# Why is our basketball recruiting struggling?



## BlueSycamore

We have plenty of 2014 spots available and zero commitments at this point...............what gives ?


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## Jason Svoboda

BlueSycamore said:


> We have plenty of 2014 spots available and zero commitments at this point...............what gives ?



That's a good question. As you said, we've got plenty of spots and will have a lot of PT available. We play in a very desirable conference that routinely sends teams deep into the NCAA tournament. We've got a good program with solid history and Indiana State is a good school.

What does that leave? Either kids aren't connecting with the coaching staff, they don't like Lansing's system or they feel they're bigger than Indiana State. The five kids that we've offered and have committed elsewhere committed to Northwestern, Butler, UMKC and two to Belmont.


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## BankShot

IMO, I don't think that we can "play the same game" as more prominent schools do in recruiting. For one thing, we've gotta be quiet about WHO we're recruiting. It's like fishing w/ STINK BAIT...once that one fish catches a whiff, they're all after it! I think we've gotta change strategy...become more like a "sniper" does on E-bay (which is what schools are doing to us NOW). Hard to explain, but I personally feel that recruiting has to be more "secretive" for ISU to be successful.

Finally, "playing style" must be CONTEMPORARY and attractive to today's HS kids, most who ENJOY putting shots in the air FULL COURT.


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## Jason Svoboda

BankShot said:


> IMO, I don't think that we can "play the same game" as more prominent schools do in recruiting. For one thing, we've gotta be quiet about WHO we're recruiting. It's like fishing w/ STINK BAIT...once that one fish catches a whiff, they're all after it! I think we've gotta change strategy...become more like a "sniper" does on E-bay (which is what schools are doing to us NOW). Hard to explain, but I personally feel that recruiting has to be more "secretive" for ISU to be successful.



Simply not possible anymore with hundreds of recruiting networks, sites, writers and bloggers as well as fan sites. If you're blaming your recruiting woes on not being able to sell, maybe you're in the wrong profession. ABC.


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## IndyTreeFan

I wonder how much the "knife" inserted by a certain someone and his "coaches" has hurt us in recruiting circles?  It couldn't have looked good that the certain someone ditched us for "greener pastures..."  :captainhook:


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## BankShot

Jason Svoboda said:


> If you're blaming your recruiting woes on not being able to sell, maybe you're in the wrong profession. ABC.



Money talks, bullshit walks...how's ISU $tack up now? Frequently, the kids WE recruit will not typically be among the "high flyers" of the perennial power registry, and many will have an "edge" about being IGNORED by the big schools, thus having that extra-incentive to out-perform, in a PERFECT ISU world.


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## blueblazer

BlueSycamore said:


> We have plenty of 2014 spots available and zero commitments at this point...............what gives ?



AAU coaches have as much if not more influence as other coaches. I believe style of play and support from locals have a lot to do with it. Most of the time when recruits visit Hulman Center the place is half empty and quiet. Not an exciting place. The coach has many obstacles to overcome and he is struggling to overcome these. Stan Evans, former assistant coach to Bob King who helped recruit #33 to state, once made a statement about problems in recruiting at State, and how difficult it was, basically he stated we the have to accept players on the edge with some problems if we want to compete at a high level. You might s not agree with him but he was a pro at recruiting and helped assemble State's 1979 team. Just some thoughts


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## Jason Svoboda

BankShot said:


> Money talks, bullshit walks...how's ISU $tack up now? Frequently, the kids WE recruit will not typically be among the "high flyers" of the perennial power registry, and many will have an "edge" about being IGNORED by the big schools, thus having that extra-incentive to out-perform, in a PERFECT ISU world.



Yet here we are.


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## Kneepad

We need better assistants.


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## BankShot

Ya, I plugged for a "big man" assistant coach that had a track record of collegiate success and was gunned down by the naysayers content w/ 6 PPG and 4 reb max production from All-State IN HS All-stars...and we wonder why recruits go elsewhere.


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## ISU_TREE_FAN

I agree with Bankshot that secrecy would be the best way but that is not possible in any shape or manner with Twitter, Facebook, and all the recruiting gurus either hyping them or the kids hyping themselves.   Kids WANT to see their name out there and WANT it known by the masses who has offered or even who has sent them a letter.  Its a "Heisman" type popularity contest going on 24/7.  It would seem that our Sycamore Staff is out there fishing but it is starting to be a concern that they have been unable to reel anyone in ?


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## Bluethunder

In all fairness they did reel one in, but then it didn't like the size of the boat, so it kicked the staff in the nuts and dove off the side hoping a big trawler like the SS Full O'Shit (registered out of Kentucky) and other bigger boats come along and throw out some chum.


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## BankShot

Nice "fish" story, BT...:laugh:

Wonder if SSOM has any to contribute?


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## bent20

How often do we have commits by this time of year? Gant was one of the few recent exceptions that I can remember. I know we're missing out on some guys, but that's hardly new. We haven't really done that much in recent years to expect better results.


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## Gotta Hav

Jason Svoboda said:


> Yet here we are.



 Yet here we are what?   blueblazer and bluestreak...you gave this comment two thumbs up....for what?   

I don't get it.  Do you mean three 18-15 seasons in a row, and no 2014 recruits to show for it?


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## sycamorebacker

bent20 said:


> How often do we have commits by this time of year? Gant was one of the few recent exceptions that I can remember. I know we're missing out on some guys, but that's hardly new. We haven't really done that much in recent years to expect better results.



We'll be ok.  IU was #1 last year and they have no commits.


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## Bluethunder

Agreed.  Talked about this earlier, but it is a domino effect.  Big schools fillup, recruits look at the next level, those school fill up, recruits look at the next level, those schools fill up, etc etc.  we are not atthe top of the food chain, so we just have to wait our turn at the buffet table.  Plenty of good kids out there, just have to be patient.  

Now if we dont have any recruits verballed/signed by November, then be afraid!


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## Jason Svoboda

Gotta Hav said:


> Yet here we are what?   blueblazer and bluestreak...you gave this comment two thumbs up....for what?
> 
> I don't get it.  Do you mean three 18-15 seasons in a row, and no 2014 recruits to show for it?



Bank's comments were pretty clear. Not sure why you have a hard on every time I respond to Bank, but you need to get over it.


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## sycamorebacker

Bluethunder said:


> Agreed.  Talked about this earlier, but it is a domino effect.  Big schools fillup, recruits look at the next level, those school fill up, recruits look at the next level, those schools fill up, etc etc.  we are not atthe top of the food chain, so we just have to wait our turn at the buffet table.  Plenty of good kids out there, just have to be patient.
> 
> Now if we dont have any recruits verballed/signed by November, then be afraid!




I'm not sure it's good strategy, but sometimes it pays to have openings in April for transfers.  A lot of mid-majors have transfers on their roster.


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## Gotta Hav

BankShot said:


> Ya, I plugged for a "big man" assistant coach that had a track record of collegiate success and was gunned down by the naysayers content w/ 6 PPG and 4 reb max production from All-State IN HS All-stars...and we wonder why recruits go elsewhere.



We have three Indiana All Stars, and all three together avg 24.9 ppg total, or around 8 ppg each.

Not the kind of offensive stats that would attract high flying Indiana All Stars, or other All Star recruits from other states.


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## Bluethunder

sycamorebacker said:


> I'm not sure it's good strategy, but sometimes it pays to have openings in April for transfers.  A lot of mid-majors have transfers on their roster.



Dont mind having AN opening, just dont want three or four! :freaked:


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## Jason Svoboda

Bluethunder said:


> Agreed.  Talked about this earlier, but it is a domino effect.  Big schools fillup, recruits look at the next level, those school fill up, recruits look at the next level, those schools fill up, etc etc.  we are not atthe top of the food chain, so we just have to wait our turn at the buffet table.  Plenty of good kids out there, just have to be patient.
> 
> Now if we dont have any recruits verballed/signed by November, then be afraid!



I'd agree wholeheartedly if we didn't have four spots to fill. 

The problem I'm seeing is the other schools in the Valley and mid-majors are competing for a lot of the same guys and our name isn't even being mentioned by any of the offered recruits save for one or two. If we're holding off on offering kids waiting for the current lot of offered prospects, we're going to end up having no date to the dance. 

I mean, I guess it's theoretically possible that every single recruit is pining for ISU but just keeping it on the down low.


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## Gotta Hav

Jason Svoboda said:


> Bank's comments were pretty clear. Not sure why you have a hard on every time I respond to Bank, but you need to get over it.



LOL!  Talk about thin skin...sounds like you got a good boner going their yourself Jason.


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## Jason Svoboda

sycamorebacker said:


> We'll be ok.  IU was #1 last year and they have no commits.



Difference being they're in the Top 5 for like 20 prospects so they'll fill their two spots.

I do agree, we'll be ok. I'd like to be more than okay, though.


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## sycamorebacker

Gotta Hav said:


> We have three Indiana All Stars, and all three together avg 24.9 ppg total, or around 8 ppg each.
> 
> Not the kind of offensive stats that would attract high flying Indiana All Stars, or other All Star recruits from other states.



I don't see how that's relevant.  All of the kids want to be on the front page and on TV.  Most kids around here dream about playing in the Big 10.  We just have to wait for the dominoes to fall.  No different than it's ever been except we are better now and have more to offer.  There were many years in the past when we were coming off of 4-8 win seasons.


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## Bluethunder

Jason Svoboda said:


> I'd agree wholeheartedly if we didn't have four spots to fill.
> 
> The problem I'm seeing is the other schools in the Valley and mid-majors are competing for a lot of the same guys and our name isn't even being mentioned by any of the offered recruits save for one or two. If we're holding off on offering kids waiting for the current lot of offered prospects, we're going to end up having no date to the dance.
> 
> I mean, I guess it's theoretically possible that every single recruit is pining for ISU but just keeping it on the down low.



Agree, but remember we have been close on more than one so far.  I was just pointing out that now is not the time to panic, but if we are still in this situation come October/November, it will be a much better time to panic.

You know what they say, good things come to those who wait.


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## hans1950

I don't have any answers either but it seems that we are never going to get many guys to come to ISU that have any chance to play at a bigger program.Maybe we need to accept this and not waste a minute recriuting guys we realistically don't have a chance of getting.Even the next level of players who all think they can play at a bigger school are probably not coming either unless they have baggage of some sort.Those guys we can use but probably not too many problem guys at one time.The guys we get by accident like Jake Odum who probably would have had many offers had he grown sooner are just luck or local kids like Jake.I feel like more time should go to recruiting the tweeners who can blossom and try to fill specific needs with JC guys.It's always going to be hard for us with the number of schools we are in direct competition with being so close.Guys with potential may be our best bet.For some reason,good players who would be starters for us want to sit the bench at a bigger school hoping for a year or two of playing time.


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## SycamoreinTexas

There's a reason Greg Lansing was an assistant coach! Has no business running a D1 basketball program!


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## Southgrad07

You'd think we had 5 consecutive 20 loss seasons reading this. I'm very concerned about being able to fill ALL 3 of our open spots for next year with quality guys but idk why people think there is something wrong with our recruiting approach or talent base. We have recruited well since Lansing has got here. 

I'd argue that his downfall in 14 'was he went too hard after kids who were just too good and blew up. Not his fault because he did not know what would go on but he identified them early. Unfortunately kids aren't too loyal to the guy who spots them first. If you want to bitch about Lansing you need to start somewhere else other than recruiting. That is his strong suit if you ask me.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Yeah you guys are doing a great job, I've got nothing to add. In fact, I think we've covered just about everything in just under 2 pages, well done gang! 

Greg Lansing sucks
Our Assistants suck
Our Approach sucks 
IU Hasn't Signed Anyone 
The World is Round or is it Flat? Still not sure.
Oh and We just suck 

Yeah... Nothing more to add here!


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## sycamorebacker

SycamoreinTexas said:


> There's a reason Greg Lansing was an assistant coach! Has no business running a D1 basketball program!



You're entitled to your opinion no matter how wrong it is.  Any opinion that ignores the facts is worthless.

Lansing has proven himself and I hope we have him for a long time.


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## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreinTexas said:


> There's a reason Greg Lansing was an assistant coach! Has no business running a D1 basketball program!


Technically all head coaches were assistants prior to getting the head job.


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## Chief_Quabachi

Recruiting is the life blood of a consistently winning program which requires salesmanship. At one of my salesmanship seminars many years ago the following statement was made;Good salesmen sell the SIZZLE, not the steak.


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## TreeTop

sycamorebacker said:


> Lansing has proven himself and I hope we have him for a long time.



Yes.


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## Daveinth

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Yeah you guys are doing a great job, I've got nothing to add. In fact, I think we've covered just about everything in just under 2 pages, well done gang!
> 
> Greg Lansing sucks
> Our Assistants suck
> Our Approach sucks
> IU Hasn't Signed Anyone
> The World is Round or is it Flat? Still not sure.
> Oh and We just suck
> 
> Yeah... Nothing more to add here!



You forgot to mention that Coors Light is the greatest beer known to man


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## SycamoreStateofMind

And the fact remains if he's not able to fill those slots with quality players he will determine his own future as a D1 HC, no? 

I'm having trouble understanding - other than losing BMac, what he has done to lose confidence in people so quickly? 

He got a kid to come over from Gonzaga that was on the freakin Canadian National team. He got another JC/tranafer kid this year. Was Myles Walker not his JC grab?

I mean don't get me wrong, we've one some freaking basketball games the last 3 years but we are from world beaters. Let's not act like a bunch of Cubs fans in here and pretend that everything is ok as long as your above .500 that aint the freaking Precedent that you wanna set.


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## ISU_TREE_FAN

Where are we headed ?  2010/11     20-14  (Had 5 game losing streak late in conference season but caught "lightning in a bottle" @MVC Tourney).
2011/12    19-15   (Lost 6 of 7 middle of conference season).  
2012/13    18-15   (Lost last 5 conf. regular season games).    
I fail to see an upward trend here ?


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## Bluethunder

ISU_TREE_FAN said:


> Where are we headed ?  2010/11     20-14  (Had 5 game losing streak late in conference season but caught "lightning in a bottle" @MVC Tourney).
> 2011/12    19-15   (Lost 6 of 7 middle of conference season).
> 2012/13    18-15   (Lost last 5 conf. regular season games).
> I fail to see an upward trend here ?



Got to go back further than the previous three years.  Waltman had some good years but couldn't maintain it, before him, nobody could get us over .500 since the start of the Reagan administration.   Lansing has not had a losing season yet.  Sure we would all like to win more, but put everything into the proper context.  Our school was consistently picked (and finished) toward the bottom of the league before.  We were a perennial Thursday night team.  Now we are picked to finish second in the league and people are talking basketball before football season. 

Also, why do people throw out the 2011 MVC tournament as "we just got hot at the right time" as if it was a fluke?  We finished third in the league that year at 12-6, not like we played our way out if Thursday night or something.  Plus, when people look at our hot finish in 2011 they want it to be an aberration, but the poor finishes in 2012 and 2013 were the coaches fault.  If it was poor coaching (in your opinion) that caused us to slide the last two years, then you have to say it was strong coaching in 2011 that got us a MVC championship.  Cant have it both ways.


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## BankShot

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Yeah you guys are doing a great job, I've got nothing to add. In fact, I think we've covered just about everything in just under 2 pages, well done gang!
> 
> Greg Lansing sucks
> Our Assistants suck
> Our Approach sucks
> IU Hasn't Signed Anyone
> The World is Round or is it Flat? Still not sure.
> Oh and We just suck
> 
> Yeah... Nothing more to add here!



Thanks for the cumulative summary, which doesn't add any added substance to the discussion.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

BankShot said:


> Thanks for the cumulative summary, which doesn't add any added substance to the discussion.



Which assumes that any of the other posts prior to mine added any cumulative substance...


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## BankShot

It's all in the eyes of the beholder...which is why Syc Pride exists. Gotta admit though, it's nice to have a "divine force" sweep down and sanctify our thoughts periodically.


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## bent20

I have to ask again, do we normally have commits by this time of year? A few years ago when we had multiple slots open, did we? Doesn't seem like we did, but maybe my memory is bad. We got some early commits from local guys, but not all of them. I know it's ideal to land guys now because then you're getting the guys you want most, but I just don't see where we've improved enough to have that much "sizzle" to sell.

This is a big year for us! Creighton is gone, we have an experienced team returning. Even though we finished last season poorly, we have every reason to expect improvement this season. If we can live up to expectations and maybe make another tourney run, I would have to think that will bold well for recruiting. We'll have plenty of openings in the near term to attract guys, especially those who to play early.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

I will be honest other than our inability year after year to recruit/stock-pile big men I am not really worried. We are what we are, we seem to have no trouble getting skilled 6'4 to 6'8 guys that can produce at this level - we haven't had a lot of game changers, but I have no doubts we can get someone to fill any void that might exsist after graduation.


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## Bally #50

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> I will be honest other than our inability year after year to recruit/stock-pile big men I am not really worried. We are what we are, we seem to have no trouble getting skilled 6'4 to 6'8 guys that can produce at this level - we haven't had a lot of game changers, but I have no doubts we can get someone to fill any void that might exsist after graduation.


Let's be honest here. If Bryant McIntosh had come here and brought his friend to the Sycamores, 95% of this forum would be tickled pink about Coach Lansing's recruiting. It is obvious that he has an eye for talent and Bryant told the world that it was his relationship that got him to sign with ISU in the first place. 

I stated back when he committed that I was afraid that McIntosh he would be tough to keep. So bottom line, I am bothered by the laundry list of Greg's "faults" because in one corner, some of you say that guy is can't recruit while many of you say it is a strength. I am worried about the Class of 2014 as it looks empty right now. I'll take the high road and say that coach still is not done (obviously) so at least this jury is still "out" on this subject. 

I do totally agree with SSOM, that we have always missed the boat on big men, but that is generally true of ALL mid-majors.


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## sycamorebacker

Daveinth said:


> You forgot to mention that Coors Light is the greatest beer known to man



I hate light beer.


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## sycamorebacker

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Which assumes that any of the other posts prior to mine added any cumulative substance...



Go ahead SSOM.  It's ok to call him a jerk.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time.


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## sycamorebacker

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> I will be honest other than our inability year after year to recruit/stock-pile big men I am not really worried. We are what we are, we seem to have no trouble getting skilled 6'4 to 6'8 guys that can produce at this level - we haven't had a lot of game changers, but I have no doubts we can get someone to fill any void that might exsist after graduation.



Totally agree.  And as far as stockpiling bigs, I would have to check schools like PU and IU, but I don't think we are the only one with that problem.


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## Jason Svoboda

bent20 said:


> I have to ask again, do we normally have commits by this time of year? A few years ago when we had multiple slots open, did we? Doesn't seem like we did, but maybe my memory is bad. We got some early commits from local guys, but not all of them. I know it's ideal to land guys now because then you're getting the guys you want most, but I just don't see where we've improved enough to have that much "sizzle" to sell.
> 
> This is a big year for us! Creighton is gone, we have an experienced team returning. Even though we finished last season poorly, we have every reason to expect improvement this season. If we can live up to expectations and maybe make another tourney run, I would have to think that will bold well for recruiting. We'll have plenty of openings in the near term to attract guys, especially those who to play early.



Commit dates on players from the last four recruiting classes:

09/23/2009 - Jake Kitchell (2010)
07/16/2010 - Justin Gant (2011)
08/29/2010 - Devonte Brown (2011)
11/27/2010 - Khristian Smith (2011)
01/17/2011 - Rhett Smith (2012)
04/22/2011 - Brandon Burnett (2011)
08/16/2011 - TJ Bell (2012)
01/18/2012 - Mike Samuels (2012)
03/13/2012 - Brenton Scott (2013)
04/23/2012 - Dawon Cummings (2012)
04/17/2013 - Alex Etherington (2013)
05/02/2013 - Demetrius Moore (2013)

I think the above shows that it is common for us to have a commit or two by this point, especially when you have multiple scholarships like we have (4 open) in this cycle. Would you say we have more sizzle than a school like Drake? They've already secured 5 commitments for their class including two three-star kids, both of which I think is going to be great in the Valley.


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## BankShot

sycamorebacker said:


> Go ahead SSOM.  It's ok to call him a jerk.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time.



Glad you had your shovel nearby, 'Backer...you get plenty of practice.

http://wilderhome.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/img_9258.jpg

Be sure to wash your hands before dinner.:cheeky:


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## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> And the fact remains if he's not able to fill those slots with quality players he will determine his own future as a D1 HC, no?
> 
> I'm having trouble understanding - other than losing BMac, what he has done to lose confidence in people so quickly?
> 
> He got a kid to come over from Gonzaga that was on the freakin Canadian National team. He got another JC/tranafer kid this year. Was Myles Walker not his JC grab?
> 
> I mean don't get me wrong, we've one some freaking basketball games the last 3 years but we are from world beaters. Let's not act like a bunch of Cubs fans in here and pretend that everything is ok as long as your above .500 that aint the freaking Precedent that you wanna set.



Did you just contradict yourself? :hypnotized:


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## Eleven

Jason Svoboda said:


> Did you just contradict yourself? :hypnotized:



I had the same thought... read it twice just to be sure... C'mon Man! ;-)


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## BankShot

Morgan's just trying to turn up the heat...ruffle the Syc Pride feathers in anticipation for ISU/IU next Thursday night!:wacko:

He's an "instigator"...:razz:

Myself? I'm more than satisfied with finishing *18-15* last season, especially after consuming those *three (3)* early cupcakes against Winthrop, Truman St. and High Point...that sugar can really contribute to long-term health problems. My only concern is w/ the "playing style" responsible for producing the following '12-13 NATIONAL season-ending #'s:

PPG - 215th - 65.8
RPG - 207th - 33.9
APG - 244th - 11.8
FG%- 189th -  43


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## Jason Svoboda

Will be interesting to see who they visit first when September 9th rolls around. That is when coaches can get back out on the road.


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