# Judge rules on video game



## Patriot_Sycamore

http://www.cfoworld.com/technology/20061/judge-rules-ea-has-right-depict-college-football-players



Rules EA has right to use college player likeness for game.


I can see both sides, they use everythng but name on jersey....and those are just a download away.

Wonder how much EA pays the NCAA for the football and basketball games?


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## Jason Svoboda

I'm one that doesn't see both sides. College athletes are getting paid to play in the form of an education, room and board, books and the perks that go along with being a college athlete. If they don't want to be taken advantage of, they can apply for Pell grants and student loans and be a part of the general student populace. 

Hell, I'd love to be done paying student loans but I'm still paying on mine.


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## dr. bucket

Jason Svoboda said:


> I'm one that doesn't see both sides. College athletes are getting paid to play in the form of an education, room and board, books and the perks that go along with being a college athlete. If they don't want to be taken advantage of, they can apply for Pell grants and student loans and be a part of the general student populace.
> 
> Hell, I'd love to be done paying student loans but I'm still paying on mine.




all of which probably translates to something less than the minimum wage given the time they have to put in. you make it sound like such an easy life.

if it looks like slavery. sounds like slavery. walks like slavery. it just might be slavery.


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> all of which probably translates to something less than the minimum wage given the time they have to put in. you make it sound like such an easy life.
> 
> if it looks like slavery. sounds like slavery. walks like slavery. it just might be slavery.



I am in favor of the Olympic model but literally paying these kids is probably wrong...


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## Chief_Quabachi

dr. bucket said:


> all of which probably translates to something less than the minimum wage given the time they have to put in. you make it sound like such an easy life.
> 
> if it looks like slavery. sounds like slavery. walks like slavery. it just might be slavery.



If the above can be accepted as probable, I then offer that Social Security is a PONZI SCHEME.......because it looks like a ponzi scheme. sounds like a ponzi scheme. walks like a ponzi scheme. it just MIGHT be a ponzi scheme.


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## Patriot_Sycamore

Social Security is for sure a Ponzi scheme.........



The NCAA is making a ton of money off of these athletes, use some of that money to help schools like ISU support training tables, help cover some travel expenses. How much of these profits go back to the member schools?


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## 4Q_iu

Patriot_Sycamore said:


> Social Security is for sure a Ponzi scheme.........
> 
> 
> 
> The NCAA is making a ton of money off of these athletes, use some of that money to help schools like ISU support training tables, help cover some travel expenses. *How much of these profits go back to the member schools?*



Likely far more than anyone of us realizes.


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## Jason Svoboda

I don't know who is being serious here, but some of this nonsense posted is ridiculous. That said, what I would be behind a revenue sharing model by the NCAA to the schools to help cover additional luxuries for athletes as mentioned above. Training tables, better travel accomodations, etc. Also, what sort of soft dollar cost can be put on the college athlete experience? The travel, the opportunity to play in the NCAA tournament, etc. 

If someone really thinks they are a slave, they should quit immediately. The problem with this bullshit slave ideology is that student-athletes and parents don't put a high enough value on that college degree. 3.1% of high school basketball players go on to play college ball. From there, only 1.2% go on to be professionals. So 98.8% of college basketball players will enter the work force yet if you look at APR rates, 98.8% of of these kids aren't graduating across the board.

If a player wants to forgo the compensation offered by college programs, they are allowed to do so and seek a professional position overseas. Brandon Jennings decided to skip Arizona and play in Italy. Or, you can join the general student populace.

Stats: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Issues/Recruiting/Probability+of+Going+Pro


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## 4Q_iu

Chief_Quabachi said:


> If the above can be accepted as probable, I then offer that Social Security is a PONZI SCHEME.......because it looks like a ponzi scheme. sounds like a ponzi scheme. walks like a ponzi scheme. it just MIGHT be a ponzi scheme.



In general, don't ponzi schemes benefit one person?


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## Sackalot

dr. bucket said:


> all of which probably translates to something less than the minimum wage given the time they have to put in. you make it sound like such an easy life.
> 
> if it looks like slavery. sounds like slavery. walks like slavery. it just might be slavery.



Outlandish statement much???  Wow that is crazy talk.  You talk about student athletes like they went off to war and defended our freedom and they were put in serious mortal danger or that they are flogged daily by their coaches..remember this is a sport they are playing.  They are the most well taken care of and most supported student population on any college campus.  The student athletes have a better deal than the presidential scholars have...the students that have 4.0+ in HS, the valedictoirans that come to ISU?  COME ON??  The student athletes are deserving and I love college sports, but EA sports using the likeness of a college student athlete on their game equates to slavery???  That is a bit over the top!

Like Boda said, the value of a college education can be immeasurable.  The unemployment rate for college grads is 4%, compared to almost 10% for the entire population.  College grads on average make more than $20K per year that those without one.  And if you would like I will hand over my Nelnet bill to any student athlete that wants to complain.  And by the way, as far as better travel accomodation????  I have traveled over 1,300 miles to get to a fraternity meeting in a broken down Chevy Astro van with 12 people in it, didn't complain once, loved it, enjoyed every minute of it (I might have been drunk most of the trip) and stayed in a hotel that had one bed and you would not want to sleep on the floor at all, trust me and I have done that several times because I wanted to be a part of it.  my point is that travel accomodations are bunk in my opinion, you want to play, you put up with it.  It is not like these athletes are staying in motels that rent out per hour or anything and ISU might need a bus or more money to rent a bus to make a road trip a little nicer, but come on!!!.


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## Chief_Quabachi

First, i agree with Jason 100% with regard to paying college athletes.

To address 4Q_iu's question of who benefits. Not necessarily does a ponzi scheme benefit only one person. Madoff's entire family benefited from his scheme. Look at the mechanics of both. There will be some slight variances which basically are disguised by terminology.

My dad Never drew a penny form Soc. Sec. as he died at age 51 after paying into it for his working years which was 6 months prior to his death. Due to the "Blackout Period" my mother never received Soc. Sec. survivor benefits from dad's contributions until her age 62, 13 yrs. after dad's death.

I sold products that beat Soc. Sec. hands down which were not subject to the ups and downs of the stock market. Those products offered many varied settlement options not available with Soc. Sec..


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## sycamorebacker

dr. bucket said:


> if it looks like slavery. sounds like slavery. walks like slavery. it just might be slavery.



Well I guess it isn't because it doesn't sound like it, walk like it, or look like it.


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## 4Q_iu

*Too many folks...*



Chief_Quabachi said:


> First, i agree with Jason 100% with regard to paying college athletes.
> 
> To address 4Q_iu's question of who benefits. Not necessarily does a ponzi scheme benefit only one person. Madoff's entire family benefited from his scheme. Look at the mechanics of both. There will be some slight variances which basically are disguised by terminology.
> 
> My dad Never drew a penny form Soc. Sec. as he died at age 51 after paying into it for his working years which was 6 months prior to his death. Due to the "Blackout Period" my mother never received Soc. Sec. survivor benefits from dad's contributions until her age 62, 13 yrs. after dad's death.
> 
> I sold products that beat Soc. Sec. hands down which were not subject to the ups and downs of the stock market. Those products offered many varied settlement options not available with Soc. Sec..



Don't understand what Social Security is; and what it is is a non-Ponzi Scheme.

For if it IS a Ponzi Scheme; please list all of the folks who benefit from this "scheme?"

If you DO, add yourself as the No. benefitor.

Since EVERY Administration / Congress since ~1964 has dipped into the trust fund for ~$4T and spent it on OTHER government programs or keeping taxes rates LOWER than they would have; WE'VE all benefited; directly and in-directly.

Paying college athletes?  On top of what they're receiving now?

It sounds good in principle BUT what do you pay them?  WHO provides the $$$, does the All-American DE get more than the top-ranked tennis player or golfer?


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## dr. bucket

let me put it in a very simple analogy.

you work for a company and receive no salary or other wages. through your work your company realizes hundreds of millions of dollars but you do not share in its good fortune by being given a bonus, a stipend or any kind of wage. however, the company does send you to a bunch of seminars and you are allowed to eat in the company cafeteria.

oh sure you can leave your company for another similar company, which you will be prohibited from fully joining for a year. at your new company, you will receive no salary or other wages. through your work your company will realize hundreds of millions of dollars but you will not share in its good fortune by being given a bonus, a stipend or any kind of wage. the good news is that while you are waiting for that year to join your new company, you will be sent to seminars and allowed to eat in the company cafeteria.

please keep in mind, the contract which you will sign at any company binds you for a period of four years; however, the institution is only bound for one year.

there it is


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## dr. bucket

sycamorebacker said:


> Well I guess it isn't because it doesn't sound like it, walk like it, or look like it.



1
: drudgery, toil
2
: submission to a dominating influence
3
a : the state of a person who is a chattel of another

sounding, walking and looking pretty close


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## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> Don't understand what Social Security is; and what it is is a non-Ponzi Scheme.
> 
> Paying college athletes?  On top of what they're receiving now?
> 
> It sounds good in principle BUT what do you pay them?  WHO provides the $$$, does the All-American DE get more than the top-ranked tennis player or golfer?



as is the custom in capitalism, the customer/consumer pays the dollars and those who generate the revenue or cause the revenue to be generated benefit from the revenue. so basically we are talking about basketball and football. the top-ranked tennis player or golfer get only what they are worth, which in this case would most likely be zilch. 

to handle this in any other manner would smack of socialism (egad!). it would then be up to the institution to determine the value of those non-revenue sports (again with a tip of the hat to good old capitalism)  and decide to underwrite them though donations, student fees (oh please don't tax me), operating funds or some combination of these three. or let them go.

let's keep socialism out of college athletics!


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## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> as is the custom in capitalism, the customer/consumer pays the dollars and those who generate the revenue or cause the revenue to be generated benefit from the revenue. so basically we are talking about basketball and football. the top-ranked tennis player or golfer get only what they are worth, which in this case would most likely be zilch.
> 
> to handle this in any other manner would smack of socialism (egad!). it would then be up to the institution to determine the value of those non-revenue sports (again with a tip of the hat to good old capitalism)  and decide to underwrite them though donations, student fees (oh please don't tax me), operating funds or some combination of these three. or let them go.
> 
> let's keep socialism out of college athletics!



Universities / Colleges are not businesses that exist to provide entertainment of an athletic nature.

If all of athletes were required to perform without receiving ANY remuneration; they would have a basis of complaints.  

How many WALK-ONs athletes are complaining?

You hear complaints from the full-ride SCHOLARSHIP athletes at the BCS schools.

Every kid is free to walk away and attend (and expense) college like the MAJORITY of college students.


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## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> let me put it in a very simple analogy.
> 
> you work for a company and receive no salary or other wages. through your work your company realizes hundreds of millions of dollars but you do not share in its good fortune by being given a bonus, a stipend or any kind of wage. however, the company does send you to a bunch of seminars and you are allowed to eat in the company cafeteria.
> 
> oh sure you can leave your company for another similar company, which you will be prohibited from fully joining for a year. at your new company, you will receive no salary or other wages. through your work your company will realize hundreds of millions of dollars but you will not share in its good fortune by being given a bonus, a stipend or any kind of wage. the good news is that while you are waiting for that year to join your new company, you will be sent to seminars and allowed to eat in the company cafeteria.
> 
> please keep in mind, the contract which you will sign at any company binds you for a period of four years; however, the institution is only bound for one year.
> 
> there it is



In your analogy; you've completely overlooked the scholarships that the 'worker' receives.


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## Sackalot

Doc, I read everything you are saying, and I do understand the argument, but it holds no water at all.  The scholarship is their pay.  Dependent upon the school that can be upwards of $100,000+ for 4 years.  In some cases even more than that...ND?  How many 18 year olds get paid that kind of money?  Very, very few.  
Average Cost
The average cost of a bachelor's degree is $25,143 per year at a private college and $6,585 at a public college or university, according to the 2008-09 reports released by the College Board. About 56 percent of students pay less than $9,000 in tuition and fees per year, the board found, while only 9 percent pay more than $33,000. These averages do not include room and board.

Multiple organizations and websites say the average cost of a bachelor degree ranges from about 11K per year up to over 40K per year for some privates.  So lets just go with an average of $25K.  That means $100,000 is paid, on the student athletes behalf on average throughout this country (when a student is on full ride).  I can tell you that I would have jumped at the chance to make $25,000 per year as a 19 year old sophomore.  Now, do all of them have money to run out and buy the new Blu-ray on tuesday, maybe not, do they have money to buy an iPad, maybe not.  Are they taken care of, provided room and board, clothing, free books and tuition and still more perks?  YES.  It is not slavery...and you don't mention the free housing in your analogy either....

Keep trying though...I enjoy your efforts to try to convince me and others that it is slavery...lol.  I will say that student athelets should be given more of a stipend because they are not allowed to have a side job.  But you have to understand that sports are a part of a university to create school spirit, provide for entertainment on the campus and ultimately to provide for academic needs on the campus.  I love college sports and watch them almost exclusively other than the NFL.  But college sports are not an "industry" they are subsection of a entire university system.  If all college sports went away tomorrow (god forbid) universities would still persist and exist.  Colleges do not exist so atheletic students can play a sport and get paid to do so.  It is against the mission of the entire university system...wow I just sounded like our old friend.   

You get my point.  Education is the reason for a college to exist....sports are a portion of that, without question, but just because college sports brings in milliions of dollars does not mean that a student athlete should get a share of it.  They get their share with the incredible scholarships that most receive.  The entire university should get that share and use it to better provide education in various educational areas while providing tremendous entertainment and a rallying point for students, alumni and community


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## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> In your analogy; you've completely overlooked the scholarships that the 'worker' receives.




those are the expenses incurred in sending employees to seminars, i.e., classes


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## SCollie76

dr. bucket said:


> those are the expenses incurred in sending employees to seminars, i.e., classes



Wow... that may be the most simplistic view of a scholarship I have ever seen.  

Apparently, after all these years I didn't realize that I don't get paid at work either - my employer just pays for expenses that I incur in my everyday life, i.e., light bill, mortgage...


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## dr. bucket

Sackalot said:


> But you have to understand that sports are a part of a university to create school spirit, provide for entertainment on the campus and ultimately to provide for academic needs on the campus.
> 
> But college sports are not an "industry" they are subsection of a entire university system.  If all college sports went away tomorrow (god forbid) universities would still persist and exist.  Colleges do not exist so atheletic students can play a sport and get paid to do so.  It is against the mission of the entire university system...wow I just sounded like our old friend.
> 
> You get my point.  Education is the reason for a college to exist....sports are a portion of that, without question, but just because college sports brings in milliions of dollars does not mean that a student athlete should get a share of it.  They get their share with the incredible scholarships that most receive.  The entire university should get that share and use it to better provide education in various educational areas while providing tremendous entertainment and a rallying point for students, alumni and community




where is it written that universities are obligated to provide athletic entertainment and other boolah-boolah horse***t?

the money raised by the athletic department stays in the athletic department, partly to fund non-revenue sports, it does not go for academic needs.

if you think that college athletics is not an industry for some, you need to visit some big 10 or big 12 schools' athletic departments.

yes education is the reason for a college to exist but our priorities have become misplaced


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> those are the expenses incurred in sending employees to seminars, i.e., classes



That's a Really expensive seminar


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## dr. bucket

SCollie76 said:


> Wow... that may be the most simplistic view of a scholarship I have ever seen.
> 
> Apparently, after all these years I didn't realize that I don't get paid at work either - my employer just pays for expenses that I incur in my everyday life, i.e., light bill, mortgage...



it's called an analogy.


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## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> where is it written that universities are obligated to provide athletic entertainment and other boolah-boolah horse***t?


 Doubt it's written anywhere; doesn't mean it won't continue to occur.



dr. bucket said:


> the money raised by the athletic department stays in the athletic department, partly to fund non-revenue sports, it does not go for academic needs.


 This depends on the school.  Some schools send athletic revenue money TO the academic side; in other's it's the reverse.  There was a study completed; results published that there are approximately 10 schools that turn a 'profit' with their athletic departments.  That is to say; they only spend athletic revenue and athletic donations within the athletic department.  They keep all money because they 'earn' it all AND receive ZERO from the academic side.  I'll have to check on the list.



dr. bucket said:


> if you think that college athletics is not an industry for some, you need to visit some big 10 or big 12 schools' athletic departments.


  Of course it's an industry and the MAJORITY of the 'workers' are compensated for their 'work.'



dr. bucket said:


> yes education is the reason for a college to exist but our priorities have become misplaced


  Again, agree; but this is nothing new.  Is it any worse than members of 'lucky sperm' club* are held in high regard??

*=Paris Hilton, Nicole Ritchie, the Kardashians...


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> it's called an analogy.



Possibly a bad one...seminars don't make you more money for the rest of your life...


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## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> Doubt it's written anywhere; doesn't mean it won't continue to occur.
> 
> This depends on the school.  Some schools send athletic revenue money TO the academic side; in other's it's the reverse.  There was a study completed; results published that there are approximately 10 schools that turn a 'profit' with their athletic departments.  That is to say; they only spend athletic revenue and athletic donations within the athletic department.  They keep all money because they 'earn' it all AND receive ZERO from the academic side.  I'll have to check on the list.
> 
> Of course it's an industry and the MAJORITY of the 'workers' are compensated for their 'work.'
> 
> Again, agree; but this is nothing new.  Is it any worse than members of 'lucky sperm' club* are held in high regard??
> 
> *=Paris Hilton, Nicole Ritchie, the Kardashians...



maybe insects like these are held in high regard because we have compromised the values of our educational system


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## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Possibly a bad one...seminars don't make you more money for the rest of your life...



neither does a piece of paper. a person makes the money.

you know like the guns don't kill people, people kill people line of reasoning.

now you may argue that a person with a certain piece of paper -- degree or certificate of attendance at a seminar -- does on the average make more money but the average is a red herring. not everyone does.

btw neiher steve jobs nor bill gates have college degrees


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> maybe insects like these are held in high regard because we have compromised the values of our educational system



Insects? I don't like any of the people mentioned BUT that's a bit too far


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## 4Q_iu

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Possibly a bad one...seminars don't make you more money for the rest of your life...



 :bigsmile: :bigsmile: You OBVIOUSLY haven't attended a Carleton Sheets seminar! :bigsmile: :bigsmile:


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## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> maybe insects like these are held in high regard because we have compromised the values of our educational system



No doubt; don't forget to include poor/zero parenting


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## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> No doubt; don't forget to include poor/zero parenting



don;t forget to include video games, ipods, facebook and rap/hip hop


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> neither does a piece of paper. a person makes the money.
> 
> you know like the guns don't kill people, people kill people line of reasoning.
> 
> now you may argue that a person with a certain piece of paper -- degree or certificate of attendance at a seminar -- does on the average make more money but the average is a red herring. not everyone does.
> 
> btw neiher steve jobs nor bill gates have college degrees



Ok. Steve jobs and bill gates are both big exceptions to that rule...to say that my college degree has nothing to do with my salary or how I got my current job is just an asinine argument. The degree helps the person in education and definition of status. Now I am no genius but I have a person I went to high school with who is much more intelligent than I with similar interests. He works for me because he didn't go to college...


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## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> don;t forget to include video games, ipods, facebook and rap/hip hop



I place all of those (execpt rap/hip hop) in 'poor parenting' -- nothing wrong with technology but some parents put zero barriers on it.


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## Callmedoc

4Q_iu said:


> I place all of those (execpt rap/hip hop) in 'poor parenting' -- nothing wrong with technology but some parents put zero barriers on it.



Tend to concur with this...its amazing with all of the tools with tech for parents to control things they truly do nothing... really have no problem with hip hop in this guys opinion...


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## 4Q_iu

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Tend to concur with this...its amazing with all of the tools with tech for parents to control things they truly do nothing... really have no problem with hip hop in this guys opinion...



no doubt some parents feel overwhelmed but it they would start earlier; back up their spouse...

as to rap; it's just a way to shorten crap.

Is it leading to the downfall of the nation?  Thought Jazz, no wait, Rockabilly, I mean Rock and Roll, no wait  it was psychedelic rock, I mean punk, no wait acid rock....

No it was Elvis, no Little Richard, I mean, Jerry Lee Lewis, no dammit, The Beatles, yeah, The Beatles...  No, it was the Rolling Stones,   wait, I mean Jefferson Airplane, I mean Jefferson Starship, no dammit, Starship...  No, it was the Dead, definitely the Grateful Dead;  no, it was the Ramones, or was it Aretha, no Martha and the Vandellas, no, Ronnie and the Ronettes


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## indstate33

Dr,

Your "slavery" analogy is one of the dumbest things I have heard in my life.

Check Wikipedia is you need to learn what "slavery" is.

Great points by everyone else.


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## dr. bucket

indstate33 said:


> Dr,
> 
> Your "slavery" analogy is one of the dumbest things I have heard in my life.
> 
> Check Wikipedia is you need to learn what "slavery" is.
> 
> Great points by everyone else.



thanks for the tip but i chose to use the dictionary; you do know that wikipedia is not a reliable source as far as facts go because of the way its material is supplied.


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## Jason Svoboda

dr. bucket said:


> thanks for the tip but i chose to use the dictionary; you do know that wikipedia is not a reliable source as far as facts go because of the way its material is supplied.


Then you may want to go purchase another one.


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## dr. bucket

Jason Svoboda said:


> Then you may want to go purchase another one.



another wikipedia? i thought there was only one


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## Jason Svoboda

dr. bucket said:


> another wikipedia? i thought there was only one


Nope, another dictionary because the slavery definition is off in yours. May pick up a better analogy book, too.


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## dr. bucket

Jason Svoboda said:


> Nope, another dictionary because the slavery definition is off in yours. May pick up a better analogy book, too.



straight from the dictionary:

1: drudgery, toil
2: submission to a dominating influence
3: the state of a person who is a chattel of another

do you have another that says different?

btw according to the dictionary my analogy is just fine

analogy 
1. agreement or similarity, esp in a certain limited number of features or details
2. a comparison made to show such a similarity to draw an analogy between an atom and the solar system


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> straight from the dictionary:
> 
> 1: drudgery, toil
> 2: submission to a dominating influence
> 3: the state of a person who is a chattel of another
> 
> do you have another that says different?
> 
> btw according to the dictionary my analogy is just fine
> 
> analogy
> 1. agreement or similarity, esp in a certain limited number of features or details
> 2. a comparison made to show such a similarity to draw an analogy between an atom and the solar system


Lol he just means they are bad analogies...which they are.


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## Jason Svoboda

dr. bucket said:


> straight from the dictionary:
> 
> 1: drudgery, toil
> 2: submission to a dominating influence
> 3: the state of a person who is a chattel of another
> 
> do you have another that says different?


 
So student-athletes aren't free to quit the team if they wish at any time? They aren't chattel (personal property) of a coach, the football program or the University.

If any one of the players got up this morning and decided that they no longer wanted to deal with the "toil" of weights or the "drudgery" of practice, they could do so. They could walk away from their scholarship and become a general student or they could move on to another "plantation" if they had any remaining eligibility. Man, I bet real slaves wish they could have had those perks.


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## Chief_Quabachi

I have taken two state exams to secure a license to engage in two different occupations in Indiana. I was taught that terminology of one word in a question can determine whether a question is true or false.
Knowing the definition of "chattel" makes a difference in this discussion. "Chattel" with respect to ownership does NOT include humans nor real estate. It does include cattle. Last time I checked humans and cattle are two different things.
therefore, I submit that your analogy using "chattel" does not meet the legal argument supporting athletes are property of and submissive to athletic departments, and as a result athletes are not slaves.


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## dr. bucket

Chief_Quabachi said:


> I have taken two state exams to secure a license to engage in two different occupations in Indiana. I was taught that terminology of one word in a question can determine whether a question is true or false.
> Knowing the definition of "chattel" makes a difference in this discussion. "Chattel" with respect to ownership does NOT include humans nor real estate. It does include cattle. Last time I checked humans and cattle are two different things.
> therefore, I submit that your analogy using "chattel" does not meet the legal argument supporting athletes are property of and submissive to athletic departments, and as a result athletes are not slaves.



you might want to check the dictionary on that one

cattle
1 domesticated quadrupeds held as property or raised for use; specifically : bovine animals on a farm or ranch
2 : human beings especially en masse 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cattle?show=0&t=1316097180

chattel

1: an item of tangible movable or immovable property except real estate and things (as buildings) connected with real property
2: slave, bondman 

chattel and cattle derive from the same middle english root (cattel) which itself arises from lating words for capital


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## dr. bucket

Jason Svoboda said:


> So student-athletes aren't free to quit the team if they wish at any time? They aren't chattel (personal property) of a coach, the football program or the University.
> 
> If any one of the players got up this morning and decided that they no longer wanted to deal with the "toil" of weights or the "drudgery" of practice, they could do so. They could walk away from their scholarship and become a general student or they could move on to another "plantation" if they had any remaining eligibility. Man, I bet real slaves wish they could have had those perks.



well if they walked away from their scholarships they wouldn't be slaves anymore, making it a moot point.

"They could walk away from their scholarship and become a general student or they could move on to another "plantation" if they had any remaining eligibility."

that is if massa released them from their indentured status in the form of their letter of intent. funny how the slaves have no rights within the system (only outside) and massa holds all the cards.

we need a harriet tubman today to lead these young men to freedom (from the hypocritical ncaa)


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> well if they walked away from their scholarships they wouldn't be slaves anymore, making it a moot point.
> 
> "They could walk away from their scholarship and become a general student or they could move on to another "plantation" if they had any remaining eligibility."
> 
> that is if massa released them from their indentured status in the form of their letter of intent. funny how the slaves have no rights within the system (only outside) and massa holds all the cards.
> 
> we need a harriet tubman today to lead these young men to freedom (from the hypocritical ncaa)



I have heard some crazy things in life. I mean seriously. In high school someone said to me, "you are gonna play in the NFL." this statement comparing NCAA athletes to slaves is A the most offensive to African Americans because clearly the two Arent even comparable and B the farthest out there. That is all I have to say on the subject.


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> I have heard some crazy things in life. I mean seriously. In high school someone said to me, "you are gonna play in the NFL." this statement comparing NCAA athletes to slaves is A the most offensive to African Americans because clearly the two Arent even comparable and B the farthest out there. That is all I have to say on the subject.



enslaved peoples throughout history extend far beyond those from africa

asian and white athlete-"students" are just as much ncaa slaves as their african-descended brethren


----------



## 4Q_iu

*Seriously?!*



dr. bucket said:


> enslaved peoples throughout history extend far beyond those from africa
> 
> asian and white athlete-"students" are just as much ncaa slaves as their african-descended brethren



Show me ONE NCAA or NAIA or USCAA ( http://theuscaa.com/landing/index ) athlete who is FORCED into your warped view of "slavery?"

Every kid on athletic scholarship can opt out; E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E of them.

Slaves do not have the option of walking away


----------



## Jason Svoboda

dr. bucket said:


> well if they walked away from their scholarships they wouldn't be slaves anymore, making it a moot point.


Man, I learn something new every day. I didn't know man freely entered into slavery. Sounds like terrible decision making to me. If they aren't getting anything out of it, what causes them to make such a poor decision? Stupidity? Poor parental guidance? I'm intrigued... tell me more!



dr. bucket said:


> "They could walk away from their scholarship and become a general student or they could move on to another "plantation" if they had any remaining eligibility."
> 
> that is if massa released them from their indentured status in the form of their letter of intent. funny how the slaves have no rights within the system (only outside) and massa holds all the cards.
> 
> we need a harriet tubman today to lead these young men to freedom (from the hypocritical ncaa)


C'mon, really? LOIs are good for one year. They could openly transfer anywhere they choose after their contract is up. Don't like the terms of the contract? Don't sign it. That goes for everything in life.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> Show me ONE NCAA or NAIA or USCAA ( http://theuscaa.com/landing/index ) athlete who is FORCED into your warped view of "slavery?"
> 
> Every kid on athletic scholarship can opt out; E-V-E-R-Y-O-N-E of them.
> 
> Slaves do not have the option of walking away


 
Not only that, but they OPTED IN to slavery. Fancy that.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> Not only that, but they OPTED IN to slavery. Fancy that.



Yep, I hear ya --- you should see the tv ads they run in VA for slavery!  Shoot, they make it sound just wonderful!!  And the response!  We've gotta people quitting their day jobs JUST to become Slaves!!

America -- What A Country!!!


----------



## Callmedoc

The reason LOIs favor schools is stop recruits from blowing up in their early school years then transferring to bcs schools.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Dgreenwell3 said:


> The reason LOIs favor schools is stop recruits from blowing up in their early school years then transferring to bcs schools.


Even then it doesn't matter. They are one year deals and a player is free to leave. BCS players get around this by transferring down or to a community college if they can't get a release from the school. For instance, Konrad Reuland wanted to leave ND for Stanford but Charlie Weis wouldn't allow it. So he left to a small community college in California and then on to Stanford after his ND LOI expired.


----------



## Callmedoc

Jason Svoboda said:


> Even then it doesn't matter. They are one year deals and a player is free to leave. BCS players get around this by transferring down or to a community college if they can't get a release from the school. For instance, Konrad Reuland wanted to leave ND for Stanford but Charlie Weis wouldn't allow it. So he left to a small community college in California and then on to Stanford after his ND LOI expired.



Exactly. Tbh people who say that the current system is broke really annoy me...it works or a guy like Cam Newton wouldn't be playing on Sunday's


----------



## dr. bucket

Jason Svoboda said:


> Man, I learn something new every day. I didn't know man freely entered into slavery. Sounds like terrible decision making to me. If they aren't getting anything out of it, what causes them to make such a poor decision? Stupidity? Poor parental guidance? I'm intrigued... tell me more!
> 
> 
> C'mon, really? LOIs are good for one year. They could openly transfer anywhere they choose after their contract is up. Don't like the terms of the contract? Don't sign it. That goes for everything in life.




loi's are for four years; scholarships are for one. and if you're not released from your letter, you'll sit for two years instead of one after your transfer.


----------



## dr. bucket

Jason Svoboda said:


> Even then it doesn't matter. They are one year deals and a player is free to leave. BCS players get around this by transferring down or to a community college if they can't get a release from the school. For instance, Konrad Reuland wanted to leave ND for Stanford but Charlie Weis wouldn't allow it. So he left to a small community college in California and then on to Stanford after his ND LOI expired.



so his freedom of choice was abridged


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> The reason LOIs favor schools is stop recruits from blowing up in their early school years then transferring to bcs schools.



so it's for protection of their property and in essence an abridgement of their constitutional rights


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Exactly. Tbh people who say that the current system is broke really annoy me...it works or a guy like Cam Newton wouldn't be playing on Sunday's



and his father wouldn't have been able to ask for $160,000


----------



## Jason Svoboda

dr. bucket said:


> loi's are for four years; scholarships are for one. and if you're not released from your letter, you'll sit for two years instead of one after your transfer.


 
Did this recently change? The NCAA website does not state this anywhere:

AGREEMENT: By signing an NLI and athletics financial aid agreement, a prospective student-athlete *agrees to attend the signing institution for one academic year and receive a written offer of athletics financial aid for one academic year*, provided the prospective student-athlete meets all applicable university, conference and NCAA regulations for receipt of financial aid.

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect...ERES&CACHEID=cfefa2004e0dc6e994fbf41ad6fc8b25

When you sign the National Letter of Intent you *agree to attend for one academic year* the institution listed on the Letter in exchange for that institution awarding athletics financial aid for *one academic year*. 

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect...tional+Letter+of+Intent+what+do+I+agree+to+do


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> and his father wouldn't have been able to ask for $160,000



Then how was he a slave? You cant make your snarky remarks both ways


----------



## Callmedoc

Jason Svoboda said:


> Did this recently change? The NCAA website does not state this anywhere:
> 
> AGREEMENT: By signing an NLI and athletics financial aid agreement, a prospective student-athlete *agrees to attend the signing institution for one academic year and receive a written offer of athletics financial aid for one academic year*, provided the prospective student-athlete meets all applicable university, conference and NCAA regulations for receipt of financial aid.
> 
> http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect...ERES&CACHEID=cfefa2004e0dc6e994fbf41ad6fc8b25
> 
> When you sign the National Letter of Intent you *agree to attend for one academic year* the institution listed on the Letter in exchange for that institution awarding athletics financial aid for *one academic year*.
> 
> http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect...tional+Letter+of+Intent+what+do+I+agree+to+do



It's called being uneducated and feeling like no one can be smarter than you. It isn't them LOI that holds a student. It is the transfer rules that exist so players don't transfer to bigger schools their senior years...I agree with you Jason.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

dr. bucket said:


> so it's for protection of their property and in essence an abridgement of their constitutional rights


I'm with you on the transfer rules. However, those are left up to the coach, conference, etc. Weis wouldn't let anyone transfer to a future scheduled opponent. I believe the Big 10 and SEC also has similar rules that all of the coaches abide by unless the kid works around them. I believe Boren at Ohio State did that after leaving Michigan -- was a walk-on.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> I'm with you on the transfer rules. However, those are left up to the coach, conference, etc. Weis wouldn't let anyone transfer to a future scheduled opponent. I believe the Big 10 and SEC also has similar rules that all of the coaches abide by unless the kid works around them. I believe Boren at Ohio State did that after leaving Michigan -- was a walk-on.



I believe the Big Ten allows transfers between schools; what it prohibits, is the award of an athletic scholarship at the 2nd school.  (Lawrence Funderburke to Ohio State...)

Keeps the programs from poaching kids AFTER their enrolled; poaching BEFORE is at the ethical discretion of the coach...


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> Did this recently change? The NCAA website does not state this anywhere:
> 
> AGREEMENT: By signing an NLI and athletics financial aid agreement, a prospective student-athlete *agrees to attend the signing institution for one academic year and receive a written offer of athletics financial aid for one academic year*, provided the prospective student-athlete meets all applicable university, conference and NCAA regulations for receipt of financial aid.
> 
> http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect...ERES&CACHEID=cfefa2004e0dc6e994fbf41ad6fc8b25



Doesn't the drop down in classification nullify any loss of eligibility?

(With Eric Manual, uk recruit of 1987 the exception)

Manual's recruit was so BLATANTLY tainted (by uk AND himself), the NCAA banned him from ANY level of NCAA MBB play.

He ended up at Okla City Uni (NAIA) and led the Stars to 1-2 NAIA titles...


----------



## dr. bucket

Jason Svoboda said:


> Did this recently change? The NCAA website does not state this anywhere:
> 
> AGREEMENT: By signing an NLI and athletics financial aid agreement, a prospective student-athlete *agrees to attend the signing institution for one academic year and receive a written offer of athletics financial aid for one academic year*, provided the prospective student-athlete meets all applicable university, conference and NCAA regulations for receipt of financial aid.
> 
> http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect...ERES&CACHEID=cfefa2004e0dc6e994fbf41ad6fc8b25
> 
> When you sign the National Letter of Intent you *agree to attend for one academic year* the institution listed on the Letter in exchange for that institution awarding athletics financial aid for *one academic year*.
> 
> http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect...tional+Letter+of+Intent+what+do+I+agree+to+do



it's a very slick use of language meant to obscure the facts. why then do you not sign a letter a year for each subsequent year and why in each subsequent year must you ask for a release from your letter? (if it's a one-year thing) 

it's a defacto four year agreement. they can attempt to hide it any way they want but it's still what it is. they have you for for years or they will impsoe a penalty for transferring

in a sense, what is going on that you are signing a document that binds you for four years to a system that makes one year awards for four years if the institution chooses to do).

most athlete-"students" aren't aware they are under no obligation to sign an nli but one can see why institutions favor it for the leverage it affords them over their property.

it's very lawerly and the devil's in the details. it is what it is. and that is pretty slick


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> I believe the Big Ten allows transfers between schools; what it prohibits, is the award of an athletic scholarship at the 2nd school.  (Lawrence Funderburke to Ohio State...)
> 
> Keeps the programs from poaching kids AFTER their enrolled; poaching BEFORE is at the ethical discretion of the coach...



and gives leverage to instituions


----------



## 4Q_iu

*Again...*



dr. bucket said:


> and gives leverage to instituions



Show me all of the kids who are being exploited.

It's a TWO-WAY street.  The kids are not FORCED into participating.

Let them gain admission to college, pay for it themselves; they can get their basketball or football or other sports "fix" by joining the intramural team.


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Then how was he a slave? You cant make your snarky remarks both ways



he was allowed to play (without being compensated for his labor) because he did not know about the proposal to miss state i believe it was. his dad didn't get anything anyway.


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> Show me all of the kids who are being exploited.
> 
> It's a TWO-WAY street.  The kids are not FORCED into participating.
> 
> Let them gain admission to college, pay for it themselves; they can get their basketball or football or other sports "fix" by joining the intramural team.



here's a start

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/10/the-shame-of-college-sports/8643/


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> It's called being uneducated and feeling like no one can be smarter than you. It isn't them LOI that holds a student. It is the transfer rules that exist so players don't transfer to bigger schools their senior years...I agree with you Jason.



those transfer rules are specified in the loi


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> he was allowed to play (without being compensated for his labor) because he did not know about the proposal to miss state i believe it was. his dad didn't get anything anyway.



Ah, so u admit it had no water? What  was the point of bringing it up? Because in all honesty your argument makes no sense.


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Ah, so u admit it had no water? What  was the point of bringing it up? Because in all honesty your argument makes no sense.



check back and you'll see i didn't bring up cam newton


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> check back and you'll see i didn't bring up cam newton



No I did you commented that he was paid. Which would make him an expensive slave wouldn't it?... Once again, snarky comment with no substance.


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> *he was allowed to play (without being compensated for his labor) *because he did not know about the proposal to miss state i believe it was. his dad didn't get anything anyway.



Cam Newton wasn't on schoarship at Auburn???


----------



## JustAskin

dr. bucket said:


> those transfer rules are specified in the loi


I just re-read my son's LOI and you are penalized one year if you violate the LOI, meaning by their example if you change yor mind you cannot compete at another school for one year and that one year counts as a year of eligability. the only thing that has anything to do with 4 years is the statute of limitations, meaning if you sign and not go to school, you would have to stay out of school 4 years to avoid sitting out one year.


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> No I did you commented that he was paid. Which would make him an expensive slave wouldn't it?... Once again, snarky comment with no substance.



show me where i said he was paid


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> and his father wouldn't have been able to ask for $160,000



That's your exact quote bucket.


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> That's your exact quote bucket.



and where does it say cam was paid


----------



## dr. bucket

JustAskin said:


> I just re-read my son's LOI and you are penalized one year if you violate the LOI, meaning by their example if you change yor mind you cannot compete at another school for one year and that one year counts as a year of eligability. the only thing that has anything to do with 4 years is the statute of limitations, meaning if you sign and not go to school, you would have to stay out of school 4 years to avoid sitting out one year.



you need to read that letter because that is in no way what it says.

the year sitting out provided you have finished a year at the school you signed with does not count against eligibility. 

it does if you transfer after a less than full year. this is article 4:

4. Basic Penalty. I understand that if I do not attend the institution named within this document for one full academic year, and I enroll in another institution participating in the NLI program, I may not represent the latter institution in intercollegiate athletics competition until I have completed one full academic year in residence at the latter institution. Further, I understand I shall be charged with the loss of one season of intercollegiate athletics eligibility in all sports, except as otherwise provided in this NLI. This is in addition to any eligibility expended at any institution.

here's article 17 (and all those people who think the loi is for one year please take notice)

17. Statute of Limitations. This NLI is in full force and effect for a period of four (4) years, commencing with the date I sign this NLI.

Bingo. Bammo. Boffo. Four years!


----------



## JustAskin

dr. bucket said:


> you need to read that letter because that is in no way what it says.
> 
> the year sitting out does not count against eligibility.
> 
> here's article 17 (and all those people who think the loi is for one year please take notice)
> 
> 17. Statute of Limitations. This NLI is in full force and effect for a period of four (4) years, commencing with the date I sign this NLI.
> 
> Bingo. Bammo. Boffo.


I did read it and that  has been explained to us before as we go through compliance issues every year and I have two boys playing D1 football. You really don't know at all what you are yapping about.


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> here's a start
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/10/the-shame-of-college-sports/8643/



I read the entire article; I'm still waiting for YOU to...

Show me all of the kids who are being exploited.

It's a TWO-WAY street. The kids are not FORCED into participating in intercollegiate sports.

Let them gain admission to college, pay for it themselves; they can get their basketball or football or other sports "fix" by joining the intramural team.

They ARE compensated; their scholarship pays for tuition, room and board (and MANY are free to take that as CASH and live off-campus), books (many times sold back, without being used, much less taken out of the shrink-wrap), access to tutors, a training table, medical care, FREE athetic grear (shoes, t-shirts, shorts, windshirts, etc, etc)


----------



## dr. bucket

JustAskin said:


> I did read it and that  has been explained to us before as we go through compliance issues every year and I have two boys playing D1 football. You really don't know at all what you are yapping about.



you must be a poor listener and reader


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> I read the entire article; I'm still waiting for YOU to...
> 
> Show me all of the kids who are being exploited.
> 
> It's a TWO-WAY street. The kids are not FORCED into participating in intercollegiate sports.
> 
> Let them gain admission to college, pay for it themselves; they can get their basketball or football or other sports "fix" by joining the intramural team.
> 
> They ARE compensated; their scholarship pays for tuition, room and board (and MANY are free to take that as CASH and live off-campus), books (many times sold back, without being used, much less taken out of the shrink-wrap), access to tutors, a training table, medical care, FREE athetic grear (shoes, t-shirts, shorts, windshirts, etc, etc)



do they pay taxes on any of this?

what do you want photos of every bcs basketball and football player


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> do they pay taxes on any of this?



I've no idea if scholarship athletes pay taxes on the value of their scholarships; if they DO pay taxes; it's FUTHER PROOF that they ARE compensated.  Slaves aren't exactly known as the 'over-taxed' crowd.



dr. bucket said:


> what do you want photos of every bcs basketball and football player



No, just the ones are are FORCED into competition.  I want to see video proof of Greg Lansing KIDNAPPING Justin Gant and Jake Kitchell and Jake Odum and FORCING them to COMPETE for State without ANY COMPENSATON.


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> you must be a poor listener and reader



Ok: I am a former student athlete, well versed in NCAA rules and what not. I am happy to but in and say you are wrong dr. Bucket. That's alls


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> I've no idea if scholarship athletes pay taxes on the value of their scholarships; if they DO pay taxes; it's FUTHER PROOF that they ARE compensated.  Slaves aren't exactly known as the 'over-taxed' crowd.
> 
> 
> 
> No, just the ones are are FORCED into competition.  I want to see video proof of Greg Lansing KIDNAPPING Justin Gant and Jake Kitchell and Jake Odum and FORCING them to COMPETE for State without ANY COMPENSATON.


 
in another sense slaves certainly are the overtaxed crowd. 

while i won't be able to show proof of kidnapping, once the season starts i will be able to show you plenty of tape of them working without compensation. in fact it will be all over local sports shows


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Ok: I am a former student athlete, well versed in NCAA rules and what not. I am happy to but in and say you are wrong dr. Bucket. That's alls



where


----------



## JustAskin

dr. bucket said:


> do they pay taxes on any of this?
> 
> what do you want photos of every bcs basketball and football player


The only part of their scholarship that is tax free is tuition , they receive  a 1099 from the school every year.  Also they do not get unlimited books and books have to be turned in at end of semister inorder to get credit toward next semister. I normallypay about $300-400 extra per semister


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> in another sense slaves certainly are the overtaxed crowd.



And what sense is that?? 



dr. bucket said:


> while i won't be able to show proof of kidnapping, once the season starts i will be able to show you plenty of tape of them working without compensation. in fact it will be all over local sports shows



Wow -- I didn't realize that the 2011-2012 MBB will be comprised SOLELY of walk-ons!


----------



## 4Q_iu

JustAskin said:


> The only part of their scholarship that is tax free is tuition , they receive  a 1099 from the school every year.  Also they do not get unlimited books and books have to be turned in at end of semister inorder to get credit toward next semister. I normallypay about $300-400 extra per semister



Thanks for the clarity on scholies.

Is the books issue a NCAA or ISU thing?

Granted my experience is from the early-mid 1980s.

NCAA is always tweaking the rule book; what with the Rev. Newton's, UMiami football, UK MBB boosters, Reggie Bush, Pete Carroll, John Caliparis...


----------



## dr. bucket

JustAskin said:


> The only part of their scholarship that is tax free is tuition , they receive  a 1099 from the school every year.  Also they do not get unlimited books and books have to be turned in at end of semister inorder to get credit toward next semister. I normallypay about $300-400 extra per semister



what kind of 1099


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> where



I played here for Trent miles in 2008? What do you want? Photographic proof?


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> Rev. Newton's, UMiami football, UK MBB boosters, Reggie Bush, Pete Carroll, John Caliparis...



honest people trying to show the hypocrisy of the ncaa; i salute them all


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> honest people trying to show the hypocrisy of the ncaa



OMG!  Thank goodness I wasn't standing!!!   ROTFLMAO!!!!


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> honest people trying to show the hypocrisy of the ncaa; i salute them all



Wow. I take back what I stated earlier. This is the craziest thing I have ever heard.


----------



## JustAskin

actually it is a 1098 -T


----------



## 4Q_iu

JustAskin said:


> actually it is a 1098 -T




Like this?

www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1098t.pdf


----------



## 4Q_iu

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Wow. I take back what I stated earlier. This is the craziest thing I have ever heard.



Crazy? or delusional?  Uninformed??  Whack-a**???


----------



## JustAskin

4Q_iu said:


> Like this?
> 
> www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1098t.pdf


yes, photo perfect.


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> And what sense is that??
> 
> 
> 
> Wow -- I didn't realize that the 2011-2012 MBB will be comprised SOLELY of walk-ons!



o·ver·tax
   
1. to tax  too heavily.
2. to make too great demands on.


----------



## Callmedoc

4Q_iu said:


> Crazy? or delusional?  Uninformed??  Whack-a**???



You know I usually try to avoid labels like that because obviously everyone has different circumstances that lead to their opinions. But hey if the shoe  fits.


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> You know I usually try to avoid labels like that because obviously everyone has different circumstances that lead to their opinions. But hey if the shoe  fits.



are we opening things up for ad hominem attacks? i hope not


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> are we opening things up for ad hominem attacks? i hope not


You have been there before yourself if I remember correctly...I didn't call you anything other than calling your comment crazy.


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> o·ver·tax
> 
> 1. to tax  too heavily.
> 2. to make too great demands on.



So, exactly HOW are these "slaves" overtaxed?


----------



## 4Q_iu

Dgreenwell3 said:


> You know I usually try to avoid labels like that because obviously everyone has different circumstances that lead to their opinions. But hey if the shoe  fits.



Shoes implies laces.

Personally, I think the standard footwear for that person are some nice comfy slip-ons...


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> You have been there before yourself if I remember correctly...I didn't call you anything other than calling your comment crazy.



you recall wrong


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> Shoes implies laces.
> 
> Personally, I think the standard footwear for that person are some nice comfy slip-ons...



the voice of experience


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> So, exactly HOW are these "slaves" overtaxed?



a minimum of 20 hours a week work without pay


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> you recall wrong


Yeah I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one. Not everyone can get along I suppose


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> the voice of experience



Nope -- Sporting my Allen Edmonds as I type


----------



## 4Q_iu

*You're confused...*



dr. bucket said:


> a minimum of 20 hours a week work without pay



And for the scholarship players?


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> And for the scholarship players?



that is the scholarship players, the non scholarship ones can get jobs during the season.


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Yeah I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one. Not everyone can get along I suppose



no really you accused me and i would like to see the evidence upon which the accusation that i make ad hominem attacks is based. so start combing through the archives. i am certain you will find nothing.


time to man up and show me. 


AD hominem definition:
An argument based on the failings of an adversary rather than on the merits of the case; a logical fallacy that involves a personal attack.


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> no really you accused me and i would like to see the evidence upon which the accusation that i make ad hominem attacks is based. so start combing through the archives. i am certain you will find nothing.
> 
> 
> time to man up and show me.
> 
> 
> AD hominem definition:
> An argument based on the failings of an adversary rather than on the merits of the case; a logical fallacy that involves a personal attack.



My point isn't that that your "insults" are ad hominem but that you have done that yourself...


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> My point isn't that that your "insults" are ad hominem but that you have done that yourself...



done what? examples and evidence please. either that or drop the charges,

having a different opinion is now an insult? i thought this was america. it must be the united empire of political correctness now.

remember the constitution gives me the right to a speedy trial.


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> done what? examples and evidence please. either that or drop the charges,
> 
> having a different opinion is now an insult? i thought this was america. it must be the united empire of political correctness now.
> 
> remember the constitution gives me the right to a speedy trial.



Trial? Check your pms. I was talking about the time you insulted my intelligence on this board...I really don't feel like fighting over this because it's obvious.


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## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> that is the scholarship players, the non scholarship ones can get jobs during the season.



You still haven't explained how a full, athletic scholarship isn't just compensation?

For the 2011-2012 school year; attendance at State is ~$25,000 for in Indiana-resident; taking 12-18 hours with the most basic of room and board plans (Sycamore Towers and the base meal plan.)  Incidentals and books are not included in that price.

So, as Dr Bradley has stated; ALL ISU Athletic scholarships will be FULLY FUNDED.

Please explaine how a full, athletic scholarship isn't just compensation?


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> done what? examples and evidence please. either that or drop the charges,
> 
> having a different opinion is now an insult? i thought this was america. it must be the united empire of political correctness now.
> 
> remember the constitution gives me the right to a speedy trial.



Also, seriously you need to take a chill pill. This isn't a court of law or anything other than a message board. You are the one who turned this into a serious subject, no one else really gave a crap. It's an internet message board for a team you clearly arent a fan of...


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Also, seriously you need to take a chill pill. This isn't a court of law or anything other than a message board. You are the one who turned this into a serious subject, no one else really gave a crap. It's an internet message board for a team you clearly arent a fan of...




can't do it can you? you made the accusation not me and now you're trying to turn it on me. not having it. it's the oldest trick in the book.

i suggest you follow this advice: may the baby jesus shut your mouth and open your mind.

in other words have the evidence in hand before you accuse someone of something. that's the american way


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> can't do it can you? you made the accusation not me and now you're trying to turn it on me. not having it. it's the oldest trick in the book.
> 
> i suggest you follow this advice: may the baby jesus shut your mouth and open your mind.
> 
> in other words have the evidence in hand before you accuse someone of something. that's the american way



Page 10 in tapatalk of the fed strike down of planned parenthood thread. I didn't think it was worth delving deeper into but this baby Jesus comment ruffled my feathers.


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> You still haven't explained how a full, athletic scholarship isn't just compensation?
> 
> For the 2011-2012 school year; attendance at State is ~$25,000 for in Indiana-resident; taking 12-18 hours with the most basic of room and board plans (Sycamore Towers and the base meal plan.)  Incidentals and books are not included in that price.
> 
> So, as Dr Bradley has stated; ALL ISU Athletic scholarships will be FULLY FUNDED.
> 
> Please explaine how a full, athletic scholarship isn't just compensation?



sorry but if you don't understand you never will. i live in the real world and not in a bubble where big time bcs sports are viewed as amateurism.

can't give you anymore than that.

in closing i'll throw the question back at you: please explain how a scholarship is full and just compensation (and here we are talking revenue-producing sports)


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## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> sorry but if you don't understand you never will. i live in the real world and not in a bubble where big time bcs sports are viewed as amateurism.
> 
> can't give you anymore than that.
> 
> in closing i'll throw the question back at you: please explain how a scholarship is full and just compensation (and here we are talking revenue-producing sports)



I don't feel these kids are amateurs -- they ARE professional, their scholarship is their PAY.

You made the claim that these kids are slaves.  You have YET to prove it.

I've no idea where ANY of the 2011-12 MBB players live; regardless -- I'll use Carl Richard as the example.  Since Carl is from Chicago (and in Indiana for athletic/academic purposes, he's likely STILL considered an 'out-of-state' student.  If Carl has CHOSEN to live in Burford / Pickerl / Hines / Jones or Sandison Halls (the premium halls per ISU website) and he CHOOSES to have a single room AND the TOP (quantity) meal plan; his bill would be ~$41,000 for the year (excluding books, some lab fees, misc expenses.)  

His pay (scholarship) would be ~$41,000 for the academic year.

In return, Carl is expected to attend class, remain eligible, play hard, represent the ISU family in a positive manner.

Does Carl qualify for a federally-funded Pell Grant?  or Perkins Loan??  Have no idea, he may; IF he does, that is a maxium of $5,550 (Pell Grant) for the year.

Please explain your claim that these kids are slaves?  That the scholarship ISN'T fair/just compensation?

If you CANNOT -- Kindly retract that outrageous claim.


----------



## Callmedoc

4Q_iu said:


> I don't feel these kids are amateurs -- they ARE professional, their scholarship is there PAY.
> 
> You made the claim that these kids are slaves.  You have YET to prove it.
> 
> I've no idea where ANY of the 2011-12 MBB players live; regardless -- I'll use Carl Richard as the example.  Since Carl is from Chicago (and in Indiana for athletic/academic purposes, he's likely STILL considered an 'out-of-state' student.  If Carl has CHOSEN to live in Burford / Pickerl / Hines / Jones or Sandison Halls (the premium halls per ISU website) and he CHOOSES to have a single room AND the TOP (quantity) meal plan; his bill would be ~$41,000 for the year (excluding books, some lab fees, misc expenses.)
> 
> His pay (scholarship) would be ~$41,000 for the academic year.
> 
> In return, Carl is expected to attend class, remain eligible, play hard, represent the ISU family in a positive manner.
> 
> Does Carl qualify for a federally-funded Pell Grant?  or Perkins Loan??  Have no idea, he may; IF he does, that is a maxium of $5,550 (Pell Grant) for the year.
> 
> Please explain your claim that these kids are slaves?  That the scholarship ISN'T fair/just compensation?
> 
> If you CANNOT -- Kindly retract that outrageous claim.


Stand corrected edit


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## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> It's amazing...dr. Bucket is proven wrong and then just disappears



show me where i've been proven wrong.

it's america and you guys are free to be mistaken.

still waiting for that evidence


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## Callmedoc

I have already posted it here. If you can't read that's your problem.


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## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> I have already posted it here. If you can't read that's your problem.



invisible ink?


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## Callmedoc

Post 175 federal strike down of planned parenthood thread to be more precise...


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## Callmedoc

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Page 10 in tapatalk of the fed strike down of planned parenthood thread. I didn't think it was worth delving deeper into but this baby Jesus comment ruffled my feathers.



Is this invisible?


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## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Is this invisible?



can see that but it's your evidence of my ad hominem attacks on people here that isn't showing up


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> can see that but it's your evidence of my ad hominem attacks on people here that isn't showing up



I wasn't stating that your attacks were "ad hominem"...just that you had attacked people on this website before...


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## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> I wasn't stating that your attacks were "ad hominem"...just that you had attacked people on this website before...



show me


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> show me



Bucket. I just showed you... I am not putting you on trial here I am just stating the fact that you have insulted people on this website before. I showed you one. I am done on this subject because honestly you aren't worth my time.


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## Sackalot

i am still utterly perplexed how student athletes are slaves???  At worst they are indentured and that is most certainly a HUGE stretch.  Identify for me a student group that gets "paid" with scholarship, books, tutors, clothing, stipened or housing, food, travel and perks?  Please identify a group that gets all that on campus for me?  You can't do that because no other identifiable student group gets these things.  And because they are a part of structure that makes money they should automatically be paid even more?  I don't see it.  

By that rationale, you are suggesting that a highly intelligent biology major that is working as a research assistant should be paid royalties from the book that the tenured professor writes and becomes a best seller.  You are suggesting that the reserach assistant student should be paid a huge percentage of any revenue that is generated because they happened to help with research for a new strain of plant or something.  

Not the way it works...


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## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> Bucket. I just showed you... I am not putting you on trial here I am just stating the fact that you have insulted people on this website before. I showed you one. I am done on this subject because honestly you aren't worth my time.



was just answering your question.


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## dr. bucket

Please identify a group that gets all that on campus for me? You can't do that because no other identifiable student group gets these things.

president's scholars


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## dr. bucket

Sackalot said:


> i am still utterly perplexed how student athletes are slaves???  At worst they are indentured and that is most certainly a HUGE stretch.  Identify for me a student group that gets "paid" with scholarship, books, tutors, clothing, stipened or housing, food, travel and perks?  Please identify a group that gets all that on campus for me?  You can't do that because no other identifiable student group gets these things.  And because they are a part of structure that makes money they should automatically be paid even more?  I don't see it.
> 
> By that rationale, you are suggesting that a highly intelligent biology major that is working as a research assistant should be paid royalties from the book that the tenured professor writes and becomes a best seller.  You are suggesting that the reserach assistant student should be paid a huge percentage of any revenue that is generated because they happened to help with research for a new strain of plant or something.
> 
> Not the way it works...



chances are the research assistant did most of the work and should be compensated for that. an ethical professor would see to that


----------



## Sackalot

dr. bucket said:


> Please identify a group that gets all that on campus for me? You can't do that because no other identifiable student group gets these things.
> 
> president's scholars



Presidential Scholars do not get everything that the Athletes get.  They get free room and board only if they live on campus, they are not provided a stipend if they choose to live off.  Not all their books are paid for and though they most likely get a free laptop from the laptop program they are not given one because they are a presidential scholar.  They do not get free clothing, shoes, etc.  They do not get a great deal of what the athletes get...however, they do get a lot.  Are they slaves, what they do benefits the university substantially?


----------



## dr. bucket

Sackalot said:


> Presidential Scholars do not get everything that the Athletes get.  They get free room and board only if they live on campus, they are not provided a stipend if they choose to live off.  Not all their books are paid for and though they most likely get a free laptop from the laptop program they are not given one because they are a presidential scholar.  They do not get free clothing, shoes, etc.  They do not get a great deal of what the athletes get...however, they do get a lot.  Are they slaves, what they do benefits the university substantially?



are they making any cha ching for the u?


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> are they making any cha ching for the u?



Depends on the University / College

A federal law was passed YEARS ago that essentially allowed universities/colleges to keep the profits derived from products/services that were achieved via Federal Research monies.

Likely some universities hold these profits, some may allow the researchers.

Still waiting for your explanation of college athletes as slaves...


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> Depends on the University / College
> 
> A federal law was passed YEARS ago that essentially allowed universities/colleges to keep the profits derived from products/services that were achieved via Federal Research monies.
> 
> Likely some universities hold these profits, some may allow the researchers.
> 
> Still waiting for your explanation of college athletes as slaves...



that's the president's scholars; people here are so kneejerk

as i am waiting for your explanation of why they are not


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> that's the president's scholars; people here are so kneejerk
> 
> as i am waiting for your explanation of why they are not



It's on you to provide the burden of proof remember?


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## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> It's on you to provide the burden of proof remember?



he hasn't accused me of anything he's only made an rfi. if he were o accuse me, the burden would be on him. i have not accused him of anything either


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> he hasn't accused me of anything he's only made an rfi. if he were o accuse me, the burden would be on him. i have not accused him of anything either



No you claimed they were slaves. 4Q pointed out an obvious flaw in that line of thinking and you haven't provided any proof to the matter.


----------



## 4Q_iu

*I cited...*



dr. bucket said:


> as i am waiting for your explanation of why they are not



the 2011-2012 Indiana State cost; I used Carl Richard as an example.

Jake Odum's scholarship is worth approximately $24,000 + books.

Jake Odum is PAID $24,000+ in compensation.  In return, Jake is taking AT LEAST 12 credit hours of classes, practicing and staying eligible.

(And because Jake is from The Haute; it's pretty cheap to go home to the parents for a home cooked meal.)

Still think they're slaves?  *PROVE IT.*


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> No you claimed they were slaves. 4Q pointed out an obvious flaw in that line of thinking and you haven't provided any proof to the matter.



as i have to his


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## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> as i have to his



You have done nothing to that, you want to ask for proof while providing none.


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> the 2011-2012 Indiana State cost; I used Carl Richard as an example.
> 
> Jake Odum's scholarship is worth approximately $24,000 + books.
> 
> Jake Odum is PAID $24,000+ in compensation.  In return, Jake is taking AT LEAST 12 credit hours of classes, practicing and staying eligible.
> 
> (And because Jake is from The Haute; it's pretty cheap to go home to the parents for a home cooked meal.)
> 
> Still think they're slaves?  *PROVE IT.*



if his scholarship is worth that much it's a violation; it costs 14,596 (commute) 19,638 on campus per year. these figures each include about $2,200 in personal expenses and  travel costs which the scholarship can't cover. so subtract that amount from each. please notify the ncaa compliance officer  no wait if he's getting $6-7 K in cash each year then he's not a slave.

and it may be cheap for jake to eat at home but it's still an expense to someone.


----------



## dr. bucket

Dgreenwell3 said:


> You have done nothing to that, you want to ask for proof while providing none.



as does he

but yet i will try in vain one more time.

the scholarship merely accords him student status. he holds an at least 20 hour a week job for the university for which he receives no salary or wages though he is generating money for his employer. the scholarship has been donated so there is no cost to his employer

his scholarship is on a yearly basis while the letter of intent binds him for four unless he wants to be penalized.

his agreeing to the loi robs him of his right to due process and as we learned in the landmark dred scott case property, i.e. slaves, have no right to due process.


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> as does he



He provided proof...Also players get special meal plans and with the increase in tuition and premium housing, books and other expenses (fees and what not) 4qs. Number is just about right. I know, I was recently an athlete with a scholarship.


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> if his scholarship is worth that much it's a violation; it costs 14,596 (commute) 19,638 on campus per year. these figures each include about $2,200 in personal expenses and  travel costs which the scholarship can't cover. so subtract that amount from each. please notify the ncaa compliance officer  no wait if he's getting $6-7 K in cash each year then he's not a slave.
> 
> and it may be cheap for jake to eat at home but it's still an expense to someone.



ISU Tuition (cost is per SEMESTER)
Undergraduate Fees 
0.5 - 11.5 credits:  $282.00 (per credit hour) 
12-18 credits:  $3,891.00 (per semester) 
Above 18 credits:  $4,522.00 (per semester) 

http://www.indstate.edu/express/indiana11.htm

ISU Housing 2011-2012 (cost is per SEMESTER)

Hall/Accommodations Room & ISU Plan  
Standard Accommodations

Blumberg/Cromwell/Rhoads/Mills Halls
$7,990.00

Additional Single Room Rate 
$1,700.00

Enhanced Accommodations

Lincoln Quad
$8,500.00

Additional rate for "D" room as a single
$1,700.00

Premium Accommodations

Burford/Pickerl/Hines/Jones/Sandison Halls
$9,010.00

Additional Single Rate 
$2,550.00

Additional Meal Options

Blue Plan - #357.00

Sycamore Plan - $248.20

Statesman Plan - $183.60

http://www.indstate.edu/reslife/ResHalls/ResHalls Ratechart.htm

If you think the total is too high; it's my math; I doubled the cost, gave them a single room and bumped up their meal plan.

Regardless; for the last couple of years; in Indiana kid can count on paying between $20,000-$25,000 for ONE year of college.

Still waiting for your 'slavery' proof.'


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> if his scholarship is worth that much it's a violation; it costs 14,596 (commute) 19,638 on campus per year. these figures each include about $2,200 in personal expenses and  travel costs which the scholarship can't cover. so subtract that amount from each. please notify the ncaa compliance officer  no wait if he's getting $6-7 K in cash each year then he's not a slave.
> 
> and it may be cheap for jake to eat at home but it's still an expense to someone.



No one eats for free -- NO ONE.


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> No one eats for free -- NO ONE.



you dont have kids?


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> ISU Tuition (cost is per SEMESTER)
> Undergraduate Fees
> 0.5 - 11.5 credits:  $282.00 (per credit hour)
> 12-18 credits:  $3,891.00 (per semester)
> Above 18 credits:  $4,522.00 (per semester)
> 
> http://www.indstate.edu/express/indiana11.htm
> 
> ISU Housing 2011-2012 (cost is per SEMESTER)
> 
> Hall/Accommodations Room & ISU Plan
> Standard Accommodations
> 
> Blumberg/Cromwell/Rhoads/Mills Halls
> $7,990.00
> 
> Additional Single Room Rate
> $1,700.00
> 
> Enhanced Accommodations
> 
> Lincoln Quad
> $8,500.00
> 
> Additional rate for "D" room as a single
> $1,700.00
> 
> Premium Accommodations
> 
> Burford/Pickerl/Hines/Jones/Sandison Halls
> $9,010.00
> 
> Additional Single Rate
> $2,550.00
> 
> Additional Meal Options
> 
> Blue Plan - #357.00
> 
> Sycamore Plan - $248.20
> 
> Statesman Plan - $183.60
> 
> http://www.indstate.edu/reslife/ResHalls/ResHalls Ratechart.htm
> 
> If you think the total is too high; it's my math; I doubled the cost, gave them a single room and bumped up their meal plan.
> 
> Regardless; for the last couple of years; in Indiana kid can count on paying between $20,000-$25,000 for ONE year of college.
> 
> Still waiting for your 'slavery' proof.'



25k or so will get you a year at a decent private


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> 25k or so will get you a year at a *decent private*



Highly doubtful


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> 25k or so will get you a year at a decent private



That won't get you a semester at most private schools bucket...I am getting my graduate degree at a private school right now...


----------



## 4Q_iu

dr. bucket said:


> you dont have kids?



Not relevant --- to this conversation.

My last request for the day -- PROVE your claim of 'slavery' for scholarship athletes.


----------



## dr. bucket

4Q_iu said:


> Not relevant --- to this conversation.
> 
> My last request for the day -- PROVE your claim of 'slavery' for scholarship athletes.



sure it  is. kids eat for free even at some restaurants.

see post 150. like i said reactions here are so kneejerk people miss things


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> sure it  is. kids eat for free even at some restaurants.
> 
> see post 150. like i said reactions here are so kneejerk people miss things



Like your knee jerk reaction to not prove your claim?


----------



## Callmedoc

dr. bucket said:


> as does he
> 
> but yet i will try in vain one more time.
> 
> the scholarship merely accords him student status. he holds an at least 20 hour a week job for the university for which he receives no salary or wages though he is generating money for his employer. the scholarship has been donated so there is no cost to his employer
> 
> his scholarship is on a yearly basis while the letter of intent binds him for four unless he wants to be penalized.
> 
> his agreeing to the loi robs him of his right to due process and as we learned in the landmark dred scott case property, i.e. slaves, have no right to due process.


.   

Scholarships aren't donated, they are paid for. So that's something maybe you should brush up on.


----------

