# [March 6, 2015] Indiana State (15-15) vs Loyola Ramblers (18-12)



## Jason Svoboda

vs. 






*Indiana State Sycamores (15-15) vs. Loyola Ramblers (18-12)
*​*
Scottrade Center - St. Louis, MO​Friday, March 6, 2015​9:30 PM EST Tip​*


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## meistro

Doyle played 9 minutes today.


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## Southgrad07

Expect him to play a full game against us. Not the same Loyola team as in January.. Should still advance to the semis though.. Need our frontcourt to show up and dominate


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## meistro

Southgrad07 said:


> Expect him to play a full game against us. Not the same Loyola team as in January.. Should still advance to the semis though.. Need our frontcourt to show up and dominate



Agree, but I'd rather play them over Ilsu or Evansville. I feel like our defense has been much better lately and it's nice that TJ has gotten more minutes and is gaining confidence. Also good to see Smith playing better.


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## IndyTreeFan

Khristian playing much closer to how we all hoped he would play really changes the dynamic for us.  It will be interesting to see how next Friday plays out.


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## BrokerZ

Southgrad07 said:


> Expect him to play a full game against us. Not the same Loyola team as in January.. Should still advance to the semis though.. Need our frontcourt to show up and dominate



Doyle hasn't played meaningful minutes in months.  Although they are inevitably a better team with him, I don't see him being a difference maker at this point in the season. We took care of business against Loyola both times we play them and I expect we make it a third on Friday. 

The 8:35 PM game means I have a lot of beer drinking time before tipoff...


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## Southgrad07

BrokerZ said:


> Doyle hasn't played meaningful minutes in months.  Although they are inevitably a better team with him, I don't see him being a difference maker at this point in the season. We took care of business against Loyola both times we play them and I expect we make it a third on Friday.
> 
> The 8:35 PM game means I have a lot of beer drinking time before tipoff...



Sure hope your right! He only played 9 minutes...but looked pretty good in the last game. I think we should win, but them getting their by far best player back definitely makes this a harder task than before.


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## BrokerZ

Southgrad07 said:


> Sure hope your right! He only played 9 minutes...but looked pretty good in the last game. I think we should win, but them getting their by far best player back definitely makes this a harder task than before.



You're right, he did look pretty good.  I'm not sure how much that was due to them playing against Missouri State versus Doyle really being back and healthy.


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## Jason Svoboda

BrokerZ said:


> You're right, he did look pretty good.  I'm not sure how much that was due to them playing against Missouri State versus Doyle really being back and healthy.



Well, Missouri State did beat us just a week ago. Seriously though, Doyle is a potential NBA prospect if he continues to develop. I'd feel much more comfortable if he wasn't going to play. If the game is close, I don't feel comfortable with him taking the big shot.


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## BrokerZ

Jason Svoboda said:


> Well, Missouri State did beat us just a week ago. Seriously though, Doyle is a potential NBA prospect if he continues to develop. I'd feel much more comfortable if he wasn't going to play. If the game is close, I don't feel comfortable with him taking the big shot.



Touché on Missouri State. 

Doyle is the best player in the Valley. I really do believe that. I guess I just don't think much of Loyola at this point.  I'd feel better if he wasn't playing, but this is a game we should win. And I expect us to do so.


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## TreeTop

Second year in a row in which we play Loyola on a Friday.  Just an observation.


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## BallyPie

Just an interesting tidbit......this year was the first year since the 1999-2000 team to have not lost consecutive conference games.......and probably before that you'd have to go back to 1979 squad......

I consider this to be quite an accomplishment....it just doesn't happen too often....


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## BlueSycamore

BallyPie said:


> Just an interesting tidbit......this year was the first year since the 1999-2000 team to have not lost consecutive conference games.......and probably before that you'd have to go back to 1979 squad......
> 
> I consider this to be quite an accomplishment....it just doesn't happen too often....



And they still manage to drop games to two of the bottom feeders.  Makes you wonder why concentration on the task at hand is so difficult, especially for 20-22 year olds?


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## Southgrad07

A lot better than back in December when everyone thought we were the bottom feeder lol..


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## BrokerZ

Southgrad07 said:


> A lot better than back in December when everyone thought we were the bottom feeder lol..



It's also a lot better than our typical late-season collapse we've seen with this team over the last three years.  You can't knock them for losing to some bad teams without acknowledging that we have managed to keep it together fairly well, under the circumstances, all season.


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## bent20

BlueSycamore said:


> And they still manage to drop games to two of the bottom feeders.  Makes you wonder why concentration on the task at hand is so difficult, especially for 20-22 year olds?



They were close road losses and you can never count on road wins in the Valley. Most of Drake and Missouri State's home games were close. We had a very good conference season. We finished 11-7 (with four losses to two elite teams), one win off from where we finished a year ago. Here is proof the Valley is never as easy as it seems (our recent records):

2014-2015: 11-7
2013-2014: 12-6
2012-2013: 9-9
2011-2012: 8-10
2010-2011: 12-6
2009-2010: 9-9


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## IndyTreeFan

bent20 said:


> They were close road losses and you can never count on road wins in the Valley. Most of Drake and Missouri State's home games were close. We had a very good conference season. We finished 11-7 (with four losses to two elite teams), one win off from where we finished a year ago. Here is proof the Valley is never as easy as it seems (our recent records):
> 
> 2014-2015: 11-7
> 2013-2014: 12-6
> 2012-2013: 9-9
> 2011-2012: 8-10
> 2010-2011: 12-6
> 2009-2010: 9-9



That's some interesting info there, bent.  So, and I hadn't realized this, *we were 11-3 against everyone not named Wichita and UNI*.  That's pretty damned impressive.  Honestly, as young as we were, to be that dominant against everyone else has to bode well for the future of ISU basketball...


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## meistro

BallyPie said:


> Just an interesting tidbit......this year was the first year since the 1999-2000 team to have not lost consecutive conference games.......and probably before that you'd have to go back to 1979 squad......
> 
> I consider this to be quite an accomplishment....it just doesn't happen too often....


Was a good conference season but we lost at Drake and at UNI back to back.


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## TH_Sycamore12

According to some quick research on Wikipedia ISU is 5-0 against Loyola since they've joined the MVC.


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## treeman

TH_Sycamore12 said:


> According to some quick research on Wikipedia ISU is 5-0 against Loyola since they've joined the MVC.


You needed wikipedia for that? Are you an ofc member? [emoji3] 

Loyola will be improved with doyle but I still see this as a game that we should win. If we can shut down Baker and VanVleet (for the most part) we should be able to handle anything loyola has


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## TH_Sycamore12

treeman said:


> You needed wikipedia for that? Are you an ofc member? [emoji3]




Wasn't sure when Loyola joined, now I know thank you very much. 😉😳


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## BrokerZ

I wondered over to the Loyola message board, mainly because I hadn't visited it before.  Although they don't have a ton of activity going on right now, they do have a game thread with an excellent intro post:

http://www.ramblermania.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1047&sid=ec1661a524c157ccce9a7ba2a8d938f4

Obviously they think they have a good chance in this game with Doyle back in the fold.  I can't fault them for optimism with Doyle being a true difference-making player in the Valley.  I just wonder what kind of restrictions he'll still be under in terms of health?


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## SycamoreStateofMind

BrokerZ said:


> I wondered over to the Loyola message board, mainly because I hadn't visited it before.  Although they don't have a ton of activity going on right now, they do have a game thread with an excellent intro post:
> 
> http://www.ramblermania.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1047&sid=ec1661a524c157ccce9a7ba2a8d938f4
> 
> Obviously they think they have a good chance in this game with Doyle back in the fold.  I can't fault them for optimism with Doyle being a true difference-making player in the Valley.  I just wonder what kind of restrictions he'll still be under in terms of health?



1 game in a 1 and done scenerio, I'd say don't bother speculating on restrictions... Remember a few years back when we speculated if Jake Kelly would play or not, it was 2011 - he played and we won it all. 

As you stated, they should be confidenent. They are playing perhaps the weakest (on paper) #3 seed this tournament has ever seen. On the flip side, another clean slate and a lot left to prove. 

It will come down to the last posession or two I do imagine. We have to take care of the ball, make free throws and rebound - do those things and we give ourselves a chance to win any ball game I do believe.

And for those (many of you) that talk about a late season collapse in past years, that is fan speak more than anything else. Ya all buy into that shit way too much. You got to much that comes into play - the suggestion that we collapsed is utterly stupid honestly. So the same team that had a late season collapse makes it to the MVC Championship game in St. Louis?!?! Like I said, fan speak...


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## IndyTreeFan

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> 1 game in a 1 and done scenerio, I'd say don't bother speculating on restrictions... Remember a few years back when we speculated if Jake Kelly would play or not, it was 2011 - he played and we won it all.
> 
> As you stated, they should be confidenent. They are playing perhaps the weakest (on paper) #3 seed this tournament has ever seen. On the flip side, another clean slate and a lot left to prove.
> 
> It will come down to the last posession or two I do imagine. We have to take care of the ball, make free throws and rebound - do those things and we give ourselves a chance to win any ball game I do believe.
> 
> And for those (many of you) that talk about a late season collapse in past years, that is fan speak more than anything else. Ya all buy into that shit way too much. You got to much that comes into play - the suggestion that we collapsed is utterly stupid honestly. So the same team that had a late season collapse makes it to the MVC Championship game in St. Louis?!?! Like I said, fan speak...



No, the "late season collapse" talk isn't fan speak, and it isn't stupid.  When a team plays its way into the conversation of an at-large NCAA bid by beating numerous teams from the P5 conferences, and then commences losing to MVC bottom dwellers throughout February, _when winning is most important_, it is most definitely a late season collapse.  You may want to sugar coat it, and that's fine, since this is, first and foremost, an opinion board, but it does happen, and it did happen to us a couple of times in the last few years.  It happens all over sports.  It sure isn't something that's limited to ISU athletics.  But don't insult people on this board when they complain of teams that fail to live up the the hype that _they themselves created_, by beating really high quality teams, and then lose their way out of the tournament.

Did we have a late season collapse in 2011?  I'd say no, but we sure did two years ago, when we entered February firmly in the at large talk due to our exceedingly strong OOC performance.  Then, we lost our way out of the tournament.  Collapse?  Hell yeah...

Did we collapse this year.  Absolutely not.  This was a season when we've most decidedly exceeded expectations, at least in the MVC.  

How the hell did this topic end up in the Loyola game thread?  :huh:


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## SycamoreStateofMind

IndyTreeFan said:


> No, the "late season collapse" talk isn't fan speak, and it isn't stupid.  When a team plays its way into the conversation of an at-large NCAA bid by beating numerous teams from the P5 conferences, and then commences losing to MVC bottom dwellers throughout February, _when winning is most important_, it is most definitely a late season collapse.  You may want to sugar coat it, and that's fine, since this is, first and foremost, an opinion board, but it does happen, and it did happen to us a couple of times in the last few years.  It happens all over sports.  It sure isn't something that's limited to ISU athletics.  But don't insult people on this board when they complain of teams that fail to live up the the hype that _they themselves created_, by beating really high quality teams, and then lose their way out of the tournament.
> 
> Did we have a late season collapse in 2011?  I'd say no, but we sure did two years ago, when we entered February firmly in the at large talk due to our exceedingly strong OOC performance.  Then, we lost our way out of the tournament.  Collapse?  Hell yeah...
> 
> Did we collapse this year.  Absolutely not.  This was a season when we've most decidedly exceeded expectations, at least in the MVC.
> 
> How the hell did this topic end up in the Loyola game thread?  :huh:



People have been mentioning "late season collapses" in the last several game threads including this one - to answer the "huh" part of your question. I didn't exactly bring it up, but I did elect to comment on it.

Well I made an additional post and it has for some reason vanished so I will post again. 

Perhaps I should have taken expectations into consideration before I posted. As it worked out, I did not - I just posted an opinion based on fact.

Last 12 games over the last 5 years. 

2014-2015: 6-6 (Yet to be determined)
2013-2014: 7-5 (MVC Title Game)
2012-2013: 5-7 (One and Done)
2011-2012: 6-6 (One and Done)
2010-2011: 6-6 (MVC Title)

Yes, 2012-2013 was a dissapointing close to the season - no doubt, especially with a win that season at Wichita and a drubbing of Creighton and to close 3-5 yeah that is pretty dissapointing. Not sure I catagorize it as an all out collapse though. 

But for conversation sake, lets just go ahead and call it what it was. That team collapsed, fine they had some internal issues and a team with a lot of talent shit the bed. Lets not let one teams poor finish be grouped in with the others as collapses because that is factually flawed in my opinion.


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## BrokerZ

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> As you stated, they should be confidenent. They are playing perhaps the weakest (on paper) #3 seed this tournament has ever seen.



I don't know about that.  This league has been top heavy for a few years.  Do you think last year's 16-14 (10-8 in MVC) was really any better than we are this year?  The same UNI team that got beat by a 13-18 SIU team in the quarterfinals?  Look back at the last few years - the Valley has consistently had two really good teams and everybody else.


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## BrokerZ

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> 1 game in a 1 and done scenerio, I'd say don't bother speculating on restrictions... Remember a few years back when we speculated if Jake Kelly would play or not, it was 2011 - he played and we won it all.



I'm speculating on restrictions because there's not much else to discuss about with this game, as evidence by the lack of conversation so far.  Doyle and how much he plays is by far and away the storyline to follow.  He only played 9-10 minutes in their Missouri State game because he was only physically cleared to play 10 minutes.  

If Doyle only plays 10 minutes, we win by double-digits.  If he goes all Jake Kelly ala 2011, we have a different ballgame on our hands.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

BrokerZ said:


> I'm speculating on restrictions because there's not much else to discuss about with this game, as evidence by the lack of conversation so far.  Doyle and how much he plays is by far and away the storyline to follow.  He only played 9-10 minutes in their Missouri State game because he was only physically cleared to play 10 minutes.
> 
> If Doyle only plays 10 minutes, we win by double-digits.  If he goes all Jake Kelly ala 2011, we have a different ballgame on our hands.



The situation is not really the same, Jake Kelly wasn't even supposed to play in St. Louis that year. He wasn't a huge factor in the outcomes of those games: 0 pts and 0 mins. in the opener vs. Evansville, 0 pts in 9 mins. in 2nd round vs. WSU and 5 pts in 16 mins. vs the Bears in the Championship. 

It was simply a point of reference, in a one and done scenerio you really can't specualte on any limitations a player will or won't have. That is the only point I was trying to make. You asked the question and so I answered - not asking you or anyone else to agree. 

A story line? For sure, no dobt!

As for us being the weakest 3 seed in some time. I am proud of what this team has accomplished, however I think our success is more a product (and I said this a month ago) of a fast start in Valley play and underperforming teams of UE and IlState. Those teams didn't live up to expectations, because of that we earned the 3. That doesn't make us a strong 3 seed though.


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## BrokerZ

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> It was simply a point of reference, in a one and done scenerio you really can't specualte on any limitations a player will or won't have. That is the only point I was trying to make. You asked the question and so I answered - not asking you or anyone else to agree.
> 
> A story line? For sure, no dobt!



Saying the question isn't worth answering is not really an answer to my question, but fine...I get your point.


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## Southgrad07

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> People have been mentioning "late season collapses" in the last several game threads including this one - to answer the "huh" part of your question. I didn't exactly bring it up, but I did elect to comment on it.
> 
> Well I made an additional post and it has for some reason vanished so I will post again.
> 
> Perhaps I should have taken expectations into consideration before I posted. As it worked out, I did not - I just posted an opinion based on fact.
> 
> Last 12 games over the last 5 years.
> 
> 2014-2015: 6-6 (Yet to be determined)
> 2013-2014: 7-5 (MVC Title Game)
> 2012-2013: 5-7 (One and Done)
> 2011-2012: 6-6 (One and Done)
> 2010-2011: 6-6 (MVC Title)
> 
> Yes, 2012-2013 was a dissapointing close to the season - no doubt, especially with a win that season at Wichita and a drubbing of Creighton and to close 3-5 yeah that is pretty dissapointing. Not sure I catagorize it as an all out collapse though.
> 
> But for conversation sake, lets just go ahead and call it what it was. That team collapsed, fine they had some internal issues and a team with a lot of talent shit the bed. Lets not let one teams poor finish be grouped in with the others as collapses because that is factually flawed in my opinion.





The one and done years you have on there we actually won one a game before losing. 13' we beat Evansville thanks to Browns block in the quarters and in the year before that we beat a sorry SIU team in a Thursday night play in game before being dismantled by Wichita the following day. Just thought Id bring that up because Lansing has never lost his first game in the Lou. Here's hoping that continues!

 I get your point though and I agree with it other than the 12-13 season. I would put that team in the collapse category. I'd say last years bunch and 11-12 team did enough in non-conference to be a tourney team, but never did anything during the course of the valley season to help their resume, therefore I cant say we collapsed down the stretch. Teams that hold it together for the first 20-25 games and then throw it all away the last 8-10 are the teams I'd look to put in that category.


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## Bluethunder

The only restrictions that will be put on Doyle in this game will be due to his conditioning.  Sitting out for so long has certainly had an adverse effect on his stamina (to what extent we don't know).  He may need more frequent breaks and get winded easier/sooner, but otherwise I don't see Loyola limiting his time on the court.


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## Sycamore Proud

Doyle or no Doyle, cop lase or no collapse, it is tough to beat a team 3 times in one season--any team.  A win over Loyola will not be easily done.  That also means our Sycamores will no be an easy out for the 1 and or 3 seeds in this tournament.  I'm not saying Loyola will win--I'm just saying it wont be easy for us.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

BrokerZ said:


> Saying the question isn't worth answering is not really an answer to my question, but fine...I get your point.



I'm really not trying to be controversial with you at all. Its all good man - I am just saying as my answer that I don't think he is going to be limited in any way in a one and done situation, that is my point. He might be a bit rusty but hard to say in what way.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Southgrad07 said:


> The one and done years you have on there we actually won one a game before losing. 13' we beat Evansville thanks to Browns block in the quarters and in the year before that we beat a sorry SIU team in a Thursday night play in game before being dismantled by Wichita the following day. Just thought Id bring that up because Lansing has never lost his first game in the Lou. Here's hoping that continues!
> 
> I get your point though and I agree with it other than the 12-13 season. I would put that team in the collapse category. I'd say last years bunch and 11-12 team did enough in non-conference to be a tourney team, but never did anything during the course of the valley season to help their resume, therefore I cant say we collapsed down the stretch. Teams that hold it together for the first 20-25 games and then throw it all away the last 8-10 are the teams I'd look to put in that category.



Yes, by one and done I was trying to say 1 win and then a loss. Thank you.


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## IndyTreeFan

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> I'm really not trying to be controversial with you at all. Its all good man - I am just saying as my answer that I don't think he is going to be limited in any way in a one and done situation, that is my point.



You're probably right, he's got all spring/summer/most of fall to recover.  And you know he'll be in some kind of surgery next week anyway, barring a postseason tournament.

He goes to the repair shop anyway, I'm sure he's chomping at the bit to play.


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## BrokerZ

IndyTreeFan said:


> You're probably right, he's got all spring/summer/most of fall to recover.  And you know he'll be in some kind of surgery next week anyway, barring a postseason tournament.
> 
> He goes to the repair shop anyway, I'm sure he's chomping at the bit to play.



Yeah - I agree with that.  I believe he's still playing with a torn labrum that was supposed to keep him out all year.  The guy is tough and is playing while being held together with paper clips and chewing gum.  He still may be the best player on the floor on Friday despite all of this, too.


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## IndyTreeFan

Doyle is huge in this game, but let's not forget that, if the current trend continues, we have a player on the floor that we haven't had all year, either - a "not in a funk" Khristian Smith.  I think that changes things as much as Doyle does.


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## BrokerZ

IndyTreeFan said:


> Doyle is huge in this game, but let's not forget that, if the current trend continues, we have a player on the floor that we haven't had all year, either - a "not in a funk" Khristian Smith.  I think that changes things as much as Doyle does.



You and I are on the same page.  I was talking with my buddy last night about KSmith.  If we shock the Valley and make a run at Sunday, KSmith is most likely on the all-tournament team.  His emergence is that important.  If he continues his scoring over the last two games, we're in for a show!


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## krwilson2

I am wondering how the Ramblers will approach the shifted, "hi-low," attack the Trees have employed lately.  The dump in from the wing instead of the top of the key seems to have opened up a few driving lanes / back door cuts.  

Anyone else sensing a saggy zone if our early shooting is off?


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## BrokerZ

krwilson2 said:


> I am wondering how the Ramblers will approach the shifted, "hi-low," attack the Trees have employed lately.  The dump in from the wing instead of the top of the key seems to have opened up a few driving lanes / back door cuts.
> 
> Anyone else sensing a saggy zone if our early shooting is off?



I think we'll see a zone.  But, we did shoot the lights out from three against them both times we played.  They might be weary of our shooting by playing zone.  Loyola doesn't want to get into a free throw shooting battle with us either by allowing us driving lanes, so I think they pick their battle and let us take the outside shots on a neutral floor.


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## BallyPie

krwilson2 said:


> I am wondering how the Ramblers will approach the shifted, "hi-low," attack the Trees have employed lately.  The dump in from the wing instead of the top of the key seems to have opened up a few driving lanes / back door cuts.
> 
> Anyone else sensing a saggy zone if our early shooting is off?



That's what I'd do if I were coaching against us......I'd play the same Defense Missouri State played against us in Springfield.......hoping we have an off day from the perimeter and we turn the ball over trying to penetrate the zone......


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## nwi stater

Just wondering, if we wear those throwback white uni's with the Indian head on it, will someone get their righteous panties in a wad?????

What a load of sh t..........


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Sycamore Proud said:


> Doyle or no Doyle, cop lase or no collapse, it is tough to beat a team 3 times in one season--any team.  A win over Loyola will not be easily done.  That also means our Sycamores will no be an easy out for the 1 and or 3 seeds in this tournament.  I'm not saying Loyola will win--I'm just saying it wont be easy for us.



I think this is also "fan speak"... Dating back to 2000 (15 years) we have only played a team we have beaten twice previously in one season on two different occasions. In 2013-2014 we beat Loyola for the 3rd time and in 2003-2004 we lost to Evansville who we had previously beat twice. 

So I decided to pick another random Valley team and dig a little deeper. Same time period and scenario for Missouri State. Watch this:

2002-2003: Beat the Aces 3 times and then lost to SIU who beat them 3 times 
2004-2005: Lost to Creighton who they had beat twice previously
2006-2007: Beat Wichita 3 times and then lost to Creighton who beat them 3 times
2007-2008: Lost to Illinois State 3 times 
2009-2010: Beat the Aces 3 times and then lost to Wichita who beat them 3 tiems 
2011-2012: Lost to the Aces 3 times 
2012-2013: Lost to Wichita 3 times
2013-2014: Lost to Wichita 3 times 

For argument sake you can go ahead and throw Wichita out since they were so good the last two years... Naaa hell with that, since you wanted to suggest that beating a team 3 times is tough so that improves our chances let's go ahead and keep that in the conversation. It is just not an accurate statement. In 11 instances for Mo State over the last 15 years they have played a team that they have beat twice previously or they play a team who beat them twice previously and once ONLY once did the team that had not won a game in that series won. Teams get beat 2 times in conference play for one of two reasons, either one they are not a very good team or two the other team is pretty good. 

My point in all of this is simple, if Indiana State gets beat on Friday (Lord don't let that happen) let's not use beating a team 3 times in a season as a scapegoat because it is really just a bunch of talk. I am not going to go through a bunch of Valley teams and do the same exercise because I know what it is going to show. I picked another middle of the road Valley program that is not a lot different than us. You can pick a program that is historically decent and they are going to win most of those 3 game series outright.

What I honestly think, if you are the underdog you are looking for any reason as a fan to think we have  a chance in hell of winning that game. So it sounds really good to say, "well they beat us twice already and it is hard to beat a team 3 times". I think if you are the favorite you are partly being respectful to the game, the opposing team and you are kinda making an excuse in advance in the event that you do lose by saying, "well we already beat them twice and it is hard to beat a team 3 times". 

It aint hard to do, better teams win basketball games. Profound I know.


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## BrokerZ

Sycamore Proud said:


> Doyle or no Doyle, cop lase or no collapse, it is tough to beat a team 3 times in one season--any team.  A win over Loyola will not be easily done.  That also means our Sycamores will no be an easy out for the 1 and or 3 seeds in this tournament.  I'm not saying Loyola will win--I'm just saying it wont be easy for us.



It's also hard to beat a team 6 times in a row, but we're going to do it anyway on Friday.  Loyola is 0-fer against us in their time in the Valley.


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## Westbadenboy

I think the point many are trying to make is this -- if you look at this as a "three game series" -- when a pretty good team goes up against a team that is just ok, its still often hard for there to be a "sweep" of the series.  The better team will win about 2/3 of the time, but not always.  So if the better team has already won two, its not outrageous to suggest the weaker team might rise up and win the third.  In the middle of a long baseball season -- no big deal -- a team that wins 2 out of 3 is doing pretty well.  When it comes to a conference tournament that "third game" is much more meaningful -- lose one and you're done.
The other factor many folks look at is motivation -- the team that has won the first games might be a bit overconfident, overlook, and look ahead spelling disaster.  Plus the team that has lost the first two may have learned something from its losses, in addition to having a high level of motivation.
Stats may show no real reason for the old phrase, but that does not change the correctness of it.  Unless a team is careful and aware, it is "hard to beat a team three times in a season" ------ I hope ISU is careful and aware Friday evening.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Westbadenboy said:


> I think the point many are trying to make is this -- if you look at this as a "three game series" -- when a pretty good team goes up against a team that is just ok, its still often hard for there to be a "sweep" of the series.  The better team will win about 2/3 of the time, but not always.  So if the better team has already won two, its not outrageous to suggest the weaker team might rise up and win the third.  In the middle of a long baseball season -- no big deal -- a team that wins 2 out of 3 is doing pretty well.  When it comes to a conference tournament that "third game" is much more meaningful -- lose one and you're done.
> The other factor many folks look at is motivation -- the team that has won the first games might be a bit overconfident, overlook, and look ahead spelling disaster.  Plus the team that has lost the first two may have learned something from its losses, in addition to having a high level of motivation.
> Stats may show no real reason for the old phrase, but that does not change the correctness of it.  Unless a team is careful and aware, it is "hard to beat a team three times in a season" ------ I hope ISU is careful and aware Friday evening.



I really appreciate you taking the time to simply that for me, that was way more than I could have expected from a complete stranger no less. Sincerely, thank you.


----------



## Southgrad07

Well after reading  some others boards around the valley it seems as if Loyola is the favorite to win Friday night. I cant tell if its due to them not thinking highly of our team or if it  has more to do with the return of Doyle. One thing I know its NOT is the whole ....."its hard to beat a team three times". 

All that im certain of is that im pumped for Friday night and im packing gear for 3 days of Sycamore hoops just in case we make a run!


----------



## sycamorebacker

Westbadenboy said:


> Stats may show no real reason for the old phrase, but that does not change the correctness of it.  Unless a team is careful and aware, it is "hard to beat a team three times in a season" ------ I hope ISU is careful and aware Friday evening.



I liked SSOM's post.  I'm a strong believer in stats.  They are proof if you have enough observations , but anything else is mere chatter.


----------



## Westbadenboy

Look the point is simple -- sure the better team that has won the first two is likely to win the 3rd matchup -- no argument there.  But that superior team must be careful not to be overconfident and to realize that other team (unless its totally outmatched) is "lying (laying ? ? ?)in wait" over there plotting for the upset.  I suspect Loyola fully expects as they practice today that they can beat us with a third try.  
Stats show Loyola won't win -- as ISU has found out several times this year that does not mean anything once the ball goes up.
Let's hope ISU gets off to a great start and never gives those guys any reason to think they can stay with us.


----------



## skdent1414

Geez guys I feel like I am sitting back in philosophy 101 again. Hey, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around......


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

skdent1414 said:


> Geez guys I feel like I am sitting back in philosophy 101 again. Hey, if a tree falls in the woods and no one is around......



Dude... Not all of us are as gifted as you and could become a dentist. Spare me


----------



## the johnner

Just drove past Loyola's campus in Rogers Park. Karma is flowing our way; juju's good!! And it's all coming up sycamore blue-and-white! We win Friday!! Go Sycamores!!!


----------



## treeman

Ive been reading some tweets hinting at a student bus going to the lou. Can someone either confirm or deny this as it would be awesome to get a good student crowd there. And I would bet that every student that goes would seriously consider going every year after.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Looks like game is preempted on Fox Sports Midwest in HD for the Pacers/Bulls post game show and of course it is blacked out on ESPN3. 

Looks like it should be on SD though on one of the Fox channels on Comcast.


----------



## sycamorebacker

I try to follow our team stats, but I just looked them and was surprised that KS ended up 3rd and Tre ended up 5th in PPG.


----------



## krwilson2

Jason Svoboda said:


> Looks like game is preempted on Fox Sports Midwest in HD for the Pacers/Bulls post game show and of course it is blacked out on ESPN3.
> 
> Looks like it should be on SD though on one of the Fox channels on Comcast.



The Missouri Valley might have one of the worst conference media contracts ever.


----------



## GuardShock

krwilson2 said:


> The Missouri Valley might have one of the worst conference media contracts ever.



I have the game starting on Dish channel 412-08 at 9:30. I'll be watching as soon as I finish moving out my roommates stuff.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

krwilson2 said:


> The Missouri Valley might have one of the worst conference media contracts ever.



might have???


----------



## WOZ

krwilson2 said:


> The Missouri Valley might have one of the worst conference media contracts ever.



It would be nice if the MVC could negotiate something with WGN (Chicago). With a Chicago team (Loyola) in the conference along with Illinois State, Bradley, and Southern Illinois it might be a good selling point with all those alumni (viewers) in the greater Chicago metro area.  I wouldn't think WGN is too happy with their deal with DePaul.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

krwilson2 said:


> The Missouri Valley might have one of the worst conference media contracts ever.





WOZ said:


> It would be nice if the MVC could negotiate something with WGN (Chicago). With a Chicago team (Loyola) in the conference along with Illinois State, Bradley, and Southern Illinois it might be a good selling point with all those alumni (viewers) in the greater Chicago metro area.  I wouldn't think WGN is too happy with their deal with DePaul.



I think a lot of the problem is we have 3 layers to our media deal -- Fox Sports, ESPN and CBS. IMO, they need to unify it. Go to ESPN and try to get them to take the entire thing. Right now all of ESPN's channels are running crap programming.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Yes, the other day I caught the end of a Pac 10 horse whispering match.


----------



## Jason Svoboda




----------



## Jason Svoboda

Doyle is available to play but isn't starting per Adams.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Under 16 Media Timeout.

7-4 Loyola.

We're getting good shots just not finishing. Brenton and Devonte need to finish those shots at the rim.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Under 12 Media Timeout.

9-7 Loyola.

Can't hit shit, Captain!

3/12 from the floor, 0-6 from 3.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Timeout Sycamores.

11-0 Loyola run. 18-7 Loyola. 

9:06 left in the half. We've got nothing for them right now.


----------



## Chief_Quabachi

Some sloppy passing


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Under 8 Media Timeout. 

Loyola 20, ISU 9.


----------



## TH_Sycamore12

Hello off season!


----------



## Chief_Quabachi

so far this is pathetic..............


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Timeout ISU. Nooooo mahbles. 

Loyola 30, Sycamores 13.


----------



## ISUCC

boy, they're right, we're getting taken to the woodshed, we look totally uninterested here tonight, like Golden said, we look like a team wanting the season to end.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Under 4 Media Timeout. 

Loyola 32, Sycamores 16.


----------



## ISUCC

I don't think we're out of it yet, but if we don't close this gap before halftime we're thru


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Loyola shooting 53.8%, we're shooting 26.3%.

We're 0-9 from 8. I figured we'd struggle on this rim but not this bad.


----------



## sycamore tuff

Did any of you buy all session passes?


----------



## sycamore tuff

Jason Svoboda said:


> Loyola shooting 53.8%, we're shooting 26.3%.
> 
> We're 0-9 from 8. I figured we'd struggle on this rim but not this bad.



How far out do you have to shoot it to get 8 points?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

sycamore tuff said:


> How far out do you have to shoot it to get 8 points?



The new Ballpark District. But you have to bank it.


----------



## SycamoreinTexas

LET'S GO SYCAMORES! I'M NOT READY FOR THE SEASON TO BE OVER! NUT UP AND GET THE FUCKING JOB DONE!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Ramblers 38, Sycamores 20.

Complete ass kicking by Loyola.


----------



## skdent1414

In retrospect what a good decision saying no to the ISU phone salesman selling Arch madness tickets.


----------



## ISUCC

we are just getting WORKED by Loyola, kudos to them for wanting this way more than we do at this point. They are playing very well. Sad to see the season end this way, but I think we'll be better next season.

we'll need a whole lot of those 8 point shots in the 2nd half! LOL


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Loyola is 16 of 27 (59.3%), 3-5 (60%) from 3 and 3-6 (50%) from the line. They have 19 rebounds (3 offensive), 10 assists, 5 steals, 2 blocks and 8 turnovers.

Sycamores are 6 of 24 (25%), 0-11 (0%) from 3 and 8-12 (66.7%) from the line. They have 14 rebounds (4 offensive), 2 assists, 3 steals, 1 blocks and 8 turnovers.


----------



## Southgrad07

Embarrassing effort from our guys...


----------



## Westbadenboy

What was it a wise old man once said .............."its tough to beat a team three times in one season"

Hummmmmmmmmmmm ...............? ? ? ? ?


----------



## BrokerZ

I'm at the game and it's even worse.  Kitch is absolutely getting worked over.  Horrible, horrible effort by everyone.  0-11 from three, I think.


----------



## SycamoreinTexas

CIT AND NIT SURE HAS FUCKING PAID OFF THE LAST 3 FUCKING YEARS!!!!!!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreinTexas said:


> CIT AND NIT SURE HAS FUCKING PAID OFF THE LAST 3 FUCKING YEARS!!!!!!



Still want Lansing fired too, right?


----------



## Westbadenboy

*Previous post*

I refer you to a previous post of mine about motivation, overconfidence, looking ahead, etc.  etc.

Stats showing the team that won the first two games also winning the third game mean nothing if the victor in the first two comes into the third game playing with the concentration, effort, intensity, and disengagement ISU has shown in the first half.  I just watched replays from the first half on TV ---- four ISU guys under the Loyola basket, one Loyola player ------- who gets the rebound and puts it in .............
enough said !


----------



## cubbypike13

I get it if you are playing your tail off and things just aren't falling but damn...we are just pathetic tonight.


----------



## WOZ

BrokerZ said:


> I'm at the game and it's even worse.  Kitch is absolutely getting worked over.  Horrible, horrible effort by everyone.  0-11 from three, I think.



Take Kitchell out of this damn game now!  It's embarrassing!


----------



## TH_Sycamore12

Thank you! Thank you!


----------



## BrokerZ

I swear if I see Jake Kitchell back in this game I'm leaving the Scottrade Center.  He has played the worse game I've ever see him play tonight.


----------



## Chief_Quabachi

embarrassing


----------



## Jason Svoboda

0 of 17 from 3. 

This is beyond shots not falling. This is what our non-conference shooting looked like on steroids.


----------



## cubbypike13

Make it stop...

You think if one of our players starts crying they may let up a little?


----------



## Chief_Quabachi

LMAO.............good one.


cubbypike13 said:


> Make it stop...
> 
> You think if one of our players starts crying they may let up a little?


----------



## Greene Co.

This looks like the team that played Ill. earlier this year.  Shell shocked .  Some one needs to take Lansing a beer.


----------



## bent20

We're down 40 points with 10 to play. This doesn't look like anything we've seen this year or in recent years. It looks like absolute defeat, like why the hell did we bother.


----------



## TH_Sycamore12

Who said the Sycamores are making a run at Sunday?


----------



## Greene Co.

Hoping we make it to 50.   This is just an ass kicking.


----------



## bent20

They scored more points in the first half than we scored through 33 minutes.


----------



## Greene Co.

Did they say which Sunday?


----------



## BrokerZ

Anybody that tries to pile it on here can go eff themselves.  Stop with the "I told you so" bullshit.  Nobody saw this coming. Nobody.


----------



## SycamoreinTexas

Jason Svoboda said:


> Still want Lansing fired too, right?



Deserves a raise! Did great things with this years team!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BrokerZ said:


> Anybody that tries to pile it on here can go eff themselves.  Stop with the "I told you so" bullshit.  Nobody saw this coming. Nobody.



Exactly.

It didn't matter who was playing who. If you come out and shoot 23% and go 0 fer from 3 you're going to get beaten up pretty good. We just happened to compound poor shooting with other miscues and it was super amplified. Shit happens.


----------



## Greene Co.

Some times you just get it handed to you.  There is nothing a coach can do to stop this when you shoot like we  did tonight.  Well sounds like we will be a part of arch madness history.  Largest margin of defeat.  Proud to be a tree but it ain't always easy.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

A lot of tough decisions upcoming by the staff if they want to get back on track IMO.

The guys coming back better work their asses off this off season on their shots. Also will be interested to see what Van Scyoc will bring to the table. Hopefully he can bring some toughness to this squad.


----------



## Greene Co.

Jason Svoboda said:


> A lot of tough decisions upcoming by the staff if they want to get back on track IMO.
> 
> The guys coming back better work their asses off this off season on their shots. Also will be interested to see what Van Scyoc will bring to the table. Hopefully he can bring some toughness to this squad.


This will leave a pretty bad taste.  It should be posted in every locker as a reminder for the summer work outs.  We are going to need a lot of new toughness.


----------



## bent20

The third place finish and post-season honors for our guys were really uplifting and a great way to finish, but tonight really tarnished all of that. A loss by 10-15 wouldn't even be that disheartening, but this was an absolute disaster. Give Loyola some credit for sure, but the result is not at all acceptable for a third place finish.


----------



## Greene Co.

bent20 said:


> The third place finish and post-season honors for our guys were really uplifting and a great way to finish, but tonight really tarnished all of that. A loss by 10-15 wouldn't even be that disheartening, but this was an absolute disaster. Give Loyola some credit for sure, but the result is not at all acceptable for a third place finish.



Yep


----------



## Jason Svoboda

*Loyola Downs Indiana State In MVC Tournament Quarterfinals*






For the first time in five seasons, the Sycamores will exit the Missouri Valley Conference Tournament without a victory after falling 81-53 to Loyola in the quarterfinals late Friday night inside the Scottrade Center.

Read more at GoSycamores...


----------



## TreeTop

Greene Co. said:


> Yep



Yep, squared.


----------



## treeman

This was one of those loses that was so bad that teams usually completely forget about it and rebound nicely. Unfortuntely it happened on what probably is the last game of the year for the team. 

And that was about the most positive thing I could think of to say after that....


----------



## TreeTop

Greene Co. said:


> It should be posted in every locker as a reminder for the summer work outs.  We are going to need a lot of new toughness.



Yes.

81-53

Just those numbers should be posted.  Nothing else.  81-53


----------



## sycamore tuff

Well, looking for a silver lining in the thunderhead, the boys saved me a lot of money this weekend.  On to baseball!


----------



## Coach

"I couldn't believe what the score was when I looked up a couple times," Lansing admitted. "I think we've got to look in the mirror. Some of our character was exposed and it doesn't sit real well with me." ISU is currently 15-16. Lansing expressed an interest in playing in the postseason before the tournament began, but the only route to a postseason bid is the College Basketball Invitational, which is a pay-for-play tournament that will take teams under .500.

DON'T DO IT - TAKE YOUR ASS KICKING HOME FOR THE SUMMER. NO MORE CHANCES THIS TIME AROUND FOR AN UNDER .500 COLLECTION OF PLAYERS.! IF THE UNIVERSITY ALLOWS AND PAYS IT WOULD AFFECT ATHLETIC DEPT. DONATIONS FOR THE NEXT FEW YEARS AND RIGHT WHEN YOU THINK THAT IT PROBABLY COULD NEVER GET WORSE IT WOULD.

FROM A SENIOR:  "We were careless with the ball and we didn't do what we wanted to do on the offensive end. Then on the defensive end, we didn't fight hard enough and didn't take anything away from them like we wanted to," ISU forward Justin Gant said.  DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

FROM A 5TH YEAR SENIOR:  "It's very disappointing. They came out and they punched us right in the face and played harder than we did. Just straight up, they wanted it more, and it was clear in the way that we played," ISU center Jake Kitchell said.  DOUBLE DUHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

HANG UP THE SNEAKERS BOYS. THE PARTY'S OVER!


----------



## IndyTreeFan

I'm thankful I went to New York instead of the 'Lou. I'm not usually of this mind, but I hope this was the last game. A performance like last night's doesn't deserve an encore.


----------



## krwilson2

I didn't stay up to watch the game and had intended on watching the replay this morning.  When I saw the score, I thought it was a misprint.  

DAAAMMNN.

Tough way to end the season and the careers of Kitch and Gant.

I don't really have words for the disappointment...

Now it is time to root for ILST to pull two upsets so the MoVal gets three teams into the dance.


----------



## Bluethunder

krwilson2 said:


> I didn't stay up to watch the game and had intended on watching the replay this morning.  When I saw the score, I thought it was a misprint.



Same here.  Long week at work this week and went to bed early so I didn't watch any of it.  Planned on watching it this morning, but now I guess I will just take the DVR out back and burn it.

Congrats to the Ramblers, just make sure you play as well today as you did last night.  There is nothing I hate more than to lose to a team that does everything right against us and then goes out in the next game and can't make a shot.


----------



## Bluethunder

I haven't read through the entire thread, but am really surprised Coach hasn't shown up to gloat.  He is probably the only one happy this morning.

Update - I stand corrected, he has posted his thoughts in a seperate thread about the game.  You have to hand it to the prick, he can manage to stay away for weeks when we are winning but show up in less than 24 hours after a loss.  What a true fan.


----------



## Gotta Hav

My observations from the game....our seats were pretty much mid-court, rim level height...even though we committed our season average of unforced errors.....here is what set this record-setting performance by Loyola was about.

Loyola's defense was so swarming, it looked they had 10 players on the court.

Loyola wasn't just a half-a-step faster than us on offense, they were one or two steps faster than us.

Loyola proved again that size doesn't matter, what does matter is the Magician behind the wand, or in this case the coach performing miracles with what he does have.   There was barely a Loyola player whose head came to either Kitchell's or Gant's shoulders.

They returned Milton Doyle at the most critical time of the season.....genius!

Now I'm sure Loyola will lay an egg against UNI, but if they can play again like they did against us....they will give UNI a run for their money.

In conclusion, we shouldn't beat up our coaches or players up to much......we just happened to play a team that didn't just have a run here, and a run there....they had a run for the whole frickin' game.   When does that ever happen?  Almost NEVER.   

Heck Loyola could have probably been Kentucky last night, and I'm serious.

So on to next season...if there is one take away that the players should take away from this game, play every minute and every game like it's your last. Loyola did, and it earned them a huge win.


----------



## WOZ

krwilson2 said:


> I didn't stay up to watch the game and had intended on watching the replay this morning.  When I saw the score, I thought it was a misprint.
> 
> DAAAMMNN.
> 
> Tough way to end the season and the careers of Kitch and Gant.
> 
> I don't really have words for the disappointment...
> 
> Now it is time to root for ILST to pull two upsets so the MoVal gets three teams into the dance.


Glad the Kitchell - Gant experiment is over.  Despite their all academic honors, we don't need 6'8" or 6'10" stiffs that are soft and can't jump to save their lives.   I'll take a 6'7"  forward ala Alex Gilbert any day.


----------



## hans1950

Nothing much more I can add that hasn't been said already.This team won more games than it probably should have but played back to it's lowest form in the end.Good luck to Kitch and Gant in their future endeavors,they both played as well as they could whether we liked it or not.To the guys coming back,you know how hard it is to win in the MVC,you've got work to do so do it.Looking forward to next season with optimism.


----------



## TH_Sycamore12

WOZ said:


> Glad the Kitchell - Gant experiment is over.  Despite their all academic honors, we don't need 6'8" or 6'10" stiffs that are soft and can't jump to save their lives.   I'll take a 6'7"  forward ala Alex Gilbert any day.




Agree 100% Next year's team will be automatically better without these two. Addition by subtraction.


----------



## The Chop

Don't bet on being better without those two. Btw, exactly how many Alex Gilberts have we had over the years??? Not too many, if any, over the years


----------



## krwilson2

TH_Sycamore12 said:


> Agree 100% Next year's team will be automatically better without these two. Addition by subtraction.



I am not sure there are any 6'8" guys walking in next year who will be a reasonable threat from 15 feet.  

They might not have been the strongest guys with the ball, but suffice it to say that they played because the guys behind them were not as capable.  Gant was close to 1k points and played two years out of position.


----------



## treeman

Heres the thing with Gant, he isnt a creator, he just isnt. He is a guy that can play low on occasion and pops out when a teammate drives to the hoop. With Odum at the point it played perfectly with his skill set. This year he was looked to more as a creator instead of his 1 dribble shoot skill set. 

But all this is pretty irrelevant at this point. Im happy that they were Sycamores and you can bet your bottom dollar that they are going to represent our university positively for the rest of their lives. Unlike some other former athletes that have come to light.


----------



## WOZ

My contention is that the MVC talent/athletic level has been improving at the center and forward positions and we are falling behind.  I further believe that we recruited Kitchell because he was 6'10".  It couldn't possibly be because he was a legitimate Division I athlete.  We need to become more athletic.  That's exactly what Loyola has done without becoming taller.


----------



## The Chop

All well and good, but now explain to  us how we go about recruiting such athletes. We've had athletic kids whose skills were very limited and didn't contribute much to the program. Prior to Doyle coming back from injury, Loyola wasn't very good. They played out their butts last night, beat us in every facet of the game


----------



## WOZ

The Chop said:


> All well and good, but now explain to  us how we go about recruiting such athletes. We've had athletic kids whose skills were very limited and didn't contribute much to the program. Prior to Doyle coming back from injury, Loyola wasn't very good. They played out their butts last night, beat us in every facet of the game



First of all,  I'm not any kind of authority on how to recruit better players.  That's what we're paying our coaching staff to figure out.  But, take a look at the Loyola web site on the Links above; you'll see a photo of two much shorter Ramblers combining to block out a much taller Gant. 
If we were in need of a big man i.e. 6'9" or taller, and there was a high school kid available to match that requirement, but lacked the athleticism or ability, should we offer him a scholarship anyway?   I believe that's what they did with Kitchell.
Yes, we've had athletic players in the past.  Menser, Renn, Carter and Nate Green just to name a few.   None of them were tall and we won with them.  And they all had grit!  With the exception of Odum, I believe we've gotten away from signing tough kids who can have success in the MVC.


----------



## meistro

WOZ said:


> My contention is that the MVC talent/athletic level has been improving at the center and forward positions and we are falling behind.  I further believe that we recruited Kitchell because he was 6'10".  It couldn't possibly be because he was a legitimate Division I athlete.  We need to become more athletic.  That's exactly what Loyola has done without becoming taller.



I agree we have to become more athletic but don't agree with other teams improving at the center position. Did you watch that Bradley/Drake game the other night? I'd take Gant and Kitchell over their big guys any day. That being said, Loyola really exposed our big guys lack of athleticism last night. I thought we should have went small earlier.


----------



## Mitchell

Coach said:


> Lansing admitted. "I think we've got to look in the mirror. Some of our character was exposed and it doesn't sit real well with me."



Blah...blah...blah...


----------



## sycamorebacker

TH_Sycamore12 said:


> Agree 100% Next year's team will be automatically better without these two. Addition by subtraction.



This is ABSOLUTELY true.  This is not personal, but there is NO WAY we will not be better on the entire front line next year.


----------



## ISU_TREE_FAN

I think we might be better playing four guards, maybe even five and change our play style? We don't get enough consistently from our big guys to replace them with other big guys. Don't need and have never needed anyone over 6'7 or 6'8 at most on the front line to consistently compete in the Valley. We won't get any 6'9 or above player that is not a project and our big men projects don't seem to ever project enough.


----------



## meistro

sycamorebacker said:


> This is ABSOLUTELY true.  This is not personal, but there is NO WAY we will not be better on the entire front line next year.



Be careful what you wish for. People also thought we wouldn't miss JO. I agree we need to go small with just one big but I think it's a little short sighted to think that we will automatically be better without Justin and Jake. They had their weak points but we also won games because of them over the last 4 years.


----------



## sycamorebacker

meistro said:


> Be careful what you wish for. People also thought we wouldn't miss JO. I agree we need to go small with just one big but I think it's a little short sighted to think that we will automatically be better without Justin and Jake. They had their weak points but we also won games because of them over the last 4 years.



Oh, I guarantee it.


----------



## sycamorebacker

ISU_TREE_FAN said:


> I think we might be better playing four guards, maybe even five and change our play style? We don't get enough consistently from our big guys to replace them with other big guys. Don't need and have never needed anyone over 6'7 or 6'8 at most on the front line to consistently compete in the Valley. We won't get any 6'9 or above player that is not a project and our big men projects don't seem to ever project enough.



That is correct.  We have some shooters and some mid-size forwards.  We need one good big and a backup.  I'm confident we will have all we need.  With KS, AE, and 2 guys sitting out this year, we will have solid play at the 3-4, and should  be more mobile and have a lot of scoring ability.  Remember, our weaknesses were rebounding and defense this year.  Our more experienced guards can improve the defense and ANYBODY can rebound better than we did this year on the front line.


----------



## meistro

We also need a quality point guard who is the leader of this team and until we get that we will be similar to what we were this year.


----------



## sycamorebacker

meistro said:


> We also need a quality point guard who is the leader of this team and until we get that we will be similar to what we were this year.



No.  We have our guards.  No way we'll be similar with 3 guards returning that were all-conference and a year older.  Check the assists that Bennett and Brown got.  Scott will get better at passing.  
We have all we need for guards.

If we would happen to add to vg guard, who's minutes are you going to cut?  An all-conference guard, a FOY or an all-conference bench guard?

I don't quite understand our fans' opinions of our guards.  I guess the conference voters like them better than we do.  Do you think we ended in 3rd because of all of KS's points or JG's rebounds or JK's athletic ability?


----------



## meistro

sycamorebacker said:


> No.  We have our guards.  No way we'll be similar with 3 guards returning that were all-conference and a year older.  Check the assists that Bennett and Brown got.  Scott will get better at passing.
> We have all we need for guards.



We may have plenty of guards but not a quality point guard unless Paige can be that guy. I'm talking about a PG that can take us to the next level and Devonte and Bennet are not those guys and Scott is a shooting guard. You can't go to the next level with point guards that routinely dribble the ball off their feet unguarded and panic with the type of pressure that Wichita throws at you or for that matter what Loyola threw at us Friday night.


----------



## meistro

sycamorebacker said:


> No.  We have our guards.  No way we'll be similar with 3 guards returning that were all-conference and a year older.  Check the assists that Bennett and Brown got.  Scott will get better at passing.
> We have all we need for guards.
> 
> If we would happen to add to vg guard, who's minutes are you going to cut?  An all-conference guard, a FOY or an all-conference bench guard?
> 
> I don't quite understand our fans' opinions of our guards.  I guess the conference voters like them better than we do.  Do you think we ended in 3rd because of all of KS's points or JG's rebounds or JK's athletic ability?



I'm not saying they aren't good and valuable players but again to go to the next level we need a quality point guard who takes care of the ball and values each possession. If you don't recognize that after watching this team for the past 31 games nothing I can say will change your mind.


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## meistro

sycamorebacker said:


> No.  We have our guards.  No way we'll be similar with 3 guards returning that were all-conference and a year older.  Check the assists that Bennett and Brown got.  Scott will get better at passing.
> We have all we need for guards.
> 
> If we would happen to add to vg guard, who's minutes are you going to cut?  An all-conference guard, a FOY or an all-conference bench guard?
> 
> I don't quite understand our fans' opinions of our guards.  I guess the conference voters like them better than we do.  Do you think we ended in 3rd because of all of KS's points or JG's rebounds or JK's athletic ability?



And we ended up 3rd because after the top two teams in this conference (and now add IL St.) the conference was very weak.


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## sycamorebacker

meistro said:


> We may have plenty of guards but not a quality point guard unless Paige can be that guy. I'm talking about a PG that can take us to the next level and Devonte and Bennet are not those guys and Scott is a shooting guard. You can't go to the next level with point guards that routinely dribble the ball off their feet unguarded and panic with the type of pressure that Wichita throws at you or for that matter what Loyola threw at us Friday night.



You don't have to be a PG to lower TO's.  Two less TO's per game would have put us at 2nd in the conference.  That is easily attainable with our current guards; and we were in the middle of the conference, or average, in A/TO ratio.  
I can promise you that if our 3 guards return, they will get 95% of the minutes, and I'm looking forward to that.  

I guess I differ with you. We have 3 all-conference guards. To get to the next level, we have to get better contributions from our forwards and center.  We MUST rebound better and take away our opponents' offensive rebounds/2nd shots.

I would be much happier to get better inside play, offensively and in rebounding, and better defense.


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## Bluethunder

meistro said:


> Be careful what you wish for. People also thought we wouldn't miss JO. I agree we need to go small with just one big but I think it's a little short sighted to think that we will automatically be better without Justin and Jake. They had their weak points but we also won games because of them over the last 4 years.



We will miss their defense. There were quite a few games that Kitch (despite his offensive limitations) played a very solid defensive game for us.


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## Bluethunder

sycamorebacker said:


> We MUST rebound better and take away our opponents' offensive rebounds/2nd shots.



This x1000.  We won despite our poor rebounding and I can think of at least three games we probably would have won had we rebounded better. 

Bennett can be the point guard, kid improved tremendously as the season went on.  One offseason of hard work on his part and the chance to continue meshing with his teammates and I will have no concerns handing him the keys.

Starting lineup next year,.....Bennett, Brown, Scott, Smith, Bell.


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## sycamorebacker

meistro said:


> And we ended up 3rd because after the top two teams in this conference (and now add IL St.) the conference was very weak.



Well, whatever.  I guess we could have played without our 3 all-conference players and still ended up third.


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## sycamorebacker

Bluethunder said:


> This x1000.  We won despite our poor rebounding and I can think of at least three games we probably would have won had we rebounded better.
> 
> Bennett can be the point guard, kid improved tremendously as the season went on.  One offseason of hard work on his part and the chance to continue meshing with his teammates and I will have no concerns handing him the keys.
> 
> Starting lineup next year,.....Bennett, Brown, Scott, Smith, Bell.



Haven't some on here said that MVS is the "best" player on the team; and is reputed to be one of our best shooters? 
Not sure how that figures into the starting lineup.  I sure hop KS stays, works hard, and gets it going.  
I'm ALWAYS an optimistic fan, but I feel good about Burnett and AE, also.  The center spot is a question, but some of JK's limitations might be fixed.  
I think our 3-4 spots will be much stronger.  Of course, adding 3 yrs experience to our 3 guards will help a lot.


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## Bluethunder

sycamorebacker said:


> Haven't some on here said that MVS is the "best" player on the team; and is reputed to be one of our best shooters?
> Not sure how that figures into the starting lineup.  I sure hop KS stays, works hard, and gets it going.
> I'm ALWAYS an optimistic fan, but I feel good about Burnett and AE, also.  The center spot is a question, but some of JK's limitations might be fixed.
> I think our 3-4 spots will be much stronger.  Of course, adding 3 yrs experience to our 3 guards will help a lot.



It wouldn't surprise me if MVS started next year, but until I actually see him play, still going what I posted.  

Starter or not, I do expect good things from him though.


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## the johnner

Always the internal optimist?!? I should be pistol whipped! Sorry I think I jinxed the boys.


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## sycamorebacker

Shame on you.


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## Bluethunder

the johnner said:


> Always the internal optimist?!? I should be pistol whipped! Sorry I think I jinxed the boys.



Never apologize for being an optimist, especially around here.  Lord knows we have our fill of pessimists.


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