# Horizon League will expand, IPFW to announce move Tuesday



## ISUCC

Article says they will expand soon, no mention of which team(s) will be added, but I suspect either IUPUI or IPFW, or both, have to be on the list. Both those schools would KILL to get out of the far flung summit league and be able to bus all their teams to their competitions. It would save them a lot of $$ for sure. 

http://www.nwitimes.com/sports/bask...cle_cbe63b1a-eec6-532f-bc28-f9c3fa0d60e6.html


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## Jason Svoboda

I know I'm going to get killed for this, but if it were a football league I'd actually advocate for us to move there.


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## ISUCC

I'd agree with that too, it'd be a step down, but we'd probably see better success with FB, men's and women's BB. 

Most HL message board fans seem to be advocating for NKU, Belmont, and Murray State. None of those teams are moving to the HL in my opinion. They have it good where they are. The two schools (of 3, if they want to go to 12 schools) they need to add are IUPUI and IPFW. Those are perfect geographical fits.


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## Bluethunder

Horizon and NKU rumors have been around for awhile.  League really blew it when Butler left by being completely flat footed and not adding anyone then.  Many thought they would go after NKU and then try to expand down to Belmont but it didn't happen.

Would be surprised if they added two teams just because it would create an odd number again.  If they can't add three, they would better served adding just IUPUI.  Jags are better positioned for success than IPFW.


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## nwi stater

Step down? nooooooooooo way.. Just cause it was a shitty year for mbb, we did finish 3rd you know.. FB is back and the track and cc does a outstanding in the mvc why leave??? THe womens sports are getting better why have the attidute we get a busted lip this year, go play with the little guys next year??


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## Southgrad07

Im not going to kill you for it, but I dont agree with it.. We are competing just fine in the MVC (we are 4th and almost 3rd in the 2014-15 MVC all sports standings at the moment), and I enjoy being apart of a higher quality league. The MVC basketball is much more enjoyable to attend and holds more prestige nationwide. I realize that we dont make the tourney as often and I see that more of an ISU issue, not so much an MVC issue.. WSU is on another planet funding wise, but the others arent big time finanical programs. I would have argued that Illinois schools are much bigger, but they have been in the tank lately and the Illinois government is cutting funding to colleges big time this upcoming year, that will trickle down to athletic budgets. 

We'd win more games but I dont think we'd dominate the HL enough to warrant the move down. You tell me that we're going to make the tourney 8 out of 10 years with 25+ wins a year?? Sign me up.... otherwise Im fine with where we're at currently.


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## bent20

We struggle to compete in the MVC because of poor finances. I don't know how long we can keep it up but every year our fans bitch when we collapse at the end of the season and then puff out their chests and boast about being in the MVC. Makes no sense to me.


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## SycamoreinTexas

OVC would be a better conference for us to join!


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## bent20

People can bash the OVC, but at least they do it right. All but one of their schools is publically funded and all but three of their teams play football in the same conference (unlike the MVC where we have NDSU dominating in football but not playing basketball in conference, and WSU doing the same with basketball).


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## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreinTexas said:


> OVC would be a better conference for us to join!



You're correct. The OVC would be a better fit over the Horizon since it is a unified football league.


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## Jason Svoboda

bent20 said:


> People can bash the OVC, but at least they do it right. All but one of their schools is publically funded and all but three of their teams play football in the same conference (unlike the MVC where we have NDSU dominating in football but not playing basketball in conference, and WSU doing the same with basketball).



We'd actually fall in line financially with the member schools there.


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## southernindianaballer

The OVC is a nice conference, geographically centered too.  I have mentioned it here before.  The MVC should be working feverishly to get the football schools to come on board with other sports....  but that creates some additional costs with travel...  Those MVC football schools are not ideal geographically speaking - at least not for ISU.  So maybe they shouldn't reach out to the football schools - what am I saying?  LOL - I don't know...  Looks like a  difficult situation...  The OVC has always seemed to be a good fit for ISU for multiple reasons...
Crazy things could happen... MVC football schools come on board with all sports.... IUPUI joins MVC...  IPFW joinns Horizon...  MVC creates two divisions...  who knows... and what about UE - they seem to be a fit for the OVC, too....  They could give Belmont a "like" school in the OVC.  UE is dead center of the OVC geographically.  Could talk for hours about pros and cons....


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## SycamoreinTexas

southernindianaballer said:


> The OVC is a nice conference, geographically centered too.  I have mentioned it here before.  The MVC should be working feverishly to get the football schools to come on board with other sports....  but that creates some additional costs with travel...  Those MVC football schools are not ideal geographically speaking - at least not for ISU.  So maybe they shouldn't reach out to the football schools - what am I saying?  LOL - I don't know...  Looks like a  difficult situation...  The OVC has always seemed to be a good fit for ISU for multiple reasons...
> Crazy things could happen... MVC football schools come on board with all sports.... IUPUI joins MVC...  IPFW joinns Horizon...  MVC creates two divisions...  who knows... and what about UE - they seem to be a fit for the OVC, too....  They could give Belmont a "like" school in the OVC.  UE is dead center of the OVC geographically.  Could talk for hours about pros and cons....



OVC is 10 times better than Horizon....Not just basketball, but football and baseball. I don't think it would ever happen but that's where ISU should be.


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## Jason Svoboda

southernindianaballer said:


> The OVC is a nice conference, geographically centered too.  I have mentioned it here before.  The MVC should be working feverishly to get the football schools to come on board with other sports....  but that creates some additional costs with travel...  Those MVC football schools are not ideal geographically speaking - at least not for ISU.  So maybe they shouldn't reach out to the football schools - what am I saying?  LOL - I don't know...  Looks like a  difficult situation...  The OVC has always seemed to be a good fit for ISU for multiple reasons...
> Crazy things could happen... MVC football schools come on board with all sports.... IUPUI joins MVC...  IPFW joinns Horizon...  MVC creates two divisions...  who knows... and what about UE - they seem to be a fit for the OVC, too....  They could give Belmont a "like" school in the OVC.  UE is dead center of the OVC geographically.  Could talk for hours about pros and cons....



That doesn't fix the issue and would actually likely widen the gap for us. 

The biggest issue with the MVC stems from the fact that it isn't a unified league. Having splits for the revenue sports allows for each conference to have programs that "specialize" for that particular revenue sport. You can define specialize however you want but I will point to that being focus and spending more money on that sport.  

If our college athletics program is going to succeed long term, I think we need to get into a conference where each school offers the same product line, has similar spending and is a geographic fit so the cost of doing business is cheaper.


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## southernindianaballer

Jason... agree...  good points... if I may speak selfishly...  I would rather travel south rather than west or northwest to see the trees... I think most current students feel the same...  alumni would depend on current residence...
The OVC has some nice locations...  Nashville, Cape Girardeau, Clarksville, Edwardsville/St.Louis, Jacksonville AL is actually close to Atlanta...  MVC has what?  Chicago now... but who doesn't go there for business a few times a year?  Much better road trips for fans and alumni in OVC....  Heck I would like to see UE in the OVC...
Question:  Would having our Illinois neighbor (EIU) in the OVC increase attendance much to speak of and create a rival?  Just curious... not that it matters...


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## Jason Svoboda

southernindianaballer said:


> Jason... agree...  good points... if I may speak selfishly...  I would rather travel south rather than west or northwest to see the trees... I think most current students feel the same...  alumni would depend on current residence...
> The OVC has some nice locations...  Nashville, Cape Girardeau, Clarksville, Edwardsville/St.Louis, Jacksonville AL is actually close to Atlanta...  MVC has what?  Chicago now... but who doesn't go there for business a few times a year?  Much better road trips for fans and alumni in OVC....  Heck I would like to see UE in the OVC...
> Question:  Would having our Illinois neighbor (EIU) in the OVC increase attendance much to speak of and create a rival?  Just curious... not that it matters...



Evansville doesn't belong in the OVC as they don't have football. You could schedule them and have them be part of your yearly OOC slate just as football could rotate between SIU/Illinois State, both schools with long time series. 

EIU is a rival to me. They've close geographically, have similar footprint, similar athletic expenditures, etc. We used to play them pretty much every year in football. 

http://www.sycamorefootball.com/series.php?opponent=25


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## bent20

I think Evansville originally was a member of the OVC. Not sure how long ago that was. 

And EIU is one of our historic rivals in football. Rivalry has just been dead for a number of years since we no longer play each other in the non-conference.


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## Jason Svoboda

bent20 said:


> I think Evansville originally was a member of the OVC. Not sure how long ago that was.
> 
> And EIU is one of our historic rivals in football. Rivalry has just been dead for a number of years since we no longer play each other in the non-conference.



Evansville also used to have football. Different landscape now for non-football schools.


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## ISUCC

I suspect the Horizon will announce an addition after the NCAA tourney is over. July 1 is the usual conference switch date. Again, I think IUPUI and IPFW have to be front runners. 

I wonder if the MVC will add 2 schools and go to 12 this summer? That's a possibility as well. Elgin discussed it in a podcast in December. Not saying we would, but that they were "preparing" for it. 

I don't ever want us to leave the MVC, but if we were ever forced to for some reason the OVC would be a good fit, or the Horizon.


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## IndyTreeFan

For those of you who want to step down in conferences, just be careful what you wish for.  A step down ensures you lower level recruiting, which means less chance for success of the national stage, fewer of those "big wins" talked about in another thread, and even less reason for the Hulman Center project.  We can only put 6,000 in there now with teams like UNI and Wichita coming to town.  What do you think happens when we start seeing SIUE every year.  We might as well move back into the Arena.  So we'll be much more small time with even less reason for people to attend our games.  It will also impact alumni giving and involvement (not that it's good now), and I'm sure there are myriad other unintended consequences that will end up with ISU being a third rate program that has no hope of success on a sustained level.  People who supported ISU in the MVC simply won't support at the same level because they will, generally, see it as ISU going down the crapper.  Maybe a generation from now support could improve.

And also on the "be careful what you wish for" line, we'll probably see an athletic department budget CUT if we move down.  You really think that wouldn't happen?  Be serious.  We might as well stay where we are and be a mid-pack MVC program than move and become a mid-pack OVC program.


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## treeman

if you could put together a 10 team conference that makes geographical sense what would it be? how many privates do you want in it? how many football programs do you want in it? i think that there are 4 other schools in the MVC that are in the same position we are (southern, UNI, missouri state, illinois state) those schools are all public, have football, and have competitive balance. after those 4 other schools you are looking at either inferior talent, non-football schools, private schools, geographical reaches, and or pipe dream schools like Butler or Dayton. It would be hard to pick out 10 schools in the midwest to put together a *top 10 basketball conference* that are all public, have football, and competitive balance. Sorry, but i don't want to play the likes of most teams in the OVC, that is not appealing at all

if i had to put together a realistic conference, this is what it would look like

1. Indiana State
2. Southern Illinois 
3. Northern Iowa
4. Missouri State
5. Illinois State
^^^^^these 5 should stick together regardless
6. Wichita State (football or not, i want them in our conference to raise the profile for basketball and baseball)
7. Western Kentucky (they would be a perfect fit for the MVC if it wasn't for their FBS football)
8. Bradley (private school but great basketball tradition. now only if they were good again)
9. St. Louis (private school but it always irritates me on why they AREN'T in the MVC)
10. Belmont (private school a solid basketball program and who wouldn't want to take road trips to nashville?) 


my next school up
11. Murray State (they have football, come from a great basketball state, very good basketball program)

out of those 11 schools the only school that would be a "dream" is Western Kentucky and that is because of their FBS label.


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## Jason Svoboda

I'm not taking any non football schools. Why put my institution behind the 8 ball?


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## southernindianaballer

treeman said:


> if you could put together a 10 team conference that makes geographical sense what would it be? how many privates do you want in it? how many football programs do you want in it? i think that there are 4 other schools in the MVC that are in the same position we are (southern, UNI, missouri state, illinois state) those schools are all public, have football, and have competitive balance. after those 4 other schools you are looking at either inferior talent, non-football schools, private schools, geographical reaches, and or pipe dream schools like Butler or Dayton. It would be hard to pick out 10 schools in the midwest to put together a *top 10 basketball conference* that are all public, have football, and competitive balance. Sorry, but i don't want to play the likes of most teams in the OVC, that is not appealing at all
> 
> if i had to put together a realistic conference, this is what it would look like
> 
> 1. Indiana State
> 2. Southern Illinois
> 3. Northern Iowa
> 4. Missouri State
> 5. Illinois State
> ^^^^^these 5 should stick together regardless
> 6. Wichita State (football or not, i want them in our conference to raise the profile for basketball and baseball)
> 7. Western Kentucky (they would be a perfect fit for the MVC if it wasn't for their FBS football)
> 8. Bradley (private school but great basketball tradition. now only if they were good again)
> 9. St. Louis (private school but it always irritates me on why they AREN'T in the MVC)
> 10. Belmont (private school a solid basketball program and who wouldn't want to take road trips to nashville?)
> 
> 
> my next school up
> 11. Murray State (they have football, come from a great basketball state, very good basketball program)
> 
> out of those 11 schools the only school that would be a "dream" is Western Kentucky and that is because of their FBS label.



easy for me....  In a dream... I would have Southern Illinois, IndSU, UE join the OVC - reality tells me it's really difficult to have a conference with only football schools - be nice but...  another thought is Lipscomb joining the OVC if UE does, then UNK, Mercer and UTChat.  Make two divisions... North/South or East/West.
So.......
Current OVC members Plus
ISU
SIU
UE
Lipscomb
UNK (bring Cinci market in)
Mercer
UTChat
& beg St. Louis
and that's too many schools... LOL  Let the Missouri Valley have their West Northwest geography... and Wichita isn't a state...
I like this because of the geography and geographical rivalries..  All Tenn school games.. ISU/SIU/EIU/UE... SIUE/SIU/EIU/SEMO/St.Louis....  Mercer/Jacksonville....  Belmont/Lipscomb....  MSU/Belmont/APSU... I can go on...
Inexpensive travel I think... Geography is manageable.  Nice Big City markets... Nashville, Cinci, St. Louis, Chat, Atlanta...


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## bent20

This map is interesting (FCS schools):
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2308083/FCS_Map.png

For football (map):
http://home.comcast.net/~jma155/images/cfb/map/IAA_HelmMap.gif

So...
Indiana State
Illinois State
Eastern Illinois
UNI
Western Illinois
Southern Illinois
Remaining four ... take your pick from the schools in Tennessee and Kentucky. Maybe keep NDSU and SDSU (not ideal location wise, but they have both sports and NDSU isn't bad at basketball). I will contend that having a high profile school in basketball really doesn't serve much of an advantage to us. They're usually either private or have no football program and have a huge financial advantage as a result.


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## SycamoreFan317

Since when does one step down to become better? That doesn't work.


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## Bally #50

bent20 said:


> This map is interesting (FCS schools):
> http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2308083/FCS_Map.png
> 
> For football (map):
> http://home.comcast.net/~jma155/images/cfb/map/IAA_HelmMap.gif
> 
> So...
> Indiana State
> Illinois State
> Eastern Illinois
> UNI
> Western Illinois
> Southern Illinois
> Remaining four ... take your pick from the schools in Tennessee and Kentucky. Maybe keep NDSU and SDSU (not ideal location wise, but they have both sports and NDSU isn't bad at basketball). I will contend that having a high profile school in basketball really doesn't serve much of an advantage to us. They're usually either private or have no football program and have a huge financial advantage as a result.



B20, if we are looking for schools that make sense geographically as well as being "similar" types of institutions, i'd feel very comfortable with your list. I would always desire to see us in the same conference with ILSU and SIU because they've been with us for decades and the rivalries are already there. Same thing with EIU and WIU. UNI is a strong addition obviously but I can see them getting higher "expectations" as their star rises and they may go elsewhere. 

Those that have been around SP for awhile are aware that I personally have touted for some time that I would like to see Indiana State find a way into a new-revised Mid-American Conference knowing that the MAC's "1-A" status is waning, at best, and that whatever the new MIDDLE level designation ends up in football, would be a perfect time for us to join, and hopefully along with SIU and ILSU. I still think that when all of this FBS, FCS craps plays out that my dream might become reality. If it doesn't, I really like your idea. I do not think anything will happen until the new Power 5 set up becomes permanent and the NCAA decides what to do with the REST of the collegiate football world. Then all hell breaks loose in my mind. We'll see but it is fun talking about it.


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## southernindianaballer

southernindianaballer said:


> easy for me....  In a dream... I would have Southern Illinois, IndSU, UE join the OVC - reality tells me it's really difficult to have a conference with only football schools - be nice but...  another thought is Lipscomb joining the OVC if UE does, then UNK, Mercer and UTChat.  Make two divisions... North/South or East/West.
> So.......
> Current OVC members Plus
> ISU
> SIU
> UE
> Lipscomb
> UNK (bring Cinci market in)
> Mercer
> UTChat
> & beg St. Louis
> and that's too many schools... LOL  Let the Missouri Valley have their West Northwest geography... and Wichita isn't a state...
> I like this because of the geography and geographical rivalries..  All Tenn school games.. ISU/SIU/EIU/UE... SIUE/SIU/EIU/SEMO/St.Louis....  Mercer/Jacksonville....  Belmont/Lipscomb....  MSU/Belmont/APSU... I can go on...
> Inexpensive travel I think... Geography is manageable.  Nice Big City markets... Nashville, Cinci, St. Louis, Chat, Atlanta...



To add... I just think the travel expenses west and northwest are pretty high and we are going to dead markets...  markets that don't benefit ISU.  How many students from the Dakotas will consider ISU?  I think I have too many teams... it would be divided in half with 10 teams in each division and you would never meet some teams.. for a few years. But the idea is there to grasp teams on the fringe of or in big markets....  I think Murray, Belmont, ISU, Southern are pretty consistent basketball contenders and if St. Louis were there - wow.  Football contenders are Eastern KY, UTChat, and we are up and coming...  But I like geographic rivalries, low travel costs and big market cities.  I think St. Louis would be all over a conference situation as this is outlined...  Some great attendance at their games would be had and much lower travel expenses.  My idea is heavier in basketball contenders than football which is kind of a benefit to us.


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## bent20

SycamoreFan317 said:


> Since when does one step down to become better? That doesn't work.



Happens all the time and not just in sports. Without the funding to level the playing field, it's not realistic to expect sustained improvement.


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## nwi stater

How about adding Ball State???


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## nwi stater

I would have InState-Ball State- Il.State- Missiour State- Northern Iowa- Ohio U- West.Mich- West Ken.- N. Dakota State.- N. Dakota U.

Dakotas because when I retire up in Minnesota I can go to a couple games!!!


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## bent20

I don't know why Ball State always comes up in discussions like these. Yes, in-state school, former rival, but they hold many advantages over us. Much bigger, better facilities.


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## Bluethunder

Having a horizon league team in my backyard, I have been following this closely.

Many are saying that it will be NKU, with the hope to add Belmont and Murray State later down the road.  People are pretty adamant that it will not be (under any circumstances) IUPUI or IPFW, not matter how bad those schools want in.


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## southernindianaballer

Am I the only one who thinks the MVC is a potential drag on the ISU athletic financials?  Could it be better?  What good does it do for ISU to consistently travel to small markets in Kansas, Iowa, and the Dakotas?  Don't get me wrong the MVC is a solid and good conference and I'm happy ISU is a member.  But....Could ISU be tapping into Nashville, Atlanta, St. Louis markets with repeated conference games... Would that be a better situation?  Not sure... These are areas (larger markets) where we could recruit quality students and athletes, right?? or wrong??  I know we have played Illinois State for years and years....  but are they a real rival?  I don't think the current students know it is - if it is.  I wonder how many ISU alumni live in the Dakotas, Iowa, Normal, Peoria, Carbondale... vs Nashville, Atlanta, St. Louis, all over KY, all over TN?  Just curious...  Could that be a way to get key alumni more involved, too??... don't know... just curious...


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## Syc70

southernindianaballer said:


> Am I the only one who thinks the MVC is a potential drag on the ISU athletic financials?  Could it be better?  What good does it do for ISU to consistently travel to small markets in Kansas, Iowa, and the Dakotas?  Don't get me wrong the MVC is a solid and good conference and I'm happy ISU is a member.  But....Could ISU be tapping into Nashville, Atlanta, St. Louis markets with repeated conference games... Would that be a better situation?  Not sure... These are areas (larger markets) where we could recruit quality students and athletes, right?? or wrong??  I know we have played Illinois State for years and years....  but are they a real rival?  I don't think the current students know it is - if it is.  I wonder how many ISU alumni live in the Dakotas, Iowa, Normal, Peoria, Carbondale... vs Nashville, Atlanta, St. Louis, all over KY, all over TN?  Just curious...  Could that be a way to get key alumni more involved, too??... don't know... just curious...



No FBS Concerns
  Indiana State
  Ball State
  Southern Illinois
  Illinois State
  Northern Illinois
  Northern Iowa
  Missouri State
  Central Michigan
  Western Michigan
  Eastern Michigan

FBS Concerns
  Indiana State
  Southern Illinois
  Illinois State
  Northern Iowa
  Missouri State
  Eastern Illinois
  Western Illinois
  Murray State
  Eastern Kentucky
  Austin Peay


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## 4Q_iu

I'll add a controversial yet simple idea...

drop football and spend those $$$ on increasing the MBB and baseball recruiting, travel, operating budgets.

It'll never happen but it makes the 'most sense.'


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## IndyTreeFan

4Q_iu said:


> I'll add a controversial yet simple idea...
> 
> drop football and spend those $$$ on increasing the MBB and baseball recruiting, travel, operating budgets.
> 
> It'll never happen but it makes the 'most sense.'



I was wondering when someone would say this. Realistically, if we dropped football, that money would just disappear. No sport would get more money. It's a nice thought, but it's very naive, and doesn't take into account other factors. 

Listen up people - nobody gets more money if we drop football. It's just not going to happen.


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## SycamoreFan317

bent20 said:


> Happens all the time and not just in sports. Without the funding to level the playing field, it's not realistic to expect sustained improvement.


Step down and the funding goes down in proportion, it won't make us better.


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## ISUCC

Bluethunder said:


> Having a horizon league team in my backyard, I have been following this closely.
> 
> Many are saying that it will be NKU, with the hope to add Belmont and Murray State later down the road.  People are pretty adamant that it will not be (under any circumstances) IUPUI or IPFW, not matter how bad those schools want in.



But the fans don't decide who gets admitted to the conference, the school presidents do, and if they want IUPUI and IPFW, then they'll add them. The fans (especially Detroit fans) didn't want Oakland, and look what happened, Oakland was admitted. I'd bet one or both of IPFW and IUPUI wind up in the HL at some point. Just makes too much sense for getting to 10-12 teams and keeping the footprint tight


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## Bluethunder

ISUCC said:


> But the fans don't decide who gets admitted to the conference, the school presidents do, and if they want IUPUI and IPFW, then they'll add them. The fans (especially Detroit fans) didn't want Oakland, and look what happened, Oakland was admitted. I'd bet one or both of IPFW and IUPUI wind up in the HL at some point. Just makes too much sense for getting to 10-12 teams and keeping the footprint tight



You might be right, but if either of those two end up in the Horizon you can bet it will be due to several other schools saying no first.  They may have to settle for IUPUI.


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## SycamoreinTexas

SycamoreFan317 said:


> Step down and the funding goes down in proportion, it won't make us better.



Funding wouldn't be as bad as you think....


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## ISUCC

Bluethunder said:


> You might be right, but if either of those two end up in the Horizon you can bet it will be due to several other schools saying no first.  They may have to settle for IUPUI.



it'll be interesting to say the least, NKU doesn't look like too bad of a fit for the HL, they're somewhat close to Wright State. It shouldn't add flights for any HL schools either. It looks like UW-Green Bay and UW-Milwaukee would be the furthest schools away from NKU. 

I can not see them adding Belmont and Murray State either. I think they really like what they have in the OVC. So add UNK, IUPUI, and IPFW and you're at 12 teams. 

If UNK leaves the A-Sun, that leaves the A-Sun at 7 teams also.


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## bent20

SycamoreFan317 said:


> Step down and the funding goes down in proportion, it won't make us better.



Honestly, funding can't go down much more. We're already far below what other conference schools pay their coaches and spend on their facilities. Cut it more and we won't be able to afford gas to send our teams anywhere or turn on the lights at the stadiums.


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## IndyTreeFan

bent20 said:


> Honestly, funding can't go down much more. We're already far below what other conference schools pay their coaches and spend on their facilities. Cut it more and we won't be able to afford gas to send our teams anywhere or turn on the lights at the stadiums.



Oh, yes it can go down.  You doubt the ability of ISU to do things on the cheap?  Come now, you've been around long enough to know how this place works...


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## nwi stater

Gee, would we be having this discussion if we would have won a couple games?


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## 4Q_iu

IndyTreeFan said:


> I was wondering when someone would say this. Realistically, if we dropped football, that money would just disappear. No sport would get more money. It's a nice thought, but it's very naive, and doesn't take into account other factors.
> 
> Listen up people - nobody gets more money if we drop football. It's just not going to happen.



Naïve?  I'll reserve what you can do.  Do I WANT to drop football?  No.   Is it possible in the next 5-10 years we're forced to b/c of $$ ?  Never say never.

BUT since YOU'RE 'brilliant'  Spell out the factors.


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## IndyTreeFan

4Q_iu said:


> I'll add a controversial yet simple idea...
> 
> drop football and spend those $$$ on increasing the MBB and baseball recruiting, travel, operating budgets.
> 
> It'll never happen but it makes the 'most sense.'





IndyTreeFan said:


> I was wondering when someone would say this. Realistically, if we dropped football, that money would just disappear. No sport would get more money. It's a nice thought, but it's very naive, and doesn't take into account other factors.
> 
> Listen up people - nobody gets more money if we drop football. It's just not going to happen.





4Q_iu said:


> Naïve?  I'll reserve what you can do.  Do I WANT to drop football?  No.   Is it possible in the next 5-10 years we're forced to b/c of $$ ?  Never say never.
> 
> BUT since YOU'RE 'brilliant'  Spell out the factors.



Well, someone's touchy today.  Sheesh, take a valium and relax...

The only reason that ISU would drop football would be to plug a budget deficit in the athletic department.  That being the case, the money spent on football wouldn't be going to any other sport, it would simply reduce, or eliminate, that deficit.  ISU will never drop football just to spend that money on other sports.  That just ain't gonna happen.  Sorry if that offends you, but it's the simple truth of the situation.

For the record, I don't see ISU dropping football any time soon.  But if they did, it would be to _save_ money, not to redistribute it.


----------



## 4Q_iu

IndyTreeFan said:


> Well, someone's touchy today.  Sheesh, take a valium and relax...
> 
> The only reason that ISU would drop football would be to plug a budget deficit in the athletic department.  That being the case, the money spent on football wouldn't be going to any other sport, it would simply reduce, or eliminate, that deficit.  ISU will never drop football just to spend that money on other sports.  That just ain't gonna happen.  Sorry if that offends you, but it's the simple truth of the situation.
> 
> For the record, I don't see ISU dropping football any time soon.  But if they did, it would be to _save_ money, not to redistribute it.



So... no factors... just your opinion....

Is the Athl Dept swimming in $$$$ ?

Highly, HIGHLY doubtful

Could we drop football, spend more on other sports and STILL be money ahead?

Highly likely.

WILL we?   Unknown

if we WERE to move to the Horizon, (shudder); it would be LOGICAL to move the football team to the Pioneer League (no scholie) build a "great HS football field" and move on.   Or just drop football, like all but two of the HL members...


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreFan317 said:


> Since when does one step down to become better? That doesn't work.



I understand your theory, but IMO... when you step onto a level playing field you have more room for success and can elevate your program. 

Don't get me wrong, I love the Valley but I don't like the unlevel playing field. When the Valley was originally formed, I'm pretty sure every school had a football team. Now you have half of the "main" conference that are solely basketball schools that either don't have football at all or have non scholarship football: Bradley, Drake, Evansville, Loyola and Wichita State. On the football side of things, you had Viverto go out and get schools that "specialize" in football or have strong football spending: Western Illinois, Youngstown State, North Dakota State, South Dakota State and South Dakota. In today's sports landscape where money is critical for facilities, buy games, buying coaches and players, it is a bad situation for us. Yes, we can still compete but you end up with what we've seen the last 10 years since college sports really went nutso financial. 

*Athletic Expenses (2013)*

*134 - Wichita State - $22.67m *
146 - Southern Illinois - $21.22m
163 - Illinois State - $19.57m
*195 - Drake - $16.12m*
200 - Missouri State - $15.13m
207 - Northern Iowa - $14.49m
217 - Eastern Illinois - $13.92m
*220 - Bradley - $13.65m*
232 - Tennessee State - $12.71m
235 - Jacksonville State - $12.64m
*236 - Loyola - $12.51m*
256 - Eastern Kentucky - $11.86m
258 - Murray State - $11.79m
261 - Indiana State - $11.69m
268 - Tennessee Tech - $11.5m
*280 - Belmont - $11.06m
295 - Evansville - $10.46m*
304 - Southeast Missouri - $9.95m
307 - Austin Peay - $9.70m
312 - Tennessee-Martin - $9.29m
*324 - Morehead State - $8.15m
329 - SIU Edwardsville - $7.55m*
*
Basketball Expenses (2013)*

*62 - Wichita State - $5.37m
91 - Bradley - $3.81m
122 - Drake - $2.56m*
132 - Northern Iowa - $2.40m
133 - Illinois State - $2.39m
*138 - Loyola - $2.36m
141 - Evansville - $2.25m*
151 - Missouri State - $2.11m
191 - Indiana State - $1.7m
225 - Southern Illinois - $1.48m

Bolded teams either have non-scholarship football or no football program. I was unable to get basketball expenses for the Ohio Valley because bbstate now only lets you view a couple pages per day. I'll have to grab them tomorrow.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> I was wondering when someone would say this. Realistically, if we dropped football, that money would just disappear. No sport would get more money. It's a nice thought, but it's very naive, and doesn't take into account other factors.
> 
> Listen up people - nobody gets more money if we drop football. It's just not going to happen.



I don't want to drop football but I don't think we'd lower funding the way you think we would if we did. We'd probably lose 50% but I do think they'd divert portions to the men's and women's basketball programs but only those since they are revenue sports. If they didn't, there is little reason to have a college athletics program. I also don't think they would drop the budget if we moved "down" to the OVC. It would be ISU's chance to be a big fish and I think Dr. Bradley would relish that... honestly do.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

nwi stater said:


> Gee, would we be having this discussion if we would have won a couple games?



We've had this discussion since 2007. It's fascinating and always good conversation during the offseason.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> I don't want to drop football but I don't think we'd lower funding the way you think we would if we did. We'd probably lose 50% but I do think they'd divert portions to the men's and women's basketball programs but only those since they are revenue sports. If they didn't, there is little reason to have a college athletics program. I also don't think they would drop the budget if we moved "down" to the OVC. It would be ISU's chance to be a big fish and I think Dr. Bradley would relish that... honestly do.



Nice thought, never gonna happen.  Now, it's just my opinion (don't want to piss off 4Q again), ok, maybe a bit more than that, but cutting football would only result in the closing of a budget deficit.  And that would only be done if the BOT decided that the deficit is unsustainable.  In that light, there would be no money for other sports, simply because they were borrowing that money already, and they're not going to continue doing that for women's basketball, and politics will keep them from doing it for men's basketball.  So, funding for other sports wouldn't change, and we'd be no better off than we are now, except that we're spending less money.

Have fun being the "big fish in a smaller pond."  I'd be totally done with ISU if they did that.  Being a big fish in a crap pond isn't any better than being third in a great pond.


----------



## southernindianaballer

For the record.... the master plan for ISU states that building a new football stadium can improve the program and offer an important culture building opportunity for students, staff, faculty and alumni.
Also, I have NEVER heard any isu ad, pres, faculty,  etc. make a statement that football was going away.  Never....  so let's be careful about what is insinuated please.  Football at ISU is important... it is supported....  there is a plan for it in place...
We have a high quality coaching staff and some great players ready for another awesome year.


----------



## southernindianaballer

*mvc*

I love the mvc.  It is powerful.  Really good schools...  but really good schools in really remote locations.... for the most part.... that's the issue I have with the mvc.  Why not bring travel costs down and play in markets that make sense to the ISU marketing scheme for academics and athletic recruiting?   Really??  Athletic scheduled/competition are free marketing (well really not free... but a specific check isn't being written directly for it) and you can't tell me that Iowa, Dakotas, Kansas are important to our model.  Now if you said we are going to St. Louis, Nashville, KY, TN, Atlanta area, Indy, etc on a consistent basis.... Hmmm. That's our marketing region for student athletes and ISU in general.  And I would like to add Cincinnati area if possible...   just my thoughts.  The OVC is a good conference and ISU makes it better.... if you guys think SIU isn't considering it you need a brain transplant. Lol. Just a sarcastic jab there. Lol. .. look where they are and the schools near St. Louis.  SIU is a fit for more than one reason too.


----------



## 4Q_iu

IndyTreeFan said:


> Nice thought, never gonna happen.  Now, it's just my opinion (don't want to piss off 4Q again), ok, maybe a bit more than that, but cutting football would only result in the closing of a budget deficit.  And that would only be done if the BOT decided that the deficit is unsustainable.  In that light, there would be no money for other sports, simply because they were borrowing that money already, and they're not going to continue doing that for women's basketball, and politics will keep them from doing it for men's basketball.  So, funding for other sports wouldn't change, and we'd be no better off than we are now, except that we're spending less money.
> 
> Have fun being the "big fish in a smaller pond."  I'd be totally done with ISU if they did that.  Being a big fish in a crap pond isn't any better than being third in a great pond.




Per College-Sports.pointafter...    We (ISU) spend $3.6M on all athletics; $500K the football team alone, is that correct?  No idea, the website points at the Equity in Athletics Data Analysis Cutting Tool as the source.

Does that $500K account for the 'funded' 63 scholies?  Or is it travel, salaries, equipment alone?

I DO know that if a school shutters a football team, it CAN begin 3-4 OTHER men's teams for LESS money.

I DO know that Dr Bradley and Ron Prettyman are FANS of college football, I've heard it from both personally but the fact remains, there are changes at the NCAA "power 5" level that can, may, will affect schools like us.  Will we be able to weather those changes?  THAT is the great unknown.

http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/

http://college-sports.pointafter.com/l/4327/Indiana-State-University-Football


----------



## 4Q_iu

southernindianaballer said:


> I love the mvc.  It is powerful.  Really good schools...  but really good schools in really remote locations.... for the most part.... that's the issue I have with the mvc.  Why not bring travel costs down and play in markets that make sense to the ISU marketing scheme for academics and athletic recruiting?   Really??  Athletic scheduled/competition are free marketing (well really not free... but a specific check isn't being written directly for it) and you can't tell me that Iowa, Dakotas, Kansas are important to our model.  Now if you said we are going to St. Louis, Nashville, KY, TN, Atlanta area, Indy, etc on a consistent basis.... Hmmm. That's our marketing region for student athletes and ISU in general.  And I would like to add Cincinnati area if possible...   just my thoughts.  The OVC is a good conference and ISU makes it better.... if you guys think SIU isn't considering it you need a brain transplant. Lol. Just a sarcastic jab there. Lol. .. look where they are and the schools near St. Louis.  SIU is a fit for more than one reason too.



You can keep arguing the 'geographics' of the MVC as negatives and the 'geographics' of the OVC as positives...

Here's the reality.

Virtually NO ONE in St. Louis, Nashville, KY, TN, Atlanta-area gives two hoots about the OVC schools EXCEPT the PASSIONATE alumni- fan-bases of the OVC schools in those areas AND I would argue, they likely suffer the same "indignities" that many MVC schools suffer...   current, past, future students wearing $EC gear on OVC campuses.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> Per College-Sports.pointafter...    We (ISU) spend $3.6M on all athletics; $500K the football team alone, is that correct?  No idea, the website points at the Equity in Athletics Data Analysis Cutting Tool as the source.
> 
> Does that $500K account for the 'funded' 63 scholies?  Or is it travel, salaries, equipment alone?
> 
> I DO know that if a school shutters a football team, it CAN begin 3-4 OTHER men's teams for LESS money.
> 
> I DO know that Dr Bradley and Ron Prettyman are FANS of college football, I've heard it from both personally but the fact remains, there are changes at the NCAA "power 5" level that can, may, will affect schools like us.  Will we be able to weather those changes?  THAT is the great unknown.
> 
> http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/
> 
> http://college-sports.pointafter.com/l/4327/Indiana-State-University-Football



Believe that is how much we spend on football. We spend $12m+ total. See post #48.

EDIT: We're north of $13m per the most recent data on ope.ed.gov. So our spending has gone up again.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Nice thought, never gonna happen.  Now, it's just my opinion (don't want to piss off 4Q again), ok, maybe a bit more than that, but cutting football would only result in the closing of a budget deficit.  And that would only be done if the BOT decided that the deficit is unsustainable.  In that light, there would be no money for other sports, simply because they were borrowing that money already, and they're not going to continue doing that for women's basketball, and politics will keep them from doing it for men's basketball.  So, funding for other sports wouldn't change, and we'd be no better off than we are now, except that we're spending less money.
> 
> Have fun being the "big fish in a smaller pond."  I'd be totally done with ISU if they did that.  Being a big fish in a crap pond isn't any better than being third in a great pond.



So you're okay with being a small fish in a slightly larger than small pond?

Outside of Valley fans, nobody gives a shit about the Valley, either. There is no "prestige" with the Valley. I wish there were but it is a figment of our imagination. You have to win 30 games in the Valley to get an at-large bid. This isn't the 90s anymore... you know every rule benefits the P5 so I'd rather set us up for potential success.


----------



## southernindianaballer

4Q_iu said:


> You can keep arguing the 'geographics' of the MVC as negatives and the 'geographics' of the OVC as positives...
> 
> Here's the reality.
> 
> Virtually NO ONE in St. Louis, Nashville, KY, TN, Atlanta-area gives two hoots about the OVC schools EXCEPT the PASSIONATE alumni- fan-bases of the OVC schools in those areas AND I would argue, they likely suffer the same "indignities" that many MVC schools suffer...   current, past, future students wearing $EC gear on OVC campuses.



Oh - I agree with you and we will never be a Big Ten or SEC school... so we deal with what we have... Knowing that... I just think financially, geographically, market-wise, school match-wise, that the OVC is a fit.... I'm not saying the MVC isn't a fit...  But, IMHO, I like OVC better... If I were in charge of finances, athletics, marketing, student recruitment, alumni base - why would I not look at the OVC?  Man... IF the OVC had an Indy & Cinci area institution... wow!


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> So you're okay with being a small fish in a slightly larger than small pond?
> 
> Outside of Valley fans, nobody gives a shit about the Valley, either. There is no "prestige" with the Valley. I wish there were but it is a figment of our imagination. You have to win 30 games in the Valley to get an at-large bid. This isn't the 90s anymore... you know every rule benefits the P5 so I'd rather set us up for potential success.



You are correct about all rules benefitting the P5.  I still would look at a move to the OVC as such a huge step down that I'd be done with ISU.  I give them enough of my money already, they wouldn't be getting any more.

Now, if we could start a new conference from scratch, one that actually made sense for us both from a competitive and geographic standpoint, I'd be all for looking into that.  But I am not driving to Terre Haute 13 or 14 times a year to watch us play SIUE and SEMO.  So, I'll just go full time ND fan...

But this is all moot.  We're staying in the MVC until something truly earth shattering happens...


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Jason Svoboda said:


> Believe that is how much we spend on football. We spend $12m+ total. See post #48.
> 
> EDIT: We're north of $13m per the most recent data on ope.ed.gov. So our spending has gone up again.



EDIT: Looks like we're just under $14m for the 2014 numbers.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/1683662-ind-st-ncaa-financial-report-final-13-14.html


----------



## ISUCC

nwi stater said:


> Gee, would we be having this discussion if we would have won a couple games?



I think we would, conference realignment affects everyone eventually, it's a good discussion.


----------



## ISUCC

today's Star talks about our spending, and other D-I Schools in Indiana spending

http://www.indystar.com/story/sport...diana-state-ncaa-finances-tom-crean/24662029/


----------



## IndyTreeFan

ISUCC said:


> today's Star talks about our spending, and other D-I Schools in Indiana spending
> 
> http://www.indystar.com/story/sport...diana-state-ncaa-finances-tom-crean/24662029/



That link shows our football expenses at $3.6M.  A bit bigger than $500,000.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Latest report... via indystar

http://www.indystar.com/story/sport...diana-state-ncaa-finances-tom-crean/24662029/


----------



## southernindianaballer

I agree with Jason on trying to keep like schools and football together to form a conference.   I would likely sacrifice the football requirement for key markets...  I would like to be strong in St. Louis, Indy, and Nashville.  If we can touch Cinci that's good too...  so here is my "dream" alignment conference... It combines the Ohio Valley, Tenn Valley, Mo Valley, and you guessed it Wabash Valley to form the BIG Valley (BIGV) with 18 teams.  LOL  OK - let me put down the crack pipe... LOL  It has nice rivalries and rekindles ones they need rekindled...  It's BIG so I assume it gets split or teams play one time in basketball, etc.  Football has an issue - too many football teams so a couple don't play each other every season.   I think the bigegst conference to date has 15 teams - so this would actually earn it's name as BIGV.  This is better than the MVC IMHO.  18 teams in a tight geographic circle and very KEY markets.  So here is the BIGV.

1 Indiana State University
2 St. Louis
3 Butler
4 IUPUI
5 Southern Illinois
6 Murray State University
7 Eastern Illinois
8 Eastern Kentucky
9 Belmont
10 SIUE
11 SEMO
12 NKU
13 Tenn Tech
14 Illinois State
15 UTChat
16 UE
17 APSU
18 UT Martin

Football
1 Indiana State University
2 Butler (Indy market and rival)
3 Southern Illinois (rival)
4 Murray State
5 Eastern Illinois
6 Eastern Kentucky
7 SEMO
8 Tenn Tech
9 Illinois State
10 UTChat
11 APSU
12 UT Martin


No Football
1 IUPUI (taps into Indy market and potential geographic rival)
2 Belmont (taps into Nashville market and WOULD be rival)
3 NKU (taps into Cinci market)
4 UE (questionable... but rival)
5 St. Louis (taps into St. Louis market and gives them strong geographic rivals)
6 SIUE (also taps into St. Louis)

Indy (2 schools)
Cinci (1 school) Eastern KY decently close also
Nashville (2 schools)
St. Louis (2 schools)
Chat (1 school)
"I" think these are important markets for recruiting students and athletes in addition to alumni events.  Remember it's a win/win for all schools... alumni events at games in key cities for all.  Recruiting in key cities for all.
Please note - several of these football schools where playoff bound last year.  Pretty strong.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

There is no point even mentioning a MAC or Big East school in your dream conference scenario. They're not going to give up BCS payout split (in terms of MAC) or NCAA tourney shares (in terms of Big East) for example.


----------



## southernindianaballer

I think Butler can be worth mentioning....  I mean - I don't think their move is working as well as they hoped.. if a new alignment is formed where they have geographic rivalries and a few like schools...  who knows.... But I think St. Louis, Butler, Belmont, UE are like school privates and can be a nice private rivalry scenerio within a BIGV - they can create their own little rivalry gig within the BIGV.  and i Know you want football schools in your dream.  LOL  understand why too...  Butler isn't a BCS school or any Big East - right?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

southernindianaballer said:


> I think Butler can be worth mentioning....  I mean - I don't think their move is working as well as they hoped.. if a new alignment is formed where they have geographic rivalries and a few like schools...  who knows.... But I think St. Louis, Butler, Belmont, UE are like school privates and can be a nice private rivalry scenerio within a BIGV - they can create their own little rivalry gig within the BIGV.  and i Know you want football schools in your dream.  LOL  understand why too...



The Big East visibility is worth a truckload to them to be considered amongst those other academic institutions. Even without the visibility, like I said, no way they would leave that Big East media deal and NCAA tournament share. Even if they aren't very good, they're on ESPN and attracting top talent because they're in the storied Big East. 

For more information on tournament shares, read this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissm...gle-ncaa-tournament-win-is-worth-1-6-million/

Media deal worth reported $500m over 12 years (equates to $4m per year per school): http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...r-butler-creighton-signs-tv-contract/2002227/


----------



## southernindianaballer

Jason Svoboda said:


> The Big East visibility is worth a truckload to them to be considered amongst those other academic institutions. Even without the visibility, like I said, no way they would leave that Big East media deal and NCAA tournament share. Even if they aren't very good, they're on ESPN and attracting top talent because they're in the storied Big East.
> 
> For more information on tournament shares, read this: http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissm...gle-ncaa-tournament-win-is-worth-1-6-million/
> 
> Media deal worth reported $500m over 12 years (equates to $4m per year per school): http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...r-butler-creighton-signs-tv-contract/2002227/



Curious...  What kinda TV deal do you think a BIGV conference could muster?  Anything at all?  It would have St. Louis, Butler, Belmont, Murray, and ISU?  Don't forget TV markets in Indy, St. Louis, Nashville, Chat, & Cinci.  Key audience areas help?  Better deal than the MVC can create?


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> There is no point even mentioning a MAC or Big East school in your dream conference scenario. They're not going to give up BCS payout split (in terms of MAC) or NCAA tourney shares (in terms of Big East) for example.



Jason, how can you be sure that those "tweeners," the schools that our NOT in the "Power 5" but are currently classified FBS (i.e MAC, Sun Belt) are going to continue that payout split? The Power 5 certainly will not want to pay them and until the NCAA makes a FINAL decision on how this is going to play out, I totally disagree that they all will continue at what's left of non-Power football without taking a look at the final plans. You are probably right but unless you know something I don't, it hasn't been decided yet. 

It's the same scenario with many of the FCS schools because nothing has been decided on at their level either.


----------



## southernindianaballer

*Realignment dream*

Just saying... if a realignment ever were to happen.... it could be BIG and could be better.  If people were to come together for the good of all  -  A very nice conference can be built.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bally #47 said:


> Jason, how can you be sure that those "tweeners," the schools that our NOT in the "Power 5" but are currently classified FBS (i.e MAC, Sun Belt) are going to continue that payout split? The Power 5 certainly will not want to pay them and until the NCAA makes a FINAL decision on how this is going to play out, I totally disagree that they all will continue without taking a look at the final plans. You are probably right but if you know something I don't, it hasn't been decided yet.
> 
> It's the same scenario with many of the FCS schools because nothing has been decided on at their level either.



It's what they agreed to when they ditched the BCS and moved to the CFP at the conclusion of 2013. I believe they signed a 12 year deal so they're set until 2025 at the very least. After that, you're right, maybe the P5 pushes the rest out. Who knows by then.

http://www.collegefootballplayoff.com/revenue-distribution


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> It's what they agreed to when they ditched the BCS and moved to the CFP at the conclusion of 2013. I believe they signed a 12 year deal so they're set until 2025 at the very least. After that, you're right, maybe the P5 pushes the rest out. Who knows by then.
> 
> http://www.collegefootballplayoff.com/revenue-distribution



Thanks for the info. I will dive into that so I know better what I am talking about. I was not aware it was a done deal. Since at least half of the MAC falls short of 1-A "requirements'' do you think the NCAA will continue to look the other way?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bally #47 said:


> Thanks for the info. I will dive into that so I know better what I am talking about. I was not aware it was a done deal. Since at least half of the MAC falls short of 1-A "requirements'' do you think the NCAA will continue to look the other way?



Yeah, I do. The media deals are subsizing poor attendance a bit. With attendance dropping for everyone, I'm going to guess that those requirements eventually go away.


----------



## southernindianaballer

southernindianaballer said:


> I agree with Jason on trying to keep like schools and football together to form a conference.   I would likely sacrifice the football requirement for key markets...  I would like to be strong in St. Louis, Indy, and Nashville.  If we can touch Cinci that's good too...  so here is my "dream" alignment conference... It combines the Ohio Valley, Tenn Valley, Mo Valley, and you guessed it Wabash Valley to form the BIG Valley (BIGV) with 18 teams.  LOL  OK - let me put down the crack pipe... LOL  It has nice rivalries and rekindles ones they need rekindled...  It's BIG so I assume it gets split or teams play one time in basketball, etc.  Football has an issue - too many football teams so a couple don't play each other every season.   I think the bigegst conference to date has 15 teams - so this would actually earn it's name as BIGV.  This is better than the MVC IMHO.  18 teams in a tight geographic circle and very KEY markets.  So here is the BIGV.
> 
> 1 Indiana State University
> 2 St. Louis
> 3 Butler
> 4 IUPUI
> 5 Southern Illinois
> 6 Murray State University
> 7 Eastern Illinois
> 8 Eastern Kentucky
> 9 Belmont
> 10 SIUE
> 11 SEMO
> 12 NKU
> 13 Tenn Tech
> 14 Illinois State
> 15 UTChat
> 16 UE
> 17 APSU
> 18 UT Martin
> 
> Football
> 1 Indiana State University
> 2 Butler (Indy market and rival)
> 3 Southern Illinois (rival)
> 4 Murray State
> 5 Eastern Illinois
> 6 Eastern Kentucky
> 7 SEMO
> 8 Tenn Tech
> 9 Illinois State
> 10 UTChat
> 11 APSU
> 12 UT Martin
> 
> 
> No Football
> 1 IUPUI (taps into Indy market and potential geographic rival)
> 2 Belmont (taps into Nashville market and WOULD be rival)
> 3 NKU (taps into Cinci market)
> 4 UE (questionable... but rival)
> 5 St. Louis (taps into St. Louis market and gives them strong geographic rivals)
> 6 SIUE (also taps into St. Louis)
> 
> Indy (2 schools)
> Cinci (1 school) Eastern KY decently close also
> Nashville (2 schools)
> St. Louis (2 schools)
> Chat (1 school)
> "I" think these are important markets for recruiting students and athletes in addition to alumni events.  Remember it's a win/win for all schools... alumni events at games in key cities for all.  Recruiting in key cities for all.
> Please note - several of these football schools where playoff bound last year.  Pretty strong.



I would also have the option for privates and publics to create their own seasonal conference championship.  Only good for recognition but good for excitement and more TV.  There would be seasonal championships for public,  private, and overall.  In addition there would be the conference tournaments.   Football would only have overall winner.  It's BIG.


----------



## 4Q_iu

southernindianaballer said:


> I think Butler can be worth mentioning....  I mean - I don't think their move is working as well as they hoped.. if a new alignment is formed where they have geographic rivalries and a few like schools...  who knows.... But I think St. Louis, Butler, Belmont, UE are like school privates and can be a nice private rivalry scenerio within a BIGV - they can create their own little rivalry gig within the BIGV.  and i Know you want football schools in your dream.  LOL  understand why too...  Butler isn't a BCS school or any Big East - right?



why don't you think their move as worked as well as they'd hoped?   they've spent 1/2 the season ranked, they beat ncaa 'darling' unc... they lost to iu but frankly, they're a better team than the loosiers...

I doubt they're really upset at leaving the ATL-10 (14)


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> why don't you think their move as worked as well as they'd hoped?   they've spent 1/2 the season ranked, they beat ncaa 'darling' unc... they lost to iu but frankly, they're a better team than the loosiers...
> 
> I doubt they're really upset at leaving the ATL-10 (14)



All the while making $6-10m+ more per year in revenues because of this move.


----------



## southernindianaballer

Jason Svoboda said:


> All the while making $6-10m+ more per year in revenues because of this move.



Butler has always beat quality teams throughout their regular season or least they have the last 8 years or so.  UNC is not my darling. But I digress.  How many sports does Butler have in the Big east?  How many bus trips do they have vs flights?  Just saying that revenue you guys speak of might not be going very far.  If the BIGs are struggling with athletic expenses I'm sure they are too.  Look at the travel issues.  At least IU has bus trips for several conference games.


----------



## southernindianaballer

If St. Louis and Dayton join MVC and then our football only schools come on board with all sports..... hmmmm all is good.  An east and west mvc.


----------



## 4Q_iu

southernindianaballer said:


> If St. Louis and Dayton join MVC and then our football only schools come on board with all sports..... hmmmm all is good.  An east and west mvc.



So you want a MVC that is current membership, plus Dayton, St Louis, the 3 Dakota schools, Youngstown City College and Western Illinois...

Recommend you read the history of the current WAC from ~1962 thru today...

The 'ideal' size for a conference is ~10-12; anything larger and the span of control becomes ridiculous.  The MBB, WBB, baseball and football schedules should be double round-robin/round-robin.


----------



## niklz62

dang, it took me a long time to catch up with this thread.  I didnt have time to look, but how much does our school make off of the MVC payout for the NCAA tournament?

I have a lot of other stuff but I dont have time to write a worthwhile post


----------



## Jason Svoboda

niklz62 said:


> dang, it took me a long time to catch up with this thread.  I didnt have time to look, but how much does our school make off of the MVC payout for the NCAA tournament?
> 
> I have a lot of other stuff but I dont have time to write a worthwhile post



Depends. 

I believe they calculate shares based on a 4 year window and how many games are won during that period.


----------



## southernindianaballer

4Q_iu said:


> So you want a MVC that is current membership, plus Dayton, St Louis, the 3 Dakota schools, Youngstown City College and Western Illinois...
> 
> Recommend you read the history of the current WAC from ~1962 thru today...
> 
> The 'ideal' size for a conference is ~10-12; anything larger and the span of control becomes ridiculous.  The MBB, WBB, baseball and football schedules should be double round-robin/round-robin.



Ya - I know... 10-12 schools is the target... just saying... it was mentioned on here that the mvfc schools that participate only in football should come in with all sports... and logically that could happen at some point...  If it does, then the MVC needs to split in to two divisions... and let's think about adding St. Louis and Dayton at that point.  Again, it wouldn't be perfect, but that would limit our travel expenses to the West and Northwest.
I was hoping someone would take my 18 schools and whittle it down to their best 12....  there are several quality schools in this valley region within 300 miles of TH...


----------



## southernindianaballer

I don't  know a lot about the NCAA, conference creation, budgets, TV deals, the Big5 issues... etc.  I think I know just enough though to ask the right questions...  I know some of you guys know much more than I do....
What do you think a conference with schools in major markets like Indy, St. Louis, Nashville, and Cinci could garner from a TV deal?  I know the “school” has something to do with it – but understand the geographic market might too...  Would it be better than what the MVC can get?  And.... you can guess the potential schools in each of those markets...  Ideally...  a TV package with schools in a tight geographic circle of 300 miles is what one would want, right?  That way the TV revenue isn't gobbled up by travel expenses....sooo...  What do you think a conference with schools in major markets like Indy, St. Louis, Nashville, and Cinci could garner from a TV deal?

I just really like schools in those markets because ISU can have "real" alumni events there and fans are more likely to attend for weekend getaways - fun cities...  Not to mention it's our region for recruiting students and athletes.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

southernindianaballer said:


> I don't  know a lot about the NCAA, conference creation, budgets, TV deals, the Big5 issues... etc.  I think I know just enough though to ask the right questions...  I know some of you guys know much more than I do....
> What do you think a conference with schools in major markets like Indy, St. Louis, Nashville, and Cinci could garner from a TV deal?  I know the “school” has something to do with it – but understand the geographic market might too...  Would it be better than what the MVC can get?  And.... you can guess the potential schools in each of those markets...  Ideally...  a TV package with schools in a tight geographic circle of 300 miles is what one would want, right?  That way the TV revenue isn't gobbled up by travel expenses....sooo...  What do you think a conference with schools in major markets like Indy, St. Louis, Nashville, and Cinci could garner from a TV deal?
> 
> I just really like schools in those markets because ISU can have "real" alumni events there and fans are more likely to attend for weekend getaways - fun cities...  Not to mention it's our region for recruiting students and athletes.



Why would schools in those markets forming a new conference want us? You've got to be realistic.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Here's my two cents on this (again- the same as it was last year).  Why don't we just be happy where we are, and why doesn't ISU get off its collective ass and do a better job of marketing, fundraising, and selling its product?  Do you think anyone in Terre Haute feels like ISU is "Terre Haute's Team?"  Why not?  There's money there, fellas.  ISU just is too inept to go get it...


----------



## southernindianaballer

Jason Svoboda said:


> Why would schools in those markets forming a new conference want us? You've got to be realistic.



Why wouldn't they want ISU?  ISU has a good product, strong history, quality school, quality facilities (aside from football).  Our market is small, but it's the combination of schools (and unique qualities) and geography that can define the conference product as good or bad.  Nashville has a few like schools similar to ISU and geography is reasonable, right?  Indy has IUPUI and Butler, right?  St. Louis has St. Louis and SIUE, right?  Cinci has NKU and Dayton just north, right?  What specifically stands out to keep these schools from collaborating and coming together?  What isn't realistic?  The MVC is good - but the question posed was if we could put together our own conference who would we choose?  So I was just curious if those regions and schools would warrant a decent TV deal if they were ever to come together?  That's all....


----------



## niklz62

I was told buy a guy that was a coach at EIU at the time then in the Athletic Dept at EIU, that when EIU went from the Gateway to the OVC, they had to go all sports.  Im taking it with a grain of salt, just because.   he said he was mad that they had let schools in in sports other than football after that.

The move worked out great for them.  they were in the Mid-Continent for all other sports at the time.


----------



## 4Q_iu

southernindianaballer said:


> Why wouldn't they want ISU?  ISU has a good product, strong history, quality school, quality facilities (aside from football).  Our market is small, but it's the combination of schools (and unique qualities) and geography that can define the conference product as good or bad.  Nashville has a few like schools similar to ISU and geography is reasonable, right?  Indy has IUPUI and Butler, right?  St. Louis has St. Louis and SIUE, right?  Cinci has NKU and Dayton just north, right?  What specifically stands out to keep these schools from collaborating and coming together?  What isn't realistic?  The MVC is good - but the question posed was if we could put together our own conference who would we choose?  So I was just curious if those regions and schools would warrant a decent TV deal if they were ever to come together?  That's all....



For starters...   will this "perfect" conference be centered on football or basketball?  Because with all of the schools you're dreaming about joining... it's a either / or type of scenario.

And if you think you'll have a 'super-conference' of 18; 9 football and 9 basketball... why?  Why wouldn't that 'super-conf' simply break into a 9 member football centered conf and a 9 member basketball centered conf...    you know... kinda like the way things are today.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

niklz62 said:


> I was told buy a guy that was a coach at EIU at the time then in the Athletic Dept at EIU, that when EIU went from the Gateway to the OVC, they had to go all sports.  Im taking it with a grain of salt, just because.   he said he was mad that they had let schools in in sports other than football after that.
> 
> The move worked out great for them.  they were in the Mid-Continent for all other sports at the time.



Yeah, I'd be majorly pissed if I were them about that.


----------



## niklz62

I had looked up all the schools in the MVFC and their sizes and the population of the county they were in and maybe the city population.  When you take that into account we look a lot more like WIU than a lot of the other schools.  If the OVC was all sports I think we would fit in good. I like being in the MVFC so I can talk trash about conferences with my EIU friends but if they were going to consider dumping football, I think they should consider changing conferences first.  I would point to all the schools who dumped football and are now back playing bigger than ever and all the schools adding football.  There is some good info and quotes about ETSU dropping the bringing back football saying it was the worst decision the school ever made. 

As far as other sports that aren't played indoor, which direction would you rather travel. That's an honest question. Of course that might put them at a disadvantage. I don't know.


----------



## southernindianaballer

4Q_iu said:


> For starters...   will this "perfect" conference be centered on football or basketball?  Because with all of the schools you're dreaming about joining... it's a either / or type of scenario.
> 
> And if you think you'll have a 'super-conference' of 18; 9 football and 9 basketball... why?  Why wouldn't that 'super-conf' simply break into a 9 member football centered conf and a 9 member basketball centered conf...    you know... kinda like the way things are today.



I promise I don't have OCD - I just like talking about conferences and realignment opportunities/dreams...  LOL while having a cold one...
Hey.. I'm just dreaming here... but why be like everyone else?  Isn't there a story or something about the path least followed?  LOL  This is a conference... whatever sport the school has they play in this conference unless the conference does not compete in that sport – like maybe water polo – get it?  With the size of this conference I can't see an advantage for a school to play football in the Southern Conference and basketball in this conference (BIGV).   I think this conference leans to basketball mostly... but other sports look powerful too.
In my dream world.  I would be able to create a TV deal based on key cities, key schools, etc. 

There would be (basketball):
regular season championship scenario
All 18 teams play each other one time.
One “overall” regular season Champion based on head to head with all 18
East  public/private overall Division Regular season Champion – yes – overall and division champs can be the same.
West public/private overall Division Regular season Champion – yes – overall and division champs can be the same.
One Private Regular season champion (based on private head to head)
One Public East Division regular season champion (based on public head to head in division)
One Public West Division regular season champion (based on public head to head in division)
I'm just saying to recognize the best public in each division and the best private...

Conference Tournament Scenario:
East Conference Tournament – winner gets bid
West Conference Tournament – winner gets bid
 (this tournament is BIG in one location 18 teams – big turnout, alternate east and west games until each division winner is determined and then overall championship will be the next day to keep fans in town from all teams)  This is a BIG week long event!
East and West play each other to improve NCAA seeding and for banner.
NCAA agrees to give 2  teams a tourney bid (winner of east & west) because of conference size.  Likely to get 3 teams in NCAA though.

This model keeps schools involved with different ways to bring a regular season championship home to their school.
These are real regular season championships... best of public in west, best of public in east, best of private, best overall (public/private) in east, best overall (public/private) in west, and best overall all teams (the real deal).  These are just chances for a banner... Now it's the conference tournament that matters to keep playing in NCAA.

These championships can increase a teams resume and influence the chance for an NCAA birth.  Also, could create more TV games, more excitement for students and schools.

Trust me – I know it's confusing and many people will say I'm full of it... but hey – this is my dream.  If your not 38-24-36 get out LOL  Just kidding... please tear up my idea.

Football – easy – there are 12 FCS teams.   No big deal here....  I can see some really cool track and field/CC meets.

Potential locations for HQ and conference tourney:  Louisville, KY (KFC Yum Center), Evansville, IN (Ford Center), Terre Haute, IN (New Hulman Convention Center), Nashville, TN (Auditorium or Bridgestone Arena), St. Louis or St. Charles, MO, Indy Fieldhouse.
Let me get another... LOL


----------



## 4Q_iu

southernindianaballer said:


> I promise I don't have OCD - I just like talking about conferences and realignment opportunities/dreams...  LOL while having a cold one...
> Hey.. I'm just dreaming here... but why be like everyone else?  Isn't there a story or something about the path least followed?  LOL  This is a conference... whatever sport the school has they play in this conference unless the conference does not compete in that sport – like maybe water polo – get it?  With the size of this conference I can't see an advantage for a school to play football in the Southern Conference and basketball in this conference (BIGV).   I think this conference leans to basketball mostly... but other sports look powerful too.  In my dream world.  I would be able to create a TV deal based on key cities, key schools, etc.



Yes, you are dreaming and you've had too many cold ones.



southernindianaballer said:


> There would be (basketball):
> regular season championship scenario
> All 18 teams play each other one time.
> One “overall” regular season Champion based on head to head with all 18
> East  public/private overall Division Regular season Champion – yes – overall and division champs can be the same.
> West public/private overall Division Regular season Champion – yes – overall and division champs can be the same.
> One Private Regular season champion (based on private head to head)
> One Public East Division regular season champion (based on public head to head in division)
> One Public West Division regular season champion (based on public head to head in division)
> I'm just saying to recognize the best public in each division and the best private...



this is so convulated, NO ONE, not even the Commish of the Conference would be able to explain it.



southernindianaballer said:


> Conference Tournament Scenario:
> East Conference Tournament – winner gets bid
> West Conference Tournament – winner gets bid
> (this tournament is BIG in one location 18 teams – big turnout, alternate east and west games until each division winner is determined and then overall championship will be the next day to keep fans in town from all teams)  This is a BIG week long event!
> East and West play each other to improve NCAA seeding and for banner.
> NCAA agrees to give 2  teams a tourney bid (winner of east & west) because of conference size.  Likely to get 3 teams in NCAA though.



Seriously, you've HAD too many cold ones... the NCAA will NEVER agree to give any conference 2 auto bids "because of conf size"...



southernindianaballer said:


> This model keeps schools involved with different ways to bring a regular season championship home to their school.
> These are real regular season championships... best of public in west, best of public in east, best of private, best overall (public/private) in east, best overall (public/private) in west, and best overall all teams (the real deal).  These are just chances for a banner... Now it's the conference tournament that matters to keep playing in NCAA.



This is the same F**KED UP "logic" has destroyed Indiana High School basketball... what utter bull**** ----  you MUST be a 'class' basketball fan...



southernindianaballer said:


> ...I can see some really cool track and field/CC meets



Love that we always have good/great T&F and X-Country teams... no one, NO ONE outside of the athletes and their families follow the sport with great passion, simply NOT a revenue sport.   Has it's "groupies" and fans but there are 2 NCAA Sports that truly move the needle... MBB and football.


----------



## niklz62

Since we are on the internet, dreams are feasible.


----------



## nwi stater

Ok here's my dream:
Conf. finishers 1&2=dancers
                     3&4= nit
                     5&6= cbi
                     7&8= cit
                     9&? = enjoy the games on TV

No more conf. tournaments..............How many players get hurt and can't play later........Ask the loosiers and clappy


----------



## southernindianaballer

4Q_iu said:


> Yes, you are dreaming and you've had too many cold ones.
> 
> 
> 
> this is so convulated, NO ONE, not even the Commish of the Conference would be able to explain it.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, you've HAD too many cold ones... the NCAA will NEVER agree to give any conference 2 auto bids "because of conf size"...
> 
> 
> 
> This is the same F**KED UP "logic" has destroyed Indiana High School basketball... what utter bull**** ----  you MUST be a 'class' basketball fan...
> 
> 
> 
> Love that we always have good/great T&F and X-Country teams... no one, NO ONE outside of the athletes and their families follow the sport with great passion, simply NOT a revenue sport.   Has it's "groupies" and fans but there are 2 NCAA Sports that truly move the needle... MBB and football.




Yes... it's a dream... and it's my dream LOL
It's not hard to understand.  Play every team.  Conference banners for Head to Head winners of Overall, East and West Overall, Best East Public, Best West Public, and best private.  Conference tourney is typical... Only difference is to lobby NCAA for East and West conference champion automatics.

If NCAA won't agree to an 18 team east/west conference with each conf tourney champion getting automatic bid, why not?

I'm not a Class basketball fan.... When I played - teamwork meant something and the small schools beat up on the big ones all day because it wasn't optional.  I do believe that giving a team multiple ways to be part of a championship is good.  I was listening to Dan Dakich (Jordan stopper) talk about how much players love to play for championship banners... What competitive player doesn't want to have a shot at a championship.  What student doesn't want their school to have more chances?  This is an 18 team conference!  Regarding the IHSAA - I think the only classes that should exist are public class and private class....  If we do have classes...  Each private gets bumped up 30% automatically in enrollment - push them up to the next class.  

This conference spells out what can't be denied in high school and college scenarios... publics and privates have different playing fields... why deny it...  Give them some inclusion as different types of entities.

Agree about TF and CC being low revenue... It's low revenue for the schools but good for cities...  big teams and multiple teams coming to town.


----------



## 4Q_iu

southernindianaballer said:


> Yes... it's a dream... and it's my dream LOL
> It's not hard to understand.  Play every team.  Conference banners for Head to Head winners of Overall, East and West Overall, Best East Public, Best West Public, and best private.  Conference tourney is typical... Only difference is to lobby NCAA for East and West conference champion automatics.



Again, smacks of the logic behind the destruction of IHSAA basketball.



southernindianaballer said:


> If NCAA won't agree to an 18 team east/west conference with each conf tourney champion getting automatic bid, why not?



If the NCAA wouldn't do it for a conference as old and established as the WAC used to be... why would they do it for a new, never-been-tested conference?

If you HAVEN'T followed the NCAA... you need to understand that they are FOR the 'p5' conferences.

Let's see what the new $EC commish does...   the new guy is coming from a mid-major background... I bet he's wholly p5 in his new job...

***UPDATE***

The new $EC commish is a clone of Mike $lime, I mean $live...   Never mind the $EC will continue as currently, completely absent of any HINT of character, morals or ethics

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...04638/who-is-new-sec-commissioner-greg-sankey


----------



## southernindianaballer

4Q_iu said:


> Again, smacks of the logic behind the destruction of IHSAA basketball.
> 
> 
> 
> If the NCAA wouldn't do it for a conference as old and established as the WAC used to be... why would they do it for a new, never-been-tested conference?
> 
> If you HAVEN'T followed the NCAA... you need to understand that they are FOR the 'p5' conferences.
> 
> Let's see what the new $EC commish does...   the new guy is coming from a mid-major background... I bet he's wholly p5 in his new job...
> 
> ***UPDATE***
> 
> The new $EC commish is a clone of Mike $lime, I mean $live...   Never mind the $EC will continue as currently, completely absent of any HINT of character, morals or ethics
> 
> http://www.cbssports.com/collegefoo...04638/who-is-new-sec-commissioner-greg-sankey



FYI - I would also strongly consider giving the regular conference season winner in east and west the right to "host" their side of the conference tourney.  Opportunity for them to create a bit more revenue and a reward to the students and university - create excitement and fun too.  The final East vs West game played at the home site... of school who won the conference head to head.


----------



## southernindianaballer

Slight modification to my "geographical conference" took out UT Chat (bit too far SE) and replaced with Dayton... target the Cinci/Dayton market...
and we get a basketball conference in very key markets, traditional powers.... Butler, Dayton, Saint Louis, Belmont, Murray, IllSt, IndSt.  This conference is pretty tough in  my opinion...  I think these teams make it intriguing and they would like playing each other.  All things considered... Travel, Markets, TV deals, Rivals - would this be a better conference than the MVC?

Basketball and other sports
West
1 Indiana State University Indy area
2 Eastern Illinois
3 UT Martin
4 Illinois State
5 Southern Illinois
6 Murray State University
7 SLU St. Louis market (private)
8 SIUE St. Louis market
9 SEMO St. Louis area
East
10 Butler Indy market (private)
11 IUPUI Indy market
12 UE (private)
13 Tenn Tech Nashville area
14 Belmont Nashville market (private)
15 APSU
16 Eastern Kentucky Cinci area
17 NKU Cinci/Dayton market
18 Dayton Cinci/Dayton market (private)

Football
1 Indiana State University
2 Butler
3 Southern Illinois
4 Murray State
5 Eastern Illinois
6 Eastern Kentucky
7 SEMO
8 Tenn Tech
9 Illinois State
10 Dayton
11 APSU
12 UT Martin

LOL Could go to 20 by adding Bradley in West and Tenn State in East.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

No thanks. No better situation than we're in now. 

If you move, even for some hypothetical dream conference, it needs to beneficial to us. I'm not interested in joining a conference to be a door mat.


----------



## meistro

I can't believe this is 10 pages long.


----------



## ISUCC

meistro said:


> I can't believe this is 10 pages long.



Most of it is unrelated to the original topic, LOL


----------



## meistro

ISUCC said:


> Most of it is unrelated to the original topic, LOL



exactly


----------



## southernindianaballer

Jason Svoboda said:


> No thanks. No better situation than we're in now.
> 
> If you move, even for some hypothetical dream conference, it needs to beneficial to us. I'm not interested in joining a conference to be a door mat.



Yeah you are right...  we (ISU) could never compete with Butler, Dayton, St. Louis, Belmont, etc....  we would be their door mat... LOL  :smile:  and I better get off this thread!  LOL  It will be 20 pages if I don't stop....


----------



## Jason Svoboda

southernindianaballer said:


> Yeah you are right...  we (ISU) could never compete with Butler, Dayton, St. Louis, Belmont, etc....  we would be their door mat... LOL  :smile:  and I better get off this thread!  LOL  It will be 20 pages if I don't stop....



Compete consistently? We can't. 

Schools that don't field scholarship football programs have millions more they can put into their basketball programs for coaching, recruiting and buying games. If you don't think the financials matter, there is no point in having a discussion.


----------



## southernindianaballer

Jason Svoboda said:


> Compete consistently? We can't.
> 
> Schools that don't field scholarship football programs have millions more they can put into their basketball programs for coaching, recruiting and buying games. If you don't think the financials matter, there is no point in having a discussion.



OK - Got it...  But Butler and Dayton have FCS programs....  St. Louis, Belmont, UE.... I think ISU would compete well with them....  Just my opinion...   Belmont is not a real power but consistently well coached with good system in place.  I don't think they recruit athletic players... they recruit players that are fairly athletic and can "play" as a team.  Belmont buys games... and Dayton?  Financials are VERY important... so I'm learning here...  That's why I like the geographics and leveraging the Ohio Valley area cities.


----------



## southernindianaballer

Quote Originally Posted by Jason Svoboda  View Post
Compete consistently? We can't. 

Schools that don't field scholarship football programs have millions more they can put into their basketball programs for coaching, recruiting and buying games. If you don't think the financials matter, there is no point in having a discussion.



southernindianaballer said:


> OK - Got it...  But Butler and Dayton have FCS programs....  St. Louis, Belmont, UE.... I think ISU would compete well with them....  Just my opinion...   Belmont is not a real power but consistently well coached with good system in place.  I don't think they recruit athletic players... they recruit players that are fairly athletic and can "play" as a team.  Belmont buys games... and Dayton?  Financials are VERY important... so I'm learning here...  That's why I like the geographics and leveraging the Ohio Valley area cities.



and oh man... that Pioneer Football League is a logistical and geographical nightmare and to be FCS?  realignment baby... and why is Morehead in there?


----------



## WOZ

PLEASE, everyone ........let's stop this ridiculous thread!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

WOZ said:


> PLEASE, everyone ........let's stop this ridiculous thread!



If this doesn't interest you, see the door.


----------



## southernindianaballer

Jason Svoboda said:


> If this doesn't interest you, see the door.



So you think Butler and Dayton with FCS football teams and being a geographical fit are not a financial fit?  I'm guessing they are losing all their revenue to extreme travel within their conference for ALL teams fielded.  I know some can say - they are private and their bank has no bottom to it... but I don't think that's true...  SLU has EXTREME travel concerns too...  and when you look at Butler and Dayton's FCS travel - it's outrageous... crazy outrageous.... I mean their accounting executives have to be scratching their heads.  Same for SLU...  You disagree?  I think most MVC and OVC schools compete well with these teams.
And the travel to St. Louis, Cinci/Dayton, Nashville, & Indy is frankly appealing and potentially fun with financial rewards for alumni event building activities, and it's the same market for school recruiting, etc.


----------



## Bally #50

southernindianaballer said:


> So you think Butler and Dayton with FCS football teams and being a geographical fit are not a financial fit?  I'm guessing they are losing all their revenue to extreme travel within their conference for ALL teams fielded.  I know some can say - they are private and their bank has no bottom to it... but I don't think that's true...  SLU has EXTREME travel concerns too...  and when you look at Butler and Dayton's FCS travel - it's outrageous... crazy outrageous.... I mean their accounting executives have to be scratching their heads.  Same for SLU...  You disagree?  I think most MVC and OVC schools compete well with these teams.
> And the travel to St. Louis, Cinci/Dayton, Nashville, & Indy is frankly appealing and potentially fun with financial rewards for alumni event building activities, and it's the same market for school recruiting, etc.



Remember that Butler and Dayton are FCS (non-scholarship) or the so-called 1-AAA. That can make those travel costs a little easier to deal with. It's not like they are "paying" for 63 scholarships at Butler rates!


----------



## southernindianaballer

Bally #47 said:


> Remember that Butler and Dayton are FCS (non-scholarship) or the so-called 1-AAA. That can make those travel costs a little easier to deal with. It's not like they are "paying" for 63 scholarships at Butler rates!



Good point...  I would say...  Private tuition rates are a wash....  For instance...  I student will get grants and scholarships worth 60% of tuition minimum if they are a 3.5+ gpa student, typically...  which are most students who attend privates...  the true cost of those potential football scholarships would not be that great if they were to move to a conference with ISU and others - and are forced to provide scholarships...  In addition to the upgraded football conference, they receive savings in travel expenses.  Would they come out ahead???  hmmmm add up all the athletic teams and their travel requirements within the conference?  I really don't know... I'm guessing significant savings...  Thoughts?  I know Jason has probably ran the numbers before on a different thread somewhere.  LOL


----------



## SycamoreFan317

southernindianaballer said:


> Good point...  I would say...  Private tuition rates are a wash....  For instance...  I student will get grants and scholarships worth 60% of tuition minimum if they are a 3.5+ gpa student, typically...  which are most students who attend privates...  the true cost of those potential football scholarships would not be that great if they were to move to a conference with ISU and others - and are forced to provide scholarships...  In addition to the upgraded football conference, they receive savings in travel expenses.  Would they come out ahead???  hmmmm add up all the athletic teams and their travel requirements within the conference?  I really don't know... I'm guessing significant savings...  Thoughts?  I know Jason has probably ran the numbers before on a different thread somewhere.  LOL



There is no way in hell that Butler will offer football scholarships, basketball is their focus 100%.


----------



## southernindianaballer

SycamoreFan317 said:


> There is no way in hell that Butler will offer football scholarships, basketball is their focus 100%.



Oh, don't get me wrong... I think it's unlikely for Butler to offer football scholarships, too...  But, frankly, isn't hard for anyone to deny (University officials included)  the benefits of a strong conference with a geographical radius of about 350 miles?  Bring in Indy, St. Louis, Cinci, Nashville and mid majors in between?  Strong market, easy logistics, good strong schools... great anchor cities to N, S, E, W.  Great rivalries...  I know Butler and Dayton have nice TV packages but travel has to gobble that up quickly... that tv package is the only way they could move to an East based conference, right?  I think those cities and schools I mention could possibly bring in a nice deal too.  You know... it hasn't happened that often when a realignment brings about the required travel that just happened with some schools...  I think it is hard on the student athlete's too...  Time will tell?


----------



## ISUCC

back on topic here, I don't see either team going to the Horizon League

http://www.allkyhoops.com/2015/03/murray-state-belmont-mentioned-as.html?m=1


----------



## southernindianaballer

ISUCC said:


> back on topic here, I don't see either team going to the Horizon League
> 
> http://www.allkyhoops.com/2015/03/murray-state-belmont-mentioned-as.html?m=1



i agree.  IUPUI, IPFW, and maybe NKU are better fits for the Horizon...  I thought I read an article about NKU potentially starting a football program in a few years - with no football in Horizon that would be a concern.  MSU has football and I can't see Belmont leaving the comfy OVC with their HQ in Nashville.  Now - MSU and Belmont to the MVC seems like a reasonable move... but that's an odd number if UAB moves in - so offer St. Louis to get 14.  IPFW to Horizon IMHO.


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## ISUCC

Yeah, I doubt Murray goes anywhere because they do have football. I don't know if they'd bring football to the MVFC if they came? I doubt they'd be very competitive in the MVFC. 

Will be very interesting to see who the Horizon does add though. Will there be a ripple effect from their poaching or not? 

If UAB does indeed need to find a new conference home, do we add just them, or 2-3 teams (in case Wichita State does get poached?)


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## southernindianaballer

ISUCC said:


> Yeah, I doubt Murray goes anywhere because they do have football. I don't know if they'd bring football to the MVFC if they came? I doubt they'd be very competitive in the MVFC.
> 
> Will be very interesting to see who the Horizon does add though. Will there be a ripple effect from their poaching or not?
> 
> If UAB does indeed need to find a new conference home, do we add just them, or 2-3 teams (in case Wichita State does get poached?)



Not sure - I think that article is a smoke screen or something...  Not much logic to it.  If UAB comes in I would do my best to keep the numbers even... and I know the MVC does not want to look like a thief - stealing teams... but I would let a couple schools know the door is open if they want to chat.  Murray and Belmont come to mind and most think St. Louis isn't reality... but I like them geographically, market wise, and they fit with the MVC private schools.
Not sure about Wichita City - what other conference would they be a fit for?  They are not private, they are not catholic.  Big 12?  No football.  Geographically - you have Wichita City, Denver, ORU, UNI, Drake, NDSU, UMKC, SDSU, USD, WIU, Missouri State, and Creighton.  All that means little though.  Who knows?  I don't see Wichita City going anywhere unless a major realignment happens, do you?


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## ISUCC

this will, of course, NEVER happen, but geographically, Wichita State best fits in the Summit League, LOL


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## sycamorebacker

I have heard more than one say we want an even number.  Why?


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## Jason Svoboda

sycamorebacker said:


> I have heard more than one say we want an even number.  Why?



Scheduling, travel partners, etc.


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## sycamorebacker

Jason Svoboda said:


> Scheduling, travel partners, etc.



I wouldn't think that would make much difference.


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## Jason Svoboda

sycamorebacker said:


> I wouldn't think that would make much difference.



Saving money on travel isn't important for smaller conferences? Odd number for season and conference tournament scheduling? How many conferences sit at an odd number? If it was not much of a difference, it wouldn't be standard operating procedure.


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## southernindianaballer

sycamorebacker said:


> I wouldn't think that would make much difference.



I like an even number when you get close to 12 in a conference because usually at that point an east/west or north/south division point has to be established to help with scheduling.    Hence the even number.


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## ISUCC

Jason Svoboda said:


> Saving money on travel isn't important for smaller conferences? Odd number for season and conference tournament scheduling? How many conferences sit at an odd number? If it was not much of a difference, it wouldn't be standard operating procedure.



it makes a HUGE difference, if you don't think IUPUI and IPFW are dying to get out of the far flung Summit League you're nuts. They have to fly all their sports teams all over the country to competitions, imagine the $$ they would save on travel if they were in the Horizon. Horizon League would be all bus trips


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## southernindianaballer

ISUCC said:


> it makes a HUGE difference, if you don't think IUPUI and IPFW are dying to get out of the far flung Summit League you're nuts. They have to fly all their sports teams all over the country to competitions, imagine the $$ they would save on travel if they were in the Horizon. Horizon League would be all bus trips



To add....  look at St Louis, Dayton and Butler.  All sports teams basically going 600+ miles for almost all games.  They totally screw the student athlete.  What a burden for the players.. really it is.  But it's about money.  Increase the burden on the players and make more money.  So much for Christian based schools doing what's right.  LOL


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## southernindianaballer

ISUCC said:


> this will, of course, NEVER happen, but geographically, Wichita State best fits in the Summit League, LOL



The MVFC has the same issues as the Summit (basketball and other sports).  Crazy stuff.  LOL


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## sycamorebacker

I don't like the divisions.  I like a double round robin so you have a true champion.  

But I guess if conferences need to be big, it's a necessary evil.


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## sycamorebacker

Jason Svoboda said:


> Saving money on travel isn't important for smaller conferences? Odd number for season and conference tournament scheduling? How many conferences sit at an odd number? If it was not much of a difference, it wouldn't be standard operating procedure.



Are you saying if we went to 12, we would have divisions?


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## southernindianaballer

sycamorebacker said:


> I don't like the divisions.  I like a double round robin so you have a true champion.
> 
> But I guess if conferences need to be big, it's a necessary evil.



Well... my original thought was based on the article that was posted.  It mentioned Murray and Belmont leaving the OVC.  I was thinking if UAB comes in and then Murray and Belmont then we need another team (St. Louis) to make 14 and split the conference...  13 is too many - that would be 26 conference games with home/away schedules.  Of course this is just all talk and dreams...


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## TreeTop

I'm enjoying this conversation, but can we please stop referring to Dayton and St. Louis joining the MVC.   They are not leaving the A-10.

But otherwise, carry on...


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## sycamorebacker

southernindianaballer said:


> Well... my original thought was based on the article that was posted.  It mentioned Murray and Belmont leaving the OVC.  I was thinking if UAB comes in and then Murray and Belmont then we need another team (St. Louis) to make 14 and split the conference...  13 is too many - that would be 26 conference games with home/away schedules.  Of course this is just all talk and dreams...



The big 10 hasn't played a double round robin for a long time.  I like our size now, but if it boils down to money to go bigger, like i said, I guess that's ok.


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## 4Q_iu

Ten schools is virtually the perfect number for a conference; MBB and WBB play a 18-game double round-robin conference schedule and ten is an easy bracket to build for the conf tourney, the fewer byes the better.

A double round-robin will normally (9 times out of 10), TRULY decide the legitimate conference champion.

After the conf schedule is built; a school will still have 10-12 non-conference games to play; allowing a 'legit' home ticket package, (14-15 games).

The ONLY reason I can see for the Valley (MVC) to add a school(s), is IF and ONLY IF, the MVC loses a school.


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## Jason Svoboda

Quabachi said:


> I'm enjoying this conversation, but can we please stop referring to Dayton and St. Louis joining the MVC.   They are not leaving the A-10.
> 
> But otherwise, carry on...


In the last couple years the conference has lost Temple, Xavier, Charlotte and Butler and replaced them with VCU, George Mason and Davidson. At what point does being so far away from a majority of the conference become a hindrance, especially since they lost the powers that made it a perennial multi-bid league? Yes, they got 3 bids this year but if the conference keeps diluting, they'll eventually lose the benefit of the doubt on Selection Sunday. 

Since the Big East isn't likely to come knocking on their door anytime soon, realigning geographically in a conference that has had better success recently may make sense to them. When the next A10 media deal comes up, losing those names will be a difference on the bottom line and when the school is subsidizing more of the travel costs, you just never know.


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## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> Ten schools is virtually the perfect number for a conference; MBB and WBB play a 18-game double round-robin conference schedule and ten is an easy bracket to build for the conf tourney, the fewer byes the better.
> 
> A double round-robin will normally (9 times out of 10), TRULY decide the legitimate conference champion.
> 
> After the conf schedule is built; a school will still have 10-12 non-conference games to play; allowing a 'legit' home ticket package, (14-15 games).
> 
> The ONLY reason I can see for the Valley (MVC) to add a school(s), is IF and ONLY IF, the MVC loses a school.



Except the conferences don't really care about that. 

The bottom line is that there is significant power in numbers, especially when the primary objective for conference commissioners these days is to land bigger media deals for your member institutions. Additionally, the more members your conference has, the greater the odds you have for more bids into the NCAA tournament which means more tournament shares which means more money.


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## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> Except the conferences don't really care about that.
> 
> The bottom line is that there is significant power in numbers, especially when the primary objective for conference commissioners these days is to land bigger media deals for your member institutions. Additionally, the more members your conference has, the greater the odds you have for more bids into the NCAA tournament which means more tournament shares which means more money.



Agree Boda --- HOWEVER, I still use the 'original WAC' as the example here...

_The charter members of the Mtn West included the U.S. Air Force Academy (Air Force), Brigham Young University (BYU), Colorado State University, San Diego State University, the University of New Mexico, the University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV), the University of Utah, and the University of Wyoming. 

Before forming the Mountain West Conference, 7 of its 8 charter members had been longtime members of the Western Athletic Conference (WAC). Half of these had been charter members of that conference from 1962._

The WAC went from 9 member in 1989-90 to 16 members by 1996-97; by 1998-99, the WAC was a shell, the biggest/'best' schools broke away and formed the Mtn West.

The MTN West carries the same 'weight' & prestige as the old WAC... the WAC today is, to be fair, struggling to find its way.


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## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> Agree Boda --- HOWEVER, I still use the 'original WAC' as the example here...
> 
> _The charter members of the Mtn West included the U.S. Air Force Academy (Air Force), Brigham Young University (BYU), Colorado State University, San Diego State University, the University of New Mexico, the University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV), the University of Utah, and the University of Wyoming.
> 
> Before forming the Mountain West Conference, 7 of its 8 charter members had been longtime members of the Western Athletic Conference (WAC). Half of these had been charter members of that conference from 1962._
> 
> The WAC went from 9 member in 1989-90 to 16 members by 1996-97; by 1998-99, the WAC was a shell, the biggest/'best' schools broke away and formed the Mtn West.
> 
> The MTN West carries the same 'weight' & prestige as the old WAC... the WAC today is, to be fair, struggling to find its way.



My only counterpoint is that the college landscape has changed dramatically since 1999. Also, the Mountain West has been trying to get additional members but hasn't been able to find takers.


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## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> My only counterpoint is that the college landscape has changed dramatically since 1999. Also, the Mountain West has been trying to get additional members but hasn't been able to find takers.



Agree --- unfortunately; 98.999 of all Div I conference re-alignments have been BCS football driven.


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## BrokerZ

Jason Svoboda said:


> Except the conferences don't really care about that.
> 
> The bottom line is that there is significant power in numbers, especially when the primary objective for conference commissioners these days is to land bigger media deals for your member institutions. Additionally, the more members your conference has, the greater the odds you have for more bids into the NCAA tournament which means more tournament shares which means more money.



That only means more money if you actually get more bids.  If we move to 12 schools but still only get 2 bids like we did this year, that means less money.  That's why the Big 12 loves having only 10 schools.  They still get half the members in the tournament and there are less hands in the cookie jar when it comes to splitting up the money.  Same with their TV deal - it only has to be split 10 ways.


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## Jason Svoboda

BrokerZ said:


> That only means more money if you actually get more bids.  If we move to 12 schools but still only get 2 bids like we did this year, that means less money.  That's why the Big 12 loves having only 10 schools.  They still get half the members in the tournament and there are less hands in the cookie jar when it comes to splitting up the money.  Same with their TV deal - it only has to be split 10 ways.



Yes and no. In terms of the NCAA tournament, yes. However, in terms of media deals, if you're in additional media markets, especially big ones, it could easily trump the other.


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## BlueSycamore

Timely article today

http://frankthetank.me/2015/03/25/u...east-wichita-state-uab-mvc-and-down-the-line/


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## ISUCC

and from Mike Reis, the SIU radio broadcaster

Couple of facts for the discussion, boys: MVC talked to Belmont about joining when Creighton left. Belmont said no. You have to commit to fully funding ALL your sports schollie-wise in the MVC. That's big $. Not sure about OVC commitment. They also didn't want to move just one year after leaving the Atlantic Sun. Things could be different now, I don't know. I.E.: When UNI joined the MVC, it offered just 2 BSB schollies. MVC teams offer 11.7. They got crushed till they upped the commitment, which took several years. 

MVC was uneasy about ORU financially. Apparently the school has some issues. Even the schools on that side of the MVC weren't interested in them last time.
I'm told MVC talked to Dayton when CU left, but admins at private schools like Dayton, SLU, Creighton, etc. want to go East with their athletic programs now if they can because there are more students available there to recruit with their athletic profile than there are in the Midwest.

MVC has been anti-divisions to this point. That is, if there are going to be 11 or 12 teams in the league, they will all be together and play each other twice. No East and West Divisions. 

MVC presidents are picky about academic profile. All current schools have rated research programs. Dayton does. Belmont does. Butler. Western Ky does not. Murray? I don't know. All current schools are pretty similar academically. But academic harmony matters when you try to get 10 college presidents to make athletic decisions. 

$ matters. Every school added means one less share of TV and NCAA Tourney money for each school. More schools divvying up the pie. That's about $30,000 per school added. So any school added now has to bring $ with it. That's usually in the form of NCAA Tourney appearances from their previous conference but, in Loyola's case, it was additional sponsorship $ from the Chicago TV market.

Any of this could change at any time. Wouldn't surprise me if it did.


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## southernindianaballer

Good post ISUCC....  I will add - many mistakes in the business world are that of underestimation...  I hope the MVC does not underestimate the potential value and win/wins available in this midwest market.  Anchor cities of Indy, St, Louis, Cinci, & Nashville bring a lot to the table for everyone.


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## bent20

I'm not sure how much the big markets matter unless you get a team that a lot of people there follow. Do that many people in Chicago really give a damn about Loyola? Even if they do, it has the smallest gym in the MVC.

As for Belmont, I'm sure they're biding their time until they can make a more substantial jump. Probably waiting for the Big Priest to expand.


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## Jason Svoboda

bent20 said:


> I'm not sure how much the big markets matter unless you get a team that a lot of people there follow. Do that many people in Chicago really give a damn about Loyola? Even if they do, it has the smallest gym in the MVC.
> 
> As for Belmont, I'm sure they're biding their time until they can make a more substantial jump. Probably waiting for the Big Priest to expand.



I think there is a lot more to the equation aside form attendance and/or fan support. 

As for Belmont, they'd be like 6-8 teams down the list with any Big East expansion I'd think.


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## ISUCC

yeah, Belmont is never going to the Big East, best case scenario for them is the MVC and I just don't see it happening this go around. 

Denver hasn't been thrown into the talks much, that is an easy place to get to for most MVC teams. It wouldn't be too bad for Indiana State, the only sports Denver sponsors that we also sponsor are mens and women basketball, women's soccer, and volleyball. That's a direct flight from Indy to Denver if I'm not mistaken. 

They and ORU would be long shots. Some people also mentioned New Mexico State, but travel would be a big problem there. Nebraska-Omaha is probably too new to D-I sports to be considered for MVC membership, again, not out of the footprint as that's where Creighton was of course. 

I wonder if we will be proactive and act before the Horizon League, or wait to see what they do, then decide if their additions cause us to need to add a team or 2?

Also, if teams are taken from the OVC, does that send Western Illinois to the OVC, that would be a MUCH better fit for them than the league they're in now. They really don't compete in any sports in the Summit right now. A perennial cellar dwellar. And they wouldn't have to fly anywhere anymore.


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## southernindianaballer

Does anyone else on this thread see a potential for 14 teams in the MVC?  UAB is a decent shot... then both Murray and Belmont have to be "open" to a better league and all 3 of those schools, I think, are a pretty good fit.  Belmont matches well with the MVC privates and UAB and Murray fit well with the MVC publics.
If that were to happen, by some strange lining up of the planets and stars - who would be the team to get the MVC to 14?  Does the MVC want 14?  I think if those schools are interested, the answer is YES - because they bring a "value add" and they fit.  Agree or disagree? If you think you might agree - then who is #14?

Also - weaker schools sit out there that have not been discussed... Chicago State, Neb Omaha, UMKC, SEMO, etc.
St. Louis prob not a fit?


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## ISUCC

MVC will never be 14, that we can be sure of. 12 would be the max.


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## southernindianaballer

ISUCC said:


> yeah, Belmont is never going to the Big East, best case scenario for them is the MVC and I just don't see it happening this go around.
> 
> Denver hasn't been thrown into the talks much, that is an easy place to get to for most MVC teams. It wouldn't be too bad for Indiana State, the only sports Denver sponsors that we also sponsor are mens and women basketball, women's soccer, and volleyball. That's a direct flight from Indy to Denver if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> They and ORU would be long shots. Some people also mentioned New Mexico State, but travel would be a big problem there. Nebraska-Omaha is probably too new to D-I sports to be considered for MVC membership, again, not out of the footprint as that's where Creighton was of course.
> 
> I wonder if we will be proactive and act before the Horizon League, or wait to see what they do, then decide if their additions cause us to need to add a team or 2?
> 
> Also, if teams are taken from the OVC, does that send Western Illinois to the OVC, that would be a MUCH better fit for them than the league they're in now. They really don't compete in any sports in the Summit right now. A perennial cellar dwellar. And they wouldn't have to fly anywhere anymore.



Yea... I think Western Illinois has OVC potential and maybe even UMKC.   Who is a better fit for MVC Belmont or Murray or someone else?  Funny....  adding UAB and Belmont and/or Murray changes the dynamics.  The big picture changes, potentially, even for Big East candidates who reside in midwest.  You have UAB, Wichita State, UNI, Murray, Belmont and ISU with recent NCAA runs... and recent success at fairly high levels... you could add Illinois State and any other MVC team who can make an NCAA run in any given year. Aside from Drake.  The conference begins to look more attractive and not just geographically.  Looks like a conference who kicked it up a notch.  Frankly, basketball fans and minds will be intrigued by this conference if that happens...    Does the MVC become more attractive for an upper level school and does it matter?


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## southernindianaballer

Jason Svoboda said:


> I think there is a lot more to the equation aside form attendance and/or fan support.
> 
> As for Belmont, they'd be like 6-8 teams down the list with any Big East expansion I'd think.



Jason, do you have a way to speculate on an MVC conference Power Ranking if UAB, Belmont and/or Murray were added?  That may be an interesting scenario.


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## sycamorebacker

Sagarin has the numbers to calculate a new conference average.  I assume those are just straight, unweighted team averages he uses.

MVC is 74.17
Belmont = 74.55
Murray = 80.91
UAB = 74.66

Their SOS would make their ratings go up playing in the Valley.


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## ISUCC

nothing new here yet, but we should be hearing more news on this soon. All the Horizon League people met this past week I believe I read. 

Guesses on who they add, or if it will be 1 or 3 teams?

if you believe message board posters, then Northern Kentucky seems to be the leading candidate to add to the Horizon. If that happens, then that really doesn't affect too many other conferences. I still think IUPUI and IPFW will be in the mix for possible additions to the HL, there are no other schools that fit more perfectly in the Horizon League than those 2 schools. But we all know they're not the best schools for sports, so they may not make the cut. We'll know soon....


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## ISUCC

Horizon League announces they've selected a 10th member, but won't say who (yet), the new team is within bussing distance to Wright State

http://www.theguardianonline.com/sports/2015/04/24/horizon-league-to-add-10th-team/

I'm guessing Northern Kentucky (from the A-Sun), so this really won't impact the midwestern conferences too much. I would be surprised if it's IUPUI or IPFW, although geographically those 2 are great fits

if it's not NKU it'll be IPFW only because IPFW has baseball, IUPUI does not have baseball. Regardless who it is, Valpo fans aren't too happy because whoever they add will further drag down the conference ranking in the men's basketball RPI


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## ISUCC

worst kept secret out there, it will be NKU to the Horizon, LOL, this won't affect any of the midwestern conferences. Only the A-Sun


BREAKING: Source confirms NKU will be moving to the Horizon League for all sports. Pending board approval Monday.— Joe Danneman (@FOX19Joe) May 9, 2015


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## ISUCC

Horizon league will expand again this week to replace Valpo, per the Indy Star

they officially invited a "mystery" school that has a baseball team that's in the HL footprint. Can you say IPFW? 

Looks like they could transfer for the 17-18 year, then the HL plans to add more teams for the 18-19 year too. 

Interesting. 

I'd say if IPFW goes this year, then IUPUI for SURE goes in 18-19. The Indiana schools do not belong in the Dakota conference.


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## ISUCC

well, so much for IPFW going, it's IUPUI that received the invite and will (More than likely) transition this summer to the Horizon League. Per the Indy Star. Maybe IPFW goes in 2018?


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## Bluethunder

I know out here Wright State fans are pissed.  Wanted a school that at least brought baseball to the league, IUPUI doesn't bring a whole lot in basketball, and brings little outside of that too.  Mainly seems to be about the Indy market.  

Most Horizon fans seem to be "ok" with it, provided that the league expands further in the next year.  If not, they will be really upset with this pick.


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## 4Q_iu

Bluethunder said:


> I know out here Wright State fans are pissed.  Wanted a school that at least brought baseball to the league, IUPUI doesn't bring a whole lot in basketball, and brings little outside of that too.  Mainly seems to be about the Indy market.
> 
> Most Horizon fans seem to be "ok" with it, provided that the league expands further in the next year.  If not, they will be really upset with this pick.




I don't follow the Horizon with any regularity but is Wright State the "power school" in the conference?

Who were the other schools considered?  Belmont?  Murray?  R. Morris?

Given iupui's $$$$, they can afford to start a baseball program, will they?  Would the Horizon "request" it?


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## Jason Svoboda

Bluethunder said:


> I know out here Wright State fans are pissed.  Wanted a school that at least brought baseball to the league, IUPUI doesn't bring a whole lot in basketball, and brings little outside of that too.  Mainly seems to be about the Indy market.
> 
> Most Horizon fans seem to be "ok" with it, provided that the league expands further in the next year.  If not, they will be really upset with this pick.


Definitely about the market.


----------



## Bluethunder

4Q_iu said:


> I don't follow the Horizon with any regularity but is Wright State the "power school" in the conference?
> 
> Who were the other schools considered?  Belmont?  Murray?  R. Morris?
> 
> Given iupui's $$$$, they can afford to start a baseball program, will they?  Would the Horizon "request" it?



I don't know that any of the schools in the Horizon are the Power schools, they are pretty comparable.  I am a Wright State alum along with Indiana State and live in the Wright State area, so I hear a lot more about them than the others.

Most of the Horizon teams (especially Wright State) really wanted a team that brought baseball into the fold, and I think most thought it would be IPFW, but were hoping for something a little more outside the box, like Grand Canyon, or to a lessor extent Robert Morris.  I didn't see anyone on any of the Horizon team message boards that wanted IUPUI, although most admitted that it was one of the most likely teams to be added.

Again, I think IUPUI is ok for them as long as they aren't the only team added.  IF they add two more teams next year, and both have baseball and other sports I think IUPUI would be a lot easier to swallow for other teams' fans.


----------



## ISUCC

IUPUI joining the Horizon this summer, now being reported


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## ISUCC

IPFW to announce move to Horizon League Tuesday


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## tjbison

Word our here is St. Thomas in Minneapolis is looking to join us in the Summit league, big private school in MSP with a large following, wish we could get the league Tournament in Minneapolis not Suck Falls


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## Sycamorefan96

I've been hearing it's going to be Augustana. Regardless I think the MVFC is going to be in trouble within the next 5 to 10 years. I can't see either of the XDSU's being happy long term with the Summit League. It's too bad the MVC isn't smart enough to add both for all sports. My guess is that all 4 Dakota schools will end up in the Big Sky eventually.


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## tjbison

Sycamorefan96 said:


> I've been hearing it's going to be Augustana. Regardless I think the MVFC is going to be in trouble within the next 5 to 10 years. I can't see either of the XDSU's being happy long term with the Summit League. It's too bad the MVC isn't smart enough to add both for all sports. My guess is that all 4 Dakota schools will end up in the Big Sky eventually.



Not a chance on Going to Big Sky, yes your hearing Augy but St. Thomas is a better target as they bring a bunch of Minneapolis exposure, and are dedicated to sports...football would go Non Scholarship to start 

I could see finding another football school and the Summit changing names and becoming an all sport conference in the future, but we will see.

Another scenario is the Montana schools get fed up with the directional schools in the Big Sky and want a change also but Montana runs the sky so that would be desperation


----------

