were at the Loogootee game LATE in the 1974 season:

iu, State and...

Hanover College – coming off 29-4 season (John Collier, Ind. HoF member, father of Mr. Basketball Steve, NAIA Nat’l CoY); NAIA

Miami (OH) – Darrell Hedric (off .500 season)  Darrell Hedric spent 14 seasons as Miami HC (200+ wins); MAC

Northern Arizona – Herb Gregg (off 6-20 season); maybe John Birkett (Gregg’s successor); BigSky
     So, Northern Arizona is going to travel from Flagstaff TO Loogootee Indiana (that 1,582 miles per MapQuest) ; you can BET that the following schools recruited Larry:

ISU-M
Butler
Evansville
Valparaiso
UIndy (then known as Indiana Central)
Vincennes
IPFW
IUPUI
St Joe’s
Oakland City

Didn't Danny King (Larry's HS AND State teammate play at Vincennes before coming to State?)


----------



## 4Q_iu

Larry’s Vitals
1972 – 6’ 1” 131 (So) 4 pts, 4 rbs, 2.5 asts   7-15

1973 – 6’ 3” 150 (Jr) 16 pts,  9.8 rbs, 6.2 asts 19-3; Sectional final loss

1974 – 6’ 6” 160 (Sr) 30.5 pts, 20.6 rbs, 4.3 asts 21-4 Sectional title; Regional final loss
AP HM
Indiana All-Star
Evansville Courier-Press All-Area Player of the Year
gloomington Herald-Telephone All-Star

This data from from his autobiography and the Levine book; found the W-L record at the current SVHS basketball website: 

http://www.svalley.k12.in.us/ActivitySites/boysVarsityBasketball/records/seasonsandseries.pdf

------------------------------------------

~200 colleges contacted larry during SR year…”  Larry announced his ‘short list’ of gloomington, State and Purdue (mainly to cut down on the recruiting ‘drama’ )

‘On 24 Apr 1974, Larry announced his intent to attend gloomington, (paraphrased.. ‘Explained that while he liked State and Purdue’ “I wanted to go to gloomington, that was always my first choice.”

both points taken from Larry's book with Bob Ryan the the Levine book


----------



## Greene Co.

4Q_iu said:


> From Bird: The Making of an American Sports Legend by Lee Daniel Levine
> 
> http://books.google.com/books?id=BW...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA
> 
> The following schools were at the Loogootee game LATE in the 1974 season:
> 
> iu, State and...
> 
> Hanover College – coming off 29-4 season (John Collier, Ind. HoF member, father of Mr. Basketball Steve, NAIA Nat’l CoY); NAIA
> 
> Miami (OH) – Darrell Hedric (off .500 season)  Darrell Hedric spent 14 seasons as Miami HC (200+ wins); MAC
> 
> Northern Arizona – Herb Gregg (off 6-20 season); maybe John Birkett (Gregg’s successor); BigSky
> So, Northern Arizona is going to travel from Flagstaff TO Loogootee Indiana (that 1,582 miles per MapQuest) ; you can BET that the following schools recruited Larry:
> 
> ISU-M
> Butler
> Evansville
> Valparaiso
> UIndy (then known as Indiana Central)
> Vincennes
> IPFW
> IUPUI
> St Joe’s
> Oakland City
> 
> Didn't Danny King (Larry's HS AND State teammate play at Vincennes before coming to State?)



I believe Danny played at Hannover before state.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Greene Co. said:


> I believe Danny played at Hannover before state.



Thanks -- the State MBB Media Guide lists him as a letterman for the 1976 and 1977 seasons.  The Levine book contains some antedotes from the other State players concerning Danny...  mainly that he and Larry were close, very similar in outlook, perspective, that they were quiet in general but would "bust each others' stones" at the drop of a hat...


----------



## 4Q_iu

Greene Co. said:


> I believe Danny played at Hannover before state.



Thanks -- the State MBB Media Guide lists him as a letterman for the 1976 and 1977 seasons.  The Levine book contains some antedotes from the other State players concerning Danny...  mainly that he and Larry were close, very similar in outlook, perspective, that they were quiet in general but would "bust each others' stones" at the drop of a hat...

At one time, Vincennes had a pretty good media guide (for a JC) but their current one is more ad space than records, seasons, coach stats and letterwinners.


----------



## Gotta Hav

4Q_iu said:


> *Where to begin... Where, oh, where to begin...**Larry CONFIRMS the following:
> 
> Pg. 32  “ I did want to go to Kentucky. Coach Joe B. Hall came to see me play; I didn’t have a good game (he scored 25 pts, collected 15 rbs)”;  he (Hall) ‘said I was too slow and couldn’t get my shot off versus bigger guys…’  *
> 
> You duh man 4Q_iu.
> 
> I wonder who all the "bigger guys' Larry is talking about?   What school had the bigs? Notice that's plural. That would be interesting to see what game Joe B. came to see?
> 
> Was it that taller than life Salem squad where Larry had 38 rebounds
> and 54 points, or was it those giants from Corydon when he got 55 points?
> 
> If Bird is averaging 21 rpg. then how is he having trouble with the bigs?  That doesn't add up?   Here's the schools that Larry played against, his Senior year.
> 
> Which one of these schools had the bigs.   I bet if we spent the time, we could find each one of these yearbooks on-line for sale, and find this BIG team Larry played against that effected his shot.
> 
> Pekin Eastern
> Washingtion
> Orleans
> North Daviess
> Orleans again in the Jasper Holiday Tourney
> Paoli
> Shoals
> Nort Knox
> West Washington
> Corydon
> Paoli
> Loogootee
> Southridge
> Bloomfield
> South Knox
> Barr Reeve
> Mitchell
> Salem
> Brownstown


----------



## 4Q_iu

Gotta Hav said:


> 4Q_iu said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Where to begin... Where, oh, where to begin...**Larry CONFIRMS the following:
> 
> Pg. 32  “ I did want to go to Kentucky. Coach Joe B. Hall came to see me play; I didn’t have a good game (he scored 25 pts, collected 15 rbs)”;  he (Hall) ‘said I was too slow and couldn’t get my shot off versus bigger guys…’  *
> 
> You duh man 4Q_iu.
> 
> I wonder who all the "bigger guys' Larry is talking about?   What school had the bigs? Notice that's plural. That would be interesting to see what game Joe B. came to see?
> 
> Was it that taller than life Salem squad where Larry had 38 rebounds
> and 54 points, or was it those giants from Corydon when he got 55 points?
> 
> If Bird is averaging 21 rpg. then how is he having trouble with the bigs?  That doesn't add up?   Here's the schools that Larry played against, his Senior year.
> 
> Which one of these schools had the bigs.   I bet if we spent the time, we could find each one of these yearbooks on-line for sale, and find this BIG team Larry played against that effected his shot.
> 
> Pekin Eastern
> Washingtion
> Orleans
> North Daviess
> Orleans again in the Jasper Holiday Tourney
> Paoli
> Shoals
> Nort Knox
> West Washington
> Corydon
> Paoli
> Loogootee
> Southridge
> Bloomfield
> South Knox
> Barr Reeve
> Mitchell
> Salem
> Brownstown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I think it's pretty APPARENT that Hall was talking about the 'bigger guys' that Larry would face in the SEC while at UK (Sidenote to Westbadenboy, KU is Kansas, UK is Kentucky)...
> 
> AND when Hall saw Larry, he WAS likely still a shade over 6'6' not the 6' 9" he grew to (officially) or the 6' 10 1/2" that SOME claim Larry truly is...)
> 
> Larry's LIKED opposing players to think he was smaller than he actually was...
> 
> It's kinda like what Tark the Shark said...  "White guys are NEVER as SLOW as they seem."
Click to expand...


----------



## Gotta Hav

sycamorebacker said:


> So you think that Knight wanted him, but nobody else?  That's the stupidest thing you have said.



Look, you don't know me well enough to make that categorization.  I can say dumber stuff than that, any day of the week. Besides, that's your interpretation of what you think I said.   I never said that outright.  So to say that's the stupidest thing I've have said, is just flat out wrong. 

So here it is numbnuts.  

We're looking for evidence and facts. 

Not conjecture, not fantasy, not myths, not urban legends, not fairy tales, not fables, and not sagas.   Got  that?

So if you want to live in some little made up and invented world, that's your choice.   Part of the bigger picture here is to remove the falsehoods.   Like that BIG team that Larry had trouble playing against.   

Have you ever done that backer, make up an excuse for something to cover your shortcomings, or a failure.  You know, a little story here, a little story there....then before you know it SHAZZAM!!!!  Everyone thinks it's fricking for real, even yourself!

So, was Bird really playing against this BIG team when Joe B Hall came, when Bird was averaging 21 gazillion rebounds a game, or not?  So if you want to keep flipping around and saying something assinine like "the stupidest thing I ever said" go right ahead.  

Cause in the end, you aren't being part of the solution to sort this out, you're being part of the problem.

P.S. Sorry for calling you numbnuts, but you earned it.


----------



## Gotta Hav

4Q_iu said:


> Well, I think it's pretty APPARENT that Hall was talking about the 'bigger guys' that Larry would face in the SEC while at UK (Sidenote to Westbadenboy, KU is Kansas, UK is Kentucky)..."



Good point!   I wasn't looking at it from that angle.  

Yep, at 6' 6" and 160 lbs dripping wet, he wouldn't just have problems with the bigs in the SEC.   With that weight, he would have had problems against people his own height. 

Lucky for Larry, and us, that things worked out the way they did. 

He got to basically lay out of organized basketball for two years.  It allowed him to improve his game, grow 3 or 4 more inches, and put on 50+ pounds.

I wonder what the outcome would have been for him if head gone somewhere, and stayed, and didn't have the two full years to mature.   Does he still become Larry Bird the Star, or does he kind of just fade into the crowd?


----------



## sycamorebacker

Gotta Hav said:


> Look, you don't know me well enough to make that categorization.  I can say dumber stuff than that, any day of the week. Besides, that's your interpretation of what you think I said.   I never said that outright.  So to say that's the stupidest thing I've have said, is just flat out wrong.
> 
> So here it is numbnuts.
> 
> We're looking for evidence and facts.
> 
> Not conjecture, not fantasy, not myths, not urban legends, not fairy tales, not fables, and not sagas.   Got  that?
> 
> So if you want to live in some little made up and invented world, that's your choice.   Part of the bigger picture here is to remove the falsehoods.   Like that BIG team that Larry had trouble playing against.
> 
> Have you ever done that backer, make up an excuse for something to cover your shortcomings, or a failure.  You know, a little story here, a little story there....then before you know it SHAZZAM!!!!  Everyone thinks it's fricking for real, even yourself!
> 
> So, was Bird really playing against this BIG team when Joe B Hall came, when Bird was averaging 21 gazillion rebounds a game, or not?  So if you want to keep flipping around and saying something assinine like "the stupidest thing I ever said" go right ahead.
> 
> Cause in the end, you aren't being part of the solution to sort this out, you're being part of the problem.
> 
> P.S. Sorry for calling you numbnuts, but you earned it.



Well, I'm satisfied with the way I've handled this discussion.  At least I didn't resort to name-calling.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Gotta Hav said:


> Good point!   I wasn't looking at it from that angle.
> 
> Yep, at 6' 6" and 160 lbs dripping wet, he wouldn't just have problems with the bigs in the SEC.   With that weight, he would have had problems against people his own height.
> 
> Lucky for Larry, and us, that things worked out the way they did.
> 
> He got to basically lay out of organized basketball for two years.  It allowed him to improve his game, grow 3 or 4 more inches, and put on 50+ pounds.
> 
> I wonder what the outcome would have been for him if head gone somewhere, and stayed, and didn't have the two full years to mature.   Does he still become Larry Bird the Star, or does he kind of just fade into the crowd?



Not sure why Larry (or his coaches) felt he had an 'off game' -- if he's avg'ing 30 pts and 20 rbs for the season and that game he scores 25 and grabs 15.. that's 'off?'

Agree with your points on Larry's year off in French Lick AND his transfer 'penalty' -- that's two seasons of growth/development (Larry also discusses his AAU career while working for the cith of French Lick.)

The other point (that EVERYONE overlooks); iu was an experienced team but MORE IMPORTANTLY, Bob King (and Stan Evans and Bill Hodges) DID NOT force Larry into a system; no square pegs in round holes which was the STANDARD from 1971-2000 in gloomington.    Larry would NOT be the player he was, had he stayed in gloomington.


----------



## Westbadenboy

*Sad Note*

Since several folks posting on this thread seem to be familiar with Springs Valley teams of the 60's and 70's I thought I'd pass this sad note along.
Jay (Beezer) Carnes -- who played with Larry in HS and Kevin and Mike Carnes -- both a little older than Larry, had an older brother -- Charlie Carnes -- who was an outstanding player on the Black Hawk teams of the mid - 60's
Charlie had been very ill for sometime and passed away late last week.  His funeral (high water permitting) will be Tuesday.
Charlie was a high emotion player, with lots of talent for someone his size, intense desire, and a real leader on the floor.  He could have temper at times, but Charlie was a good guy who created alot of memories for Valley fans (and bad ones for the Jasper Wildcats).
Rest in peace Charlie ....................


----------



## Rockman

Gotta Hav said:


> 4Q_iu said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Where to begin... Where, oh, where to begin...**Larry CONFIRMS the following:
> 
> Pg. 32  “ I did want to go to Kentucky. Coach Joe B. Hall came to see me play; I didn’t have a good game (he scored 25 pts, collected 15 rbs)”;  he (Hall) ‘said I was too slow and couldn’t get my shot off versus bigger guys…’  *
> 
> You duh man 4Q_iu.
> 
> I wonder who all the "bigger guys' Larry is talking about?   What school had the bigs? Notice that's plural. That would be interesting to see what game Joe B. came to see?
> 
> Was it that taller than life Salem squad where Larry had 38 rebounds
> and 54 points, or was it those giants from Corydon when he got 55 points?
> 
> If Bird is averaging 21 rpg. then how is he having trouble with the bigs?  That doesn't add up?   Here's the schools that Larry played against, his Senior year.
> 
> Which one of these schools had the bigs.   I bet if we spent the time, we could find each one of these yearbooks on-line for sale, and find this BIG team Larry played against that effected his shot.
> 
> Pekin Eastern
> Washingtion
> Orleans
> North Daviess
> Orleans again in the Jasper Holiday Tourney
> Paoli
> Shoals
> Nort Knox
> West Washington
> Corydon
> Paoli
> Loogootee
> Southridge
> Bloomfield
> South Knox
> Barr Reeve
> Mitchell
> Salem
> Brownstown
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since you need to be informed a bit, and since I graduated in '74--here's a smattering of the bigs Bird played against his senior year.
> 
> Eastern Pekin.....had 6-8 Mark Temple who averaged over 20, went on to be the only guy Bird ever played in both high school and college (Valley member West Texas State)
> 
> Orleans....6-7 Curt Gilstrap, averaged 26 ppg, 20 rpg at Orleans--scholarship to Louisville, played a year or two
> 
> Paoli.....6-7 Tim Eubank, averaged 25 and 15, played football at Purdue
> 
> Bedford....6-6 Jim Pentzer, averaged 17 and 15, can't remember where he played in college, maybe Bellarmine
> 
> Milltown....6-8 David Smith, averaged 22 and 14, played at Louisville
> 
> Jasper.....6-7 Mike Luegers, averaged 21-15, played at Depauw
> 
> Bloomfield.....6-6 Jeff Pittman, averaged 15 and 10, can't remember where he played in college
Click to expand...


----------



## 4Q_iu

Rockman said:


> Gotta Hav said:
> 
> 
> 
> Since you need to be informed a bit, and since I graduated in '74--here's a smattering of the bigs Bird played against his senior year.
> 
> Eastern Pekin.....had 6-8 Mark Temple who averaged over 20, went on to be the only guy Bird ever played in both high school and college (Valley member West Texas State)
> 
> Orleans....6-7 Curt Gilstrap, averaged 26 ppg, 20 rpg at Orleans--scholarship to Louisville, played a year or two
> 
> Paoli.....6-7 Tim Eubank, averaged 25 and 15, played football at Purdue
> 
> Bedford....6-6 Jim Pentzer, averaged 17 and 15, can't remember where he played in college, maybe Bellarmine
> 
> Milltown....6-8 David Smith, averaged 22 and 14, played at Louisville
> 
> Jasper.....6-7 Mike Luegers, averaged 21-15, played at Depauw
> 
> Bloomfield.....6-6 Jeff Pittman, averaged 15 and 10, can't remember where he played in college
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Great stuff!  Anyone know if Hall explained his thinking on 'Bird not being able to get his shot off?'
> 
> Because it was Joe B. Hall who thought Bird couldn't get his shot off; Hall.
> 
> I don't remember anyone on this board making that claim.
Click to expand...


----------

