# [December 21, 2016] Indiana State (5-6) vs Eastern Illinois (7-4)



## Jason Svoboda

vs. 






*Indiana State Sycamores (5-6) vs. Eastern Illinois Panthers (7-4)
*​*
Hulman Center - Terre Haute, IN
Wednesday, December 21, 2016
​5:30 PM EST Tip​*


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## TreeTop

Let's right this ship.


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## niklz62

I was going to come to this game but it is at 430CST and I cant make it.


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## TreeTop

Wow.  With that start time and winter break in effect, it will be the least attended home game all season for sure.  Worse than our DII game.


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## Jason Svoboda

TreeTop said:


> Wow.  With that start time and winter break in effect, it will be the least attended home game all season for sure.  Worse than our DII game.


Without a doubt.


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## bluestreak

They beat Mizzou last night


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## Gotta Hav

bluestreak said:


> They beat Mizzou last night



And as if most people didn't know already....EIU beat Missouri, on-the-road at MISSOURI.   

Missouri doesn't have any signatures wins, however, it's a BIG deal for EIU because they beat a MAJOR Conference school...on-the-road.

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/142/missouri-tigers

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/team/schedule/_/id/142


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## ISUCC

bluestreak said:


> They beat Mizzou last night



and they have a 2 or 3 game win streak over us, never thought I'd have to write that out.


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## 4Q_iu

ISUCC said:


> and they have a 2 or 3 game win streak over us, never thought I'd have to write that out.



two games... we lost to them at Hulman in 2013-14 (56-60) and in 2014-15 @ eiu (62-68)...

prior to that, we'd won 10 of 11... 

1992-93 W 74-54 Terre Haute
1995-96 W 70-54 Terre Haute
1996-97 W 74-68 Charleston
1997-98 W 92-81 Terre Haute
2001-02 L  71-74 Charleston
2002-03 W 63-57 Terre Haute
2003-04 W 71-56 Charleston
2004-05 W 76-56 Terre Haute
2005-06 W 66-58 Charleston
2011-12 W 79-72 Terre Haute
2013-14 W 66-48 Charleston


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## Bluethunder

This is a much bigger game for us than I thought it would be a few months ago.

Win, and I feel a lot better moving into the conference season.

Lose (especially if we lose badly like the last two games) and the wheels will have officially come off and I don't know when our next win will come.


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## niklz62

if we lose, i have to hear it at work, the golf course, family gatherings and basically all over town until we play them in football next september.


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## BankShot

Gotta Hav said:


> And as if most people didn't know already....EIU beat Missouri, on-the-road at MISSOURI.
> 
> Missouri doesn't have any signatures wins, however, it's a BIG deal for EIU because they beat a MAJOR Conference school...on-the-road.
> 
> ...and we're still dealing w/ the diarrhea-like symptoms from last weekend's Valpo ass whooping.:bash:


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## Jason Svoboda

The positive here is their top 2 scorers are both guards so this is a game that depends heavily on EC and BS unless they assign one of them to Paige. With a max defensive effort by our guys, this should be a win.


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## BlueSycamore

Had this one penciled in a "W" before the season started .  HOWEVER recent Sycamore history shows that when we go through the what seems inevitable slump these last few seasons it lasts until we completely bottom out. Don't feel too optimistic that we have reached that depth yet? Wouldn't float any money to Vegas on this one - either way.


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## BankShot

Try top 3 scorers...that 5'7" 120 lber who has the ugliest shot in the World, Cornell Johnson, is #3 @ 11 PPG. He's been on BOTH the '14 & '15 squads that kicked our butts in Chuckstown & TH. :seestars:

Interesting how the 'Spoon Jr.'s top 6 scorers are ALSO aligned similarly in *minutes played*. They drop off considerably after #7, reflecting little depth.


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## meistro

Does anybody seriously know why this game is scheduled for 5:30. They've done this in the past and I just can't think of a good reason for it.


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## Jason Svoboda

meistro said:


> Does anybody seriously know why this game is scheduled for 5:30. They've done this in the past and I just can't think of a good reason for it.


To make sure EIU has no fans there? They're CST so most will still be at work so combine that in with students being on break and the early start time and it should be a morgue in there.


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## meistro

Jason Svoboda said:


> To make sure EIU has no fans there? They're CST so most will still be at work so combine that in with students being on break and the early start time and it should be a morgue in there.



Exactly, but somebody in the athletic dept. thought it was a good idea. Just baffles the mind. Maybe I could understand it if it was Friday because some people will have that day off but not tonight.


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## BrokerZ

Oh, what a difference a week and a half makes.  I had too penciled this one in as a win before the season started because, well, I don't think Eastern Illinois is very good.  Because, they're not.  What's changed is now we may be worse than I thought.  Worse than Eastern Illinois.  

If we lose this game we have some serious issues heading into conference play.  The slide will be three games with no light at the end of the tunnel.  I don't even care if we only lose by 1 point - I won't feel any differently.  If we are going to be remotely decent for the next two months, it starts tonight by taking care of business against what should be an inferior opponent.  The road only gets tougher from here...it's time to find out who we are.


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## meistro

Jason Svoboda said:


> To make sure EIU has no fans there? They're CST so most will still be at work so combine that in with students being on break and the early start time and it should be a morgue in there.



I thought maybe the women played after us but no, they played at noon today, lmao.


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## Jason Svoboda

meistro said:


> Exactly, but somebody in the athletic dept. thought it was a good idea. Just baffles the mind. Maybe I could understand it if it was Friday because some people will have that day off but not tonight.





meistro said:


> I thought maybe the women played after us but no, they played at noon today, lmao.


Would be interesting to see the rationale. Maybe they thought it didn't matter what time the game was played but I'd disagree. Whether it is our fans or EIU's fans, the school needs every single dollar that walks through that door.


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## niklz62

I'm in Charleston and I too wont be there so.....


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## ISUfan21

Will there even be over 2000 people at the game?

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## BankShot

Yes, if there's 1,998 more than Blueblazer & SSOM! Still trying to figure out WHY a squad would apply FC pressure...:blink:

Gee...Renn criticizing BK's "post play." Maybe he needs to work w/ him? BK has 2 min of PT w/ 3:55 left in 1st half (less than ANY other Sycamore).


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## ISUfan21

Hoping we can get something going here...

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## Bally #50

Home sick tonight but nice to have a "Fire Stick" that allows me to pick up You Tube, Netflix and ESPNGo. It works great and nice to hear my bud Rob Lafary on the mike calling the game. Hard to believe the Fire Stick is such an economical way to put our games on our big screens. Awesome. The game? Not so awesome.


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## BrokerZ

So this has sucked so far.  More of the same.  Just can't get over this hangover.


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## skdent1414

Page has been putrid for about 10 straight games now


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## ISUfan21

I wish lansing would tell them to drive the ball and quit settling for the 3

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## BankShot

Hey...we've got 9 pts. from our 2 sub "bigs" the 1st half (Murph & Dutchman)...that's more than the WHOLE game @ Valpo!:silenced:

BK even got 2 min of PT...then back to the "dog house."

How many teams come out of the locker room to start the 2nd half and experience a SHOT CLOCK VIOLATION? :sos:


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## BlueSycamore

How low can we go?  Lowly Bradley beat these guys in Charleston.


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## ISUfan21

What happened to this team. This isn't the same team that went to Florida 

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## BankShot

Scott is 3/15 FG...story of the game for ISU.

ISU 4/19 3's...:barf:


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## Southgrad07

Murphy has made the right play down low more times than not tonight..our guys have just clanked all of their 3pt  attempts out of it


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## BankShot

Dutchman has 13 pts on 5/7 FG...best game THIS season.

ISU getting the 6'6" Crossland to foul out has hurt EIU...


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## BankShot

EIU "tip" ties game @ 67 w/ 1 sec...:embarassed:
Renn talking about it NOT being "controlled"...lol - how many "tip ins" are controlled! The value of a "tip" is to keep the ball ALIVE which allows others to CRASH THE BOARD!

OT inevitable...


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## hans1950

Rickman  should have been on the low block instaed of MVS. What the hell?


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## ISUfan21

What's gonna happen this last min?

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## Jason Svoboda

How long are the coaches going to keep rewarding guys that won't rebound? Fed the fuck up with this bullshit.


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## BankShot

Well, we won...flush this down the toilet and tell the kids "Merry X-mas" and come back to school REFRESHED. We're playing "tight" right now...


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## niklz62

i knew they had it all along


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## BankShot

niklz62 said:


> i knew they had it all along



Ya, right...:whack:


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## Fife

It's a W but it feels like an L.


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## meistro

hans1950 said:


> Rickman  should have been on the low block instaed of MVS. What the hell?



This times 10


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## Jason Svoboda

hans1950 said:


> Rickman  should have been on the low block instaed of MVS. What the hell?


I'd rather see EC on the low block over MVS. I'm tired of hearing how great of a teammate and hard worker he is -- it's not translating to the floor. He is an undersized 4 because he doesn't have the apparently foot speed to play the 3. If he isn't on fire, his ass should be sitting on the bench, especially in situational roles like this. It isn't like he is a plus FT shooter, either.


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## BrokerZ

I had family-time obligations, so I turned the game off when we were up 4 with 19 seconds after Barnes' midrange jumper. I thought we had this one won. What the hell happened?

A win is a win, but this one still doesn't get me excited. We are a second half burst from Niels away from being on a 3 game losing streak. Pessimism is creeping in unfortunately...


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## meistro

Proud of the guys for fighting back in the second half. Murphy played with a chip on his shoulder and I like that. Niels was a big lift and BS kept shooting til he got hot.


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## meistro

That was my positive comments. That was one of the worst coaching performances I've seen recently and I'm quickly losing patience with Lansing. Why did we keep putting the ball in Clemons hands every possession down the stretch and expect him to do something in the last 8 seconds? Why was MVS in there to rebound? Why did it take an extra possession to realize we had a foul to give? Why did we keep calling time outs after a made shot to set up our defense? They had none and we helped them set up a play 2 or 3 times. Why is Q playing? Why is MVS on the floor if he can't make a shot? The list goes on and on.


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## Southgrad07

meistro said:


> That was my positive comments. That was one of the worst coaching performances I've seen recently and I'm quickly losing patience with Lansing. Why did we keep putting the ball in Clemons hands every possession down the stretch and expect him to do something in the last 8 seconds? Why was MVS in there to rebound? Why did it take an extra possession to realize we had a foul to give? Why did we keep calling time outs after a made shot to set up our defense? They had none and we helped them set up a play 2 or 3 times. Why is Q playing? Why is MVS on the floor if he can't make a shot? The list goes on and on.



Literally all of those thoughts went through my mind tonight..this stuff is not rocket science.


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## meistro

Southgrad07 said:


> Literally all of those thoughts went through my mind tonight..this stuff is not rocket science.



Glad it's not just me. I was about to come unglued tonight. And the other day backer said we just couldn't find players that want to come here. Apparently EIU can find some players that want to go to freaking Charleston IL WTF


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## meistro

And what's up with Franklin? Is he ever gonna learn that the key to getting more PT is not going one on one and jacking up a shot the second you get in the game. Lansing pulls Scott early in the second half for taking a quick shot. Insert Franklin, he immediately gets the ball goes one on one and misses. He promptly comes out of the game. Who was responsible for recruiting him. It took me 5 minutes to realize he was a selfish player with an attitude.


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## sycamorebacker

You guys are very tiring.  You don't want Franklin, Q, MVS, and several other players in the game.  Well WTF!  Somebody, the hell, has to play!


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## Sycamore Proud

meistro said:


> Does anybody seriously know why this game is scheduled for 5:30. They've done this in the past and I just can't think of a good reason for it.




Rumor that I heard from an EIU fan was the Panthers requested an early start to allow them to get home earlier for their kids to meet travel arrangements.  No, it didn't make sense to me either.


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## Chief_Quabachi

meistro said:


> That was my positive comments. That was one of the worst coaching performances I've seen recently and I'm quickly losing patience with Lansing. Why did we keep putting the ball in Clemons hands every possession down the stretch and expect him to do something in the last 8 seconds? Why was MVS in there to rebound? Why did it take an extra possession to realize we had a foul to give? Why did we keep calling time outs after a made shot to set up our defense? They had none and we helped them set up a play 2 or 3 times. Why is Q playing? Why is MVS on the floor if he can't make a shot? The list goes on and on.



I've been holding back being critical in an attempt to not appear a "Negative Nellie", but Lansing was flat-ass outcoached. Damn lucky to win this game sports fans!!


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## meistro

sycamorebacker said:


> You guys are very tiring.  You don't want Franklin, Q, MVS, and several other players in the game.  Well WTF!  Somebody, the hell, has to play!



What's tiring is sitting there watching Lansing ride certain players and then watch Q and MVS give us practically nothing and still on the court most of the time.


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## LoudNProud

meistro said:


> What's tiring is sitting there watching Lansing ride certain players and then watch Q and MVS give us practically nothing and still on the court most of the time.



MVS is frustratingly inconsistent. Dominant in the Butler game and then a ghost versus WKU. However, the guy has shown that he can be a go to shooter when times are tough.

Q is on the floor because he took the time to learn from Devonte Brown how to play defense. He gave us, on multiple occasions tonight, critical defensive stops. I don't understand where his scoring from Orlando went, but the guy can just plain play defense. 

Rickman needs more time on the court, Franklin needs to be given room to breathe, but both of those realities won't come quickly with TJ Bell stepping away. Unless the coaching staff knew way ahead of time (i.e. before the season began) then adjusting strategies, floor spacing, and rotations will take more than a couple of practices. We don't have time to go back to square one, but we're back there because one player decided to quit. 

Lansing riding Scott bothers me. Rickman having the world's shortest leash frustrates me. However, I am reserving judgment on Lansing until the last 1/3 of the season. If we once again completely meltdown the last 2 weeks of February and then get pounded at Arch Madness, I'll be showing Lansing what I learned last week in my crotch punching class.


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## meistro

LoudNProud said:


> MVS is frustratingly inconsistent. Dominant in the Butler game and then a ghost versus WKU. However, the guy has shown that he can be a go to shooter when times are tough.
> 
> Q is on the floor because he took the time to learn from Devonte Brown how to play defense. He gave us, on multiple occasions tonight, critical defensive stops. I don't understand where his scoring from Orlando went, but the guy can just plain play defense.
> 
> Rickman needs more time on the court, Franklin needs to be given room to breathe, but both of those realities won't come quickly with TJ Bell stepping away. Unless the coaching staff knew way ahead of time (i.e. before the season began) then adjusting strategies, floor spacing, and rotations will take more than a couple of practices. We don't have time to go back to square one, but we're back there because one player decided to quit.
> 
> Lansing riding Scott bothers me. Rickman having the world's shortest leash frustrates me. However, I am reserving judgment on Lansing until the last 1/3 of the season. If we once again completely meltdown the last 2 weeks of February and then get pounded at Arch Madness, I'll be showing Lansing what I learned last week in my crotch punching class.


I don't think Q's defense is as good as some think. It was his man that went right around him toward the end of regulation for a layup. The Orlando game appears to be his career game. He can't shoot and isn't a great ball handler. He's a role player playing starter minutes.


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## BallyPie

Just wondering why MVS was in on that Free Throw tip in play........why??......we should've taken our 5 tallest players and put them in the game....get a rebound and the game is over.....nobody needs to dribble the ball at the point.......Rickman should've been on the block opposite Murphy.....they overpowered MVS and got the tip in.........horrible coaching on our part........    We're lucky we won......


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Did we lose last night?! Man reading the comments it sure feels like we did... Not that my post is going to ring of jingling positivity! 

Few things quickly. We can talk about guys who should and shouldn't be on the floor all day but at the end of the day his bench isn't really that long. It's like you all are hoping and praying that he waves some Harry Potter magic dust on MVS and suddenly makes him really quick on D or off the bounce. Harry Potters Paige and makes him not turn the ball over or not lose his man with 7 seconds left and allow a layup on an inbounds play no less. Like these are Lansings guys and he's either going to win with him or he's going to lose with them. But no magic dust coming anytime soon. 

Three issues last night.

1. 15ish seconds left in regulation Scott hits one of two at the line we go up 4. Lansing signals TO we come out of the TO and allow a straight line layup. 

Situational awareness - as a fan you look at the monitor and see oh we've got 5 fouls we have a foul to give. Our players had no intent to foul in that situation. I'm convinced it wasn't mentioned in the huddle - that can't happen you have to force EIU to play that pos. into being the last of the game. You have a head coach and 3 very experienced assistant coaches surely one of you saw that and mentioned it.

2. The next pos. we make 1 of 2 at the line again and EIU has the ball. This time we decide to tell our kids we have a foul to give - we use it. Then we decide to foul again and put them on the line - gotta make one and miss the second. I don't mind the strategy until this happens and I watched with utter confusion.

Guidino puts Murphy in the game - okay he had 12 rbs in the game and is one of our 2 bigs on the bench makes sense. Then his next move he puts in Rickman!!! 

Nope... (shakes head) he puts in MVS. Why?! I'm screaming at you to put Rickman in the game. If he can't rebound in that situation what can he do. Lord. We know the result they get a tip in and OT. 

3. How is Trey Knight or one of those two walk-on's not better and more prepared to play than Paige?! Maybe I just don't know shit about basketball. Because if I do and if Knight does I'm watching every game since Iowa State and I'm thinking I can't play ahead of that guy then I aint ever going to play. Nope son - your right about that. 

Glad to survive that game. Let's see if our guys can get any confidence back - we have some guys that are in need of some swagger.


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## meistro

Ssom looks like we were watching the same game. I am glad we won and proud of the second half effort. Lansing doesn't need fairy dust he needs to open his damn eyes.


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## TreeTop

I'll take the win.

Non-Con over, bring on the second season.


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## bluebill

Specifically watched for rebounding in over time....Guess what,.I counted 4 total in 10 min's....1 .. yes one!!  in the first 5 min's .... and 3 or maybe 4 in the second.   Pore rebounding caused both, overtimes and about caused a loss.  We direly need to learn how to rebound and shoot free shots. :angry:


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## meistro

I said before that with the non conference schedule we had that I'd be happy with 6-6 and I am. I just thought we'd get better as the season went on and that's not the case. Regardless of how we got here, we're still in a position to have a good season if we can correct some of our nagging problems.


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## sycamorebacker

We can get better.  We have additional guys doing some things better.  *But we need to shoot better and make FT's.  *
Coaching is fine, Q is fine, etc.  I HATE Monday morning quarterbacking.  

Has anyone noticed that BS's passing has improved.  He is now making some daring passes to open guys.  Murphy is a pretty good passer for a center, also.  I think this is generally a good passing team, which is one of our strengths. * But we must shoot better and make FT's. *

Regarding Q -- he can shoot some and pass, and he is our best (undersized) defender at the small forward.  Actually, I consider him our only SF.  He really is a guard, and will be a mainstay at guard/SF for us the next two years.  We all know our forwards are the missing link on this team.  We just have to work with what we have and bring in more players.

Like I've said before, we are two deep.  If NB and Murphy and Barnes and Q can keep improving, I'll go to 3.


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## BankShot

Today's Golden write up mentions the Dutchman's ability to put the ball on the floor when being overplayed on the perimeter. This isn't anything new...I saw it last year, along w/ his ability to dish to an open man on the drive. Why he's NOT been encouraged to use this skill is your guess as good as any. It sure makes the "D" play more honest, thus freeing up offensive lanes of opportunity.

Any ideas why BK only played 2 minutes last night? Frankly, his "development" is going backward, not a good sign for "happiness & stability" under Lansing @ ISU. If things don't change, I don't see him "wasting" a career in TH. He had other good others, WKU & UE among them.


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## sycamorebacker

BankShot said:


> Today's Golden write up mentions the Dutchman's ability to put the ball on the floor when being overplayed on the perimeter. This isn't anything new...I saw it last year, along w/ his ability to dish to an open man on the drive. Why he's NOT been encouraged to use this skill is your guess as good as any. It sure makes the "D" play more honest, thus freeing up offensive lanes of opportunity.



I agree, although he has to be very careful.  Especially against the better teams.  A pull-up J would be nice, but I don't think he has a jumper.  He could do the pass off the jump-shot like Bird used to do; but that might be a stretch.  Like you said, It does seem like he sees the floor pretty well.


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## sycamorebacker

BankShot said:


> Any ideas why BK only played 2 minutes last night?



I can't figure him.  It looks like the plan this year is to play him at center, since NB and MVS are senior forwards that can score some and are too slow for the SF spot.  He seems a little tentative or shaky to me.  And he is competing with the two older big guys for PT.
I think he will develop well for us the next 3 years.  There's certainly no reason to assume that a freshman is ready, unless you are UK or Duke, etc.


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## krwilson2

sycamorebacker said:


> I can't figure him.  It looks like the plan this year is to play him at center, since NB and MVS are senior forwards that can score some and are too slow for the SF spot.  He seems a little tentative or shaky to me.  And he is competing with the two older big guys for PT.
> I think he will develop well for us the next 3 years.  There's certainly no reason to assume that a freshman is ready, unless you are UK or Duke, etc.



Might still be early in the recovery process to trot him out there for 15 minutes per game.  The injury might have been 24 months ago, but I wonder what the recovery time is to be back with 100% lift and strength?


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## Jason Svoboda

Reported attendance was 3315. How close was that to being accurate?


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## blueblazer

Jason Svoboda said:


> Reported attendance was 3315. How close was that to being accurate?


Close, maybe a little less


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## BankShot

krwilson2 said:


> Might still be early in the recovery process to trot him out there for 15 minutes per game.  The injury might have been 24 months ago, but I wonder what the recovery time is to be back with 100% lift and strength?



He was getting MORE minutes earlier this season. The 1st sign I saw re: stamina/conditioning was the game @ Utah State in 5,000' altitude (foothills of Rockies), where he was look'n like "Puff the Magic Dragon" after only 2 min of PT. He just doesn't seem comfortable on the court...not playing "loose" and "natural" and losing court awareness perception skills. I'm sure the "mixed" PF-C role hasn't helped any with this, given Bell's departure.


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## Jason Svoboda

blueblazer said:


> Close, maybe a little less


That's actually really encouraging all things considered.


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## Jason Svoboda

BankShot said:


> He was getting MORE minutes earlier this season. The 1st sign I saw re: stamina/conditioning was the game @ Utah State in 5,000' altitude (foothills of Rockies), where he was look'n like "Puff the Magic Dragon" after only 2 min of PT. He just doesn't seem comfortable on the court...not playing "loose" and "natural" and losing court awareness perception skills. I'm sure the "mixed" PF-C role hasn't helped any with this, given Bell's departure.


Prior to the Utah State game, he was showing flashes. Since that game, he's been deep sixed. My bottom line is I trust Rickman or Kessinger to get a rebound more than I do MVS or Niels because both have shown in their little sample size that they're willing to defend the rim and rebound with effort. Sure, they may get beat but they at least look like they're efforting out there. I can't say the same about the other two dudes that love sitting 22 ft from the rim 90% of the time.


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## meistro

Jason Svoboda said:


> Reported attendance was 3315. How close was that to being accurate?



It was definitely better than I thought we'd have and that figure is pretty close.


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## meistro

BankShot said:


> Today's Golden write up mentions the Dutchman's ability to put the ball on the floor when being overplayed on the perimeter. This isn't anything new...I saw it last year, along w/ his ability to dish to an open man on the drive. Why he's NOT been encouraged to use this skill is your guess as good as any. It sure makes the "D" play more honest, thus freeing up offensive lanes of opportunity.
> 
> Any ideas why BK only played 2 minutes last night? Frankly, his "development" is going backward, not a good sign for "happiness & stability" under Lansing @ ISU. If things don't change, I don't see him "wasting" a career in TH. He had other good others, WKU & UE among them.



BK overplayed his man and tried to deny the entry pass and the guy got an easy layup. His man had a wing span close to 7' and would have scored over him anyway. Lansing was either mad his man had too deep of position or that he overplayed and got an easy basket. I'm ok with taking him out and telling him what he did wrong but put him back in and see if he corrects the problem. I like BK because he has a big strong frame and has good post skills, he just needs more of a chance. Lansing is in his head and he's afraid to make a play now, imo.


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## BankShot

Jason Svoboda said:


> Prior to the Utah State game, he was showing flashes. Since that game, he's been deep sixed. My bottom line is I trust Rickman or Kessinger to get a rebound more than I do MVS or Niels because both have shown in their little sample size that they're willing to defend the rim and rebound with effort. Sure, they may get beat but they at least look like they're efforting out there. I can't say the same about the other two dudes that love sitting 22 ft from the rim 90% of the time.



Hans pointed out that last night on the *game-tying tip-in *by EIU, we had MVS in the INSIDE SLOT on the FT line where the basket occurred. Ya, Renn & Fritzy cried "over the back," but had BK or Rickman been there, the game would've ended. Can't blame this on Gudino, since GL took over the "rotation" system.

I agree 100% re: MVS & Dutchman's lack of rebounding skills on offense or defense.


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## meistro

sycamorebacker said:


> We can get better.  We have additional guys doing some things better.  *But we need to shoot better and make FT's.  *
> Coaching is fine, Q is fine, etc.  I HATE Monday morning quarterbacking.
> 
> Has anyone noticed that BS's passing has improved.  He is now making some daring passes to open guys.  Murphy is a pretty good passer for a center, also.  I think this is generally a good passing team, which is one of our strengths. * But we must shoot better and make FT's. *
> 
> Regarding Q -- he can shoot some and pass, and he is our best (undersized) defender at the small forward.  Actually, I consider him our only SF.  He really is a guard, and will be a mainstay at guard/SF for us the next two years.  We all know our forwards are the missing link on this team.  We just have to work with what we have and bring in more players.
> 
> Like I've said before, we are two deep.  If NB and Murphy and Barnes and Q can keep improving, I'll go to 3.



I like your optimism but not sure what game you were watching last night. Our coaching was not fine and Q is not fine, he is a role player and needs to be played as such. I'm sorry you hate Monday morning quarterbacking but that's part of what this forum is about, imo. Scott's passing has gotten better along with his ballhandling. If Murphy shows the same desire and toughness the rest of the season like he did last night we'll be a much better team.


----------



## meistro

BankShot said:


> Hans pointed out that last night on the game-tying tip-in by EIU, we had MVS in the INSIDE SLOT on the FT line where the basket occurred. Ya, Renn & Fritzy cried "over the back," but had BK or Rickman been there, the game would've ended. WTF?
> 
> I agree 100% re: MVS & Dutchman's lack of rebounding skills on offense or defense.



I originally thought it was over the back but looking at the replay MVS was basically flat footed. Rickman or BK or hell Clemons would have been better down there than MVS.


----------



## BlueSycamore

meistro said:


> I originally thought it was over the back but looking at the replay MVS was basically flat footed. Rickman or BK or hell Clemons would have been better down there than MVS.



You may have hit on something MEISTRO.  Maybe we need to put Clemons down low when opposing free throws are being shot?  Chances are he will get the ball or will get  an over the back call as he is relentless.


----------



## Southgrad07

Regarding Q he is shooting 28 % from deep and 62% from the line.. more turnovers than ast. per  game. He does play good defense for the most part, but that alone should  not warrant the leash he has gotten from Lansing. He's better than a yr  ago...I'll at least give him that.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

BankShot said:


> Hans pointed out that last night on the *game-tying tip-in *by EIU, we had MVS in the INSIDE SLOT on the FT line where the basket occurred. Ya, Renn & Fritzy cried "over the back," but had BK or Rickman been there, the game would've ended. *Can't blame this on Gudino, since GL took over the "rotation" system*.
> I agree 100% re: MVS & Dutchman's lack of rebounding skills on offense or defense.



Has this actually happened?  I can't see what is going on at the bench to tell.


----------



## sycamorebacker

meistro said:


> I like your optimism but not sure what game you were watching last night. Our coaching was not fine and Q is not fine, he is a role player and needs to be played as such. I'm sorry you hate Monday morning quarterbacking but that's part of what this forum is about, imo. Scott's passing has gotten better along with his ballhandling. If Murphy shows the same desire and toughness the rest of the season like he did last night we'll be a much better team.



What's _your _lineup without Q?  I thought he was a role player, basically, at this point.  Q is fine given his talent, experience.  He will give us two good years.


----------



## sycamorebacker

meistro said:


> I originally thought it was over the back but looking at the replay MVS was basically flat footed. Rickman or BK or hell Clemons would have been better down there than MVS.



If I was coaching, I think I might have had Clemons and Scott in there to block out and/or go for the ball.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Southgrad07 said:


> Regarding Q he is shooting 28 % from deep and 62% from the line.. more turnovers than ast. per  game. He does play good defense for the most part, but that alone should  not warrant the leash he has gotten from Lansing. He's better than a yr  ago...I'll at least give him that.



And the 2nd highest FG% of all the starters and 2nd on the team in blocks and 3rd in steals.   Don't just cherry-pick stats to prove a point.


----------



## Southgrad07

sycamorebacker said:


> And the 2nd highest FG% of all the starters and 2nd on the team in blocks and 3rd in steals.   Don't just cherry-pick stats to prove a point.



The overall  fg% is a legit positive...the other two... lol he isn't even averaging 1 of either a game! sorry, but I'm more concerned about  him being able to hang on to the ball and shoot it with any type of consistency  beyond 10 feet...You keep holding on to that shot he blocks every other game champ..


----------



## krwilson2

BankShot said:


> He was getting MORE minutes earlier this season. The 1st sign I saw re: stamina/conditioning was the game @ Utah State in 5,000' altitude (foothills of Rockies), where he was look'n like "Puff the Magic Dragon" after only 2 min of PT. He just doesn't seem comfortable on the court...not playing "loose" and "natural" and losing court awareness perception skills. I'm sure the "mixed" PF-C role hasn't helped any with this, given Bell's departure.



He's getting a shade under 10 min / game and has only gone over that a couple of times.  I agree that the vaccuum of whatever position he's being slotted for right now is likely confusing - at least it is to me.  Gant disappeared at the end of his career there, as well.  BK seems to have a decent post game...maybe just a couple of sets for him per half might build some confidence?


----------



## sycamorebacker

Southgrad07 said:


> The overall  fg% is a legit positive...the other two... lol he isn't even averaging 1 of either a game! sorry, but I'm more concerned about  him being able to hang on to the ball and shoot it with any type of consistency  beyond 10 feet...You keep holding on to that shot he blocks every other game champ..



All that is true.  He is doing better than most of us expected, especially in shooting, but he is not all conference.  Not sure what your point is.  He is what he is.  I certainly would NOT criticize him for his effort.  If you are saying he is playing too much, then what small forward should be out there?  If you are just stating facts, then, well, thank you.  I guess you are right; we don't need blocks and steals.  

I hope he gets good experience for next year.  I guess I'm weird -- I think it's a good thing when I see players get better. I look at years and careers rather than yesterday's game.


----------



## ISUfan21

sycamorebacker said:


> All that is true.  He is doing better than most of us expected, especially in shooting, but he is not all conference.  Not sure what your point is.  He is what he is.  I certainly would NOT criticize him for his effort.  If you are saying he is playing too much, then what small forward should be out there?  If you are just stating facts, then, well, thank you.  I guess you are right; we don't need blocks and steals.
> 
> I hope he gets good experience for next year.


But he is a guard. That's what he played last year 

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## sycamorebacker

ISUfan21 said:


> But he is a guard. That's what he played last year
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk



That's a matter of definition.  He's either playing the 3rd guard or the small forward.  Your point is?


----------



## ISUfan21

I'm not saying anything bad about Q. I don't like how we are giving up size on the court. In my opinion.  Van scyoc should be a 3 and Q can sub in for him when he needs a break. Van Scyoc isn't a 4. I think the 4 should either be BK or NB.  And Rickman and Murphy rotating the 5. We get our rebounded really bad. Especially on offensive rebounds. 

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----------



## sycamorebacker

ISUfan21 said:


> I'm not saying anything bad about Q. I don't like how we are giving up size on the court. In my opinion.  Van scyoc should be a 3 and Q can sub in for him when he needs a break. Van Scyoc isn't a 4. I think the 4 should either be BK or NB.  And Rickman and Murphy rotating the 5. We get our rebounded really bad. Especially on offensive rebounds.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk



Yes, that's all true.  The problem is our overall talent level at the forward positions.  Right now, given defense and the ability to contribute in other ways and the ability to drive, I'm thinking Q needs to be out there.  MVS is a contributor, basically, if he is hitting shots.  Neither MVS or NB get many rebounds.  MVS can not defend a quick 3.  And BK doesn't look that comfortable to me.  And overall size is a problem on our team.  And Coach did say earlier that Q was one of our best passers and one of our leading scorers in practice.  That means NB and MVS may not be getting it done in practice either.    

Q is shooting 49%, 2.4 reb and some blocks and steals.
MVS is shooting 43%, 2.8 reb.
NB is shooting 33%, 1.5 reb.


----------



## ISUfan21

sycamorebacker said:


> Yes, that's all true.  The problem is our overall talent level at the forward positions.  Right now, given defense and the ability to contribute in other ways and the ability to drive, I'm thinking Q needs to be out there.  MVS is a contributor, basically, if he is hitting shots.  Neither MVS or NB get many rebounds.  MVS can not defend a quick 3.  And BK doesn't look that comfortable to me.  And overall size is a problem on our team.
> 
> Q is shooting 49%, 2.4 reb and some blocks and steals.
> MVS is shooting 43%, 2.8 reb.
> NB is shooting 33%, 1.5 reb.


Well could he be uncomfortable not playing the right position? He seems to be a 4 not a 5. Just a question

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## sycamorebacker

ISUfan21 said:


> Well could he be uncomfortable not playing the right position? He seems to be a 4 not a 5. Just a question
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk



If you didn't see it, there are various opinions and ideas on BK and some on our forwards and Q earlier in this thread.  
My opinion is that BK will be a good PF for us and BM and ER will be good centers and they all need one more year.


----------



## meistro

sycamorebacker said:


> What's _your _lineup without Q?  I thought he was a role player, basically, at this point.  Q is fine given his talent, experience.  He will give us two good years.


You're saying Q is fine given his talent. What I'm saying is he's not talented enough to play the minutes he's getting. He's never going to be consistent with his shot because it's not fundamentally sound and outright god awful looking. He can drive and play some defense. He should be playing 10/15 minutes a game. If I'm starting 3 guards I'm going with BS, Clemons and Barnes.


----------



## sycamorebacker

meistro said:


> You're saying Q is fine given his talent. What I'm saying is he's not talented enough to play the minutes he's getting. He's never going to be consistent with his shot because it's not fundamentally sound and outright god awful looking. He can drive and play some defense. He should be playing 10/15 minutes a game. If I'm starting 3 guards I'm going with BS, Clemons and Barnes.



So if you rest BS, EC and Barnes with Q, he'll play 25 minutes.  

I guess I haven't noticed any problems in his shot.

Some of you guys will be eating your words by the end of next year.  I've noticed a lot of posters on here cannot recognize talent.  
I was told Aaron Carter would never be a top 5 scorer for us when he was a SO.  

All you have to do is compare Scott and Clemons with what they were 1 or 2 years ago.


----------



## meistro

sycamorebacker said:


> So if you rest BS, EC and Barnes with Q, he'll play 25 minutes.
> 
> I guess I haven't noticed any problems in his shot.
> You
> Some of you guys will be eating your words by the end of next year.  I've noticed a lot of posters on here cannot recognize talent.
> I was told Aaron Carter would never be a top 5 scorer for us when he was a SO.
> 
> All you have to do is compare Scott and Clemons with what they were 1 or 2 years ago.



You haven't noticed his shot? Do you go to the games or watch on tv?


----------



## meistro

Look where he's at on the PER rating Jason just posted.


----------



## sycamorebacker

meistro said:


> You haven't noticed his shot? Do you go to the games or watch on tv?



Internet, but I saw him make 7 out of 9 3's at the open scrimmage warmup.  I guess I'm usually an optimist and I like to project players.  Brown improved much more than I expected, Gant less; so I am wrong a lot.  But in Q, I see a guy that has made some jump shots this year and we have guys that cannot do that.  He can be quick to the hoop, can block some shots, is athletic and can play some D and pass.  I'm glad we have him, so I'm not going to criticize him in his first year to start and contribute significantly.  Considering the level of player we recruit, you certainly don't want to give up on someone before their JR year.  *And I don't see anybody else that should be playing ahead of him*.

I find it interesting that you are saying a player is offensively inept that scored 20 pts against a ranked team and scored all over the floor.


----------



## sycamorebacker

meistro said:


> Look where he's at on the PER rating Jason just posted.



Yes, I saw that.  Some funny stuff in there.  I think they are just based on stats.


----------



## sycamorebacker

2FG%

BS  46%
EC  60
MVS  44
JB    47
Q    56
BM   46
FRANKLIN  41
NB   45 
ER  59


----------



## Jason Svoboda

sycamorebacker said:


> Yes, I saw that.  Some funny stuff in there.  I think they are just based on stats.


What's funny about it? It's an overall picture based on one's entire offensive and defensive game and efficiency with the minutes they're given.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

sycamorebacker said:


> 2FG%
> 
> BS  46%
> EC  60
> MVS  44
> JB    47
> Q    56
> BM   46
> FRANKLIN  41
> NB   45
> ER  59


That's his claim to fame? He averages 1.1 points per shot attempt which is only above Bronson on the team right now. For being Mr. Defense, he's got a whole 6 steals in 240 minutes of PT. He's also got the worst A/TO ratio of any of our guards on the team and his TO% is 30%, which is 10% higher than anyone on the team. Turnover percentage is the % of time a player will turn the ball over per 100 possessions. 

Bottom line is the kid just isn't a quality player right now on either end of the floor.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Jason Svoboda said:


> What's funny about it? It's an overall picture based on one's entire offensive and defensive game and efficiency with the minutes they're given.



How is the defense put in?


----------



## sycamorebacker

Jason Svoboda said:


> That's his claim to fame? He averages 1.1 points per shot attempt which is only above Bronson on the team right now. For being Mr. Defense, he's got a whole 6 steals in 240 minutes of PT. He's also got the worst A/TO ratio of any of our guards on the team and his TO% is 30%, which is 10% higher than anyone on the team. Turnover percentage is the % of time a player will turn the ball over per 100 possessions.
> 
> Bottom line is the kid just isn't a quality player right now on either end of the floor.



Ok.  Put him on the end of the bench and play Franklin, if that's what you guys want.  

Nice discussion. 
*I don't know what everybody's point is*, but I seldom criticize a player's overall game.   Especially sophomores.  I like to think that 8-9 players contribute to whatever the result is.  I guess that's just me.  I consider it a team.


----------



## ISUfan21

I just wish the coaching staff would do something. Like teach basketball. Run offensive and defensive plays. Unless a kid comes in doing well they don't improve. Look at Murphy he is a junior and still plays like he did his freshman year. It's not his fault. 

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## sycamorebacker

ISUfan21 said:


> I just wish the coaching staff would do something. Like teach basketball. Run offensive and defensive plays. Unless a kid comes in doing well they don't improve. Look at Murphy he is a junior and still plays like he did his freshman year. It's not his fault.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk



 You would have to be blind to say that NB, Murphy, Scott, EC, ER, Q have not improved every year.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

sycamorebacker said:


> Ok.  Put him on the end of the bench and play Franklin, if that's what you guys want.
> 
> Nice discussion.
> *I don't know what everybody's point is*, but I seldom criticize a player's overall game.   Especially sophomores.  I like to think that 8-9 players contribute to whatever the result is.  I guess that's just me.  I consider it a team.


Nobody is advocating for that. The simple fact of the matter is Q has the ball in his hands a lot and RIGHT NOW he isn't doing anything positive with it. You could live with his turnovers if he was scoring at a 12-14 point per game clip, giving you plus rebounds, assists or soemthing else measurable but not at 5.3ppg, 2.4rpg and 1.2apg he is giving you. 

I'm simply saying (and what I've seen others say as well) pull back the minutes a tad until he shows he places a premium on taking care of the ball. We went from having a 1.25 A/TO ratio as a team just 3 games ago to being damn near even heading into the Wichita State game. Q's had 9 TOs and 2 assists over those 3 games. 

Another thing folks don't understand is why Q gets free reign to be reckless but guys like Franklin, Kessinger and Rickman get yanked at the first mistake. That's all.


----------



## ISUfan21

EC and Scott are the only two player I know what I'm going to get from them every game. They are consistant. Everyone else not at all. Neils scored playing a position he is comfortable with at the 4 spot. Rickman came in good. He never get enough playing time to make an impact on the game. Someone needs to work with Murphy and he will improve. He still isn't dominate in the post like he was his freshman year. He has the size. Someone needs to help him learn some agility. Q has potential.  You seen what he did against Iowa state.  Someone needs to work with him on offense. And he can be a key player. It seems like he doesn't have confidence. Coaches can work him to build that up. This team has the potential to be one of the best teams ISU has put together.  But there is no leader. 

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## sycamorebacker

Jason Svoboda said:


> he's got a whole 6 steals in 240 minutes of PT. He's also got the worst A/TO ratio of any of our guards on the team and his TO% is 30%, which is 10% higher than anyone on the team. Turnover percentage is the % of time a player will turn the ball over per 100 possessions.
> 
> Bottom line is the kid just isn't a quality player right now on either end of the floor.



Well, I'll excuse him for being 3rd in the team in steals behind BS and EC and  having more TO's/minute, or whatever, than EC and BS since they are FAR AND AWAY THE BEST PLAYERS ON THE TEAM.  In fact, *they are our team*.  He's our 3rd best guard?  Call out the National Guard!  Lock him up!

Min/game
BS 32.7
MVS  24.6
EC  31.7
JB  20.2
Q  20

I don't see anything wrong with these minutes.


----------



## sycamorebacker

Jason Svoboda said:


> Nobody is advocating for that. The simple fact of the matter is Q has the ball in his hands a lot and RIGHT NOW he isn't doing anything positive with it. You could live with his turnovers if he was scoring at a 12-14 point per game clip, giving you plus rebounds, assists or soemthing else measurable but not at 5.3ppg, 2.4rpg and 1.2apg he is giving you.
> 
> I'm simply saying (and what I've seen others say as well) pull back the minutes a tad until he shows he places a premium on taking care of the ball. We went from having a 1.25 A/TO ratio as a team just 3 games ago to being damn near even heading into the Wichita State game. Q's had 9 TOs and 2 assists over those 3 games.
> 
> Another thing folks don't understand is why Q gets free reign to be reckless but guys like Franklin, Kessinger and Rickman get yanked at the first mistake. That's all.



That is all reasonable.  To me, the only problem I have is if you "yank" Q for a TO, who do you put in?  MVS could play a few more minutes.  NB could play more if he plays like he did the last game.  But neither of them crash the boards and might both be limited on who they can guard.  And Franklin is jacking up too many shots.  I think Barnes' minutes have gone up recently.  The problem with playing JB, EC and BS is  height.


----------



## sycamorebacker

ISUfan21 said:


> Look at Murphy he is a junior and still plays like he did his freshman year.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk



What did you say?  You mean when he averaged 1.0 pts and shot 21%?


----------



## sycamorebacker

ISUfan21 said:


> EC and Scott are the only two player I know what I'm going to get from them every game. They are consistant. Everyone else not at all. Neils scored playing a position he is comfortable with at the 4 spot. Rickman came in good. He never get enough playing time to make an impact on the game. Someone needs to work with Murphy and he will improve. He still isn't dominate in the post like he was his freshman year. He has the size. Someone needs to help him learn some agility. Q has potential.  You seen what he did against Iowa state.  Someone needs to work with him on offense. And he can be a key player. It seems like he doesn't have confidence. Coaches can work him to build that up. This team has the potential to be one of the best teams ISU has put together.  But there is no leader.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk



Yes.  We need to tell our coaches they should have practices and teach the boys how to play.


----------



## ISUfan21

Lol it's just my opinion.

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## sycamorebacker

ISUfan21 said:


> Lol it's just my opinion.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk



I guess I understand that you feel they are not getting better fast enough.  This is not our year, in my opinion.  We have several players that will be better next year and we could be bringing in 3 that can help right away.  Hopefully, we can improve the 3 spot and I think our 4 will definitely be significantly better.


----------



## meistro

sycamorebacker said:


> Internet, but I saw him make 7 out of 9 3's at the open scrimmage warmup.  I guess I'm usually an optimist and I like to project players.  Brown improved much more than I expected, Gant less; so I am wrong a lot.  But in Q, I see a guy that has made some jump shots this year and we have guys that cannot do that.  He can be quick to the hoop, can block some shots, is athletic and can play some D and pass.  I'm glad we have him, so I'm not going to criticize him in his first year to start and contribute significantly.  Considering the level of player we recruit, you certainly don't want to give up on someone before their JR year.  *And I don't see anybody else that should be playing ahead of him*.
> 
> I find it interesting that you are saying a player is offensively inept that scored 20 pts against a ranked team and scored all over the floor.



Listen, I like Q, he is a hard worker and a good teammate and can definitely help this team over the next 2 1/2 years. The fact is that he's 2 1/2  years into our program and he is what he is. He will get better but imo doesn't have the raw talent that a starting, MVC guard needs to have. Scott obviously has that and I think Barnes does too. That's why I advocate playing Barnes as much as possible because his upside/ceiling is much higher than Q. Barnes is our point guard of the future. Bring Q in to give those guys and MVS a breather and tell him his main job is to play defense like crazy and take care of the ball. This isn't a bash Q thing, it's just wanting to have the 5 best players on the floor the majority of the time and I don't feel like he is one of our 5 best players. I'm obviously not getting anywhere with this argument so I'll just stop. I like you and appreciate your opinions, I just don't agree with all of them.


----------



## meistro

sycamorebacker said:


> Ok.  Put him on the end of the bench and play Franklin, if that's what you guys want.
> 
> Nice discussion.
> *I don't know what everybody's point is*, but I seldom criticize a player's overall game.   Especially sophomores.  I like to think that 8-9 players contribute to whatever the result is.  I guess that's just me.  I consider it a team.



I'm in no way advocating for Franklin to get more time.


----------



## ISUfan21

I respect everyone's opinions. I have more of a problem with the coaching then the players. So many subs that no one is getting the time to gel. And then time management is turning into an issue. Like this game against EIU. We were holding the ball almost all of the shot clock with a 7 point lead with 2+ minutes to go. We need to keep attacking instead of holding back. A bad T.O. with 17 seconds left and not having the best rebounds on the post on the free throws. We also need to play more zone. Neils can strive in that. He doesn't have the ability to keep taking faster players 1 on 1 defensively. Also shot selection. When we miss 3+ consecutive 3's we need to change the offense to drive instead of settle. We get into predicaments where we need huge plays and it's simple thing to avoid those situations. 

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## sycamorebacker

ISUfan21 said:


> Like this game against EIU. We were holding the ball almost all of the shot clock with a 7 point lead with 2+ minutes to go. We need to keep attacking instead of holding back.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk



I think you would have to be stupid not to run the clock when ahead 7 with 2 to go.  The less shots your opponent gets, the less chance they have of out scoring you by 6.  That's just pure math and probabilities.


----------



## ISUfan21

But when you don't get a good shot or convert and they go down and keep making it. Makes a problem for yourself. 

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## sycamorebacker

ISUfan21 said:


> But when you don't get a good shot or convert and they go down and keep making it. Makes a problem for yourself.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk



Right.  And running the clock allows that to happen fewer times.


----------



## ISUfan21

That's true but we seen where it failed the other night in regulation

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## BankShot

sycamorebacker said:


> Right.  And running the clock allows that to happen fewer times.



Agree to a point, however we've also seen our fair share of games where we've attempted this "milking the clock" strategy and 1) it's destroyed our game flow/offensive rhythm and we end up taking a half-assed shot and 2) the opposing "D" has forced multiple crucial TO's. It's a double-edged sword that can come back to haunt a squad. With our poor FT % THIS season, the probability of success using this strategy is lowered considerably.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

sycamorebacker said:


> That is all reasonable.  To me, the only problem I have is if you "yank" Q for a TO, who do you put in?  MVS could play a few more minutes.  NB could play more if he plays like he did the last game.  But neither of them crash the boards and might both be limited on who they can guard.  And Franklin is jacking up too many shots.  I think Barnes' minutes have gone up recently.  The problem with playing JB, EC and BS is  height.


It doesn't have to be any particular person. In fact, with the youth and the fact they're all prone to mistakes, I'd love to see us go to more of a situational/match up playing time scheme. Playing a team with a traditional lineup and you can probably get away with MVS/Niels playing some 3 and having Murph and Rickman out there. Playing a smaller team like Drake, run 4 guards to space them out. This is where the staff should make their moolah.


----------



## ISUfan21

Jason Svoboda said:


> It doesn't have to be any particular person. In fact, with the youth and the fact they're all prone to mistakes, I'd love to see us go to more of a situational/match up playing time scheme. Playing a team with a traditional lineup and you can probably get away with MVS/Niels playing some 3 and having Murph and Rickman out there. Playing a smaller team like Drake, run 4 guards to space them out. This is where the staff should make their moolah.


That's a good point you have there Jason. We just have a one trick pony system though. Look at last for example. We did really well the first half of conference season. We didn't change anything up the second half and got burnt because of it. My family and I went to the Bradley game and Loyola game at there places. Tough ride home after those

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## sycamorebacker

ISUfan21 said:


> That's true but we seen where it failed the other night in regulation
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320AZ using Tapatalk



You can fail anything at the end of the game; but you ALWAYS want your opponent to have less possessions in the last 2 minutes if you have a 3 possession lead.


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## BankShot

sycamorebacker said:


> You can fail anything at the end of the game; but you ALWAYS want your opponent to have less possessions in the last 2 minutes if you have a 3 possession lead.



...but as I stated previously, there are consequences of a "wasted" possession late in the game. Examples are a bad shots, turnovers and missed FT's, all which are likely to surface within the time frame you mention. ISU has seen their fair share of these over the past 2 1/2 yrs.

In the EIU game, the FAILURE of our coaching staff to have proper placement of Sycamores in FT lane slots on a FT w/ 1 sec remaining almost cost us a ball game.


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## sycamorebacker

BankShot said:


> ...but as I stated previously, there are consequences of a "wasted" possession late in the game. Examples are a bad shots, turnovers and missed FT's, all which are likely to surface within the time frame you mention. ISU has seen their fair share of these over the past 2 1/2 yrs.
> 
> In the EIU game, the FAILURE of our coaching staff to have proper placement of Sycamores in FT lane slots on a FT w/ 1 sec remaining almost cost us a ball game.



So a wasted possession early in the game doesn't have consequences?  :shocked:


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## BankShot

sycamorebacker said:


> So a wasted possession early in the game doesn't have consequences?  :shocked:



The weight of "time" is of little to no consequence EARLY in the game, as there is plenty of opportunity (time remaining) for redemption. This is not the case in the final 2-3 minutes of the game, where the value of each possession is of far greater consequence.

If a squad clearly has experienced good ball movement and scoring while approaching the final 2-3 minutes, I'm not one to favor slamming on the brakes...all other factors being equal. That's also why I'm not a fan of "automatic substitutions," which often destroy team continuity. I don't know how often I've seen GL pull a "hot hand" who upon return, never reignites the burner.


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## sycamorebacker

BankShot said:


> The weight of "time" is of little to no consequence EARLY in the game, as there is plenty of opportunity (time remaining) for redemption. This is not the case in the final 2-3 minutes of the game, where the value of each possession is of far greater consequence.
> 
> If a squad clearly has experienced good ball movement and scoring while approaching the final 2-3 minutes, I'm not one to favor slamming on the brakes...all other factors being equal. That's also why I'm not a fan of "automatic substitutions," which often destroy team continuity. I don't know how often I've seen GL pull a "hot hand" who upon return, never reignites the burner.



You MUST adjust your playing speed at 2-3 minutes, depending on the score.  You would be fired on the spot if your team got the ball with a 7 pt lead with 2 minutes remaining, continued to run your offense at full speed, and lost.  That is a totally stupid thing to do.


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## Coach

sycamorebacker said:


> You MUST adjust your playing speed at 2-3 minutes, depending on the score.  You would be fired on the spot if your team got the ball with a 7 pt lead with 2 minutes remaining, continued to run your offense at full speed, and lost.  That is a totally stupid thing to do.



not totally stupid Bucko.....how many times do you see teams running the clock fiddling & diddling and taking a really bad shot or not get a shot at all or go to the free throw game & brick the free throws time after time. Just another way to let the bad guys catch up and beat you.

Sometimes it is best to dance with the one who brung you.


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## BankShot

Teams get into the "mode" of playing NOT TO LOSE (ultra-conservative) versus playing to WIN (continuing a mode of opportunism)...the style becomes obvious, when a squad milks the clock for 25 sec., passing up "reasonable" scoring options, then concludes their possession with a poor shot or TO. 

The playing NOT TO LOSE style almost always is sensed by an opposing "D", who then overplays and gambles on attempted steals, knowing that the consequence of their action are minimal, given that a squad is clearly more concerned about the CLOCK than anything else.


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## bluebill

We have watched either types both work and fail..  The most important thing in my mind is absolute confidence that any shot taken will GO IN. 
Confidence wins both shooting or defending.


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## sycamorebacker

If you look confident while running your offense, you probably are. In the end, the results ALWAYS rest on MAKING THE SHOT.


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## BankShot

...and taking THAT shot when an opening occurs, regardless of the clock. What value is a few extra seconds if the conditions surrounding the "shot" are NOT optimum? Might as well call a time out, call your bookie, and secure the ODDS of making that 29.9 sec shot. Then at least we can say that it was based on MATHMATICAL probability, rather than REASON.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

The whole idea of "playing not to lose" or whatever you want to call it is fan speak... 

Even teams playing in this mode will attack the basket given a fast-break or something like that. But if they are coached well they are not going to try and force a pass or make a play with a lot of time left on the clock given a big enough lead. 

I'd say the majority of mid major teams start milking the clock with anything under 4 minutes to play. They are most definitely balking at the situation and just trying to survive and yes sometimes it hurts them. I think most of the time it makes sense. That said, you can turn the ball over when doing it and you still have to attack the rim. If you can avoid settling for jumpers and if you can work the clock and get to the line at the end of it - you will win the game more times than not.


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## krwilson2

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> The whole idea of "playing not to lose" or whatever you want to call it is fan speak...
> 
> Even teams playing in this mode will attack the basket given a fast-break or something like that. But if they are coached well they are not going to try and force a pass or make a play with a lot of time left on the clock given a big enough lead.
> 
> I'd say the majority of mid major teams start milking the clock with anything under 4 minutes to play. They are most definitely balking at the situation and just trying to survive and yes sometimes it hurts them. I think most of the time it makes sense. That said, you can turn the ball over when doing it and you still have to attack the rim. If you can avoid settling for jumpers and if you can work the clock and get to the line at the end of it - you will win the game more times than not.



It could also be suggested that in many cases, the milking of the clock begins at 9:20ish to get to the under 8 TO (or insert any second half mandatory stoppage) - especially when a lead is either dwindling or stagnant.


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## sycamorebacker

BankShot said:


> ...and taking THAT shot when an opening occurs, regardless of the clock. What value is a few extra seconds if the conditions surrounding the "shot" are NOT optimum? Might as well call a time out, call your bookie, and secure the ODDS of making that 29.9 sec shot. Then at least we can say that it was based on MATHMATICAL probability, rather than REASON.



I don't know if you are trying to downplay "odds," but don't do it.  All things being equal, if you have a lead, you ALWAYS increase your chance of winning if your opponent shoots LESS shots.


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## BankShot

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> The whole idea of "playing not to lose" or whatever you want to call it is fan speak...



LOL - you don't think that "coaches" are "fans?"


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## BankShot

sycamorebacker said:


> I don't know if you are trying to downplay "odds," but don't do it.  All things being equal, if you have a lead, you ALWAYS increase your chance of winning if your opponent shoots LESS shots.



Only in a PERFECT WORLD...and we both know that the game is far from this. Generally speaking, the length of possession last year (see KenPom.com) was 18.4 sec. Every second beyond this "norm" creates added pressure & discomfort within the offense. In essence, the odds of making a basket late in the shot clock and beyond the "norm" of possession are proportionately lowered.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

BankShot said:


> LOL - you don't think that "coaches" are "fans?"



Is that the best you got? Really?


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## BankShot

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Is that the best you got? Really?



I rest my case...gotta rehab my Arthroscopy from last Friday in your backyard and get ready for mini-marathon next week in FL!
Gonna have to change my screen name to "The Flash," resurrecting thoughts of '73 Spring @ ISU during the weekend of the NCAA hoop Regional.:viking:


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## SycamoreStateofMind

BankShot said:


> I rest my case...gotta rehab my Arthroscopy from last Friday in your backyard and get ready for mini-marathon next week in FL!
> Gonna have to change my screen name to "The Flash," resurrecting thoughts of '73 Spring @ ISU during the weekend of the NCAA hoop Regional.:viking:



Hope the surgery went well for you! Good luck with the rehab.


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