# Time to Think About an Indoor Track...



## SycamoreStateofMind

Many facility's on Indiana State's campus have received updates in the last several months (without naming any names) however one program always seems to get left out, it leaves me wondering why that is? Could it be because we are too successful? Maybe...

If you consider the re-surfacing of the track last spring an update you are sadly mistaken... That was simply a patch job, or putting a band aid on a gun shot wound. You know the sad thing is, the track program not only needs an outdoor track facility, they need an indoor facility even worse. 

*The Plan*

Indiana State University has architectural drawings in their hand to build a new indoor track complex. It would cost the university an estimated $10 to $20 million to build the facility depending on how big of a splash we can afford to make. The facility will expand to the north and ultimately demolish the current tennis courts. Seeing as how we don't have a tennis program now, this shouldn't be to big of an issue. This 300 meter indoor track will have the ability to bring (football, baseball and womens soccer) to the infield of the track to conduct practices. The facility would have the ability to install a turf like surface in the infield. This would be of great benefit to many programs. I urge the university as a whole give this project serious consideration. 

*Why it Makes Sense*

Indiana State University has played host to the Cross Country Nationals a total of 9 times. When Indiana State places a bid to the NCAA to host nationals the NCAA rarely even has another bid submitted, why? Because the folks at ISU put on the event better than any other program in the country, we have the best facility and we have the best people! The sky is the limit for the people involved with the Track and XC programs, they don't see barriers like other programs at Indiana State. They think they can accomplish anything and everything! Their record on the track and the course speaks for its self. They complete winning season after winning season and compete for conference championships year in and year out! 

1. Recruiting - Why even show recruits the indoor track we have now? You constantly have to defend your situation to the athlete by saying, "it's not much but we make do". That is anything but, "more from day 1". A new facility would help with recruiting of athletes. 

2. Training - A new facility will decrease the number of injuries and allow are athletes to train at a higher level than they already do. Trust me the current facility has a negative impact on training, again we make do with what we have. This facility will also help football, soccer and baseball programs train in the winter. Can you think of a better situation? I sure can't. 

3. Hosting Events - This facility would give Indiana State coaches and volunteers alike the opportunity to host a world class college invitational every year. If you build it they will come, teams all across the country pay a great deal of money to compete on over sized tracks like those at Iowa State and Notre Dame just to name a few. You say that the Track team can't generate revenues, build this facility and tell me that they don't generate revenue. The only reason they currently have a hard time doing this is because they have been put in such a bind. 

Indiana State University Administration I urge you to take this project into serious consideration. It's simply the right thing to do and the right time to do it! Please stop pouring money into unsuccessful programs that are barley above water...


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## 4Q_iu

*Now that the Student Rec Center is built...*

and the students no longer use the HPER spaces on the northside; 
how will this new facility help the FBall, BBall and Soccer train in the winter?

They have the HPER?!  That was the one of the main reasons behind the new Student Rec Center, no?

Can you break down the number of Track (In/Out) Championships; team, relays and individuals vs. Tennis?

Neither are revenue sports; tennis has to be cheaper, just based on the number of scholies - no?!


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Ha... Look now, don't go this route with me today... I will respond to you when I feel that I can respond without making an idiot out of myself. After last nights game I don't think I have the ability to do that today. Because if we realllllllyyyyyy wanna start talking about "cutting" the right programs then I can come up with a pretty darn good opinion about that right now. Because something tells me that's what you were getting at? 

You can't compare the two, Indiana State Cross Country and Track teams have brought home more titles "for all intents and purposes" than any program in the history of Indiana State. Granted with 3 seasons we have more opportunies. However are winning % as far as championships is far greater than any other program. I don't really have the time to look up the numbers right now, maybe later this weekend. I am sure it's something profound.


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## 4Q_iu

*Apples, Oranges and Fruit*

Agree that it's hard to compare them but at the end of the day, where in the world is State going to come up w/ the $$ for the facility?  And where is the true need?
Sure it sux not hosting home indoor track meets; but how many kids take scholies elsewhere?  Where does the team train now?

If we build this facility; are we going to blossom into a Tenn or Ark; LSU in track?
Just curious.

if there's a big donor out there willing to drop the $10-12M on this fac, great, take the money and build it.

However, I'd prefer an alumnus drop that kind of $$ on more academic scholies, help offset the cost of the CoB rehab.

What are the plans for the 'footprint' under the Statesman Towers, once they're razed?


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## Jason Svoboda

I'm all for it! I definitely think the track and field program deserves much better facilities and it can only help lure even better athletes into the program making it even more successful. That said, who is going ot pay for it?

Considering the rumor (if you want to call it that) is that the baseball project is completely getting redesigned to cut costs on that, you've got to think there wouldn't be any funding available for a new indoor track facility, no? I'd imagine for something to get done, there would need to be major fundraising done to secure a large chunk of the project costs. Does State have the track and athletics alumni base to raise 25-50% of the total bill?


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Let me say this much - I think John Gartland and John McNichols have the connections to raise 25% of the bill, I think 50% is a lot steep. To expect them to raise 5 to 10 million on their own is a huge number. I honestly can't speak about how the funding of this facility will work or if it ever would work? 

You have to understand that this program is already an "elite" program in the MVC, without question. We are looked at nationally as an "elite" program because of our Cross Country facility and are outstanding coaching staff . I mean these guys are some of the best coaches in the nation and they have accolades to prove it... They don't need me to get on sycamorerunner.com and make a case for them. 

The team currently trains in the hyper building... That track is for recreation use only, it was not built to hold Division 1 track practice... I bet 50% of injuries occur indoors because of how difficult of surface that is to practice on. 

1. It's not an actual track and field surface.

2. The throwers have know room to throw, people have been hit by implements 

3. The corners are way to tight

4. The building is way to small to conduct a full division 1 practice 

5. if you are springing 60 meters you have to put on the breaks hard to slow down before you get to the ball. To give you a clear understanding, Insane Bolt would not be able to slow down in time...

Shall I continue? The outdoor track is a similar situation...


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## 4Q_iu

*The Capitol Campaign...*

Any rumor that this campaign will dedicate a portion of the donations to the Athletic side of State?

Hearing the 'public phase' begins in October, 2009.

They may be raising athletic moneys during the 'private' phase.

Will be interesting to see how the Foundaton does; crappy time to kick off a campaign -- should have started one during 1990s...

Think this will be the TRUE measure of Sycamore Loyalty.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Oh it can be done... Union Hospital raised some 7.5 million$ with it's capital campaign during this same rough period of time. No doubt in my mind it can be done. They seem to also have some pretty creative ways of going about it. However I am not sure how all of this effects my cause... Where does my piece of the puzzle fit in? Oh and for the record I have already started the process of giving to this university... I am on board !


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## Jason Svoboda

Morgan said:


> Oh it can be done... Union Hospital raised some 7.5 million$ with it's capital campaign during this same rough period of time. No doubt in my mind it can be done. They seem to also have some pretty creative ways of going about it. However I am not sure how all of this effects my cause... Where does my piece of the puzzle fit in? Oh and for the record I have already started the process of giving to this university... I am on board !



Did you ask your donations to be earmarked for the track program or more specifically, new track facilities? Can you even do that?


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## 4Q_iu

*You can designate...*

to an academic program; I do it annually.  Specific athletic program?  Thinking not.
http://www.indstatefoundation.org/GivingChoosing.aspx
Though I'm sure, you could endow a Track or XCty schoie; the Morgan Family, etc

Can someone explain the difference between the Sycamore Varsity Club and the Sycamores Athletics Scholarship Fund?  Two groups w/ two goals?  Same group w/ different names/'doors?'


As to 'naming rights' to one of the Colleges (Arts/Science, Ed., Bus.,, etc) I was told
~10 yrs ago that is would basically be $12M but that was then...  
I believe that a cool $15M would get your name on a college; definitely a department.

Not seeing anything on the Foundation website for a 'ISU Building Fund...'
Bottom line; the more money -- the more specific you can be!

It's the Golden Rule -- If I HAVE the GOLD, I get to MAKE the rules!


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Jason Svoboda said:


> Did you ask your donations to be earmarked for the track program or more specifically, new track facilities? Can you even do that?



I accidently edited your post the first time instead of quoting it... lol I am a new at this! 

Well you can actually direct them to a certain program so yes and no. Let me qualify that by saying, I don't think the administration has any serious considerations of building said facility at this point. I don't really have the option to tell them to put this toward building a new facility... I mean the gift was so substantial they might want to re-name the school. 

The Morgan School of Higher Education 

Acronym: MSHE


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## Sackalot

Would renovating the HYPER and expanding the northern wall out, lets say 50 feet, meet the needs.?  I would have to think that resurfacing the current arena would be pretty easy to do.  I know they never did before because regular "students" used it, but with the Rec Center that shouldn't be a probelm anymore.  And expanding the buidling would not be a huge structural issue (I wouldn't think).  And though many faculty would have a problem with it, they could easily remove the racquet ball courts and expand to the South as well.  Just my thoughts...not saying we don't need a new facility but, I would think there are most cost effective ways to renovate what is currently in place.  

Regardless, this all boils down to $$.  If an alumnus comes along and has a vision or idea of what he/she wants and has the money to do it, it will happen.  Look at the Michael Simmons Recreation Center over on the Northeast side of Campus.  Michael Simmons started the Trike race at ISU, he decided that the Trike race needed a track to race on and a building with stands, so he donated the $$ and now there is a track with stands, restrooms, etc and he also just bought 30 trike bikes for any team of riders that wanted to compete could use.  Michael Simmons is a great alumnus who donated ALOT of money...IMO it is the same situation with an indoor track.  

I do agree the surface (more like hard cardboard) is terrible and hard as a rock.  And I agree ISU probably needs a new facility, but without the $$ it is unlikely.  What is more likely, is to resurface the arena and possibly to expand it.  For example, if you took out the racquet ball courts that would have to provide enough space for shot, not hammer but definatly shot...just my thoughts.  Can't answer the corner issues, but if the side of the building was expanded...I would think the geometry of the track could change and make the corners less tight.  You will never solve the problem of possibly running into the walls...that is the case all the time.  Everytime I watch track and field on tv, like the national indoor track and field meets, the sprinters are running and then crash into a wall that is padded...


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Let me say this, the new design actually calls for an addition onto the wing of the hyper building that you are talking about... Essentially the building from the outside will look the same just "longer/extended" to the west, the red brick and everything would be the same... So what you are suggesting is partially what has been proposed... 

When I say partially I mean that they intend to keep some of the current hyper building for baseball, football and womens soccer in the winter. They will also keep the basketball courts in place. 

I totally understand that you all are saying financially. I am simply asking for 3 things, 1 for everyone to indeed recognize that their is a need. 2 that the track program is for all intensive purposes the best program at Indiana State past and present. Finally the University to commit some funding and some support of this project. Because here is the deal, these drawings have been in their hand for several months now and by several months I mean since May and nothing has been done yet. They know this project is out their, now it's time they make a commitment to it. 

It's simply UNACCEPTABLE to have the best Cross Country course in the nation and have the worst tracks in the nation. It makes no sense, that's like Rose Hulman being named the top engineering school in the country but not offering a common program like civil engineering. Make a commitment to excellence, that is all I am asking. Then if you want the program to come up with 25% of the bill then they have something to shoot for. Trust me that kind of thing can be done. Their are people working up their at that school that have the knowledge to make something like this happen, trust me they exist!


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## 4Q_iu

*Does State own the Gibson XCty Course...*

thinking State had 'squatter rights' to it but didn't know if they owned it outright.

As to RHIT -- why anyone would shell out those $$ for any Eng degree from rhit is beyond me but I aren't an engineer.

Now maybe if the kid couldn;t get into Purdue...


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## SycamoreStateofMind

4Q_iu said:


> I aren't an engineer.



LOL! Obviously! 

You are right that facility is not owned by Indiana State. I think it is owned by the Wabash Valley Sports Center. 

However it nationally it is recognized as Indiana State's Cross Country course... But you are correct in the fact that ISU does not own the facility. Rose Hulman has access to the facility this year for the D3 National Championships. The course will also play host to the Indiana State High School Championships, as well as the NCAA D1 Pre Nationals event and the Nike Cross Country Regional event! 

Should be an historic season for high school and college cross country in Terre Haute!


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## 4Q_iu

*Have heard nothing but the finest...*

things about the Gibson course and know the NCAA LOVES the job that State does
with the National Meet.

Love that the NCAA moved to Indy; what a coup!  And the fact that Indy has/had some OUTSTANDING venues for a multitude of NCAA events was the icing.

Now, if we can only get the NCAA to stop acting to schizophrenic.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Very true and it must irk the folks in Indy that no one in the country can do a better job of hosting the meet than little old Terre Haute, for gosh sakes we have "old stop lights" and the city "smells" oh and in the words of Bob Kraviz at the Indy Star you can't even "accrue Marriott points" in Terre Haute! 

I mean can you imagine for a moment how the running capital of the world Eugne, Oregon must feel that little old Terre Haute has the ability to put on a Cross Country meet better than them and don't tell me that they can't host it because they are not centrally located. That perhaps is a reason but when you have Nike in your back pocket as Oregon does, I contest that they can do about whatever they want. 

Read deeper into that statement and you will understand that maybe Oregon does not want to host Nationals, maybe they see it fit right here in little old Terre Haute, Indiana. Maybe Oregon and the folks at Nike like it here, their home away from home!


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## Sycamores23

.


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## Jason Svoboda

In addition to the known money games, I've also heard it is a good possibility we will be picking up Purdue and IU in the near future. As long as the school can still bring in those big checks, you're correct that football will not be going anywhere.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Sycamores23 said:


> About the bids to host the NCAA Nationals - there are SEVERAL other bids competing against us and unfortunately we will probably get it taken away within the next 3-5 years. There was a meeting the other day and the coaches were not very optimistic about it being here constantly year after year despite the success it has received. Other schools are really pushing to host this event to bring money into their programs and a lot of schools are taking to it being hosted at another school because running at a new course is something everyone wants. I hope we get to host it every year for the rest of eternity lol but the time is coming when it won't be hosted by us any longer.
> 
> Also, although I would indeed build new facilities for the track teams if the money was there because they do deserve it, it's not feasible right now. I hate to say this but the school, community, and fans are more interested in sports like football (despite their record) and the basketball and baseball teams.  The reason these sports are getting money put into them is because they are more likely to be able to put money back into the program. Baseball had people donate - because people would rather donate to that sport, that's a big part of why they get a new stadium. Football, despite their losing record, is in existence and will be for at least a few more years because of games like Louisville and Penn State that bring in thousands of dollars for not only the football team, but other teams as well.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I love the track coaches and I think the teams are successful year after year - but college athletics is a business and track does not bring in anything (besides PreNats and Nats) financially. The level of interest in the track teams by the surrounding community is extremely low - there is not much support, not because they are not good but just because it's the nature of the sport. And until that changes, I'm afraid not much will change in terms of facilities.




Well for about 2 or 3 years schools were not even gathering the resources to put bids against us because they didn't stand a chance. I am well aware of the fact that we might loose it for a couple of years, I happen to pretty close to the situation myself. I guess I would consider myself pretty well educated and leave it at that. Just because another venue get's to host it one year does not mean much of anything... It's a good thing to have it move around from time to time!


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## 4Q_iu

*I'd put money on...*

the Haute hosting 1 year out of 3 or 5; with it ALWAYS being the secondary / back-up site as needed.

that's pretty much the scenario that Indy/Conseco have w/ the NCAA and the Final Four(s)

that being said -- it's great for the Haute.

As to football; $$ games; in a perfect world, we'd only do a $$$ game in odd or even numbered years, because the team will be in the black (as well as the MBB and WBB) being in the black.

So by 2013, State football never loses to a NAIA, Div II or Div III team, they're playing a B10 team every other year and in the year that they're not, they're playing a MAC or Sunbelt (Maybe a C-USA school) and going minimum of .500 in the MVFC.
Too ambitious?!  Optimistic???


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## SycamoreStateofMind

4Q_iu said:


> the Haute hosting 1 year out of 3 or 5; with it ALWAYS being the secondary / back-up site as needed.
> 
> that's pretty much the scenario that Indy/Conseco have w/ the NCAA and the Final Four(s)
> 
> that being said -- it's great for the Haute.
> 
> As to football; $$ games; in a perfect world, we'd only do a $$$ game in odd or even numbered years, because the team will be in the black (as well as the MBB and WBB) being in the black.
> 
> So by 2013, State football never loses to a NAIA, Div II or Div III team, they're playing a B10 team every other year and in the year that they're not, they're playing a MAC or Sunbelt (Maybe a C-USA school) and going minimum of .500 in the MVFC.
> Too ambitious?!  Optimistic???



Way to ambitious, however I made a vow to myself that I wouldn't talk negativly about the football program so I don't want to make this thread about them... It has actually taken a lot of self disciplin to not say something that I would regret today, see you all didn't think I had the ability to do that! 

This situation we have here in Terre Haute is too good that the NCAA would just not come back or something like that... Even if another site does a good job hosting (which is what you would hope and expect) then the NCAA will still come back to Terre Haute. They have course records that are established here now, which can be a great brometer for how good a runner is compared to Rupp of Oregon. We have an outstanding central location here in the mid-west. The weather is usually cool, but tolorable. The volunteers and meet committee do a fantastic job of putting on the meet. The city of Terre Haute is very supportive of these efforts! I can go on and on... 

People may not think that Cross Country is a big deal around here but it plays more of a role in this local economy than most of you even realize. I won't go as far as saying the local economy depends on the Pre Nationals and Nationals.  But if you ask local hotels thats atleast 2 weekends out of the year that their business sees a drastic boost. The city of Terre Haute would be all for a facility such as the indoor one we are talking about that would bring in 20 to 40 teams for a indoor track meet! I don't the folks at the Hilton downtown would have to much a problem with that. The great thing about Cross Country and track is our fans travel and they stay over night, they stay for a weekend and they spend money in your city... It's logic folks!


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## SycamoreStateofMind

*Let's Talk Numbers*

I want to support some of my previous posts with some background information many of you might not be aware of. 


*Let's Talk Indoor  Track*
Since 1984 the track team has NEVER won an indoor conference title. I contend that some of this can be attributed to the fact that we don't have an actual indoor track like the rest of the MVC teams have. Yet the Sycamores have still been able to realize much success. Since 2000 they have been runner up 5 times and finished 3rd twice. Since 1984 they have 10 runner up finishes and 3rd 11 times. *That leaves an astounding 5 years since 1984 that the Sycamores have not finished 2nd or 3rd*. Very impressive run! 

*Let's Talk Outdoor Track *
Since 1984 the Sycamores have won 6 outdoor conference titles, 2 of those coming since 2000. They have 2 runner up and 2 third place finishes in the 20 century as well. Since 1984 they have 4 runner up finishes and 7 3rd places finishes in the MVC. That leaves only 11 seasons since 1984 that the Sycamores have finished outside the top 3, 7 of those they finished 4th. Again a pretty impressive run. 

NOTE: From 1999 to 2001 the Sycamores finished in the top 20 at the NCAA Indoor Championships. Placing as high as 11th in 1990. 

*Let's Talk Cross Country*
The Sycamores have spent the last 6 years at or near the top of the MVC, including a run of 3 strait titles from 2004-2006. They finished runner up twice and have 3 3rd place finishes since 2000. They have won 5 MVC titles overall and have finished outside the top 3 only 9 times since 1983. 

*Let's Talk Coaching*
On 7 occasions since his arrival at Indiana State 26 years ago John McNichols has been named the MVC Outdoor coach of the year, 4 of those years he was named the NCAA District 5 Track & Field Coach of the year and 5 times he has been named the MVC Cross Country Coach of the Year. I presume this year will be #6. 

*Let's Talk About the Athletes*
On 25 occasions the Sycamores have had an All-American and six times a Sycamore has stood on the number 2 step of the podium of the awards stand at the NCAA National Championships. They have fielded 2 NCAA National Champions (Lancaster, Herring). This goes with out talking about the Womens program which you will names like Kylie Hutson and Holly Hyche the the two greatest female athletes in the history of this university. 

This university has thrown more money into shit programs year after year without paying any attention to the best program in the history of the University. If anyone wants to compare numbers feel free. You won't find anything comparable to this remarkable run. This is not only the best program at Indiana State it is one of the most successful programs year in and year out in the MVC. 
*IT'S TIME WE BUILD AN INDOOR TRACK! NO EXCUSES AT THIS POINT.*


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## 4Q_iu

*How do we pay for it...*

*Let's talk revenue:*

There are two, on occasion, three revenue sports in the NCAA; football and men's basketball; on occasion, some schools turn a profit on women's basketball.

How is State, in today's economy, going to pay for this facility?  Will it pay for itself in ticket sales?  Even if State would host 1 invitational and 4-5 duals/tri-s; those folks of T-H are going to sell out the stands?

State will receive zero direct moneys from the teams staying in town for an invitational (unless we rent rooms out of one of the dorms and charge for their meals in the cafeteria)

Good breakdown on the success of the X-Country and Track teams; the Men's and Women's tennis teams have been quite successful as well; multiple individual and team conference titles; some NCAA post-season play.

No, no Sycamore Tennis player has fared well / played deep in the NCAA tourney but they've been successful.

Which should come first, re-instatement of the tennis program or this facility?  I know what the numbers will say...


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## SycamoreStateofMind

We are talking about contributing to the long term vitality of the track program. I would consider a new facility of the up most importance. Of course "if" hypothetically speaking you cut the football program then those funds that were supposed to go to the football program could be re-inserted into a track fund. However you still have the responsability of full-filling those scholarships of all of the players up to 1 year, I think? 

However I don't think this is the best plan, what I should say is I don't want an indoor track at the expense of another program like football. This university and city really needs that football program to be successful. You don't cut a program to build an indoor track, not suggesting that. Tennis was not cut so they could build an indoor track. I contend that we had nothing to do with that decision... Why should us getting a new facility have any thing to do with them? 

The Cross Country program itself generates a ton of revenue for the University hosting Pre Nationals every year, granted not enough to build the kind of facility we are talking about. I think you need to take into consideration that Indiana State is one of the only Cross Country country programs in the nation that does generate revenues. So instead of always saying that Track and XC are non revenue generating sports we should first appriciate the fact that we have people in place who indeed do know how to generate funds for non revenue programs at other University's. Thank God we are an exception to the rule! 

Obviously for this facility to be built it would take donations from alums and others outside the university, no doubt. But my point here is this, the Athletic Dept. and University need to make a commitment to building it before you can start asking people for donations. They need to say, "look we have the renderings to build a new indoor track and multi athletic facility, here is what it is going to take to do it and here is our time line for completion" and boom they have taken the initiative. That is all I am asking! Really simple!


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## SamTheFoxSquirrel

Not trying to stir up anything but I would like to see proof that ISU generates revenue from hosting the XC nationals?

Do we get the gate money? 

We don't own the course so how exactly does the University make money? I am asking this only because I have no idea.


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## 4Q_iu

*Explain this...*

_The Cross Country program itself generates a ton of revenue for the University hosting Pre Nationals every year, granted not enough to build the kind of facility we are talking about..._

because I don't truly understand; does the NCAA pay State to host?  I get how the Haute makes revenue but unless State receives 'hosting' fees or has 'donation boxes' out at Gibson, how (specifically) does State make money?


No, an indoor track facility should not be affected by the tennis programs but if you don't understand how EVERY athletic program at State is inter-related...  Yes, some monies are separate but are they not shared / spent communally??


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Well I have posted to this point before but here is how it works, at Pre Nationals ever year their are approx. 180 teams (90 Mens Teams and 90 Womens Teams) at 350$ a pop you do the math? Then times that by how ever many years we have had Pre Nats (we will say 7) and you will have a pretty impressive number. We get to keep all funds generated from Pre-Nationals, Indiana State hosts the event. We also are charging folks that come in the gate and we do get a potion of those funds as well. 

And don't you think for a minute that their is not a financial incentive for hosting the National meet every year. I don't know that I am at liberty to say what that amount is. But I can assure you that Indiana State's Cross Country program is generating as much or more revenue than any program in the country! 

I understand the "interrelated" argument, no need to re-hash old conversation, that is why I don't want this facility to have to be built resulting in the termination of a program. I think everyone would agree that it makes no sense for you to get rid of a program simply to build a new facility. Even though that might be an underlying reason, it will never surface as a reason.


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## 4Q_iu

*Thanks for...*

the data dump.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

We are talking about a minimum of $60,000 from the Pre Nationals meet alone. That's without mentioning ticket sales or anything like that. Over the course of 8 years I contend that the Pre Nationals meet has generated a minimum of 500 grand without talking about anything else. 

Fact of the matter is this program generates money however you break it down. Just think if we can host nationals at minimum every other year from the next 10 years, each of those years you will host a pre nationals event, also note that you can still host a MAJOR race in the off years, so you wont go without making any money. 

Also Indiana State hosts the Indiana Intercollegiate meet this year which will generate some money. They also have the opportunity to host the Great Lakes Regional meet (the meet that ultimately determine if you will run in the Nationals) in national off years (when the meet is hosted at a site other than Gibson).


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## SamTheFoxSquirrel

So the numbers that you provide still does not equal the amount of money the football team has brought in in the same span of time, by playing thier money game every year. But yet you say they bring in more than any other program in the country, I sure hope you mean XC programs. That I may believe. But, we get at least $200,000 every single year by way of a money game with the football program. So the XC is not even the highest revenue team at our school. 

By your stats, if it took 8 years to generate $500,000, by way of the Nationals and Pre-Nationals that would be $62,500 per year. Then that would mean in that same time frame if the football team got $200,000 per year they would generate $1,600,000. Then you will talk about ticket sales. I would almost gaurntee that through the course of a football season they generate more in ticket sales than the Nationals do, just a guess but a safe bet in my opinion.


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## Sackalot

I am just simply confused...Hosting a national event like XC certainly will generate money for athletics.  But it can't possibly be all that much...the numbers don't work out.  With the cost of insurance, cost of NCAA fees, cost of facility (ISU has to pay something to use the facility and to keep it up since they don't own it but they pretty much tear it up by the end of the event). I am no expert, but there has to be multiple costs involved in hosting the event that aren't in your estimates.  Advertising, organization, timing, scoring the event, travel (of officials), etc.   Sure there are hundreds of volunteers, but there are expenses to doing an event like this too. 

Don't get me wrong, I think it is AMAZING that ISU hosts this event and has such a great XC course and program.  But, I also think that you are being quite liberal in your estimates.  Yes, hundreds come to TH for the event and stay in the hotels, eat at restaurants, etc. but ISU doesn't get much if any of that money.  Yes, teams pay a registration fee but I find it hard to beleive that all of that fee goes directly to athletics, their are administrative fees, part of that has to go to maintenance, part of that has to go to licensing costs for the NCAA, etc.  And ISU always finds a way to fee anyone to death...so I would find it very hard to beleive that the XC program gets all that money..in fact I would say they barely get half...I could be wrong, but my experience and general knowledge of ISU tells me that XC doesn't get much, if any of that money, heck athletics probably doesn't get much. 

Morgan, I am sure I don't know what I am talking about here..just my thoughts though


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## Jason Svoboda

Regardless, it still boils down to money. 

The only way I see this project getting off the ground is if the track and cross country alumni start a funding drive and go to Prettyman with it. Morgan, considering this is your baby here, have you ever considered doing something like that? Or, is there already something like that in place? If so, how much has the University already raised and put into this project's kitty? If that number is or close to $0, it is a pipe dream and moot point. 

Also, what is your estimate on the number of track and cross country alumni from State?


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Sam: Of course I was not saying that the Cross Country program makes more money than any athletic program in the country? I can't believe you think I am that stupid to make such a comment. What I was saying is that the Cross Country program makes as much or more money than any other Cross Country program in the country. Look I don't really care how much damn money the football program brings in. You know what's really stupid is that we can even compare football and cross country. lol This topic has become laughable. 

Here is what happens here, you guys tell me the program does not generate money and you don't understand how it does. I show you facts that it does generate money and you shoot them down by comparing them to football. Are you serious? I don't think you really can appreciate how much money this Cross Country program is brining in a year. You also can't appreciate how successful of a program this is. You simply don't get it. 

Sack: The Terre Haute Convention and Visitors Bureau picks up the majority of the marketing costs. I am not suggesting that their are NO costs involved, I am simply saying that we have positioned are selves pretty well. I mean we are talking about maintaining a cross country course. All you really have to do out their is mow the grass and pay the water bill for the irrigation system installed on the front strait. (Might be the only Cross Country course not on a golf course in the world with it's own irrigation system). I don't know what kind of fees are associated with the Wabash Valley Sports Center? I also don't have access to the financial statements, so it's hard for me to say how much revenue the Cross Country team brings in every year when all is said and done.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Jason Svoboda said:


> Regardless, it still boils down to money.
> 
> The only way I see this project getting off the ground is if the track and cross country alumni start a funding drive and go to Prettyman with it. Morgan, considering this is your baby here, have you ever considered doing something like that? Or, is there already something like that in place? If so, how much has the University already raised and put into this project's kitty? If that number is or close to $0, it is a pipe dream and moot point.
> 
> Also, what is your estimate on the number of track and cross country alumni from State?




I am asking for a commitment from the University before you go start asking our thousands of alumni for money. Is their a specific plan in place for fundraising? Not that I am aware of, but you can be certain that Coach McNichols has had individual conversations with alumni that would be in favor of such a project. 

I think getting the support of the administration and RP and folks is job #1. Because if you think the alumni are going to come up with money in access of 10 million then that is a pipe dream. If the University says they will match whatever we raise then you have something to shoot for. Then people can look at the project and say it's going to cost 14 million to build, now we need to raise 7 million $. That is doable. 

I would say that the day John McNichols started mapping out plans to build a Championship Cross Country course on an old landfill that people thought he was crazy. I would imagine that when he said that Indiana State would host nationals one day people thought he was crazy. I ran at that course in middle school when it first opened and it has came a long way. I have made this point once and I will make it again, this program deserves this. Hopefully someone over their reads this - because I know folks at the foundation office are own sycamorehoops all the time. I know people are on here reading this stuff!


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## Jason Svoboda

I think it works the other way around though, Morgan. Additionally, I don't think you need (and it would be ridiculous) to come up with the full $10 million, or whatever the figure may be. However, I know the baseball facility had some alumni that stepped up and threw down some major coin.

If this were something I was truly passionate about, my goal would be to organize and rally those track and cross country alumni. I would try to do a paper pledge drive, like maybe try to get pledges in the $500k range maybe, obviously the higher the better. Once you have that kind of support, go to Prettyman and say here is what we want, here is what we've got and put the ball in his court.

If you have 2500 track and cross country alumni, a $200 pledge by each would hit that $500k mark. Granted, I'm sure there are some more well to do folks that would pledge more and some that wouldn't pledge at all, but you get my point.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

*Your on the right track for sure...*

I see what you are getting at and in reality that makes a lot of sense. However at 23 years old fresh out of college I don't think that I would be as effective at pulling something like this together. I know the people who could make something like this happen, however I am just one voice. 

I mean it does not do me a lot of good to go to a bunch of friends fresh out of college and say here is my plan, now give me $250 bills that you don't have. I just don't know enough alumni that I could really reach that far. What I am trying to say is shouldn't have to be the one that get's something like this started.


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## Jason Svoboda

Morgan said:


> I see what you are getting at and in reality that makes a lot of sense. However at 23 years old fresh out of college I don't think that I would be as effective at pulling something like this together. I know the people who could make something like this happen, however I am just one voice.
> 
> I mean it does not do me a lot of good to go to a bunch of friends fresh out of college and say here is my plan, now give me $250 bills that you don't have. I just don't know enough alumni that I could really reach that far. What I am trying to say is shouldn't have to be the one that get's something like this started.


 
Understandable and I was just being general. Form a RAG -- Runners Action Group. I'd imagine you could get a couple current coaches, and then a group of alumni together to spearhead something like this, no? That way you can hit it from all angles.


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## 4Q_iu

I'm still a bit confused...

Morgan,
You say the X-Cty and Track teams need and deserve this; you say the following:
Originally Posted by Morgan  
_...However at 23 years old fresh out of college I don't think that I would be as effective at pulling something like this together. I know the people who could make something like this happen, however I am just one voice. _

But then say;
Originally Posted by Morgan
_I mean it does not do me a lot of good to go to a bunch of friends fresh out of college and say here is my plan, now give me $250 bills that you don't have. I just don't know enough alumni that I could really reach that far. What I am trying to say is shouldn't have to be the one that get's something like this started. _

You say you’re one voice…  I say take Boda’s advice.  Start the RAG; get some ‘soft commitments’ and go to RP with the plan.

You’ve probably seen Rudy; the person who basically got that movie made was Rudy himself; mainly by making himself a pest to any/all studio heads; I’m not saying they made the movie to shut him up but…

So, make a ‘pest’ of yourself…  Beat the bushes; Get the word out


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## SamTheFoxSquirrel

4Q_iu said:


> So, make a ‘pest’ of yourself…  Beat the bushes; Get the word out



I agree 4Q, the people to make this happen are not on this board if I had to guess. Get with Mr. McNichols get an alumni list and start hitting the trail and drum up some financial commitments from so me people. With the number of student athletes that participate in XC and track every year the has to be a ton of alumni out there. This would allow everyone to just give a little.

If you get this going let me know I would love to contribute to the cause.


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## Jason Svoboda

BTW, Morgan... if you start this crusade, you can put me down for $100. I know it ain't much, but it's something.


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## 4Q_iu

*I could swing that...*

I'm usually good for Booster/Sycamore Backer-level donations to the Ath Dept
Get this program on track and I'll designate 1 year to it


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## SycamoreStateofMind

*Great Support!*

I want to thank you all for your ideas and discussing this topic in a civil way with me. You all really seemed to take interest in understand just how the program raises money and operates and I appreciate you all having an open mind. 

I will also take your idea as to how to get this started into consideration. I think that making my case on here was maybe the first in the right direction to getting something like this going. I want you all to know that the Administration is well aware of the need for an indoor track and they have seen the architecture, I don't doubt that they are on board. I just wish they would verbalize that a little more. I want re-assurance that they support these efforts! 

I want to make sure this program get's what it deserves, they have been neglected for long enough.


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## Sackalot

By the way...dont' think that administrators at ISU aren't "privy" to the discussions on this board...they might not be signed up or posting...but I would bet $$ that Boda could check IP addresses you would find administrative assistants, assistant directors, etc. on here and reporting info, topics, comments, etc.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Any good organization (hold your breath) monitors message boards... I am sure I was able to get my point across, someone has seen this thread and is more knowledgeable than before I started this thread. 

I mean it's essentially an on line comment card... lol Organizations pay big time money to see what people think about them, this aint costing the university a dime. Sometimes it might lead to negative publicity, but if they are doing things right they should read things on here and be ready to respond to the negative publicity.


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## Sycamores23

.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Yeah and I am going to get a new car "some day"... Granted I could go out today and buy a new car and not think twice about it... But "some day" I am going to get a new car... 

Really that's interesting because he and I have conflicting information... You are meaning to say that Indiana State's Cross Country team does not generate as much or more money than any cross country program in the nation? Is that what you are suggesting? Is that a fact or is that an assumption? Do you have numbers to support that statement? 

Look we are not talking about donors here, that is not included in revenue. Those are donations and sure other programs are getting more money out of their alums no doubt. But how in the world is any other program bringing in this kind of cash every year? Explain that to me. I mean none of those schools are hosting an invitational that brings in 90 mens and 90 womens teams... 

If we had an indoor or outdoor track we could generate revenue, we would have the ability to host a top notch indoor or outdoor invitational. You don't think the Drake Relays became big over night do you? It is an event that developed over time, you have to start somewhere. See that's the problem many of these folks that claim to be Sycamore fans live in a damn hole. They have the best Cross Country Course in nation and they want to find ways to say yeah but.... Yeah but, you only are making money from entry fees. Yeah but, their are other programs making more money. Yeah but, football makes more money. 

I am tired of having to defend the best program this university has past, present and future... It must make you all sick that this is the best athletic program this university has to offer right now... Because it doesn't matter what I post on here about how good the Track and Cross Country teams are or how they do actually generate money, how they really don't cost the university much money compared to other programs and how they could make money if they had a new program. But someone always has a rebuttal... You wanted numbers I gave you numbers, you want conference titles I gave you conference titles, you want all Americans  I gave you several of those, you want National Champions I gave you several of those, you want MVC Coach of the year awards I gave you several of those. GET THE POINT? THIS IS THE BEST WE GOT BOYS!


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## Sycamores23

No one's arguing with you about how good they are or have been. I think "best program this university has past, present, and future" is a little overboard but I am in agreeance with you about their success. The teams are made up of great people and I love the coaches! Unfortunately it comes down to the fact that it's cross country and track and more people are interested in the other sports and that means more apt to donate money to those programs, not to an indoor track facility. That's just reality.


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## Jason Svoboda

I'm telling you Morgan, RAG up buddy!


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## 4Q_iu

*Come in from the ledge*

I know of no ISU national champions in X-Ctry, track -- yes; Hyche, Lancaster, et al.
Yes, State track and x-cty are great, low cost teams but at the end of the day, it's 'butts in seats.'

As to revenue -- we can all argue, don't think we'll ever agree.


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## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> I know of no ISU national champions in X-Ctry, track -- yes; Hyche, Lancaster, et al.
> Yes, State track and x-cty are great, low cost teams but at the end of the day, it's 'butts in seats.'
> 
> As to revenue -- we can all argue, don't think we'll ever agree.


Didn't we have the National Champ in the Pole Vault THIS year?


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## 4Q_iu

*SRAG - Sycamore Runners Action Group*

Morgan,

  A couple of starting points:

To Incorporate in Indiana
Submit 2 sets of Articles of Incorporation (original plus a copy) to:

Secretary of State
Corporations Division
302 W. Washington Street, Rm. E018
Indianapolis, IN 46204 
Information: (317) 232-6576
Fax: (317) 233-3387
Web Site: www.in.gov/sos
Filing Fee: $30 
To Obtain 501(c)(3) Tax-Exempt Status
Submit Form 1023, Application for Recognition of Exemption to:

Note new address:
Internal Revenue Service
P.O. Box 12192
Covington, KY 41012-0192 
Information: (800) 829-1040
Forms: (800) 829-3676
Web Site: www.irs.gov/charities
Filing Fee: $750 ($300 if revenues less than $10,000/year) 
To Obtain Indiana Income Tax Exemption
The Corporate Income Tax in Indiana was repealed in January, 2003.

To Obtain Indiana Sales Tax Exemption
To obtain sales tax exemption the organization must submit Form NP-20A along with a copy of the IRS determination letter, Articles of Incorporation, and bylaws to:

Indiana Department of Revenue
Nonprofit Section, Room N203
100 North Senate Avenue
Indianapolis, IN 46204-2253 
Information: (317) 232-2188
Web Site: www.in.gov/dor

Note: Once sales tax exemption has been granted by the DOR, the organization must supply each vendor with a sales tax exemption certificate, Form ST-105.  

Found at:  http://www.hurwitassociates.com/l_s_initial_in.php


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Indoor and Outdoor National Champion in the Pole Vault just this year, how soon we all forget. What a shame! 

4Q you are right we are not going to agree on this, because if all it had to do with was "butt's in the seat" then football would have been gone a long time ago. For the last 5 years no 1 has been going to watch them play and I don't care how much money you think they are making of those 1 time a year money games. They are not making as much revenue as you all think they are making. Esp. when they spend that much money on renovations. They will operate at a loss yet again this year. I can assure you that at the end of the day the Cross Country program and as a combined effort will not operate at a loss this year. 

I am not trying to pin Cross Country or Track up with revenue sports like Football and Hoops. Hell I like football and hoops a hell of a lot better than I like Cross Country. I two would rather watch a NCAA college basketball game the a Cross Country meet, you got me! What get's me is really the fact that you all are ignoring the facts and that is the same thing the University has done for some time. They turn their head to an obvious need... Not to mention it is deserved.


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## 4Q_iu

*Yep -- NCAA Indoor AND Outdoor Pole Vault Champion*

Kylie Hutson 

I just didn't take the time to grab her name off GoSycamores.com

No intention of demeaning her accomplishments

Morgan;

2-3 people have offered a total of ~$300-$450 towards the Sycamores RAG; that's possibly 1/2 the cost of the legal filings...


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## SycamoreStateofMind

4Q_iu said:


> Morgan,
> 
> A couple of starting points:
> 
> To Incorporate in Indiana
> Submit 2 sets of Articles of Incorporation (original plus a copy) to:
> 
> Secretary of State
> Corporations Division
> 302 W. Washington Street, Rm. E018
> Indianapolis, IN 46204
> Information: (317) 232-6576
> Fax: (317) 233-3387
> Web Site: www.in.gov/sos
> Filing Fee: $30
> To Obtain 501(c)(3) Tax-Exempt Status
> Submit Form 1023, Application for Recognition of Exemption to:
> 
> Note new address:
> Internal Revenue Service
> P.O. Box 12192
> Covington, KY 41012-0192
> Information: (800) 829-1040
> Forms: (800) 829-3676
> Web Site: www.irs.gov/charities
> Filing Fee: $750 ($300 if revenues less than $10,000/year)
> To Obtain Indiana Income Tax Exemption
> The Corporate Income Tax in Indiana was repealed in January, 2003.
> 
> To Obtain Indiana Sales Tax Exemption
> To obtain sales tax exemption the organization must submit Form NP-20A along with a copy of the IRS determination letter, Articles of Incorporation, and bylaws to:
> 
> Indiana Department of Revenue
> Nonprofit Section, Room N203
> 100 North Senate Avenue
> Indianapolis, IN 46204-2253
> Information: (317) 232-2188
> Web Site: www.in.gov/dor
> 
> Note: Once sales tax exemption has been granted by the DOR, the organization must supply each vendor with a sales tax exemption certificate, Form ST-105.
> 
> Found at:  http://www.hurwitassociates.com/l_s_initial_in.php



I know I know I work for a non for profit I understand the process... Thanks for posting the mailing information you saved me the effort. I will be sure to include you and Boda both on the committee...


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## 4Q_iu

*No problem...*

may be harder for me to work from 'afar'
but it's time the alumni started doing more; either with or w/out State


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## 4Q_iu

*More 'fuel' for the Sycamores RAG*

The Coughlan Cup is an “all-sports trophy” for Missouri Valley Conference cross country and track & field teams with points awarded based on a team’s finish in men and women’s cross country, indoor track and field, and outdoor track and field championship meets. 

The cup was named by Steve Rainbolt of Wichita State in honor of John Coughlan, long time Illinois State coach who is the only coach in MVC history to have won all six championships in his career as a head coach.

Indiana State has won six Coughlan Cups over the past 17 years, the most of any Missouri Valley Conference school. Wichita State, Northern Iowa and Southern Illinois have three each with Illinois State winning two.

Southern Illinois won the 2008-2009 cup after securing championships in men’s cross country, women’s indoor track & field, and women’s outdoor track & field. The Salukis were second in men’s outdoor track & field, third in men’s indoor track & field, and fourth in women’s cross country.

Indiana State finished third with second place finishes in men’s cross country and men’s indoor track & field. The Sycamores were third in both the men’s and women’s outdoor track & field championships, fourth in the indoor women’s track & field championship, and sixth in women’s cross country.

Over the past 17 years, the Sycamores have been the dominant school of the six championships in the Missouri Valley with an average place finish of 3.08 and a 17-year point total of 314.5. Northern Iowa is second with 363.5 points and an average finish of 3.56. The Indiana State men have an average finish of 2.85 during that time period with a total of 145.5 points, second best in the conference. The Sycamore women have an average finish of 3.31 and 169 points, also second best in the conference.

Over the past five years, however, Indiana State is third with 102.5 points and an average finish of 3.42. The Sycamore men have an average finish of 2.23 and 33.5 points, best in the conference, while the ISU women have an average finish of 4.60 and 69 points, sixth best in the conference.


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## SycamoreFan317

Morgan said:


> Yeah and I am going to get a new car "some day"... Granted I could go out today and buy a new car and not think twice about it... But "some day" I am going to get a new car...
> 
> Really that's interesting because he and I have conflicting information... You are meaning to say that Indiana State's Cross Country team does not generate as much or more money than any cross country program in the nation? Is that what you are suggesting? Is that a fact or is that an assumption? Do you have numbers to support that statement?
> 
> Look we are not talking about donors here, that is not included in revenue. Those are donations and sure other programs are getting more money out of their alums no doubt. But how in the world is any other program bringing in this kind of cash every year? Explain that to me. I mean none of those schools are hosting an invitational that brings in 90 mens and 90 womens teams...
> 
> If we had an indoor or outdoor track we could generate revenue, we would have the ability to host a top notch indoor or outdoor invitational. You don't think the Drake Relays became big over night do you? It is an event that developed over time, you have to start somewhere. See that's the problem many of these folks that claim to be Sycamore fans live in a damn hole. They have the best Cross Country Course in nation and they want to find ways to say yeah but.... Yeah but, you only are making money from entry fees. Yeah but, their are other programs making more money. Yeah but, football makes more money.
> 
> I am tired of having to defend the best program this university has past, present and future... It must make you all sick that this is the best athletic program this university has to offer right now... Because it doesn't matter what I post on here about how good the Track and Cross Country teams are or how they do actually generate money, how they really don't cost the university much money compared to other programs and how they could make money if they had a new program. But someone always has a rebuttal... You wanted numbers I gave you numbers, you want conference titles I gave you conference titles, you want all Americans  I gave you several of those, you want National Champions I gave you several of those, you want MVC Coach of the year awards I gave you several of those. GET THE POINT? THIS IS THE BEST WE GOT BOYS!



Morgan, the numbers you presented were not hard numbers so who are you to be second guessing. Earlier this summer you dissed RP on this board now you are openly second guessing an Assistant AD you definitely do not stay at Holiday Inn Express.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Nice thanks for posting this! Good stuff right their... I expect the Sycamores to claim this once again this season. They have so many new talented guys on the distance squad and we will have a more experienced Track team this season. I look forward to a big year year from these two teams!


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## SycamoreFan317

Just for the record I am neutral about this project at this point in time. With the University having a fund raising campaign underway I am not sure if now would be the best time for the track, xcountry community to have their own fund raising campaign. Some may look at it as  if they are trying to put themselves in front of the University. Does anybody agree or disagree?


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Yeah I tend to agree with that a little bit... I mean that's part of the reason I want the University to address this as a priority. I mean if they would come out and say that they are looking for ways for funding a renovation to the west end of the hyper building then that would give everyone a incentive...


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## Sycamores23

.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Yeah I guess you haven't sat in some of the meetings that my insiders have then have you? Trust me this goes higher than the athletic office they have seen this thing and they know that something needs to be done. 

Are you speaking for the athletic department when you say this is not going to happen? I just want to get that strait? And when you say they will turn it down "almost immediately", are you telling me theirs a chance that they won't? Because almost immediately and immediately are two different things. I really like my chances with the almost in their. Sycamore 23 I don't think you understand the importance of a facility like this. 

If you don't think we are going to get an indoor track that's fine I can respect that. But the question now becomes, why in the world has this not been a priority? It's not like they haven't known about the need for a new indoor track, however they continue to put money into programs that don't produce results. I am talking about a basic reward system that rewards programs for winning. If you don't do that what the heck is the incentive to win? Besides keeping your job.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Sycamores23 said:


> But they aren't - that's the point. We just renovated the football stadium, tennis courts (crap), track (regardless of its insignificance it still cost money), were supposed to put air conditioning in the south gym but are instead pushing it back to next year because of some asbestos which we will spend money on to have eliminated, plus softball is receiving some upgrades with their field, and not to mention are beginning to build a brand new million dollar baseball complex. So although I think it would be awesome to see an indoor track facility, it isn't going to happen anytime soon. The administrators will turn it down almost immediately.



You know what at the end of the day none of this really matters. Because if I go to Indiana State with a $8 million check in hand, I think that Indiana State will do the right thing and do everything in their power to get a $14 million indoor track complex, don't you? I mean because I could always send that money back to the donors. Access makes that a real simple process.. lol


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## Sycamores23

.


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## Jason Svoboda

Morgan is in his twenties if I'm not mistaken, so if he has a child running Track at State already, we may want to get him in touch with some of the major news outlets because if we sell his story of fathering children at like age 4 or 5, I think we could bank some serious coin which would pay for the track in the first place.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Sycamores23 said:


> .



What happened where did that post go? Huh? You didn't want to keep that post up, hmmm. You took that down pretty quick. I am just going to let you know that was a pretty good move. Because I have some pretty "hott" news right now that I really didn't want to have to be the one to leak. You know because I don't know anything and all... Ha. right....


----------



## Sycamores23




----------



## IndyTreeFan

If Ron Prettyman is aware of this project, and I'm sure he is or Morgan wouldn't talk like he was, you can be sure that he's totally open to finding ways to pay for it.  I doubt it's at the top of his priority list, but he is always looking for funding to get his projects done, and this is no different.  Come to him with a 50% commitment, and I'll bet he'll jump to get the other half...


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## SycamoreStateofMind

ITF he is well aware of it and so are his higher ups. I can say that with absolute certainty that they have seen the renderings for this project. And for someone from the athletic to get on here and tell me that know one cares about track like Sycamore23 did that's not a very smart move. Esp. considering those drawings were done for the university as a free proposal no strings attached. I mean someone took time out of their day to do those and 23 pretty much told us it was all for not because track and field didn't matter... Is that not what you said 23, before you hit that smooth delete button on your post? Lucky for you, I was sure to make copy of that post for "future" reference... 

Something tells me if John McNichols had drawings for a new indoor track that he would be having conversations with the necessary people behind closed doors to move this project forward.

Don't ya think?


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## 4Q_iu

*Full Disclosure...*

Fess up Morgan -- You drew up the plans for an indoor track facility, didn't you?

Bought a easy CAD program and spent a couple of hours over the weekend??


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## SycamoreStateofMind

I don't even know what CAD stands for... lol That might make me sound really un-educated, however I don't deal with those kind of things. But yeah I just did those things up real sweet and put a number on it, that's why it was such a broad number $10 to 20 million. Not because the design had several add on's and removables, just that I didn't know what a "real" number for something like this would cost.. lol 

But 23 has also educated us about the athletic departments funds, they quote "don't have any money". Nice... Glad we are all well aware of the financial statement of the Indiana State University Athletic Department. I need to know how much money I need to raise.


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## SycamoreFan317

Morgan said:


> I don't even know what CAD stands for... lol That might make me sound really un-educated, however I don't deal with those kind of things. But yeah I just did those things up real sweet and put a number on it, that's why it was such a broad number $10 to 20 million. Not because the design had several add on's and removables, just that I didn't know what a "real" number for something like this would cost.. lol
> 
> But 23 has also educated us about the athletic departments funds, they quote "don't have any money". Nice... Glad we are all well aware of the financial statement of the Indiana State University Athletic Department, did the Assistant AD beside you tell you to say that also or did you come up with that number on your own? I am really just curious, I need to know how much money I need to raise.[/QUOTE
> 
> My recent experience with the State and educational building projects tells me that you better plan on raising pretty close to 100%, especially since this will be seen as having NO educational value. Our local school corporation was flat out told do not bring any athletic only building projects to the State for approval for they will be turned down. We were able to get a swimming pool through after multiple re-designs. To get the baseball field done the baseball parents formed their own corporation and floated a $50K loan to buy the materials at cost and got donated labor. New lights for the football and softball fields was the direct result of a private donation. Improvements to the main gymnasium will be done with a public/private arrangement.
> 
> The State would probably be more likely to be willing to build a parking garage for students to park in before agreeing to put money for a facility that will be for athletes only for they do not care about past successes or failures.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

317 I think that's prolly a reasonable expectation. Sad but reasonable...

At least you all have been able to get on here and discuss this with me. I really appreciate those of you who have supported my opinion and would support a new facility being built. It's good to get these possible road blocks discussed now instead of later...


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## 4Q_iu

*Cad...*

CAD = Computer Assisted Design

http://www1.indstate.edu/ecmet/acad/minor_cad.htm

Not to minimize but think drafting (blueprints) on steroids.

Shoot, folks are designing their own homes today; w/ a PC.

As to the state not funding athletic facilities...

Could be a recession-thing...

Could be a centrally-funded Elementary/Middle/Secondary educational system in Indiana.

Aren't the majority of local schools now funded centrally out of Indy?
Is this it thinly veiled "Robin Hood' Law?


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## SycamoreFan317

The State controls all building funding. You must appear before the DGLF and explain your building project. The colleges and university s have a different committee to go through but still the state approves all projects. Purdue just had their building projects brought to a halt by the State because of their tuition increase that they would not re-consider.


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## SycamoreFan317

Morgan

I really think that you would be more successful if you would take your campaign behind closed doors and make your pitch directly with the decision makers. I guarantee you that no bonus points are being made by bashing the administration on this forum and in the newspaper for their decision making. Talk to them behind close doors be positive and do not second guess their decisons in public and last of all be patient. If you think that they will build off of whatever plans they have been given, you are dead wrong they will get their own plans done. I suspect that the administration will have the same concerns about the project that I am starting to have and that is ROI.  Yes the programs have been successful and some others have not been, but the potential return of  the unsuccessful ones is much greater. True Example: I have a employee that turned a number of small opportunities into regular customers and I had another employee that had been pretty consistent with bringing in business with much larger companies that was much more profitable, but he was an alcoholic that got way out of hand. I chose to invest more money in him for rehab than the bonus I paid my other employee because of POTENTIAL ROI. This is strictly a management decision and I guarantee you that any employee that goes around bashing me for it will not be accumulating any goodwill. I encourage you to think about what I have written and if you decide to take my advice please give us updates from time to time, positive ones.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

And I appreciate your concern, thanks... I will keep ya all updated, you can be sure of it.


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## SycamoreFan317

Morgan, this may be of interest to you.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090909/LOCAL/909090402/Kenley+on+colleges++Scrutiny+just+starting


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Yeah thanks for posting this... You know sure IU has a little more money to put toward new track surface (that's what that 1.5 is going toward), but they already had the best surface in the state of Indiana. 

I still say you walk in the office at I-State with 8 Mill they are going to find what ever means necessary to fund your project... It instantly becomes the next project on the list.317 you are willing to make the same financial commitment as others on this forum made to our cause I assume? lol I mean I already have a $500 commitment from members of Sycamorehoops.com and that's without actually being aggressive. lol


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## SycamoreFan317

Local news in Indy had a segment on a xcountry course along the White River that they said would be the best course in the country within three years.

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=11093684


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## ohio

I can see the course in indy being great for spectators, somewhat fast (except to do loops the course would have to have somewhat sharp turns), and it would be very easy to get to.  

By the way if anyone could raise about 100% for an indoor facility, i believe morgan could.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

SycamoreFan317 said:


> Local news in Indy had a segment on a xcountry course along the White River that they said would be the best course in the country within three years.
> 
> http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=11093684



This is simply Indy attempting to one up Terre Haute yet again... Except this time we have do it better than they can and ever will be able to do it. The location is perfect located just a few miles from major transportation arteries (Highway 70, Highway 40, Hulman Airport and Indy Air) whereas other areas experience extreme traffic congestion the Gibson course being located basically in the country you don't experience such problems.

Also the Gibson course is extreamly well manicured, that course has proved that it can host a large number of meets in a season and can handle a large field of runners. Most courses that get as much "play" as the Gibson course get sloppy when it rains or have lanes developed in the grass due to wear, the Gibson course does not have this problem because you can run so many different tangents. It also drains very well. 

Granted I have not seen the course they have devolved in Indy, but the folks at Indiana State have known about this project for some time. Hell they may have even consulted Coach McNichols advice since he has been so successful. I am telling you the NCAA usually does not play favorites, but they prefer to have the meet in Terre Haute. If someone or some course want's to challenge what we have to offer here in Terre Haute, I think everyone in this community and that course is up for the test!


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Excerpt from today's Tribune Star article - what don't you people understand about this being a running community? _“I’m a sports guy,” admitted Patterson. “We’ve got a distinct thing going. This is the second time we’ve hosted two National Collegiate Championships [cross country and track] in the same year. It’s a positive effect on our community._ He went on to say, _“We’ve hosted 11 Colts Camps. That says we’re capable. We’ve hosted 14 national collegiate championships in 15 years. That says we’re capable. I’m a firm believer that you reap what you sow. The more good things you get out there, the more good things that you’re considered for.”_

My case has been made and rested! This community is set up perfectly to host national championship caliber meets. If you go to the Copper Bar or Terminal tonight you will see Cross Country coaches and fans alike in the bars spending money while their athletes rest in preparation for Saturday's Pre Nationals... In years past I have seen Boston College's coach, UMASS, Arizona State and many others out at the bars having a good ole time right here in Terre Haute, Indiana!


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## Sackalot

I agree, but one question is there enough "hotel, restaurant, etc. type things" for continued growth and national usage?  I am only asking.  I know TH has some new hotels, I know TH has been slowly moving toward a nicer downtown (it should be exactly like Broad Ripple), but I don't know that TH is there just yet as far as the amenities go.


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## 4Q_iu

Morgan;

 I can't find the story -- can you include the link...


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## SycamoreStateofMind

http://www.tribstar.com/progress/local_story_268221947.html

Here ya go...


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