# Sycamores must beat the Shox...



## Lights Out

If the Sycamores want to get to the MVC Title game they have to win vs Wichita State.  The first tie breaker is head to head match ups. Basically saying if ISU loses to Wichita the Shox would then have to lose to Ill St and Creighton and ISU would have to beat Ill St and SIU to win their pod.  That is the bad news....

The good news is that if ISU beat Wichita in Game 1, they would almost be assured a spot in the Championship Game if they would win one of their final 2 games.  I know their are a lot of if's and but's here. The only difference in being the #1 to #2 seed is that MSU plays Creighton and ISU plays Wichita.  The other two games are the same.  O yeah, and MSU has the regular season trophy!!!  GO GET'EM SYCAMORES!!


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## SycamoreFan317

I would like to see ISU make a bid to move the tourney to Terre Haute. Why should it be in tornado alley every year for? Our new facility will be more than adequate to handle the tournament. What the heck all they can do is say no.


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## ISUCC

if the wind is out of the south tomorrow, look for ALOT of ISU home runs to left field, I don't care who is pitching for WSU, I looked at the Ick on google earth and it's set up nicely for easy HR's with a south wind.


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## bent20

The tournament should be in a neutral location like it is in other sports.


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## 4Q_iu

*How about Busch Stadium?*

Big pie in the Sky but would be great if the MVC could use Busch Stadium to host the baseball tournament; it would require the Cards spend some time on the road; along the same lines as the SA Spurs do annually when the Rodeo arrives in San Antonio

Short of that, the tournament could/should rotate annually


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## TJames

*the mvc tourney has bounced around over the years.....*

primiarily it's been at wee-cheat-um state.....but it's also been at springfield, illinois....the last time that isu went the ncaa tournament in the late 1990s, we won the mvc tourney at the minor league baseball park in springfield, illinois....beat missouri state for the title......

if i remember right, i think we hosted it once back in the late 1980s.....i remember that games were played at sycamore field and at rose-hulman.....

but wheneverthe tourney is played anyplace other than wee-cheatm-um, the shocker folks get all upset and annoyed...as if their go given right to hose the tourney.....lol......


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## Southwind05

TJames said:


> primiarily it's been at wee-cheat-um state.....but it's also been at springfield, illinois....the last time that isu went the ncaa tournament in the late 1990s, we won the mvc tourney at the minor league baseball park in springfield, illinois....beat missouri state for the title......
> 
> if i remember right, i think we hosted it once back in the late 1980s.....i remember that games were played at sycamore field and at rose-hulman.....
> 
> but wheneverthe tourney is played anyplace other than wee-cheatm-um, the shocker folks get all upset and annoyed...as if their go given right to hose the tourney.....lol......



I don't recall Springfield, IL.  I know it's been hosted a few times at Springfield, Missouri at  Hammonds Field which is a minor league park.

I can see it rotating to Indiana State - as long as a bid is put in and it makes money.  That's why it is usually at WSU.  They win, it attracts locals, and they can put in a fairly large bid to host the tournament.  I can also see it being hosted at CU if they build their minor league park.


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## SycEm

bent20 said:


> The tournament should be in a neutral location like it is in other sports.



The only MVC sports that have their tournaments in neutral sites are men's and women's basketball - with women's basketball only getting to that point two seasons ago.


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## Lights Out

The only reason they play in Wichita is because they draw the biggest crowds.  Why else does Wichita get an automatic bid to the tourney?  and play the late game every night?  So they can assure the MVC at least 2-3,000 in attendance.  Until ISU or others prove they can draw equal to or more than Wichita they will continue to host.


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## bent20

Lights Out said:


> The only reason they play in Wichita is because they draw the biggest crowds.  Why else does Wichita get an automatic bid to the tourney?  and play the late game every night?  So they can assure the MVC at least 2-3,000 in attendance.  Until ISU or others prove they can draw equal to or more than Wichita they will continue to host.




And how are you ever going to start drawing that much interest in a sport where one team gets that big of an unfair advantage every season? Why don't we just have the NBA play all of its games in LA from now on? And baseball can play all of its games in Yankee stadium.


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## ISUCC

south wind in Wichita, could help ISU alot tonight

http://forecast.weather.gov/MapClic...CT&textField1=37.6874&textField2=-97.3427&e=1


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## ISUCC

CU dispatches of SIU in game 1 by a 5-1 score, MSU and Illinois State play next, go redbirds!


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## ISUCC

2-0 ILS leads MSU in the 2nd, live stats

http://www.goshockers.com/liveStats...=&SPID=2844&SPORT_ID=2844&GAME_STAT_ID=222147


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## ISUCC

the balls seem to be flying out of the Ick this afternoon, 5-4 MSU leads ILS in the 7th, come on ILS!


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## ISUCC

YES! another HR for ILS and they now lead 6-5, come on redbirds!


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## msreason

Missouri State's game today against Illinois State is a "cross pod" game which means it does not count for the tournament standings as to who gos to the championship game Saturday.  Their must win games are Thursday and Friday.  Conversely, our must-win games are today against Wichita and Thursday against Southern Illinois.  Friday's games against Southern Illinois  is a "be nice to win."


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## ISUCC

I didn't realize that, doesn't matter anyway, MSU wins on a freakin' GRAND SLAM in the bottom of the 9th, unreal. 

All right ISU, let's see some more home runs tonight! 



msreason said:


> Missouri State's game today against Illinois State is a "cross pod" game which means it does not count for the tournament standings as to who gos to the championship game Saturday.  Their must win games are Thursday and Friday.  Conversely, our must-win games are today against Wichita and Thursday against Southern Illinois.  Friday's games against Southern Illinois  is a "be nice to win."


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## msreason

Bear's walk-off grand-slam beats Illinois State 9-6 Wednesday afternoon


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## msreason

Starting pitchers just announced for this evening's game...Eric Valdez is going for ISU and WSU will pitch Tim Kelley who pitched the 2-0 game against the Sycamores to beat ISU in the opening game of the series a few weeks back.  Kelley WON'T be able to do that twice!

On another topic...the league has announced that the 2010 tournament will be in Wichita once again!


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## ISUCC

I hope not MS, for those interested Golden is blogging from the game

http://blogs.tribstar.com/downinthevalley/?p=224



msreason said:


> Starting pitchers just announced for this evening's game...Eric Valdez is going for ISU and WSU will pitch Tim Kelley who pitched the 2-0 game against the Sycamores to beat ISU in the opening game of the series a few weeks back.  *Kelley WON'T be able to do that twice!*
> 
> On another topic...the league has announced that the 2010 tournament will be in Wichita once again!


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## msreason

Grand Salami in the 1st for WSU in the first on an 0-2 count.  We have to answer quickly with one of our patented explosive innings.


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## BlueSycamore

Why does Valdez start so poorly most every time out?  Sure sucks to start in a 4-0 hole!  I know second guessing is a lot easier than coaching but why is Rodriguez not the opening game starter?  He has been the most effective for quite awhile now.


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## msreason

Rodriguez pitched Sunday...otherwise he would have been the game 1 starter I imagine.


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## Beav89

BlueSycamore said:


> Why does Valdez start so poorly most every time out?  Sure sucks to start in a 4-0 hole!  I know second guessing is a lot easier than coaching but why is Rodriguez not the opening game starter?  He has been the most effective for quite awhile now.



I also think (on top of the fact that he just pitched on Sunday), that Meggs would prefer to have him available for the Championship game on Saturday, if that materializes.


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## msreason

Gotta win the first pod game first!  But Rodriguez couldn't and shouldn't go with just three days rest.


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## Beav89

msreason said:


> Gotta win the first pod game first!  But Rodriguez couldn't and shouldn't go with just three days rest.



I agree with the issue of rest.  But, if Rodriguez had the same rest as Valdez, I can see the gamble with holding Joe.  I have no doubt that Meggs will not hesitate for a second to pull Valdez if he continues to be unsettled throughout the second inning.


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## msreason

Gotta find some holes in Tim Kelley's pitching this time out and get even quickly to get the tempo of the game going in our direction.


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## Beav89

Based on what I'm hearing, this is a good start for a momentum shift.  Let's not have any more LOB!


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## msreason

We're getting hits, we're loading the bases and we're taking advantages of Shocker lapses.  We're still ooking for the explosive inning!


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## Beav89

Is anyone else using the free audio from gosycamores.com and having problems with it (i.e., just dropped off after the 2nd inning and it's not coming back)?


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## msreason

You can go to the KNSS website and click on the "Listen" button to get their broadcast if the Sycamore broadcast doesn't come back.


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## SydCamore

4 - 4.


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## Beav89

Yeah, that's what I just had to do and got the text from SkinnyLu at the same time that it was tied at 4.  Glad to hear it.


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## TJames

southwind....isu won the 1995 mvc tournament which was played at lamphier field in springfield, illinois.....i was the baseball sports information director at the time...and i also did the color commentary on the isu baseball radio broadcasts....


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## Beav89

Looks like Ace and Mike are having periodic problems with the internet feed, so I'm back to Shocker Radio.  6-4 in the bottom of the 6th--love it!  Also love that SkinnyLu is posting photos live up to her Facebook profile, so I'm able to see snapshots of the game at Ick.


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## msreason

The new pitcher, Remington Johnson, has thrown 29 strikeouts in 18 inning this season and has not allowed an earned run in last six innings.  He has a 4.00 era.


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## msreason

We're now up 7-4.  We have a very diciplined team that has really been taught how to play baseball.  We're one of the best in the nation on defense, we are a great hitting team, we take advantage of the other team's short-comings and we have an up-and-coming pitching staff.  We've got to keep this level of play going.


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## msreason

In his previous 12 outing, Tim Kelley gave up just 20 earned runs in 83 innings with a 2.15 era.  He gave up six earned runs tonight in five innings.  Chalk up another pitcher who's getting a good percentage of his earned runs for the year in one game.


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## Beav89

If Manus had only been ready sooner...


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## msreason

And Feiser hadn't thrown the ball away.  He shouldn't have even attempted the throw to first.


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## msreason

I spoke too soon about a diciplined team.  Feiser ran into Ferrell!  Now two men on base on what should have been a double-play!


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## msreason

Thank goodness Manus did his job and had WSU swinging at a lot of bad and marginal pitches.  Good ball movement. Now going to the bottom of the 7th.  Score in our favor 7-6.


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## Beav89

Shocker Radio just mentioned that Shelton is in the bullpen warming up.


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## msreason

Shelton has been off and on...let's hope he has one of his great outings and can shut them down before things get away from us in the 8th!


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## Beav89

I know that Manus has a bit of a reputation for walks, but who thinks Shelton should have gone in a batter sooner?


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## bent20

What's the score now?


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## Beav89

SkinnyLu reports that Cordell is in the bullpen.


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## Beav89

bent20 said:


> What's the score now?



8-7 Shockers.  Shelton hit batter to load the bases.


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## BankShot

Update please...wazzup?


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## msreason

Still no outs in the 8th!  Wild pitch for Shelton...another runner in. 9-7


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## Beav89

msreason said:


> Shelton has been off and on...let's hope he has one of his great outings and can shut them down before things get away from us in the 8th!



I think we know who showed up today...

11-7 and Cordell is going in.


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## msreason

Another base hit.  Two runs in for WSU.  Still no outs.  11-7

Pitching change...Cordell Greene inherits a runner at 1st with no outs in the 8th.


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## IndyTreeFan

To quote an old (and hilariously funny) Saturday Night Live skit, "What the hell happened?":eek7:


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## BankShot

Geesh...Who's in the bullpen? Shelton sure choked at the wrong time.


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## Beav89

I think the last couple of weeks have shown that the pitching core have some challenges with TRUE pressure.  Plus, some uncharacteristic flubs in fielding.

Crap.  Cordell hit him with 0-2 count.


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## BankShot

Where are we in the batting order, top of the 9th? We need Heimlich as an Asst Coach!


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## ISUCC

It's over folks, we just need to be happy ISU had a great season, but just picked the wrong time to go into a sustained losing streak. Just gotta hope for better things in 2010. Looks like ISU left too many men on base tonight too. Sigh........this is turning ugly, and really fast too.

ISU just hasn't done well in true "pressure packed" situations as we've seen at MSU and now tonight in Wichita


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## Beav89

Intentionally loaded the bases and they're going to the bullpen again to Harlan.

And WSU is on a PH for the 3rd batter in the order, to give you a reference, Bank Shot.  There's one out.


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## msreason

Harlan on to pitch with bases loaded and 1 out in 8th.


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## IndyTreeFan

Aren't we going to run out of pitchers soon?


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## bent20

Pretty disappointing performance for our pitching staff over the past week.


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## BankShot

What's our team ERA been over those 4 games...10 or 11?

Need a double play ground ball here...any corner.


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## ISUCC

sadly, it doesn't matter, now 13-7 and WSU still hitting, unreal how this has turned out. 



IndyTreeFan said:


> Aren't we going to run out of pitchers soon?


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## Beav89

PH Letourneau gets a single for two more runs.

13-7


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## ISUCC

yuck, I've seen enough, have a good night all! 14-7 WSU leads now.


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## bent20

I was hoping game two at MSU was a fluke. I now hope this doesn't carry over to next season.


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## Lights Out

Probably best we lose now, and save the emabarassment of doing it on National TV!  Can't fault the offense, but our pitchers who have been doing it with smoke and mirrors, finally got exposed!!


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## BankShot

I can't believe we were up 7-6 last inning...damn shame. We climbed to #2 in the MVC this season, but as we can now see, there's a HUGE psychological hurdle that now awaits ISU Baseball.


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## Southwind05

TJames said:


> southwind....isu won the 1995 mvc tournament which was played at lamphier field in springfield, illinois.....i was the baseball sports information director at the time...and i also did the color commentary on the isu baseball radio broadcasts....



Thanks TJ...
Do you recall if it was pretty well attended playing at a neutral site like that?


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## bent20

I feel bad for the players. It was such a great season and this past week has been about the worst possible ending you could imagine. I guess anything is still possible past tonight. I'll remain hopeful, but after this I'll be a little surprised if we win another game.


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## Beav89

Yeah, the pitching staff seems to struggle with TRUE pressure.  I also think they're pitch calls could be too one-dimensional?  Seems that the good teams don't take long to figure out what's coming (if we haven't already given up the runs in the beginning).


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## Beav89

bent20 said:


> I feel bad for the players. It was such a great season and this past week has been about the worst possible ending you could imagine. I guess anything is still possible past tonight. I'll remain hopeful, but after this I'll be a little surprised if we win another game.



I figure they'll pull at least one game out, if not both, against the Illinois teams.  They need to show that they're not tanking as a whole, and these guys do have to be able to walk off the field with some pride.


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## bent20

I hope they do win from a mental stand point at the very least.


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## BankShot

Good point, Beav. Do the ISU pitchers have an opportunity to study scouting reports/pitching charts on opposing players in advance (sometimes using last year data)?  We just couldn't keep anyone off-balance the past four games. Maybe they decoded our signs...Wichita/Boeing & Cessna high-tech Hubble access? Howz that for a conspiracy...LOL

Will our new stadium be ready NEXT Spring? Any idea re: tonight's attendance?


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## bent20

What was the final score?


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## msreason

It would be a stretch...but if we win two and Wichita loses two the next couple of days, then we're back in the Championship...but I can't see Wichita State losing two in a row.  But hey...it could happen!


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## msreason

Final score 15-7.


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## Beav89

BankShot said:


> Good point, Beav. Do the ISU pitchers have an opportunity to study scouting reports/pitching charts on opposing players in advance (sometimes using last year data)?  We just couldn't keep anyone off-balance the past four games. Maybe they decoded our signs...Wichita/Boeing & Cessna high-tech Hubble access? Howz that for a conspiracy...LOL



Nice, Bank Shot!  I knew there was a larger answer to this!

You know, I have to believe they do, but I don't have concrete evidence of that.  And here's where I'm going to get on my soapbox now that the season is nearly over.  I (PERSONALLY) feel that ISU does not have a true pitching coach yet, which may explain some of this.  I don't have any special info or anything from someone on the team to validate this (believe me, I try to stay out of that with Cordell--he doesn't need an "Aunt Manager" to chew on his ear).  Based on the experience of the coaches on the staff (you can read their bios), I just don't think the crew is finely tuned as it should be.  I'm hoping that Meggs can spend some time in the off-season looking at what the next steps are for repeating the success they have achieved this year and how the coaching staff can contribute/mentor/lead the team.


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## msreason

If we don't lose any of the Juniors to the draft...then we've got the makings of a solid offense against next season.  It'll be important to get more pitching relief and young men to challenge for the starting spots.  The new stadium, all of the MVC awards and our successful season should be good draws for recruiting. Be proud of these young men and the coaching staff.  It was a great turn-a-round year.


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## Beav89

msreason said:


> If we don't lose any of the Juniors to the draft...then we've got the makings of a solid offense against next season.  It'll be important to get more pitching relief and young men to challenge for the starting spots.  The new stadium, all of the MVC awards and our successful season should be good draws for recruiting. Be proud of these young men and the coaching staff.  It was a great turn-a-round year.



I agree, MS.  While I'm crying in my beer, I am happy that the Sycs had as much success as they've had this season.  Much better than anyone anticipated!

:sycamores:


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## msreason

Beav89: I agree that coaching is important to grow our pitchers.  Like you, I have no inside information, but that is an area that Meggs needs to look at.  We really need to get our team ERA down to be the number one team next year.  I remember going to a Giants/Rockies games a few years back.. As I was standing at the Rockies bullpen, the pitching coach was telling a veteran pitcher about a minor change he needed to make in his grip as he was throwing in the pen.  Pitching is an art where small changes make a huge difference.


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## msreason

Attendance tonight 3,864.


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## bent20

Having the conference coach of the year should be as big of a recruiting tool as any. We better take advantage of something like that for once. If we do lose some players in the draft, the bright side is that bolds well for recruiting as well.


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## SkinnyLu

*Okay - Talk about classless*

This is SkinnyLu and I do not hide the Cordell Greene is my son.   Our family and my inlaws traveled to Wichita to see the whole MVC series.  Tonights game was great to watch and then VERY hard to watch.   It was a very UNFORTUNATE ending for the game but what surprised me most was the Wichita fans.  (IS THAT POSSIBLE??  Read on...) 

Okay, I knew going into the stadium that there were 3,800 Shocker fans screaming for their team.  Our tickets were luckily right smack dab in the middle of a TON of Shocker fans who claimed to be devote christians and kept talking about how they had PRAYED for this and that.   When ISU got ahead of MSU they turned on their own kids and it was ugly..."So and so, you stink and should go back to Oklahoma, etc. etc."   I know that if ISU had won the plate umpire would have needed an escort to his car and would probably need to go in to witness protection.

BUT - the icing on the cake was that when the game was over and the ISU playes were packing up and heading to the bus Wichita fans were standing around the boys yelling at them calling them "Fags" and "take your asses back to Indiana" and alot of other very ugly things.   We are talking about Grandpas, Grandma's and Mothers!!   I have never wanted to hit someone so bad in my life.   

The SHOCKER FANS ARE SHOCKING!!!  They should be ashamed of themselves (those that were taunting the team).   I know it wasn't all 3,800 fans but I counted at least 100+ classless soles.     

I hope CREIGHTON kicks their butts tomorrow!!!    

I am proud to say that Coach Meggs is not only grooming good baseball players but he is also teaching our boys to be great men!   I will trade that for an MVC title any day.   (although both would be sweet).


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## Divergence

SkinnyLu said:


> The SHOCKER FANS ARE SHOCKING!!!  They should be ashamed of themselves (those that were taunting the team).   I know it wasn't all 3,800 fans but I counted at least 100+ classless soles.



I might remind you that Indiana State fans have not had a perfect record.  I recall a WSU series where the Indiana State fans where throwing beer on WSU players and yelling racial ephitets at their black player until it blew up into a player/fan altercation.

I think most WSU fans actually like ISU (Blue) and coach Meggs.  And if WSU doesn't make it to the finals and win it, ISU would be their choice.  I do like what the Coach of ISU has going on.


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## TJames

*skinny...welcome to the world of wichita state baseball....*

it's sad to say....and i am sorry that you, along with isu's players and coaches as well as other isu fans and families, had to withstand all that....but it shouldn't come as too much of a surprise.....before the sycamores went to eek stadium for the regular-season series, we recounted several horror stories from past encounters with the shockers and their fans right here on this website....

now you know why there is so much strong dislike for wee-cheat-um state, their head coach and a sizeable segment of their fan-base....no, not every shocker fan is that way...but a good number are, unfortunately......

they are what we like to call "front-runners"...they'll support you to the death, if need be, as long as you win...but once you lose, watch out...they'll turn on their team at a moment's notice.....

you spoke of the umpires needing a police escort had wichita not won the game.....i've seen that.....when the sycamores did prevail in previous mvc tournaments out there.....i've seen teams needing police escorts in order to get out of there.....

unfortunately, while there are some good things and good people there, wichita can be a pretty hateful place at times.....which you found out first-hand wednesday night....there is no political correctness associated with the wichita state baseball program....or their fans....they'll shout out anything and everything.....we've heard them utter the n-word at isu african-american players.....

wsu's players have told isu coaches, "f--k you!!"....and can we forget what happened with evansville's player who was intentionally hit in the head by a wsu pitcher a few years ago while the UE player was taking practice swings away from the batter's box?????

in general, in order for a visiting team to be successful at wichita state, they have to be both physically and mentally tough.....players can't back down....if the shockers try to intimidate you, so be it....take it to them.....

because that is the shockers game...to try and get into the opposing team's head....and under their skin....i well remember the likes of chad mcdonald, danny and dennis frye, tony collins, and dave olson.....getting into donnybrooks with shocker players....you normally don't like your players to get into fights...but against wichita state, that's another matter...you can't back down against them....


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## BankShot

msreason said:


> Beav89: I agree that coaching is important to grow our pitchers.  Like you, I have no inside information, but that is an area that Meggs needs to look at.  We really need to get our team ERA down to be the number one team next year.  I remember going to a Giants/Rockies games a few years back.. As I was standing at the Rockies bullpen, the pitching coach was telling a veteran pitcher about a minor change he needed to make in his grip as he was throwing in the pen.  Pitching is an art where small changes make a huge difference.



The ol' Beav & MS "pumpkins" just didn't fall off of the wagon yesterday!:geeza2: 

The bio-mechanics of pitching success are so finely tuned to the laws of physics, and the formula is different for each body type. Throw in the necessary psyche elements, and you have a pitching coach job description of a Werner Von Braun/Freud  clone, with a touch of Dr. Phil!:violent:  

Personally, the 1st thing I'd do in prep for next season is look at the schedule and tweak where necessary. Coach Meggs did a geat job in this area for his 2nd season, and I see a few more changes forthcoming. Not an easy job, given the budget and school obligations. With our new baseball "centerpiece" next season...and coupled with this season's success, we've got a nice cuisine to offer in piecing together the 2009-10 schedule.


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## SycamoreFan317

We have discussed the topic of assistant coaches on this board before and the lack of money they get paid. How can you expect to bring a top pitching coach in when we will not pay him a decent salary? Great pitching coaches are in great demand, being a mid-major is tough but being a mid-major with a low pay scale is even tougher. 

Please keep in mind our pitching staff is relatively young and with maturity and experience will get better. SkinnyLu hit the nail on the head when she stated that it is more important to be responsible young men that is really what sports is all about, teaching life lessons.

As for as the "homer" atmosphere at the game site this is why the MVC really should play this at a neutral site or at least on a rotating basis. The MVC is as much to blame for the atmosphere as is WSU 
for they allow this situation to occur. Is this any way to run a tournament that picks your representative to the NCAA tournament?


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## BankShot

There's always the possibility of a public-private (corporate) partnership in subsidizing salary.
Have you been following the Greater Clark School Corp.'s relationship with their NEW Supt?

http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...eater+Clark+hires+Daeschner+as+superintendent

They'll now have the HIGHEST paid Supt. in IN, with "private corporate funds" bridging the $100,000 difference between current IN DOE Chief Tony Bennett's last salary ($130k/yr.). According to the ISBA, this is the only case in IN, but a definite trend given the economy.


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## SycamoreFan317

BankShot said:


> There's always the possibility of a public-private (corporate) partnership in subsidizing salary.
> Have you been following the Greater Clark School Corp.'s relationship with their NEW Supt?
> 
> http://www.courier-journal.com/arti...eater+Clark+hires+Daeschner+as+superintendent
> 
> They'll now have the HIGHEST paid Supt. in IN, with "private corporate funds" bridging the $100,000 difference between current IN DOE Chief Tony Bennett's last salary ($130k/yr.). According to the ISBA, this is the only case in IN, but a definite trend given the economy.



Too much money is being spent on administration salaries, isn't $130K enough for somebody to live pretty well. I would be against this for public education, but for it on the collegiate level. In fact,this has been happening on the collegiate level for decades. Louisville used private money to send Denny Crum off into retirement.


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## TJames

*wichita state hosting the mvc tournament has been a problem for years......*

i find it interesting that now, finally, people are taking serious notice.....wish you all were around when we were going out to wee-cheat-um state every year for the mvc tournament.....lol.....


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## TJames

*as for assistant coaching salaries......*

it's a problem at isu across the board for all sports....but it really hits it with the football and baseball staffs.....best pitching coach isu has had in recent years was ken westray.....back in the late 1980s and early 1990s....he went on to work in the philadelphia phillies farm system.....


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## SycamoreFan317

If you feel as I do that the MVC Tournament is not on a level playing field then I encourage to send a email to the conference commissioner and championship administrator, you will find those emails addresses below. I would also suggest that this needs to be brought to the attention of other message boards for the other conference schools. I can do some of this and will, but I would appreciate help if anybody is interested. It just is not right that a school not only gets home field advantage *EVERY
year, but they do not have to win a single conference game to get in the tournament. My hat is off to WSU for working this out for their own good, but the conference allows this to happen. So what do you say is anybody on board or not.

mitch@mvc.org
elgin@mvc.org*


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## Lights Out

First of all please don't cry sour grapes about Wichita hosting the tournament.  If you have ever been to Wichita you can see first hand why they host the tournament.  The MVC just like any other business wants to make money!!  The most money to be made is having the tournament in Wichita.  Can you imagine if ISU hosted the tournament and the attendance was 850!!! It would be the joke of the conference. There were almost 4,000 people there last night to watch ISU-WSU.  Nowhere else can you have that kind of attendance.  The Sycamores didn't lose because the game was in Wichita, they lost because they got beat by a better team last night!  I will guarantee the MVC is barely making enough money as it with this set up.  I highly doubt the MVC wants to lose money on its confrence tourney like it does in other sports.


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## SycamoreFan317

Nobody said that we lost because of it being in Wichita, you some how came to that conclusion. Money should not be the first item of concern for a conference tournament. Having a fair tourney on a level playing field should be number one. That can happen by either playing at a neutral site or rotating the site. Once you find what locations will support the tournament best then you put it up for bid, just like the Big Ten did with thier basketball tournaments.


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## ValleyFanatic

Divergence said:


> I might remind you that Indiana State fans have not had a perfect record.  I recall a WSU series where the Indiana State fans where throwing beer on WSU players and yelling racial ephitets at their black player until it blew up into a player/fan altercation.
> 
> I think most WSU fans actually like ISU (Blue) and coach Meggs.  And if WSU doesn't make it to the finals and win it, ISU would be their choice.  I do like what the Coach of ISU has going on.



I remember that incident in Terre Haute. Pretty disappointing for sure.

If Sycamore fans expect to be treated like royalty in an opposing stadium, it's not going to happen. And that's not just at WSU. That's at ANY ballpark that has good atmosphere and a good following. Just as it is expected to be the other way around if a game were played in Terre Haute.


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## ValleyFanatic

Lights Out said:


> First of all please don't cry sour grapes about Wichita hosting the tournament.  If you have ever been to Wichita you can see first hand why they host the tournament.  The MVC just like any other business wants to make money!!  The most money to be made is having the tournament in Wichita.  Can you imagine if ISU hosted the tournament and the attendance was 850!!! It would be the joke of the conference. There were almost 4,000 people there last night to watch ISU-WSU.  Nowhere else can you have that kind of attendance.  The Sycamores didn't lose because the game was in Wichita, they lost because they got beat by a better team last night!  I will guarantee the MVC is barely making enough money as it with this set up.  I highly doubt the MVC wants to lose money on its confrence tourney like it does in other sports.



You are exactly right. The MVC tried a neutral site tournament in 1995 in Springfield, Illinois. They got laughed right out of the stadium with all of the 200 or so fans that showed up. They even tried it in Springfield, Missouri at another on-campus facility. The host Bears barely drew 900 to its games. That's why it hasn't been rotating to Springfield, Missouri since then. The Valley gave it a chance outside of Wichita and it simply doesn't work. You can say it shouldn't be about the financial aspects, but that's easier said than done. Please be realistic. 

The Sycamores had a great year. I can understand if some fans are little sour after last night's game and are taking it out on whatever and whoever.

P.S. I really like Coach Meggs. I'm glad he won the Coach of the Year Award. Well deserved.


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## Beav89

*While I hear what you're saying...*



Lights Out said:


> First of all please don't cry sour grapes about Wichita hosting the tournament.  If you have ever been to Wichita you can see first hand why they host the tournament.  The MVC just like any other business wants to make money!!  The most money to be made is having the tournament in Wichita.  Can you imagine if ISU hosted the tournament and the attendance was 850!!! It would be the joke of the conference. There were almost 4,000 people there last night to watch ISU-WSU.  Nowhere else can you have that kind of attendance.  The Sycamores didn't lose because the game was in Wichita, they lost because they got beat by a better team last night!  I will guarantee the MVC is barely making enough money as it with this set up.  I highly doubt the MVC wants to lose money on its confrence tourney like it does in other sports.



It's a sad statement indeed, if conference fans choose to excuse bad fan behavior in the name of making money by hosting a tournament.  I understand WSU has the best facility and the largest draw (because most of them are home fans) of the schools.  Personally, I think this type of tourney should be neutrally hosted in a central location, not at ISU or any other school.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Wichita not the farthest western point in the entire conference?  Fan bases from some of the smaller programs may be more inclined to travel if it's less distance and a more neutral environment.  (Granted, I'm saying this from a Pac-10 perspective after reading the posts above me that came in while I was writing this.  Looks like Pac-10 team fans travel better than MVC.)

I also do not argue the fact that ISU did NOT lose last night because of the fans.  That was on the field between those two teams.  But, if you had a young daughter, would you accept sitting in the stands and having that vitriol spewed around for her to hear?  I wouldn't.  I encourage any and all MVC fans that are attending this week and have the same issue to contact the conference commissioner.


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## SycamoreFan317

It takes time to develop a following to try it 4 times out of 32 and never two years in a row is hardly giving somebody else a chance.


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## ValleyFanatic

SycamoreFan317 said:


> It takes time to develop a following to try it 4 times out of 32 and never two years in a row is hardly giving somebody else a chance.



The same could probably be said for WSU when they started from scratch in 1979. I think they've earned some of what they have.

FWIW, besides men's basketball and just recently women's basketball, every other Valley post-season tournament in every sport is held at an on-campus facility.


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## Lights Out

What amazes me is that people are calling for a neutral site to host the MVC Tourney.  How many D1 Tournaments are at neutral fields?  Maybe 3 or 4?  The fact remains the MVC would be eating a ton of money to play at a neutral field. There were 4,000 fans there last night to watch the game.  I can't stress the fact that the MVC wants to make money!!  That is a major factor, like it or not.   I say quit whining about where it is played and just win!!


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## SycamoreFan317

ValleyFanatic said:


> The same could probably be said for WSU when they started from scratch in 1979. I think they've earned some of what they have.
> 
> FWIW, besides men's basketball and just recently women's basketball, every other Valley post-season tournament in every sport is held at an on-campus facility.



How many of those are held at the same location year after year. From the MVC website.

BASEBALL: The State Farm MVC Baseball Championship returns to Wichita, Kan., for 2010. The tournament is at Eck Stadium / Tyler Field on May 26-29. Since 1987, the tournament has been played at Wichita State every season except four [Springfield, Ill. (1995); Evansville, Ind. (1998); and Springfield, Mo. (2004 and 2007)]. In addition, Wichita State has administered seven NCAA baseball regionals in the past 13 years. Wichita State, as host institution, receives one of the tournament spots in the four-day, six-team tournament. The 2009 tournament marks the first year of a new three-team two-pod format, which guarantees each team three games. The winner of each three-team pod plays one another in a single championship game. The champion of the tournament, which was awarded on a bid basis, receives an automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament.
In addition to the recommendation of the championship


----------



## Lights Out

Who else could host the MVC Tourney??  Without it being a joke!


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## Beav89

SycamoreFan317 said:


> We have discussed the topic of assistant coaches on this board before and the lack of money they get paid. How can you expect to bring a top pitching coach in when we will not pay him a decent salary? Great pitching coaches are in great demand, being a mid-major is tough but being a mid-major with a low pay scale is even tougher.
> 
> Please keep in mind our pitching staff is relatively young and with maturity and experience will get better. SkinnyLu hit the nail on the head when she stated that it is more important to be responsible young men that is really what sports is all about, teaching life lessons.
> 
> As for as the "homer" atmosphere at the game site this is why the MVC really should play this at a neutral site or at least on a rotating basis. The MVC is as much to blame for the atmosphere as is WSU
> for they allow this situation to occur. Is this any way to run a tournament that picks your representative to the NCAA tournament?



I agree with what you're saying with the pay challenges.  This is the litmus test of your AD--can he think outside the box and find creative ways to grow programs on a limited budget.  Prettyman has already demonstrated his abilities with getting the stadium project on track, so my fingers are crossed that he's also able to help address this.

I also realize that the pitching staff is relatively young.  But, some of these same guys that people were crying about coming from the bullpen and not getting the job done...were they not with the program last year?  I agree with MS's example earlier about the value of having someone that can teach something as simple as a change of grip or mechanics because they have the experience and knowledge.  I feel that the Sycamores are still missing that element with this current staff, and this now places the pressure on these younger guys to make progress and perform without it.  I think Meggs is a great head coach, but he cannot do it all on his own.  If ISU ever wants to have a hope of identifying, recruiting and mentoring/coaching someone on Steve Strasburg's (SDSU) level, you need to find a pitching coach that can see that raw talent in a guy that couldn't even get a major league team to take him seriously at a $300k signing bonus out of high school, and now will most likely set a new record for $$ after June's draft.

It's an ugly fact, but you get what you pay for.

BTW, I do think that Meggs is doing a great job with growing these young men into responsible students and citizens.  I'm as happy as a clam with their expectations and mentoring--believe me, there are a lot of programs out there that don't provide this much guidance and rule structure around the team.  This is a huge positive for ISU!

Ok, putting my soapbox away now...gotta get some stuff done before this afternoon's game.  Go Trees!!


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## Beav89

Lights Out said:


> What amazes me is that people are calling for a neutral site to host the MVC Tourney.  How many D1 Tournaments are at neutral fields?  Maybe 3 or 4?  The fact remains the MVC would be eating a ton of money to play at a neutral field. There were 4,000 fans there last night to watch the game.  I can't stress the fact that the MVC wants to make money!!  That is a major factor, like it or not.   I say quit whining about where it is played and just win!!



How about no tournament at all?  Pac-10 doesn't hold one for baseball.


----------



## SkinnyLu

*divergence*



Divergence said:


> I might remind you that Indiana State fans have not had a perfect record.  I recall a WSU series where the Indiana State fans where throwing beer on WSU players and yelling racial ephitets at their black player until it blew up into a player/fan altercation.
> 
> I think most WSU fans actually like ISU (Blue) and coach Meggs.  And if WSU doesn't make it to the finals and win it, ISU would be their choice.  I do like what the Coach of ISU has going on.



I would have to assume that this behavior happened previous to Coach Meggs and I know it was before my son joined ISU.   This behavior should not be allowed by either team.  I would have confronted our own fans if I had seen them doing such classless acts.   

There were some VERY nice Shockers sitting around us that wished us well, especially after we got behind.  I will give credit where credit is due.  

:sycamores:


----------



## ValleyFanatic

SycamoreFan317 said:


> How many of those are held at the same location year after year. From the MVC website.
> 
> BASEBALL: The State Farm MVC Baseball Championship returns to Wichita, Kan., for 2010. The tournament is at Eck Stadium / Tyler Field on May 26-29. Since 1987, the tournament has been played at Wichita State every season except four [Springfield, Ill. (1995); Evansville, Ind. (1998); and Springfield, Mo. (2004 and 2007)]. In addition, Wichita State has administered seven NCAA baseball regionals in the past 13 years. Wichita State, as host institution, receives one of the tournament spots in the four-day, six-team tournament. The 2009 tournament marks the first year of a new three-team two-pod format, which guarantees each team three games. The winner of each three-team pod plays one another in a single championship game. The champion of the tournament, which was awarded on a bid basis, receives an automatic bid to the NCAA Tournament.
> In addition to the recommendation of the championship



It wouldn't be at WSU year after year if Missouri State fans, Indiana State fans, etc. packed their ballparks. In other venues, I don't think the attendances difference is as dramatic so that's why it rotates often in other sports. Again, they tried doing the same thing in baseball to be fair but nobody showed up. What else can you do?

Lights Out is right. It's all about the money. And that's with every conference, every school in the nation. And also like Lights Out says, the teams on the field determine the outcomes of games, not the fans. ISU proved that with their series win in Wichita this year.


----------



## ValleyFanatic

Beav89 said:


> How about no tournament at all?  Pac-10 doesn't hold one for baseball.



I'm going to sound like I'm beating a never-ending drum, but with that point, the Valley doesn't make any money at all. So that will never happen.


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## SkinnyLu

*Fan attitudes*

Maybe my post last night didn't state my position clearly.   What the heck happened to cheering for your team?????   NOT against the other team.  

I yelled LOUDLY for our guys when we were down and only said things encouraging and NEVER would have said something attacking about an WSU player.    Once we were ahead I didn't yell at all.   

BUT - Sitting in the Shocker crowd was like sitting at YANKEE Stadium.   I've been to Twins, Padres, Mariners, and Cubs games and no fan base is as ugly as the Yankees.   I think you could say the same for the Shockers for MVC.    They do make money, and so do the yankees.   But what does that buy them??   Certainly not an enjoyable sporting experience.

Last nights WSU fans screaming slanderous comments to our players packing up to leave made no sense at all.   THEY FRICKEN WON!!   They out played ISU and NO ONE was challenging them on that.   

Regarding the tournament.  Let's do what the Pac 10 does, I would vote for just going off the season record instead of doing it always at one field.    MSU would be moving on and they, so far, are the better team.


----------



## SycamoreFan317

Lights Out said:


> What amazes me is that people are calling for a neutral site to host the MVC Tourney.  How many D1 Tournaments are at neutral fields?  Maybe 3 or 4?  The fact remains the MVC would be eating a ton of money to play at a neutral field. There were 4,000 fans there last night to watch the game.  I can't stress the fact that the MVC wants to make money!!  That is a major factor, like it or not.   I say quit whining about where it is played and just win!!



State Farm is the corporate sponsor for all conference tournaments, so I assume they are paying for most if not all of the expenses associated with the tournament. WSU had 3800 show up for a home game, what is the attendance for the games not involving WSU? They structured the schedule where they play all of their games at 7:00, coincidence I think not. I sent an email to the commish I will let you know if I get a response. One of the questions I asked the commisioner is if WSU finishes below sixth place does their automatic bid knock the sixth place team out of the tournament? If you are going to have a tournament then all teams should be involved.


----------



## SycEm

SycamoreFan317 said:


> One of the questions I asked the commisioner is if WSU finishes below sixth place does their automatic bid knock the sixth place team out of the tournament? If you are going to have a tournament then all teams should be involved.



Yes - if the host finishes out of the qualifying spots for the tournament, they bump the last place team that did qualify.  This happened to our softball team in 2006 when they finished 6th in the standings and were bumped by host Creighton that finished 8th that season.  The next off-season, the coaches and administrators switched the softball tourney format from a 6 team double elimination tournament to an 8 team single elimination tournament with some crazy byes for higher seeded teams.  This gave less likelihood of a host school bumping someone, but it is still possible.  Now, they have also implemented a rule that a school cannot put in a bid to host the tournament if they did not participate in the tournament the previous year - also an attempt to minimize the chances of a host not earning their way into the field.


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## SycEm

Also - the baseball tournament is given out on a bid basis and voted on by the schools based on the bids.  Here is the link to the MVC Baseball Manual  - page 1 gets right to the bid process and criteria.


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## SycamoreFan317

Beav89 said:


> I agree with what you're saying with the pay challenges.  This is the litmus test of your AD--can he think outside the box and find creative ways to grow programs on a limited budget.  Prettyman has already demonstrated his abilities with getting the stadium project on track, so my fingers are crossed that he's also able to help address this.
> 
> I also realize that the pitching staff is relatively young.  But, some of these same guys that people were crying about coming from the bullpen and not getting the job done...were they not with the program last year?  I agree with MS's example earlier about the value of having someone that can teach something as simple as a change of grip or mechanics because they have the experience and knowledge.  I feel that the Sycamores are still missing that element with this current staff, and this now places the pressure on these younger guys to make progress and perform without it.  I think Meggs is a great head coach, but he cannot do it all on his own.  If ISU ever wants to have a hope of identifying, recruiting and mentoring/coaching someone on Steve Strasburg's (SDSU) level, you need to find a pitching coach that can see that raw talent in a guy that couldn't even get a major league team to take him seriously at a $300k signing bonus out of high school, and now will most likely set a new record for $$ after June's draft.
> 
> It's an ugly fact, but you get what you pay for.
> 
> BTW, I do think that Meggs is doing a great job with growing these young men into responsible students and citizens.  I'm as happy as a clam with their expectations and mentoring--believe me, there are a lot of programs out there that don't provide this much guidance and rule structure around the team.  This is a huge positive for ISU!
> 
> Ok, putting my soapbox away now...gotta get some stuff done before this afternoon's game.  Go Trees!!



Being a mid-major ISU will never be able to compete with USC or Arizona State in the pay department. I think the best chance is to find and alum, possibly a local businessman, that absolutely loves baseball and will agree to help fund the assistant salaries. Somebody like Mr. Dorsett?


----------



## ValleyFanatic

SkinnyLu said:


> Maybe my post last night didn't state my position clearly.   What the heck happened to cheering for your team?????   NOT against the other team.
> 
> I yelled LOUDLY for our guys when we were down and only said things encouraging and NEVER would have said something attacking about an WSU player.    Once we were ahead I didn't yell at all.
> 
> BUT - Sitting in the Shocker crowd was like sitting at YANKEE Stadium.   I've been to Twins, Padres, Mariners, and Cubs games and no fan base is as ugly as the Yankees.   I think you could say the same for the Shockers for MVC.    They do make money, and so do the yankees.   But what does that buy them??   Certainly not an enjoyable sporting experience.
> 
> Last nights WSU fans screaming slanderous comments to our players packing up to leave made no sense at all.   THEY FRICKEN WON!!   They out played ISU and NO ONE was challenging them on that.
> 
> Regarding the tournament.  Let's do what the Pac 10 does, I would vote for just going off the season record instead of doing it always at one field.    MSU would be moving on and they, so far, are the better team.



I'm sorry about your experience. Some fans can go over the top. No doubt about it. However, regardless if you're cheering for your own squad or not, cheering loudly at an opposing venue is "asking for it". It's not really fair but that's how it is. And it's not just WSU, it's everywhere. I promise you that. 

I agree that MSU would be the most deserving team to move on, but again, the Valley makes money off the tournament and that is something they will not defer. Are you suggesting the Valley rid all of its post-season tournaments in all sports?


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## ValleyFanatic

SycamoreFan317 said:


> One of the questions I asked the commisioner is if WSU finishes below sixth place does their automatic bid knock the sixth place team out of the tournament? If you are going to have a tournament then all teams should be involved.



WSU has never failed to qualify for the Valley Tournament in all of the 30+ years of it. That is also one of the selling points to have it there. 

Ironically, when the Valley gave the tournament site to Springfield in 2007, Missouri State was the worst team in the league that year and it wasn't even close. The 9th place Bears knocked out 6th place Southern Illinois I believe because they were hosts. I don't think the Valley liked that too well.


----------



## Beav89

ValleyFanatic said:


> I'm sorry about your experience. Some fans can go over the top. No doubt about it. However, regardless if you're cheering for your own squad or not, cheering loudly at an opposing venue is "asking for it". It's not really fair but that's how it is. And it's not just WSU, it's everywhere. I promise you that.
> 
> I agree that MSU would be the most deserving team to move on, but again, the Valley makes money off the tournament and that is something they will not defer. Are you suggesting the Valley rid all of its post-season tournaments in all sports?



Not necessarily.  The Pac-10 has a conference tournament for basketball and ALL 10 teams qualify.  The tournament, by the way, is held at a neutral site (Staples Center in LA).  Granted, it may not be economical to have all conference teams represented in a baseball format, but there has got to be a better solution.  Guess the only one left is for fans to complain to the commissioner about their "experience."

BTW, do you know how much money the corporate-sponsored tournament actually brings in for the MVC?


----------



## Beav89

SycamoreFan317 said:


> Being a mid-major ISU will never be able to compete with USC or Arizona State in the pay department. I think the best chance is to find and alum, possibly a local businessman, that absolutely loves baseball and will agree to help fund the assistant salaries. Somebody like Mr. Dorsett?



I agree with ISU's competitive difficulties.  I know that OSU suffered from the same challenges, even within a prominent conference.  I would imagine that Prettyman has a good personal relationship with major supporters/donors and may be able to privately work those into donations to fill those gaps, as you suggested.


----------



## BankShot

I agree 100% on the issue of school adm salaries being too high. This whole incident across from Louisville (Greater Clark) was a _joke_, as former U of L hoop icon ('86 Card National Champ squad) ROBBIE VALENTINE was selected by the Board to head the "Search Committe" (which was CLOSED to the public) in January after Bennett resigned to assume the IN DOE position.  "RV" (as he's frequently addressed)  surely had wind of the Jefferson County (Louisville) School Corp. plans to terminate their $200,000/yr. support of his "Robbie Valentine Enterprises" Grant in April. RV didn't waste any time on trying to bring back the original Supt. with whom had initiated this grant years ago, STEPHEN DAESCHNER, who spent 14 yrs. as the chief of Louisville Schools. Daeschner, who was fired in 2007...matriculated to the SW Chicago suburbs, where he Supt. of District #204 for three (3) yrs. @ $265,000+ yr. Now at age 67 he'll make more than any other Supt in Indiana, while running a district w/only  11,000 students. Almost hard to believe, eh?


----------



## SycamoreFan317

BankShot said:


> I agree 100% on the issue of school adm salaries being too high. This whole incident across from Louisville (Greater Clark) was a _joke_, as former U of L hoop icon ('86 Card National Champ squad) ROBBIE VALENTINE was selected by the Board to head the "Search Committe" in January after Bennett resigned to assume the IN DOE position.  "RV" (as he's frequently addressed)  suredly had wind of the Jefferson County (Louisville) School Corp. plans to terminate their $200,000/yr. support of his "Robbie Valentine Enterprises" Grant in April. RV didn't waste any time on trying to bring back the original Supt. with whom had initiated this grant years ago, STEPHEN DAESCHNER, who spent 14 yrs. as the chief of Louisville Schools. Daeschner, who was fired in 2007...matriculated to the SW Chicago suburbs, where he Supt. of District #204 for three (3) yrs. @ $265,000+ yr. Now he'll make
> more than any other Supt in Indiana, while running a district w/only  11,000 students. Almost hard to believe, eh?



The extra money should go into the classrooms, not into the Supt. pocket. He darn well better produce some BIG results.


----------



## ValleyFanatic

Beav89 said:


> Not necessarily.  The Pac-10 has a conference tournament for basketball and ALL 10 teams qualify.  The tournament, by the way, is held at a neutral site (Staples Center in LA).  Granted, it may not be economical to have all conference teams represented in a baseball format, but there has got to be a better solution.  Guess the only one left is for fans to complain to the commissioner about their "experience."
> 
> BTW, do you know how much money the corporate-sponsored tournament actually brings in for the MVC?



I believe comparing basketball to baseball is about like apples to oranges. 

No, I don't know how much corporate money is brought in to the MVC (which I assume you mean for baseball only). I'm willing to venture out a guess that it does not cover all expenses involved in operating the tournament though. That's why attendance is crucial at this type of tournament for them.


----------



## Beav89

ValleyFanatic said:


> I believe comparing basketball to baseball is about like apples to oranges.
> 
> No, I don't know how much corporate money is brought in to the MVC (which I assume you mean for baseball only). I'm willing to venture out a guess that it does not cover all expenses involved in operating the tournament though. That's why attendance is crucial at this type of tournament for them.



And I would never presume to think that comparing basketball and baseball was the same.  I was using the example to show that you CAN structure a tournament to address host school issues by having it in a neutral site.  You seem to be absolutely set that it HAS to be at WSU regardless, without knowing any actual financial numbers on the baseball tournament.  It would be fair to say that we're ALL speculating on this premise of location without any hard data.

Do you mind if I ask what rival team you support (since that's what you noted in your profile)?


----------



## SycamoreFan317

ValleyFanatic said:


> I believe comparing basketball to baseball is about like apples to oranges.
> 
> No, I don't know how much corporate money is brought in to the MVC (which I assume you mean for baseball only). I'm willing to venture out a guess that it does not cover all expenses involved in operating the tournament though. That's why attendance is crucial at this type of tournament for them.



When the MVC played the tournament and it did not draw well, I guess that means that WSU fan base did not care to travel. 

Beav89- Here is some information on the corporate sponsorships for basketball tournaments, baseball would obviously be less, but I believe it covers the expenses. Do not forget the TV contract as well.

http://www.mvc-sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=7600&KEY=&ATCLID=272893


----------



## ValleyFanatic

Beav89 said:


> And I would never presume to think that comparing basketball and baseball was the same.  I was using the example to show that you CAN structure a tournament to address host school issues by having it in a neutral site.  You seem to be absolutely set that it HAS to be at WSU regardless, without knowing any actual financial numbers on the baseball tournament.  It would be fair to say that we're ALL speculating on this premise of location without any hard data.
> 
> Do you mind if I ask what rival team you support (since that's what you noted in your profile)?



Look, I'm not trying to start a fight. As you've seen with all my previous posts, I think the issues are clear onto why the tournament will never be at another neutral field again. In regards to you thinking that I think it has to be at WSU every year, that is not true. Please point out where I stated as such. I said if MSU, ISU, and other fanbases would come out to support their clubs and pack their stadiums, the the tournament would and should rotate. They've tried it a few times. It has failed every time. 

I'm a WSU fan, but that shouldn't have any bearing on what I think has been a pretty nice and civilized discussion.


----------



## ValleyFanatic

SycamoreFan317 said:


> When the MVC played the tournament and it did not draw well, I guess that means that WSU fan base did not care to travel.



I assume you mean when the MVC moved the tournament out of Wichita?

Well, I don't have any hard numbers to back me up on, but when listening to the games, I remember our broadcasters describing the fan setup as about 3:1 WSU. So of those 200 fans in Springfield, Illinois in 1995, about 130 of them were WSU fans ironically. 

I was in Springfield, Missouri in 2007 and during the WSU-MSU 7pm game on opening night, the makeup was 50-50. I was a little stunned, considering it was on the Bears home field.


----------



## SycamoreFan317

ValleyFanatic said:


> I assume you mean when the MVC moved the tournament out of Wichita?
> 
> Well, I don't have any hard numbers to back me up on, but when listening to the games, I remember our broadcasters describing the fan setup as about 3:1 WSU. So of those 200 fans in Springfield, Illinois in 1995, about 130 of them were WSU fans ironically.
> 
> I was in Springfield, Missouri in 2007 and during the WSU-MSU 7pm game on opening night, the makeup was 50-50. I was a little stunned, considering it was on the Bears home field.



What is the attendance for the games not involving WSU? Why is WSU the only team that has all games at 7:00 for? I suggest it is for the fans convenience. Is this really fair to the other teams, especially to MSU that won the regular season championship and they really do not get any benefit from it at all in comparison to what WSU gets just for being the home team.


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## Beav89

ValleyFanatic said:


> Look, I'm not trying to start a fight. As you've seen with all my previous posts, I think the issues are clear onto why the tournament will never be at another neutral field again. In regards to you thinking that I think it has to be at WSU every year, that is not true. Please point out where I stated as such. I said if MSU, ISU, and other fanbases would come out to support their clubs and pack their stadiums, the the tournament would and should rotate. They've tried it a few times. It has failed every time.
> 
> I'm a WSU fan, but that shouldn't have any bearing on what I think has been a pretty nice and civilized discussion.



I'm not trying to pick a fight either.  I also agree that other fan bases need to show up to the games as well.  God knows I'd go if I lived there--hell, I even drove cross country last month just to see ISU play up at UNI (which I will say that UNI's turnout mirrored why they no longer have a program next year).

I'm glad that you're here on the site to talk about this issue--it's been a great debate.  My curiosity got the best of me since I hadn't seen you on the forum before.  Nothing more than that.  

:cheers:


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## msreason

The contract allows for WSU to have the evening start times so that they can get gate revenue to offset the costs of putting on the tournament.


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## ValleyFanatic

SycamoreFan317 said:


> What is the attendance for the games not involving WSU? Why is WSU the only team that has all games at 7:00 for? I suggest it is for the fans convenience. Is this really fair to the other teams, especially to MSU that won the regular season championship and they really do not get any benefit from it at all in comparison to what WSU gets just for being the home team.



As msreason stated, it was the Valley who made the start times for WSU at 7pm mandatory, not WSU. And like mreason said, it was meant that way to maximize $$$$. In the past, WSU was only guaranteed the first 7pm game and then after that it was based on whether you were winning or losing. Since this is the first year of the pod play, this will be the first time WSU will be given all 7pm games. I personally am not the biggest fan of the pod play. A potential for too many meaningless games and the scenarios can be a bit confusing to the average fan. I like the regular 6-team bracket the best (the one the NCAA used before the expansion to 64 teams in 1999).


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## SycamoreFan317

msreason said:


> The contract allows for WSU to have the evening start times so that they can get gate revenue to offset the costs of putting on the tournament.



I still believe that the cost of the tournament is met with the sponsorships sold for the tournament. Between State Farm, Fox Midwest and others I am sure that they expenses are more than paid for. It would be interesting to find this info out somewhere. I wonder if the league would provide it, if asked.


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## ValleyFanatic

Beav89 said:


> I'm not trying to pick a fight either.  I also agree that other fan bases need to show up to the games as well.  God knows I'd go if I lived there--hell, I even drove cross country last month just to see ISU play up at UNI (which I will say that UNI's turnout mirrored why they no longer have a program next year).
> 
> I'm glad that you're here on the site to talk about this issue--it's been a great debate.  My curiosity got the best of me since I hadn't seen you on the forum before.  Nothing more than that.
> 
> :cheers:



I always love talking sports. 

It looks like ISU is making big strides with their recent stadium plan. I'm happy about it. 
You guys need to pick up some runs in this game today. I know your bats are there!


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## ValleyFanatic

I don't know if you guys knew or not, but you can watch the Sycamore-Illinois State game for free on the WSU website. It's synced with the Sycamore broadcast.

http://www.goshockers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=7500&ATCLID=3737186

Just go to the game and click on Live Video.


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## Beav89

ValleyFanatic said:


> I always love talking sports.
> 
> It looks like ISU is making big strides with their recent stadium plan. I'm happy about it.
> You guys need to pick up some runs in this game today. I know your bats are there!



I'm looking forward to scheduling a trip back out to TH next year to see how the stadium is coming along.  Last month was my first time there and it was apparent that they need some changes!

Thanks about today.  They've got the bases loaded right now, so hoping for the best.  It's been a very long, disappointing week as a Sycamore fan.


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## TJames

*hey wee-cheat-um fans.....*

i've seen you mention one instance that happened at indiana state several years ago...it was stopped and taken care of in a relatively quick manner....of course, i am surprised there was no mention at what instigated it.....wsu players urinating out of the window out of the back of the dugout onto fans as they walked by....

but i've not seen any comment on the things that the shockers have done in the past....and i can guarantee you that if we want to sit down and count ugly incidents, i think the sycamore fans and baseball program will come out much cleaner than gene stephenson's bunch.....

by the way, i noticed that when several newspapers recently did stories about the evansville player (molina) who was sucker pitched in the head by the wsu pitcher (christensen) a few years ago, there was a deafening silence from out west....no comment from stephenson, christensen, etc. 

as for the mvc tournament being played in springfield, illinois in 1995, i was there as the baseball sports information director at indiana state....yep, we won the tournament that year and advanced to the ncaa tournament...i remember that the wichita state people weren't happy because they were forced to play their games at earlier times than they were used to.....because they weren't running the show that year....they were treated like all the other teams in the mvc....i remember the coaches from the other schools joking that the shockers got the see how baseball life was in the rest of the league....lol....


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## SkinnyLu

ValleyFanatic said:


> I'm sorry about your experience. Some fans can go over the top. No doubt about it. However, regardless if you're cheering for your own squad or not, cheering loudly at an opposing venue is "asking for it". It's not really fair but that's how it is. And it's not just WSU, it's everywhere. I promise you that.
> 
> I agree that MSU would be the most deserving team to move on, but again, the Valley makes money off the tournament and that is something they will not defer. Are you suggesting the Valley rid all of its post-season tournaments in all sports?



Ok valleyfanatic, you must be a yankee fan as well.   Trust me, I'm 6'1" tall at. 190 lbs so I have no problems holding my own rooting for our team in the oppositions stadiums.   I've done it for years, including WSU.    I just do it respectfully to the team and players.  

Once the game is over then the fans should pack up and go home quietly.   The boys on both teams played their bums off last night and that should have been recognized.   The fans who could not control themselves for WSU should stay home.   And as a WSU fan you should want them to stay away as well.

If the bad fans for all teams can't control themselves to act like adults then I am proposing that the MVC baseball tournament go away.    I do believe with some 0 tollerance for idiots the tournament could be a pleasurable experience for all teams and fans.  

I would love to talk about this further in person.  We are in Wichita until Sunday and my schedule is pretty open for the next two days.    Heck, I will even buy the drinks.  Cause that's the kind of fan I am!


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## ValleyFanatic

I can't imagine players urinating onto fans outside of a dugout. That doesn't even seem possible. I must admit that I've never heard of that one before.

What do you want the "people out west" to say in response to an event that happened 10 years ago?

As far as 1995 goes, I'm sure those diehard fans who actually attended were spoiled and not used to it. Any reason why the league didn't just keep it Springfield?

Not even entertaining the financial aspects of it, I guess if you want the event to go neutral and look like a little league event with no more than a 100 or 2 attending the thing, then make your case to the commish. 

Now of course I'm speculating, but I'm willing to bet that there are more fans at the Indiana State-Illinois State in Wichita right now than if the same game was played at a neutral site. Maybe even Terre Haute.


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## ValleyFanatic

SkinnyLu said:


> Ok valleyfanatic, you must be a yankee fan as well.   Trust me, I'm 6'1" tall at. 190 lbs so I have no problems holding my own rooting for our team in the oppositions stadiums.   I've done it for years, including WSU.    I just do it respectfully to the team and players.
> 
> Once the game is over then the fans should pack up and go home quietly.   The boys on both teams played their bums off last night and that should have been recognized.   The fans who could not control themselves for WSU should stay home.   And as a WSU fan you should want them to stay away as well.
> 
> If the bad fans for all teams can't control themselves to act like adults then I am proposing that the MVC baseball tournament go away.    I do believe with some 0 tollerance for idiots the tournament could be a pleasurable experience for all teams and fans.
> 
> I would love to talk about this further in person.  We are in Wichita until Sunday and my schedule is pretty open for the next two days.    Heck, I will even buy the drinks.  Cause that's the kind of fan I am!



SkinnyLu, 

I am in no way condoning the actions you mentioned by some of the WSU fans you mentioned last night, if that was the case. I agree that it would be better if only the good fans came out to games. But my point was, it doesn't just happen in Wichita. It happens everywhere. I challenge you to attend an SEC or Big 12 baseball game in an opposing environment. You would think Wichita was royalty in comparison. But again, let's be frank. There's a-holes everywhere. Heckling is expected in baseball. And it happens. Now I agree, there are limits and boundaries that shouldn't be crossed, but if opposing fans get rowdy in an opposing environment, whether good-natured or not, you're gonna get a reaction. I expect that everywhere and it happens everywhere. 

I hope you enjoy your stay and I hope you don't take some of the stuff too personally. And please don't let a couple of probably drunk, big-mouthing retards make you think the whole fanbase is like that, because it is not. 

Cheers.


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## Beav89

Well, I can say that while the discussion about last night was bad, it's not the worst I've seen.  My husband and I had season tickets to the San Diego Chargers for 10 years, and we always expected to see some ugly stuff at the Raider game.  But, the year that there was a stabbing (guess who was holding the knife) in the stands during the game, that was the end of that for us.  The local television camara man happened to catch it on tape and the guy still plead Not Guilty in court, even with recorded evidence.


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## SycamoreFan317

ValleyFanatic,you are ok for a WSU fan.....lol  A lot of opposing fans come on these message boards and become instant aholes just looking to start something. I hope you come back on a regular basis to discuss sports with us.


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## Beav89

SycamoreFan317 said:


> ValleyFanatic,you are ok for a WSU fan.....lol  A lot of opposing fans come on these message boards and become instant aholes just looking to start something. I hope you come back on a regular basis to discuss sports with us.



I agree!


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## BankShot

ValleyFanatic said:


> I can't imagine players urinating onto fans outside of a dugout. That doesn't even seem possible. I must admit that I've never heard of that one before.
> 
> What do you want the "people out west" to say in response to an event that happened 10 years ago?




I recall that vulgar incident, TJ. Yes, the WSU players were standing on the dugout bench and facing the ventilation blocks when the incident(s) occurred. 

I'm curious re: that on-deck batter beaning incident 10 yrs. ago...who was the Shox
HC during that incident? Were any punitive measures ever taken within the WSU program?

You've sought to justify WSU's hosting of the MVC Post-Season by using the economics of Wichita attendance/ticket sales and MVC profits.  Any idea what happens to the MVC pocketbooks when this Wichita "home cooking" contributes to a _surprise_ elimination of a nationally-esteemed squad that fails to get an NCAA at-large berth? How much loss occurs to the MVC when their BEST SQUADS don't proceed thru the NCAA  tournament? Is this "integrity tradeoff" of perpetually designating Wichita as host, worth the cost to the MVC in the long run?

Someone previously suggested St. Louis as a yearly host? I'm sure the C of C could lobby to extend the "Arch Madness" to include MVC Baseball. A four-day road trip for the National League Cards doesn't seem a big deal, and I'm sure that St. Loui$ (which has a _few more baseball fans _than Wichita) would more than satisfy the lust of MVC profiteers. 

I've never been to Eck Field. How does it compare with ISU's?
1. Foul ball areas down the 1B & 3B lines? Behind HP?
2. Bullpen areas? Dugouts?
3. Outfield dimensions? Fence type/height?
4. Infield surface/soil/grass-type?
5. Seating capacity?
6. Lighting? Shadows?

These are just some of the "spices" of home cuisine that lend an edge to the Chef and give a digestive edge to the home boyz.


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## IndyTreeFan

Gotta give ValleyFanatic credit.  He's one of the most level-headed, civil Wichita State fans I've ever seen.  I didn't know you could actually have a civil discourse with anyone from Wichita.  That's a nice change of pace...:bigsmile:


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## SkinnyLu

*ValleyFanatic*

Hey Valley, thanks for the note back.  Today's game was a VERY pleasant experience even though we lost.   The staff at the WSU facility were awesome, the stadium is terrific, and the weather was perfect.   The only thing that could have made it perfect was if we won.  Unfortunately it was not our day.   

SkinnyLu


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## Divergence

BankShot said:


> I'm curious re: that on-deck batter beaning incident 10 yrs. ago...who was the Shox
> HC during that incident?



just a FYI, molina was not at the on-deck circle.  He was on the opposite side of homeplate from his team dugout.  In fact a ISU relief pitcher threw a ball to the backstop the other night and would have been pretty close to the location where Molina was standing.



> Were any punitive measures ever taken within the WSU program?



Ben Christenson was suspended for the rest of the year.  The pitching coach was suspended for a period of time (1 or 2 weeks).  Molina and Christenson settled out of civil court.



> You've sought to justify WSU's hosting of the MVC Post-Season by using the economics of Wichita attendance/ticket sales and MVC profits.



I don't think anybody is trying to justify anything about WSU hosting.  The fact is the MVC accepts bid for hosting the tournament - but it is open to anybody.  WSU bids on the tournament and since they are generally in the Top 10 in average attendance in the nation they are able to put together a very competitive bid.  The real issue is not that WSU is out-bidding everybody, the fact is nobody is bidding to get the tournament because it going they don't want to take the risk of the $$.




> Any idea what happens to the MVC pocketbooks when this Wichita "home cooking" contributes to a _surprise_ elimination of a nationally-esteemed squad that fails to get an NCAA at-large berth? How much loss occurs to the MVC when their BEST SQUADS don't proceed thru the NCAA  tournament? Is this "integrity tradeoff" of perpetually designating Wichita as host, worth the cost to the MVC in the long run?



I'm not quite sure what your trying to say here, so If I have mis-interpreted it please accept my apology but are you saying that: 

*"WSU is getting to the NCAA tournaments because they are the host and it actually holding back the truly best teams in the MVC"?*

I would say that the facts don't support that contention.

Fact 1:  WSU has won the MVC regular season championship in 18 out 22 years.  This would generally say that WSU has been the best team in the conference on a consistent basis and is not holding anybody back.  Plus when you look at WSU history you find they have consistently been in the top 25 year in and year and in the fact that they have equivalent of:

1 - National Championship
4 - final fours
3 - Elite 8's
2 - Sweet 16
26 - NCAA Appearance in 29 years

If anything, the rest of the league has been riding WSU coat tails.  This is one reason why WSU fans like Meggs and ISU because it would seem from our perspective that ISU want's to be a class program and compete on a national level and are working to that means.  There are other MVC schools who are content with just making the MVC tournament.

That type of consistency has been a problem for the MVC.  There generally has been only WSU year in and year out.  Occasionally a program (MSU, EU, CU) will have a couple good years and before any momentum is built they then fall back to the pack and somebody else emerges.  Makes is hard for any national respect.

Fact 2:  WSU is 12-10 when hosting the tournament.  WSU 3-4 when not hosting

I don't see this any evidence that WSU is getting some great unfair benefit because the MVC is allowing WSU to host.  That number will likely got to 12-11 after this week.




> Someone previously suggested St. Louis as a yearly host? I'm sure the C of C could lobby to extend the "Arch Madness" to include MVC Baseball. A four-day road trip for the National League Cards doesn't seem a big deal, and I'm sure that St. Loui$ (which has a _few more baseball fans _than Wichita) would more than satisfy the lust of MVC profiteers.



The question is does STL have _college baseball fans_.

I know a couple years ago the MVC was looking at STL as an option.  WSU players seemed quite excited about the opportunity to play in the cards stadium, but for whatever reason it did not occur.  There has been talk about of potentially being held in KC.  But I think lack of fan interest at most MVC schools probably scares the MVC from sending it to a neutral site.


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## BankShot

Excellent answers, Divergence. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Sounds like Molina was the leadoff batter. A few years ago, the NFHS instituted a new rule prohibiting HS players from leaving the on-deck circle and getting closer to the plate in an effort to synchronize their swing with the opposing pitcher.  Like all "habits," there was initially opposition to the rule, although most coaches understood the dangers of a possible errant throw by the IF warmup or possible pitcher wild pitch.


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## TJames

*hey valley fan....truce....lol...*

we obviously agree to disagree....lol......as i have stated in earlier comments, i don't dislike all things wichita.....they've got some great bars there.....lol.....went to several during my years while working as the assistant sports information director at indiana state.....lol....even celebrated a birthday out there one year....some friends even had a danc...err.....waitress.....sing happy birthday to me....lol...and i knew some nice people from out that way....

i guess my dislike comes from the snotty attitudes presented by various members of the shockers baseball coaching staff (stephenson and kemnitz), some of their past players and some of their media (can anyone really say mike kennedy without smirking?).....but the rest of you are okay...well, most of you....lol.....

now, as a sports  writer covering the indianapolis colts and the national football league, i have met one nice wsu alum and former player......scott mccloughan, the general manager of the san francisco 49ers....he speaks highly of "mean gene," so maybe there's hope for him yet....lol....

by the way, in the discussion over the christensen-molina incident, someone said that kemnitz was suspended over what happened....i know wsu baseball dynamics well enough that kemnitz wouldn't do anything unless he was told to do so by gene....i saw it first-hand on several occasions...including a lengthy home plate argument by kemnitz in an indiana state game during a mvc tournament game....brent didn't want to go out there but was told to by stephenson...i was standing in the isu dugout when it happened....and saw the whole thing....lol....


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## ValleyFanatic

Thanks for allowing me (and other Shocker fans) the opportunity to discuss baseball on here. You guys had a great year. Hope to see you guys again soon.


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## SycamoreFan317

*Commish finally answers*

Back on May 21 I sent a email to the Commissioner about rotating the baseball tourney or playing it on a neutral site, I finally got a response draw your own conclusions.

Rick...I found this in my "drafts" and never sent it to you, my apologies.  We will discuss this at our next meeting.  Doug


Rick:

Thanks for your note -- I appreciate your thoughts and understand your frustration.

We do have a bid process for selection of baseball tournament sites, with a minumum guarantee.  And, yes, in our conference, the money is indeed an important consideration -- that is a fact of life, especially these days.  Wichita State was the only school that submitted a bid for this year's tournament.  Missouri State's new $33 million Hammons Field was not available due to a scheduling conflict with the AA Cardinals franchise. 

Indiana State has done an awesome job in hosting conference championships -- in track and field this spring, for instance.

This past week, the league awarded five championship events.  Indiana State did not bid on any of those events (two tennis championships, baseball, softball and men's soccer), nor did three other league schools.   

When the baseball tournament was in Springfield, IL, we were paid a guarantee that was higher than any previous year of the tournament, but chose to not renew the agreement because there were few fans and the atmosphere wasn't of championship caliber. 

Keep in mind that our conference processes are very democratic.  Our administrators and presidents do the bery best they can to balance budgets, field competitive teams, and do whatever we can to market and develop each of our championship sports.

I will pass along your comments to our Championships Committee for future consideration.  Thanks again for taking the time to write, Rick.

Doug Elgin
Commissioner
Missouri Valley Conference
1818 Chouteau Avenue
St. Louis, Missouri 63103

office: 314-421-0339


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