# Casino Coming to Terredice



## SycamoreStateofMind

https://www.tribstar.com/news/updat...cle_9a260be2-f3f0-11e8-a548-931ae9b09d02.html

Gibson going to make it happen - guy is single handily trying to make Terre Haute relevant again. People in TH need to stop with the hate and petty in-fighting and get behind what he’s trying to do. 

We have nothing and I mean nothing to lose. You can sit back and just hope things get better meanwhile median household income level stays near the lowest in the state - jobs keep leaving. You’ve got to do something to try and pump some life in the local economy. 

I don’t gamble - not my thing. But I think this will be a nice addition to Terre Haute. Am more interested to see where they plan on putting it?? East side? Likely. River front?! Would be nice and still possible but they’re looking to make these casino 100% land based.


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## IndyTreeFan

There’s no apparent conflict of interest with this one, so I hope they get it done!  I also hope that local “leaders” understand that this isn’t an economic development plan. It’s a PART of an economic development plan. Could be a nice addition to the “things to do in Terre Haute” section...

Now I hope they have live roulette!  Might have to show up there a couple of times a year...


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## SycamoreStateofMind

IndyTreeFan said:


> There’s no apparent conflict of interest with this one, so I hope they get it done!  I also hope that local “leaders” understand that this isn’t an economic development plan. It’s a PART of an economic development plan. Could be a nice addition to the “things to do in Terre Haute” section...
> 
> Now I hope they have live roulette!  Might have to show up there a couple of times a year...



ITF - to be clear my commentary about people was general in nature just so you aware. That said, now that you’ve posted I really am surprised that your still worried about his potential conflict of interest. He’s removed himself as a board member of the CIB. What more do you want him to do?? 

Is he doing this for his own benefit? Sure as shit he is - who wouldn’t. Let me tell you - he’s one of the few people that’s really trying to help move Terre Haute forward. I’m shocked that a “conflict of interest” would draw so much attention...


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## meistro

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> ITF - to be clear my commentary about people was general in nature just so you aware. That said, now that you’ve posted I really am surprised that your still worried about his potential conflict of interest. He’s removed himself as a board member of the CIB. What more do you want him to do??
> 
> Is he doing this for his own benefit? Sure as shit he is - who wouldn’t. Let me tell you - he’s one of the few people that’s really trying to help move Terre Haute forward. I’m shocked that a “conflict of interest” would draw so much attention...



I'm not saying ITF is, but a lot of people are just jealous and don't want to see the rich get richer. Newsflash, money makes things happen. We're lucky to have somebody with that kind of money willing to make things happen in TH.


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## meistro

Lot of empty space at the mall. Could combine shopping with gambling. My guess is that it would go out east though, since GG owns lots of land that way.


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## bent20

The mall needs to be demolished, most of it anyway. Casinos can generate some surrounding development, but if it goes out east that area is already growing like wildfire. I think a real problem for TH could be more business going in around 46 and 70 and along the bypass, and then you have another blighted area (all of 41 going south from 70).


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## SycamoreStateofMind

bent20 said:


> The mall needs to be demolished, most of it anyway. Casinos can generate some surrounding development, but if it goes out east that area is already growing like wildfire. I think a real problem for TH could be more business going in around 46 and 70 and along the bypass, and then you have another blighted area (all of 41 going south from 70).



Fair point - don’t know if that will happen but it’s a solid idea.


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## IndyTreeFan

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> ITF - to be clear my commentary about people was general in nature just so you aware. That said, now that you’ve posted I really am surprised that your still worried about his potential conflict of interest. He’s removed himself as a board member of the CIB. What more do you want him to do??
> 
> Is he doing this for his own benefit? Sure as shit he is - who wouldn’t. Let me tell you - he’s one of the few people that’s really trying to help move Terre Haute forward. I’m shocked that a “conflict of interest” would draw so much attention...



Look, I have no problem with Greg Gibson making money in any endeavor he chooses. He’s an entrepreneur - he takes risk, and if he’s good and has done his homework, he makes money. I love that. There’s no doubt that he is helping boost the image of Terre Haute by investing as he does. The guy is an asset to the TH community. The only reason I brought up the conflict of interest in this case is because there isn’t one. He’s doing a good thing and playing by both the letter and spirit of the rules.

I obviously can’t write worth a damn. I was trying to be supportive and optimistic about this project, and no one got that at all. Guess I’m never gonna write the Great American Novel...:lol:


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## sycamore tuff

Greg is so awesome!  We are so lucky to have him.  Without him nothing would get done in Terre Haute.  Maybe he can build the casino in Deming Park or maybe Fowler Park.  We just need the powers that be to sell the land to him a a discount price.  I do believe that is what he tried to do with the Vigo County fair grounds.  If That doesn't work then maybe he could get the state to let him shut down 3rd street.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

sycamore tuff said:


> Greg is so awesome!  We are so lucky to have him.  Without him nothing would get done in Terre Haute.  Maybe he can build the casino in Deming Park or maybe Fowler Park.  We just need the powers that be to sell the land to him a a discount price.  I do believe that is what he tried to do with the Vigo County fair grounds.  If That doesn't work then maybe he could get the state to let him shut down 3rd street.



This is the shit I’m talking about. This right here is pure gold. 

A condescending post to try and present everyone else as mere pawns.... It’s such a ridiculous assertion. But this was a classic way to present it! Well done.


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## Jason Svoboda

I said it before, statistics have shown building casinos actually hurts the local citizens. Damn near every area in Indiana that has had one opened has had a net negative effect. Evansville, for example, has seen per capita income go down since the casinos there came online. 

https://www.sycamorepride.com/showthread.php?37794-Casino

I'm not opposed to this getting done as long as there are plans for the increase in social programs that will be necessary to offset folks spending their income there. I don't give a shit about single households, but families with children shouldn't suffer because their parents are damned idiots.


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## niklz62

Jason Svoboda said:


> I said it before, statistics have shown building casinos actually hurts the local citizens. Damn near every area in Indiana that has had one opened has had a net negative effect. Evansville, for example, has seen per capita income go down since the casinos there came online.
> 
> https://www.sycamorepride.com/showthread.php?37794-Casino
> 
> I'm not opposed to this getting done as long as there are plans for the increase in social programs that will be necessary to offset folks spending their income there. I don't give a shit about single households, but families with children shouldn't suffer because their parents are damned idiots.



did we decide if that was causation or correlation?


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## Jason Svoboda

niklz62 said:


> did we decide if that was causation or correlation?



Good question. I thought I read an IBR article that showed causation when I was reading on it. I'm sure there are a multitude of factors that go into the overall numbers. I know Evansville has had a bit of a shot in the arm since they went from boat to land -- I assume that created more jobs. My biggest thing is poor people (by and large) typically make bad decisions so I'd just like to know they have a plan for it before they open up shop. 

There is a ton of data available here: http://www.stats.indiana.edu/


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## niklz62

i would believe either way on that research.  I know it comes up in Probation in areas with casinos here in illinois however im not sure its legality affects how much of a problems it is.  Ive seen our profession actively make problems where they arent so take that with a grain of salt.


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## swsycamore

The casino at Elizabeth has been a real shot in the arm for that part of southern Indiana


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## SycamoreStateofMind

More information continues to come in https://www.wthitv.com/content/news/Casino-company-places-second-bet-on-Terre-Haute-502360422.html

I've got to think this has a really strong possibility of becoming a reality at this point. 

With all that is going on with the jail location (yet-to-be-determined) it shall be very interesting to see where the propose for this casino to be located... I'd be somewhat surprised that the river front doesn't interest Gibson. His family invested in the new ISU Gibson Track on the Riverfront. It would be reasonably close to his new convention center and hotel. 

I'd say the east side and the riverfront have to be the best two options at this point in time.


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## IndyTreeFan

This could get interesting.  Terre Haute with TWO casinos?  That would certainly open up some investment in the area.  Two big resorts right on the riverfront.  That could really spur the development of a "Riverwalk," much like what San Antonio has.  But that would require the jail to NOT be on the riverfront.

I like it!  However, those of you that live there, please make it clear to your elected officials that casinos are not, in and of themselves, an economic development plan!!!  I'm afraid that the elected officials over there will think, "Hey, we've got casinos!  Great!  We're done now..."


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## SycamoreStateofMind

IndyTreeFan said:


> This could get interesting.  Terre Haute with TWO casinos?  That would certainly open up some investment in the area.  Two big resorts right on the riverfront.  That could really spur the development of a "Riverwalk," much like what San Antonio has.  But that would require the jail to NOT be on the riverfront.
> 
> I like it!  However, those of you that live there, please make it clear to your elected officials that casinos are not, in and of themselves, an economic development plan!!!  I'm afraid that the elected officials over there will think, "Hey, we've got casinos!  Great!  We're done now..."



All true. Although I didn’t necessarily gather we’d go from zero to two. I gathered that they want the Gibson project to be able to bid for some of the unused machines that they have for the new Gibson facility. Could be very wrong as I know nothing about the casino business. 

They’ve got a group of investors that wants to put an amp theater for concerts on the river - that is already in the works potentially but the investors have no issues (from what I gathered) with the jail which is ironic. Then again - unlesses they sided with public officials on that jail project it would have probably been an uphill battle for them - because Terre Haute is super ridiculous when it comes to this shit... 

If the county officials and Riverscape haven’t reached out to Gibson about casino/ river potential I’d be shocked. It seems this is vert much a day-by-day situation where a lot of things are at play. 

Regardless of where the jail goes - I’m utterly amazed at how hell bent certain politicians in this community are on making sure it goes in that one friggin location. It’s bizarre.


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## IndyTreeFan

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Regardless of where the jail goes - I’m utterly amazed at how hell bent certain politicians in this community are on making sure it goes in that one friggin location. It’s bizarre.



That's the truth...


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## Gotta Hav

Does anyone know why the state would approve a Casino in Terre Haute, when placing one in Indy would generate about 100 x's the Taxes and Revenue for the state?

Yes, there's one in Anderson...but I just don't see where all the attendee's for a Terre Haute casino would draw from.

There's just NOT enough people in Clay, Sullivan, Owen, Greene, Vermillion, Parke, Putnam, etc, and the equally sparse and equally financially challenged counties across the river in Illinois.   Heck...add in Knox and Davies counties....and it's still a stretch....especially since there's an existing Casino in French Lick.

What am I missing?


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## niklz62

Gotta Hav said:


> Does anyone know why the state would approve a Casino in Terre Haute, when placing one in Indy would generate about 100 x's the Taxes and Revenue for the state?
> 
> Yes, there's one in Anderson...but I just don't see where all the attendee's for a Terre Haute casino would draw from.
> 
> There's just NOT enough people in Clay, Sullivan, Owen, Greene, Vermillion, Parke, Putnam, etc, and the equally sparse and equally financially challenged counties across the river in Illinois.   Heck...add in Knox and Davies counties....and it's still a stretch....especially since there's an existing Casino in French Lick.
> 
> What am I missing?



I think if you look at the distance in illinois you could draw from. Your options are Peoria or St Louis. I know a lit of people willing to drive to evansville or st louis. I suspect it would work in Terre Haute

I’m nit sure why the state should be deciding what communities get one anyway bur thats another whole argument


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## SycamoreStateofMind

If they put one in Indy and bypassed Terre Haute again people would be bitching and moaning "why not us". The fact that we've got some people interested in bringing it to Terre Haute and not Indy we got people going "Gibson is a bum", "it will never work", "it brings too much crime" etc. etc. I suppose it's like with everything - you're going not going to have 100% support for a project no matter... 

I guess I'm somewhat interested in seeing the scope of the project before I pass judgement. If were talking a full scale casino with live dealers attached to a nice hotel with some restaurant options in the right location I could see this being a really nice deal for Terre Haute. 

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the number of rural communities surrounding Terre Haute in virtually every direction. You've also got some other communities that you will be able to pull people in from for instance Lafayette (pop 67,000), Plainfield (pop 27,000), Effingham, IL (pop 12,500), Matton, IL (pop 18,000). I just don't think you can so easily discount these communities and some other more rural areas. Many of these farming communities have wealthy people and they don't have any other forms of entertainment to spend money on. I know several that travel great distances to frequent casinos.


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## niklz62

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> If they put one in Indy and bypassed Terre Haute again people would be bitching and moaning "why not us". The fact that we've got some people interested in bringing it to Terre Haute and not Indy we got people going "Gibson is a bum", "it will never work", "it brings too much crime" etc. etc. I suppose it's like with everything - you're going not going to have 100% support for a project no matter...
> 
> I guess I'm somewhat interested in seeing the scope of the project before I pass judgement. If were talking a full scale casino with live dealers attached to a nice hotel with some restaurant options in the right location I could see this being a really nice deal for Terre Haute.
> 
> I wouldn't be so quick to discount the number of rural communities surrounding Terre Haute in virtually every direction. You've also got some other communities that you will be able to pull people in from for instance Lafayette (pop 67,000), Plainfield (pop 27,000), Effingham, IL (pop 12,500), *Matton, IL (pop 18,000)*. I just don't think you can so easily discount these rural communities. Many of these farming communities have wealthy people and they don't have any other forms of entertainment to spend money on. I know several that travel great distances to frequent casinos.



throw in Charleston and its in the neighborhood of 40,000


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## SycamoreStateofMind

niklz62 said:


> throw in Charleston and its in the neighborhood of 40,000



Absolutely- how could I forget Charleston. Gods Country! Lol


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## niklz62

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Absolutely- how could I forget Charleston. Gods Country! Lol



ive been trying for 18 years


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## IndyTreeFan

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> I guess I'm somewhat interested in seeing the scope of the project before I pass judgement. If were talking a full scale casino with live dealers attached to a nice hotel with some restaurant options in the right location I could see this being a really nice deal for Terre Haute.
> 
> I just don't think you can so easily discount these communities and some other more rural areas. Many of these farming communities have wealthy people and they don't have any other forms of entertainment to spend money on. I know several that travel great distances to frequent casinos.



IF they do this right, as you outlined above, you're correct, this could be a really nice deal for Terre Haute.  It would be an opportunity for the city to clean itself up, put on its "Sunday Best," and give people other reasons to come to Terre Haute in addition to the casino.  Who knows, if the team got good, you could even start to pull in some new basketball and football fans that might buy a ticket, see a game, then go to the casino.  

This could be a nice shot in the arm for TH.  Hopefully it'll be a really nice casino/resort, and not just a room filled with electronic games.  I will be interested to see further details on what they want to do.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

IndyTreeFan said:


> IF they do this right, as you outlined above, you're correct, this could be a really nice deal for Terre Haute.  It would be an opportunity for the city to clean itself up, put on its "Sunday Best," and give people other reasons to come to Terre Haute in addition to the casino.  Who knows, if the team got good, you could even start to pull in some new basketball and football fans that might buy a ticket, see a game, then go to the casino.
> 
> This could be a nice shot in the arm for TH.  Hopefully it'll be a really nice casino/resort, and not just a room filled with electronic games.  I will be interested to see further details on what they want to do.



If we aint talking live dealers or the plan to eventually have live dealers I'm not that interested in this opportunity... So it's likely just some electronic bull shit since that is what I don't want.


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## niklz62

IndyTreeFan said:


> IF they do this right, as you outlined above, you're correct, this could be a really nice deal for Terre Haute.  It would be an opportunity for the city to clean itself up, put on its "Sunday Best," and give people other reasons to come to Terre Haute in addition to the casino.  Who knows, if the team got good, you could even start to pull in some new basketball and football fans that might buy a ticket, see a game, then go to the casino.
> 
> This could be a nice shot in the arm for TH.  Hopefully it'll be a really nice casino/resort, and not just a room filled with electronic games.  I will be interested to see further details on what they want to do.



I got the feeling it wouldnt just be electronic games.  It kind of went like "you could draw from Indy because the one close to them just has electronic games"


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## Sycamore Proud

Maybe it's time to put all cirremt plans on hold, and let the movers and chakers more and shake.  Why not consider a casino/hotel and convention center and football stadium complex on the river?


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## southernindianaballer

Sycamore Proud said:


> Maybe it's time to put all cirremt plans on hold, and let the movers and chakers more and shake.  Why not consider a casino/hotel and convention center and football stadium complex on the river?



Agree 100%... I said several months ago a convention center, stadium, hotel and casino are perfect.  7-10k people in for a football game several times a year.  Bringing Diesel Fest events to the casino/stadium/convention center - that will make money!   Each football game becomes a potential all day event with shows and eats following the game with some gambling.  LOL  Retractable seating with a capacity of 15-20k is possible and makes the convention center much more versatile for large farm/ag shows and could even compete for big space events.  I'm serious... An open convention center design with retractable seating all around.  Ability to navigate with ease between casino, hotel and convention area/stadium.  Don't forget the Bird museum.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

https://www.tribstar.com/news/local...cle_a3a35634-1891-59b7-9d3b-d7414a81148d.html

Some thought provoking opinions here... This kind of a thing isn't going to come about without some people in opposition - I'm not naive to that. I liked the quote about a 2nd Menards, 3rd Walmart, 5th Starbucks etc. etc. basically suggesting it just shifts where the money is spent it doesn't necessarily presume more money will be spent. I could argue that but I won't - I just found it to be an interesting take. 

The question really comes down to - can Terre Haute compete for gamblers that would otherwise go to St. Louis, Peoria, Evansville, French Lick and Shelbytuckey?


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## Southgrad07

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> https://www.tribstar.com/news/local...cle_a3a35634-1891-59b7-9d3b-d7414a81148d.html
> 
> Some thought provoking opinions here... This kind of a thing isn't going to come about without some people in opposition - I'm not naive to that. I liked the quote about a 2nd Menards, 3rd Walmart, 5th Starbucks etc. etc. basically suggesting it just shifts where the money is spent it doesn't necessarily presume more money will be spent. I could argue that but I won't - I just found it to be an interesting take.
> 
> The question really comes down to - can Terre Haute compete for gamblers that would otherwise go to St. Louis, Peoria, Evansville, French Lick and Shelbytuckey?



I agree. IF we decide to build one then it needs to be done right and be part of a bigger downtown attraction plan. If you can't get people to choose us over the areas above (given similar distance for the individual making the decision) then it is a poor choice IMO to bring one in.


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## niklz62

I like when people say WE.  I don’t know why anyone who isnt putting their own money in on it gets an opinion other than “it would be nice”.


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## rapala

When the convention center plans were released, it was stated that we could possibly save the copper bar and the terminal building.  Wonder if that Greg had all of this in mind?


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## Southgrad07

niklz62 said:


> I like when people say WE.  I don’t know why anyone who isnt putting their own money in on it gets an opinion other than “it would be nice”.



because WE care about the future development of the town WE live in and our kids are growing up in..Not rocket science boss


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## SycamoreStateofMind

rapala said:


> When the convention center plans were released, it was stated that we could possibly save the copper bar and the terminal building.  Wonder if that Greg had all of this in mind?



*The year is not 1989 and this is not a video game. What video game would I be speaking of (answer at the end)? I'd hate to guess at "what Gibson had in his mind" - but since it's a message board I will attempt to guess:*

- I think his plan was always to preserve the Copper and Terminal and hope was in doing so that they would be reinvigorated by the convention center and hotel projects. That all said - I've heard several people tell me that structurally the Terminal has issues?? Not sure if that is fact or not - regardless both Copper and Terminal appear to be in need of a major renovation. 

- I've got to think the casino opportunity came up around the same time he was engaged with the HC project and he viewed both projects as mutually exclusive to one another. In doing so, I'm sure he thought that the convention center and downtown hotel could benefit eventually from a casino but I don't believe that it was ever intend that the projects would be connected by anything other than his money/name. I also think that he knows better than to further delay one development (convention center) in hopes that a casino with a high probability of being denied is actually approved. Even if the timelines did work - I'm certain the downtown footprint wouldn't allow for both to be constructed - not without closing a couple God forsaken streets anyway. 

*We don't live in a perfect world and even if we did Terre Haute would still be far far far from perfect. In a perfect world sure we would have: *

- A standalone Football Stadium on the campus/river. With a retractable roof that doubled as a convention center that tripled as a horse track and so on... 

- The only possibility of a football stadium on the river in the foreseeable future was if they were able to make a joint facility in conjunction with the track. I was recently told the track was constructed in a way that a football field could be built inside of it. Even if that is the case having seen the facility I'm not sure that is a great option for our football stadium. I was in favor of building a track in a football stadium. I'm not in favor of building a football stadium around a track. The spectator sport that should have taken prescient when building this facility should have been football - unfortunately ISU Brass, alums, former players didn't see it this way. Now you have Memorial Stadium with a new field, new lights, new practice field - enjoy! 

- A casino on the river is likely not going to happen. I think the jail probably ends up on the river front and occupies a large chunk of riverfront real-estate. Once that location is spoken for I'm not where else they could build it that would make sense. 


*In talking about these endless possibilities it's like people suddenly forgot about the fact that: *

- We've been sitting on state allocated dollars for over 3 years and were not able to renovate the Hulman Center into a multi-use convention center and museum. 

- People are upset with Gibson for closing a road and building a convention center, a hotel and a parking garage in the bustling city of downtown Terre Haute. 

- City political leaders have been arguing with the public for over 2 years now on where/how/why/when to build a jail. 
*
But in a perfect world if we could have a convention center, hotel, parking garage, football stadium, casino and amphitheater all developed with each-other in mind that would be a beautiful thing. But the year is not 1989 and (answer) we're not playing Sim City here - all of those things are not going to happen in the first place and they are most certainly all not going to happen in complete harmony with one another.*


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## IndyTreeFan

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> *The year is not 1989 and this is not a video game. What video game would I be speaking of (answer at the end)? I'd hate to guess at "what Gibson had in his mind" - but since it's a message board I will attempt to guess:*
> 
> - I think his plan was always to preserve the Copper and Terminal and hope was in doing so that they would be reinvigorated by the convention center and hotel projects. That all said - I've heard several people tell me that structurally the Terminal has issues?? Not sure if that is fact or not - regardless both Copper and Terminal appear to be in need of a major renovation.
> 
> - I've got to think the casino opportunity came up around the same time he was engaged with the HC project and he viewed both projects as mutually exclusive to one another. In doing so, I'm sure he thought that the convention center and downtown hotel could benefit eventually from a casino but I don't believe that it was ever intend that the projects would be connected by anything other than his money/name. I also think that he knows better than to further delay one development (convention center) in hopes that a casino with a high probability of being denied is actually approved. Even if the timelines did work - I'm certain the downtown footprint wouldn't allow for both to be constructed - not without closing a couple God forsaken streets anyway.
> 
> *We don't live in a perfect world and even if we did Terre Haute would still be far far far from perfect. In a perfect world sure we would have: *
> 
> - A standalone Football Stadium on the campus/river. With a retractable roof that doubled as a convention center that tripled as a horse track and so on...
> 
> - The only possibility of a football stadium on the river in the foreseeable future was if they were able to make a joint facility in conjunction with the track. I was recently told the track was constructed in a way that a football field could be built inside of it. Even if that is the case having seen the facility I'm not sure that is a great option for our football stadium. I was in favor of building a track in a football stadium. I'm not in favor of building a football stadium around a track. The spectator sport that should have taken prescient when building this facility should have been football - unfortunately ISU Brass, alums, former players didn't see it this way. Now you have Memorial Stadium with a new field, new lights, new practice field - enjoy!
> 
> - A casino on the river is likely not going to happen. I think the jail probably ends up on the river front and occupies a large chunk of riverfront real-estate. Once that location is spoken for I'm not where else they could build it that would make sense.
> 
> 
> *In talking about these endless possibilities it's like people suddenly forgot about the fact that: *
> 
> - We've been sitting on state allocated dollars for over 3 years and were not able to renovate the Hulman Center into a multi-use convention center and museum.
> 
> - People are upset with Gibson for closing a road and building a convention center, a hotel and a parking garage in the bustling city of downtown Terre Haute.
> 
> - City political leaders have been arguing with the public for over 2 years now on where/how/why/when to build a jail.
> *
> But in a perfect world if we could have a convention center, hotel, parking garage, football stadium, casino and amphitheater all developed with each-other in mind that would be a beautiful thing. But the year is not 1989 and (answer) we're not playing Sim City here - all of those things are not going to happen in the first place and they are most certainly all not going to happen in complete harmony with one another.*



Not sure how this comment fits with what you just wrote, most of which was really good, but this is the thought I had while reading it - part of Terre Haute's problem is that NO PROJECTS happen in harmony with each other.  That's what makes no sense to me with the jail - they're taking a big chunk of the riverfront and removing it from ever being used to create something cool.  That's the definition of short sighted.  I'm not sure why the convention center, a proposed football stadium, amphitheater, resort/casino can't happen in concert with one another.  If the city/county had any decent leadership, these projects would be a part of a well thought out master plan.  But this is Terre Haute and Vigo County we're talking about.  Too many little kings building too many little kingdoms.  Really pathetic, but as you state, it's reality.

I'm now on Gibson's side - as a private citizen, take the risk, make the money.  That's what business is all about.  But he's dealing with a government that put the FUN in dysfunctional.  So many possibilities being discussed.  Most of which will never happen because of this dysfunction.  Sad...


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## SycamoreStateofMind

IndyTreeFan said:


> Not sure how this comment fits with what you just wrote, most of which was really good, but this is the thought I had while reading it - part of Terre Haute's problem is that NO PROJECTS happen in harmony with each other.  That's what makes no sense to me with the jail - they're taking a big chunk of the riverfront and removing it from ever being used to create something cool.  That's the definition of short sighted.  I'm not sure why the convention center, a proposed football stadium, amphitheater, resort/casino can't happen in concert with one another.  If the city/county had any decent leadership, these projects would be a part of a well thought out master plan.  But this is Terre Haute and Vigo County we're talking about.  Too many little kings building too many little kingdoms.  Really pathetic, but as you state, it's reality.
> 
> I'm now on Gibson's side - as a private citizen, take the risk, make the money.  That's what business is all about.  But he's dealing with a government that put the FUN in dysfunctional.  So many possibilities being discussed.  Most of which will never happen because of this dysfunction.  Sad...



God the curious side of me really wants to ask someone closer to all of this than myself - "who approached who or has anyone approached anyone? Did city/county officials contact Gibson when they heard of the possibility of a casino and ask him if the riverfront would be considered?" I mean - he was working with them in conjunction with the CIB on the proposed convention center they had to discuss all of this. Right?!

My gut tells me that river wasn't ever considered or discussed for a potential casino because certain elected officials are so hell bent on that location in the first place and again the timeline doesn't really work. We need a new jail sooner than later and who knows if/when a casino will actually happen. Hell - given the remote possibility of a casino I would hope they would just find another location for the jail but that simply aint going to happen. 

As you said - it's very short-sighted. The reality of the situation is the bitch of it all. Don't think for a second that Indianapolis and state political leaders are not taking a hard look at Terre Haute and going - "do we really think they can get a casino right?" 

Redundant but just so those keeping track at home can see the incompetency of this town all in one space:

- Hell bent on putting a jail on prime riverfront property. 2 years and counting - no decision. 

- School superintended and board all basically removed for major ethical and legal violations. 

- 3 highschools that are outdated and in horrible condition. All headed for public referendum? Maybe? 

- State funding awarded in 2015 for the HC which has just now started within the last 2 months. 

- A convention center that was supposed to be part of the project and they got sideways with one another and put the gloves on and let it all play out in the media.

I mean all of this drama unfolding in the last 5 years. We're lucky Greg Gibson is investing any money in this town and even putting his name on the line in the first place - given all that went on with the HC he could have pulled the plug completely on the convention center, hotel, parking garage and now possibility of a casino. Rather - he flexed his muscles and had an impact on who became the next President of Indiana State University and he's basically single handily heading up some of the largest economic development projects this town has ever seen.


----------



## meistro

Greg Gibson is the only reason I think this stuff (casino, convention center) can actually happen. The man obviously knows how to make money and make things happen, which go hand in hand. I don't know him, but judging from his interviews, I think he's made lots of money and now wants his legacy to be helping Terre Haute thrive. I hope he succeeds.


----------



## Westbadenboy

All of this is very interesting and I hope most ...all...of it gets done ----done right.

But can anyone explain to me the rationale (whether or not you agree with it) that's being given for putting a new jail along the river ?  What reason are officials giving for placing it there ?


I really mean it when I say I hope these projects get done and well done.  But from Ralph Tucker to Leland Larrison to the present, things never seems to work out well for Terre Haute.  Lots of factors at the root, but I'm back there several times a year and I'm hoping for the best …..hoping


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Arguments for the jail location on the river. 

Location - close proximity to court house (transporting inmates to & from the jail to court). Inside city limits - again keeping down costs for bringing in criminals. 

Pod Style Jail - The design of a jail they want to build needs to be built on a larger plot of land than what the current jail and adjoining parking lots provide. In truth - I don’t know what a pod style jail is vs. other designs?? 

Stubbornness - people that really just want to win a pissing match with the public. I’m not sure what else it comes down to?! 

Not really on the river - this argument is lame as F but some (Nasser for Mayor) claim it’s not technically on the river because it’s on such a large plot of land. He obviously doesn’t get the bigger picture.


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## Westbadenboy

I'd say #3 is your winner !


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Can they not get some land right across the river in WTH?


----------



## niklz62

Jason Svoboda said:


> Can they not get some land right across the river in WTH?



I was wondering this.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Jason Svoboda said:


> Can they not get some land right across the river in WTH?



Never heard of it.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

I mean if you get on Beacon and look at the east side of the town you really would be hard pressed to find enough land to build a casino. Gibson owns a decent size chunk of land between Walmart and the new hotel on the west side of US 40 - but it doesn't appear to be close to enough space for a casino/parking. 

Then he owns another pretty good chunk of land on the east side between Meijer, Wabash Valley Asphalt and the TH Airport. If any location makes sense it's probably this property but again the casino will be located between a grocery store and an Asphalt company - which seems like a pretty Terre Haute thing to do. 

Beyond that - he doesn't control as much land/opportunity to benefit as I originally thought. I asked a pretty good local source that I ran into this morning at Java Haute and he thinks the river is the best location and he's not convinced that the zoning will get approved for the river/jail. He doesn't think that is going to happen - he would know. 

Conspiracy is that if indeed another casino/buyer could be looking at Terre Haute then they would be looking at the river location and that perhaps Gibson is looking out East - Gibson would want to see the jail on the river so they have no location on the river to build... Again - conspiracy.

I'm going to stand firm - I think the state of Indiana is not all that excited about the potential for a new casino in Terre Haute.


----------



## meistro

Jason Svoboda said:


> Can they not get some land right across the river in WTH?



Good idea, are you thinking jail or casino?


----------



## IndyTreeFan

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> I mean if you get on Beacon and look at the east side of the town you really would be hard pressed to find enough land to build a casino. Gibson owns a decent size chunk of land between Walmart and the new hotel on the west side of US 40 - but it doesn't appear to be close to enough space for a casino/parking.
> 
> Then he owns another pretty good chunk of land on the east side between Meijer, Wabash Valley Asphalt and the TH Airport. If any location makes sense it's probably this property but again the casino will be located between a grocery store and an Asphalt company - which seems like a pretty Terre Haute thing to do.
> 
> Beyond that - he doesn't control as much land/opportunity to benefit as I originally thought. *I asked a pretty good local source that I ran into this morning at Java Haute and he thinks the river is the best location and he's not convinced that the zoning will get approved for the river/jail. He doesn't think that is going to happen - he would know.
> *
> Conspiracy is that if indeed another casino/buyer could be looking at Terre Haute then they would be looking at the river location and that perhaps Gibson is looking out East - Gibson would want to see the jail on the river so they have no location on the river to build... Again - conspiracy.
> 
> I'm going to stand firm - I think the state of Indiana is not all that excited about the potential for a new casino in Terre Haute.



Sometimes I wonder if the local pols ever think of what their reputation is in Indy?  And by extension, the reputation of TH/Vigo County?  They look like idiots.  They got completely dressed down by the chairman of the State Senate Appropriations Committee during the HC/Convention Center debacle for dragging their feet.  I'm sure the state doesn't look favorably on Terre Haute because the state is convinced it's run by mental midgets at best, and corrupt grifters at worst.

I hope your source is right, and that the rezoning thing doesn't happen.  Put the jail at 13th and Hulman on the old Coke Plant site.  Get Superfund money to clean up the rest of the stuff that needs cleaned up (didn't they do that once already?) and stick the jail there.  It's already commercial/industrial, isn't that far from the courthouse (2.2 miles), and doesn't remove potentially valuable riverfront land from better uses.  

That or use some land that the federal pen sits on.  A land deal was already proffered to Vigo County and they rejected it.  Either of these two seems a no brainer to me.  But, then again, I don't live there anymore, so what do I know?  :cheeky:


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## niklz62

It seems to me, that unless you put the jail where they can walk inmates to the court house, it doesnt really matter where it is within reason.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

niklz62 said:


> It seems to me, that unless you put the jail where they can walk inmates to the court house, it doesn't really matter where it is within reason.



To your point it's 2019 - why are we even bringing these inmates from a jail to a court house anyway. If physicians can diagnose and write scripts via video/phone/app/ why can't these judges hand down sentencing or have bond hearings or whatever it is they need to do via video. Why are we so damn concerned with the distance the new/proposed jail location is to our court system in the first place. 

Well it's a long drive for cops to take criminals to south industrial park. Well I live near the south industrial park and work downtown - I've got about 4 different ways I can get to that side of town in 20 minutes or less. Granted that is 40 minutes round trip - but that is just the way it goes. If you don't want to go that far south - like ITF suggested just go to the federal/state penn location. 

Preaching to the choir on here and wasting my time. But I feel better.


----------



## niklz62

Im not sure of the legalities in your state for video.  I know we do that here.  they used to have a court room in the jail.  we also have a tunnel that goes the 2 blocks to the court house.  

if they cant do that, they should change the rule.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Source correct! I love sources 8-1 NO to rezone that property for a jail... Wild!!!


----------



## IndyTreeFan

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Source correct! I love sources 8-1 NO to rezone that property for a jail... Wild!!!



Now we’ll get to see how obstinate the county officials are. Will they sue?  Or will they accept the decision and move on?


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

IndyTreeFan said:


> Now we’ll get to see how obstinate the county officials are. Will they sue?  Or will they accept the decision and move on?



My guess is they will move on. 

- Federal and State Pen Location. 

- 13th and Hulman Location. (Will need to do some more brownfield work - it’s a mess)

- South Industrial Park Location. 

- West T / Toad Hop Location. (Will need to purchase more land though)

4 decent options potentially on the table. They will be okay, feelings aside and all!


----------



## Gotta Hav

Jason Svoboda said:


> Can they not get some land right across the river in WTH?



Do you mean Taylorville (Dresser)?  What a dump.  Well literally, it was a dump.  https://wthhistory.wordpress.com/2015/02/14/taylorville-60-acres-of-hell/

And if your talking acreage just south of Taylorville, that land is a mess too....

Though NOT an EPA Superfund site, it probably should be.  There are 350 acres that Commercial Solvents (Pittman-Moore, Mallincrodt, Schering-Plough) owned over there, and there are still massive pipes in the Wabash that came from aforementioned site on 1st Street to the land across the river....not only did Commercial Solvents (and the others) pump gawd who knows what over there for decades, they buried their drums over there too.  If the EPA ever Core Sampled that land over there, it probably wouldn't be pretty.


----------



## Daveinth

Gotta Hav said:


> Do you mean Taylorville (Dresser)?  What a dump.  Well literally, it was a dump.  https://wthhistory.wordpress.com/2015/02/14/taylorville-60-acres-of-hell/
> 
> And if your talking acreage just south of Taylorville, that land is a mess too....
> 
> Though NOT an EPA Superfund site, it probably should be.  There are 350 acres that Commercial Solvents (Pittman-Moore, Mallincrodt, Schering-Plough) owned over there, and there are still massive pipes in the Wabash that came from aforementioned site on 1st Street to the land across the river....not only did Commercial Solvents (and the others) pump gawd who knows what over there for decades, they buried their drums over there too.  If the EPA ever Core Sampled that land over there, it probably wouldn't be pretty.



I personally do not get the attraction for the old IP property I mean there is industrial waste there as well . The property actually sits away from the river , Between the river and anything that is built is the retention ponds for the Sewage disposal plant right down 63 . People are acting like this land is so valuable I honestly do not get it how many of you want to walk along the river and bang you have sewage in your way. Or lets build a nice resturant I mena whats better than eating a nice juicy rib eye and the smell of turds when the river rises . .


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Daveinth said:


> I personally do not get the attraction for the old IP property I mean there is industrial waste there as well . The property actually sits away from the river , Between the river and anything that is built is the retention ponds for the Sewage disposal plant right down 63 . People are acting like this land is so valuable I honestly do not get it how many of you want to walk along the river and bang you have sewage in your way. Or lets build a nice resturant I mena whats better than eating a nice juicy rib eye and the smell of turds when the river rises . .



I think 20 years ago if you took 100 people out to the east side of town, past Dobbs Park, past the Airport and to a former dump site and you told them our plan is to convert this former dump site and reclaimed coal mine into a one of the most revered cross country courses in all the land - it will host multiple NCAA D1 National Championships, it will host the IHSAA State Cross Country meets and thousands of kids a year will come here to race on this former dump. My guess is 99 out of 100 would have said you're crazy and you're wasting your time. 

https://www.tribstar.com/news/local...cle_6ae168f8-392f-5e7e-9fce-b702c16e1e7c.html

If one of those 99 out of 100 wasn't John McNichols then it would have never came to be. I get that location might not come across at first glance as the most desirable location - but it doesn't mean someone with a vision can' transform it. That vision becomes much more difficult had they approved the rezoning and built a jail on that land. 

Here is what happened - sure you have a group of people that really believe in "Riverscape" and what they are trying to do. The majority of people that don't want to see this jail go on the river probably didn't even know what Riverscape was before all of this started - hell they still probably don't care. The way the county tried to force this single location in a city/county of this size on people without even seriously considering other locations pissed people off - it gave them a reason to support the Riverscape.


----------



## niklz62

If you built right across the west side of the river, wouldnt flooding be a problem?


----------



## Daveinth

niklz62 said:


> If you built right across the west side of the river, wouldnt flooding be a problem?


Not only flooding but environmental nightmare. Weston (pre Ip) used that area as their spray fields .


----------



## Gotta Hav

Daveinth said:


> I personally do not get the attraction for the old IP property I mean there is industrial waste there as well . The property actually sits away from the river , Between the river and anything that is built is the retention ponds for the Sewage disposal plant right down 63 . People are acting like this land is so valuable I honestly do not get it how many of you want to walk along the river and bang you have sewage in your way. Or lets build a nice resturant I mena whats better than eating a nice juicy rib eye and the smell of turds when the river rises . .



And to throw the last log on the Banks of the Wabash River Fire, the Western Tar Products plant.  I only hoped that fumes from this heavy industrial factory wouldn't take the paint off of my car as I drove by.   How does a 100 year old creosote plant, not have problems with its soil and groundwater yet today...or for that matter, pollution problems for the next 100 years.

https://www.tribstar.com/news/local...cle_8bc38ae6-a6d2-5b67-8524-d72960a41c5d.html


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Amazing as it would seem - maybe to most not really - but since it's been in this town my entire life it's quite amazing. It appears the end of the Honey Creek Mall could be near. Another store left - owners are apprently trying to sell... It wasn't what I had in mind for a casino location but it might make a good location - we will see if that ever happens.


----------



## SycamoreBlue3209

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Amazing as it would seem - maybe to most not really - but since it's been in this town my entire life it's quite amazing. It appears the end of the Honey Creek Mall could be near. Another store left - owners are apprently trying to sell... It wasn't what I had in mind for a casino location but it might make a good location - we will see if that ever happens.



I know this is unlikely since we didn’t “qualify” for a Target several years ago, but if we could put Target in the old Macy’s spot that would really revitalize the mall.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

SycamoreBlue3209 said:


> I know this is unlikely since we didn’t “qualify” for a Target several years ago, but if we could put Target in the old Macy’s spot that would really revitalize the mall.



Maybe a Target doubled with a Dicks Sporting Goods. And then maybe but lets be honest - a casino is more likely and neither is actually going to happen in that location.


----------



## 4Q_iu

A casino is simply wealth transfer; sadly most of the customers don't HAVE the wealth TO transfer...

Here's a sobering story, not a casino but as much of a predator...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mar...are-short-millions/ar-BBRy6iz?ocid=spartandhp


----------



## Bluethunder

4Q_iu said:


> A casino is simply wealth transfer; sadly most of the customers don't HAVE the wealth TO transfer...
> 
> Here's a sobering story, not a casino but as much of a predator...
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mar...are-short-millions/ar-BBRy6iz?ocid=spartandhp



But if everyone goes in with eyes wide open, who’s fault is it that people lose their money?

As a friend of mine says when describing any casino, “it wasn’t built by letting people win”.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Bluethunder said:


> But if everyone goes in with eyes wide open, who’s fault is it that people lose their money?
> 
> As a friend of mine says when describing any casino, “it wasn’t built by letting people win”.



*IF*everyone went in with their eyes wide open, you'd have a valid point.  However, too many people are CONVINCED they're going to be the next Big Winner...

your friend is correct, casinos are DESIGNED to take your money - period.

The idea that they bring any economic input to an area is arguable


----------



## niklz62

4Q_iu said:


> A casino is simply wealth transfer; sadly most of the customers don't HAVE the wealth TO transfer...
> 
> Here's a sobering story, not a casino but as much of a predator...
> 
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mar...are-short-millions/ar-BBRy6iz?ocid=spartandhp



The difference between that wealth transfer and the one government uses is that it’s voluntary and government uses the threat of imprisonment if you don’t give them your money.


----------



## 4Q_iu

niklz62 said:


> The difference between that wealth transfer and the one government uses is that it’s voluntary and government uses the threat of imprisonment if you don’t give them your money.



Given your address, you're not exactly a judge of good government but what "government wealth transfers" interest you?


----------



## niklz62

4Q_iu said:


> Given your address, you're not exactly a judge of good government but what "government wealth transfers" interest you?



i don’t live in Chicago so I’m not sure your assumption is valid, but what government transfers are you willing to incarcerate a person if they refuse to participate jn


----------



## sycamore tuff

I'm not a big fan of gambling. but I have said long ago that the reason the government does not like the mob is that the government does not like competition.  Maybe someone should sue them for antitrust violations.


----------



## krwilson2

Even if it is a short term thing (5-10 years), that is revenue for local and state gov't that is voluntary participation.  Would it be wise to call a casino a silver bullet for the local economy?  That feels short sighted. 

It will be interesting to see where the casinos are green lighted once the legislature gets the sports gaming bills enacted.


----------



## meistro

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Maybe a Target doubled with a Dicks Sporting Goods. And then maybe but lets be honest - a casino is more likely and neither is actually going to happen in that location.



I walked out of planet fitness the other day and it’s just sad what has happened with the retailers down there. I too remember the mall for as long as I’ve been alive and the hustle and bustle at Christmas time. Just as I’m sure people older than me remember the glory days of the downtown bustling with shoppers. Hard to believe that both may be a thing of the past. The mall could be a great spot for a casino and would definitely pump life back down there. I’m not a big gambler, but don’t have a problem with it. As far as the people who can least afford it making bad decisions. Sorry to say, but they will make them anyway. I see these same people that can’t afford groceries spending money on cigarettes and booze and drugs and cell phones they can’t afford, etc. it’s not that I don’t feel for them, it’s just that I believe in personal responsibility. And that’s something that a lot of people in this country have lost sight of. I’m sure the people who gave us the new deal were well intentioned. But the fact is we’ve created a society of takers and people that feel they’re entitled to something without working for it. Sorry for getting on my soapbox there. Back to the casino. I think Gibson will make it happen, but it’s more likely he’ll put it on land he already owns. Happy Nee Year Sycamore fans, I think it’s gonna be a good one.


----------



## Westbadenboy

Big article in Indy Star about shifting locations for casinos in Indiana --- several references to Terre Haute getting one.
We'll see ……………….


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...ether-license-gary-gets-relocated/2377691002/

This shit is going to get very interesting!!


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

I’ve got to think bringing a casino and any other developments that follow will have positive tax implications for the city - right?? A city/county that could use a shot in the arm - no?? 

All the sudden new highschools, new jail, new police department, riverfront development etc etc look more realistic. 

I’m no tax law expert but tell me why I’m wrong? It seems pretty easy and shortsighted to get into a moral debate about the negatives of bringing a casino...


----------



## Sycamore Proud

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> I’ve got to think bringing a casino and any other developments that follow will have positive tax implications for the city - right?? A city/county that could use a shot in the arm - no??
> 
> All the sudden new highschools, new jail, new police department, riverfront development etc etc look more realistic.
> 
> I’m no tax law expert but tell me why I’m wrong?




Would it surprise anyone if any new construction, businesses and attractions get such a sweet tax deal from the city/county/state that the result is a burden on already limited resources?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> I’ve got to think bringing a casino and any other developments that follow will have positive tax implications for the city - right?? A city/county that could use a shot in the arm - no??
> 
> All the sudden new highschools, new jail, new police department, riverfront development etc etc look more realistic.
> 
> I’m no tax law expert but tell me why I’m wrong? It seems pretty easy and shortsighted to get into a moral debate about the negatives of bringing a casino...



Depends on how things are negotiated. Here is a report of how 2016 shit was split. 

https://www.in.gov/sba/files/LGS_Distribution_Report_2016_Revised_03-08-17.pdf

And they appear to be changing the law so less taxes were being paid starting in 2021.

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...asinos-could-start-paying-less-taxes/97561330

So who is going to negotiate the split? If it's Gibson, that is a gigantic conflict of interest since it looks to be his casino project and he is on the boards that stand to get portions of the tax.


----------



## ISU02

It would be a vast mistake for T.H. and ISU athletics if a casino was to relocate there.  Once an observer peals back the thin veneer of philanthropic theatrics that casinos proudly advertises they are nothing more than a parasite on local economies.  The only exception is if the casino is owned, operated, and 100% of the proceeds are reinvested into the community, but that is never the case.  People who believe casinos provide any benefit economically to local economies don't understand economics.  What little increase in imported economic activity is always lost to the export of casino revenue.  They are a drain.   T.H.'s future needs to be directed elsewhere. Casinos didn't help: Evansville, Gary, Harrison County, Rising Sun, or Michigan City. What economic activity the casino captures is at the expense of other local businesses. A casino won't help T.H., and it will compete as an entertainment venue and resource for ISU athletics.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

ISU02 said:


> It would be a vast mistake for T.H. and ISU athletics if a casino was to relocate there.  Once an observer peals back the thin veneer of philanthropic theatrics that casinos proudly advertises they are nothing more than a parasite on local economies.  The only exception is if the casino is owned, operated, and 100% of the proceeds are reinvested into the community, but that is never the case.  People who believe casinos provide any benefit economically to local economies don't understand economics.  What little increase in imported economic activity is always lost to the export of casino revenue.  They are a drain.   T.H.'s future needs to be directed elsewhere. Casinos didn't help: Evansville, Gary, Harrison County, Rising Sun, or Michigan City. What economic activity the casino captures is at the expense of other local businesses. A casino won't help T.H., and it will compete as an entertainment venue and resource for ISU athletics.



Once upon a time I would have bought this... Things come and go in cycles - I feel like people with this opinion are people who have convinced themselves of this argument and are unwilling to hear any other arguments. You will forever believe that about casinos and nothing will convince you otherwise. 

I don't think the negative impact is near as devistating as you attempted to describe it. Nor do I think the positive impact is what some gaming industry "people" would lead us to believe. I think it's probably more neutral than that. 

I will also make the same arguments here as I did in defending the Gibson / Convention Center. If Gibson wants to invest his money, resources in Terre Haute why would anyone in the right mind try and get in the way of that? It's not your money or investment - who cares. Terre Haute literally has nothing to lose. The casino is not going to bankrupt Indiana State, SMWC, Rose Hulman and Ivy Tech - 4 of our largest most prominent employers. Beyond that, Gibson has been involved in many business ventures across the United States and is a highly successful business man - he understands economics as well as anyone wasting time posting on a message board - I can assure you.


----------



## JimMeyer72

Should a casino in a town on one of the busiest interstates in the country help the local economy? Yes locals will use it a lot but I'm sure alot of truckers or people traveling would to. It's income from other states that can help the city.


----------



## ISUCC

here's an article in tonight's Indy Star

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...ether-license-gary-gets-relocated/2377691002/


----------



## niklz62

I think a casino in TH would bring in not only gamblers who would otherwise go to chicago peoria st louis and evansville but also ammenities that people who are in rural areas between TH and cities like Champaign, Danville, Lafayette, Indy, Evansville ect. I have a lot more choices for about the same drive to champaign but I like TH and its nostalga for me but for a lot of people around me thats not the case so i think it will be a net positive for people coming jn who would otherwise chose a different town.


----------



## 4Q_iu

niklz62 said:


> I think a casino in TH would bring in not only gamblers who would otherwise go to chicago peoria st louis and evansville but also ammenities that people who are in rural areas between TH and cities like Champaign, Danville, Lafayette, Indy, Evansville ect. I have a lot more choices for about the same drive to champaign but I like TH and its nostalga for me but for a lot of people around me thats not the case so i think it will be a net positive for people coming jn who would otherwise chose a different town.




Casinos are designed to be self-supporting "islands"  --- who's going to stop off for a burger at Steak-N-Shake, a steak at T-H's finest when the casino is pushing their $13.99 'All-You-Can-Eat Seafood Buffet'?

few if any are going to have a cocktail at The Copper Bar and then go to the casino because the casino provides Free Drinks

10K people more make come to T-H than Evansville but the state won't be any wealthier -- it's simply moving the same $$ around within the state


----------



## 4Q_iu

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Once upon a time I would have bought this...



But then I remembered the platform on which I found it... 






SycamoreStateofMind said:


> … as anyone wasting time posting on a message board...


​
I'd be more interested in Greg's business skills if he didn't have Max in the background...




Happy New Year!  May everyone have a great 2019!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

niklz62 said:


> I think a casino in TH would bring in not only gamblers who would otherwise go to chicago peoria st louis and evansville but also ammenities that people who are in rural areas between TH and cities like Champaign, Danville, Lafayette, Indy, Evansville ect. I have a lot more choices for about the same drive to champaign but I like TH and its nostalga for me but for a lot of people around me thats not the case so i think it will be a net positive for people coming jn who would otherwise chose a different town.



Correct. What you'll have is just further dilution from current casinos. Someone say 45 minutes from the Haute but 2 hours from Evansville may now go to Terre Haute. Having going to Anderson, Shelbyville, French Lick, Evansville and Gary casinos, I can tell you I never spent a dollar (aside from a gas station) in the area outside of French Lick, and that only happened because it was a bachelor party and we stayed overnight. Everything else was a day trip -- go gamble/eat/show a bit and head back home. 

That is where you have to hope Terre Haute can land some nice sized conventions because you have a captive audience. I can also see it being a decent sell for Homecoming as the night before festivities is often dead.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Once upon a time I would have bought this... Things come and go in cycles - I feel like people with this opinion are people who have convinced themselves of this argument and are unwilling to hear any other arguments. You will forever believe that about casinos and nothing will convince you otherwise.
> 
> I don't think the negative impact is near as devistating as you attempted to describe it. Nor do I think the positive impact is what some gaming industry "people" would lead us to believe. I think it's probably more neutral than that.
> 
> I will also make the same arguments here as I did in defending the Gibson / Convention Center. If Gibson wants to invest his money, resources in Terre Haute why would anyone in the right mind try and get in the way of that? It's not your money or investment - who cares. Terre Haute literally has nothing to lose. The casino is not going to bankrupt Indiana State, SMWC, Rose Hulman and Ivy Tech - 4 of our largest most prominent employers. Beyond that, Gibson has been involved in many business ventures across the United States and is a highly successful business man - he understands economics as well as anyone wasting time posting on a message board - I can assure you.



Twitch, I posted a link to the IU data site that shows you what happens economically. My conclusion is that casinos have a net negative effect on their communities. I feel even stronger about that stance now seeing where/how the taxes are split. Not enough of the pie goes back into the local community IMO. 

Let me ask you this. Look at the areas that end up getting them. Do you see any common denominators among them? Why do you Indy keeps rejecting all of the casino proposals? They could make a killing on one downtown but have refused yearly pretty much since I've moved up here. They pretty much put them in rural or poor areas by and large. Think about who you see playing the lottery the most. It's a poor people tax. 

As for your closing paragraph, just one counter point. It is possible incomes will go down, crime will increase, etc. That has happened in several of the cities that have them now. It is possible those factors could hurt enrollment. What happens when enrollment drops? A whole different subject, but I think colleges will face drastic enrollment issues as a whole when the next recession hits and with the fact that trade schools are becoming popular again. Just something to think about -- but I do agree with you that if an entrepreneur wants to try to do something and they are funding it (and not getting insane tax breaks to do so -- that killed a lot of Burkes so called great pulls during his time) then I'm all for it.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Jason Svoboda said:


> Twitch, I posted a link to the IU data site that shows you what happens economically. My conclusion is that casinos have a net negative effect on their communities. I feel even stronger about that stance now seeing where/how the taxes are split. Not enough of the pie goes back into the local community IMO.
> 
> Let me ask you this. Look at the areas that end up getting them. Do you see any common denominators among them? Why do you Indy keeps rejecting all of the casino proposals? They could make a killing on one downtown but have refused yearly pretty much since I've moved up here. They pretty much put them in rural or poor areas by and large. Think about who you see playing the lottery the most. It's a poor people tax.
> 
> As for your closing paragraph, just one counter point. It is possible incomes will go down, crime will increase, etc. That has happened in several of the cities that have them now. It is possible those factors could hurt enrollment. What happens when enrollment drops? A whole different subject, but I think colleges will face drastic enrollment issues as a whole when the next recession hits and with the fact that trade schools are becoming popular again. Just something to think about -- but I do agree with you that if an entrepreneur wants to try to do something and they are funding it (and not getting insane tax breaks to do so -- that killed a lot of Burkes so called great pulls during his time) then I'm all for it.



I follow your logic throughout. Let me
Add a couple things in response. I think the question(s) you posed were more rhetorical in nature so I’m not even going to attempt to discern why Indy hasn’t gone down the road of having a casino. 

I will only say that Indy doesn’t need a casino to thrive - its unnecessary. Furthermore I don’t think a casino is going to make any community thrive - besides Vegas that place seems to do fairly well. I’m not sure Terre Haute is going to get many opportunities or chances like this one to attract visitors to our community. As Mike or someone above eluded too - this is the crossroads of america and a lot of traffic passes through here. If you give them a reason to stop and gamble and they do nothing else in this town besides gamble - how is that a bad thing? They were just going to keep on keeping on without the casino in the first place...

It’s possible crime will go up - we have a very generously funded police & Fire departments. I’m just not buying the crime argument when you’ve got a national meth epidemic going on. Them people on that meth aren’t going to stop doing meth to come gamble. Crime is a constant and if the Police and Fire got to work a little harder to earn that generous compensation plan then so be it. 

As for income - as I already said I’m not an expert on tax law and I was a pretty poor economics student in college. So I’m not going to be able to refute anything when it comed to income/tax/economics effects either positive or negative if a casino comes here. 

I’ve got buddies who like to go to the Evansville ISU game every year because they want to gamble after the game. It gives them a reason to go to an away game that they wouldn’t otherwise have gone to. I’ve got to think some our regional driving distance schools fan bases might be more likely to come to a game at the HC if they have another entertainment option like a casino available. 

One of the biggest complaints ISU gets everytime we host the NCAA XC Nationals has nothing to do with the course, parking,
how the meet is ran etc. It’s two things - lack of hotel rooms as some teams have to stay in Indy. I believe this situation is a couple years away from being resolved. And the second thing is “Terre Haute is boring” for fans traveling across the country to watch a Cross Country meet - they’re looking for additional entertainment options and again the casino provides that. 

I rest my case - if it happens great I will be in support of it. If it doesn’t then so be it. I will think it’s because of some biases against us in an attempt to continue to suppress our ability to grow as a community.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

This casino could be a great catalyst for further economic development in the TH area. IF the community leaders look at it as one piece of a larger plan to diversify the area’s base, and not the be all, end all plan itself. 

I agree with Twitch, it will simply give folks another reason to come to Terre Haute. Just don’t stop with a casino. Also, go after some manufacturing, some regional HQ’s, maybe create a startup incubator. Each one just a piece of a larger puzzle. Diversify the economy.


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## Southgrad07

IndyTreeFan said:


> This casino could be a great catalyst for further economic development in the TH area. IF the community leaders look at it as one piece of a larger plan to diversify the area’s base, and not the be all, end all plan itself.
> 
> I agree with Twitch, it will simply give folks another reason to come to Terre Haute. Just don’t stop with a casino. Also, go after some manufacturing, some regional HQ’s, maybe create a startup incubator. Each one just a piece of a larger puzzle. Diversify the economy.



That is the key with me..if it is hey we are getting a casino! Now let's watch the money roll into the haute!!
.then I am pretty meh on the idea if not a little against it. If they put it in a location that will revitalize part of the town or is part of a bigger development scheme then I'm all for it.


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## ISU02

One thing I'd like to correct is the misnomer that there's "nothing to do in T.H."  That's not true at all.  T.H. offers many things that larger cities offer.  The activities might not be the same caliber, nor the same quantity of variation, but T.H. has more going on then people are willing to admit.  I call it the "ocean effect." People who live near the ocean hardly ever visit because the ocean has become mundane, even though what they have is special.  T.H. offers year round sports, plays, art shows, conventions, concerts, parks, and 100's of activities.  No person will lead you by hand to everything it is up to the individual to seek them out.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

ISU02 said:


> One thing I'd like to correct is the misnomer that there's "nothing to do in T.H."  That's not true at all.  T.H. offers many things that larger cities offer.  The activities might not be the same caliber, nor the same quantity of variation, but T.H. has more going on then people are willing to admit.  I call it the "ocean effect." People who live near the ocean hardly ever visit because the ocean has become mundane, even though what they have is special.  T.H. offers year round sports, plays, art shows, conventions, concerts, parks, and 100's of activities.  No person will lead you by hand to everything it is up to the individual to seek them out.



The one thing I’d like to correct is that my comment was actually “Terre Haute is boring” so if you’re going to quote it atleast quote it correctly. Furthermore these were comments of visitors - not my sentiments or comments that I even agree with. 

But thanks for the “ocean effect” lesson...


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## 4Q_iu

[h=2]Your Indiana Legislature...

Gambling 
Bill: Senate Bill 552
Hearing: House Ways and Means Committee on Tuesday
Background: This would allow the two Gary casinos to relocate—albeit  with some conditions attached—and would legalize gambling on professional and college sporting events.
What to watch for: Whether the $100 million fee to move  one of the Gary casinos elsewhere in the city is reduced—or even  increased. The committee also will need to address the tax rate for  sports betting, and lawmakers could reinsert language  to allow mobile sports betting.[/h]


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## SycamoreStateofMind

https://www.indystar.com/story/news...sino-bill-because-gaming-investor/3480298002/

This thing is not going to come and go quietly... 

*I will give you the cliff-notes version but I highly recommend you read - quite interesting: *

Basically - Gibson/CIB (Convention Center) reached out to Indiana Speaker of the House Brian Bosma (Also an attorney) to seek legal council for the CIB. Bosma reached out to House Ethics committee and was hired by CIB on June 20. (uhhh obviously this was a very intentional hire)

Bosma skipped the House vote regarding the casino (separate project) last week - basically for conflict of interest reasons. 

The insinuation (if you read between the lines) is that Gibson has been "buying" influence within the House by hiring Bosma for CIB legal affairs. Bosma obviously has pull and he obviously talks to other politicians who were going to vote. (Politics is hazy - shocker right?)

Bosma's (& I'm sure Gibson) take is "no no" - these are two separate projects and other than Gibson's initial involvement on the CIB the two projects are completely unrelated to one another. Gibson is no longer on the CIB Board and thus has little influence on that on-going effort. 

*My personal take (not what I know but what I think I know): *

One of two things is driving this - mostly likely is big money (French Lick, Evansville, Indianapolis bias) is in the ear of the Indianapolis Star and feeding them a lot of information and trying to get this casino project stopped. Someone is doing a lot of homework and going to great lengths to halt this entire project. The second possibility that I'm not so quick to dismiss the idea that someone local isn't involved in trying to get this effort stopped. Someone local would certainly be more up-to-speed than anyone else in the state on the CIB/Convention Center and Gibson's involvement in both projects. Then again, most of this information is public record and wouldn't have been too difficult for someone with a little time to connect the dots on. It seems to be more of an attack on Bosma's past dealings than anything else?? 

In addition - the article pretty much tells me what I already know. Gibson stands to make a lot of money on the casino project and potentially the convention center / hotel. Whatever... It takes money to make money - you want to play in the big leagues with these guys then go be an entrepreneur, take some risk and see if you two can hit it big. It's quite obvious all of this has a lot of moving parts and that Gibson has made some very strategic chess moves in the last couple of years. Had they dug a little deeper they would see that Gibson also invested in RJL Solutions which has many functions one of which is advocating for organizations political needs at the State and National level. Not surprisingly RJL has been involved in the casino project https://www.terrehautechamber.com/c...ce-terre-haute-is-all-in-initiative-web-site/

I don't really find any of this new information all that concerning - but I do find it very interesting. I could be wrong - but I've followed all of this with Indiana State, Hulman Center, State Funding, Convention Center, Casino, CIB, Jail (Anything else) pretty closely. Thoughts?!


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Oh and F everyone trying to hold Terre Haute back and keep us right where we are today... Don’t give Terre Haute a chance. 

Terre Haute tried to go about this a different way 3 years ago and it never made it out of a single flipping committee. Sooo


----------



## IndyTreeFan

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> https://www.indystar.com/story/news...sino-bill-because-gaming-investor/3480298002/
> 
> This thing is not going to come and go quietly...
> 
> *I will give you the cliff-notes version but I highly recommend you read - quite interesting: *
> 
> Basically - Gibson/CIB (Convention Center) reached out to Indiana Speaker of the House Brian Bosma (Also an attorney) to seek legal council for the CIB. Bosma reached out to House Ethics committee and was hired by CIB on June 20. (uhhh obviously this was a very intentional hire)
> 
> Bosma skipped the House vote regarding the casino (separate project) last week - basically for conflict of interest reasons.
> 
> The insinuation (if you read between the lines) is that Gibson has been "buying" influence within the House by hiring Bosma for CIB legal affairs. Bosma obviously has pull and he obviously talks to other politicians who were going to vote. (Politics is hazy - shocker right?)
> 
> Bosma's (& I'm sure Gibson) take is "no no" - these are two separate projects and other than Gibson's initial involvement on the CIB the two projects are completely unrelated to one another. Gibson is no longer on the CIB Board and thus has little influence on that on-going effort.
> 
> *My personal take (not what I know but what I think I know): *
> 
> One of two things is driving this - mostly likely is big money (French Lick, Evansville, Indianapolis bias) is in the ear of the Indianapolis Star and feeding them a lot of information and trying to get this casino project stopped. Someone is doing a lot of homework and going to great lengths to halt this entire project. The second possibility that I'm not so quick to dismiss the idea that someone local isn't involved in trying to get this effort stopped. Someone local would certainly be more up-to-speed than anyone else in the state on the CIB/Convention Center and Gibson's involvement in both projects. Then again, most of this information is public record and wouldn't have been too difficult for someone with a little time to connect the dots on. It seems to be more of an attack on Bosma's past dealings than anything else??
> 
> In addition - the article pretty much tells me what I already know. Gibson stands to make a lot of money on the casino project and potentially the convention center / hotel. Whatever... It takes money to make money - you want to play in the big leagues with these guys then go be an entrepreneur, take some risk and see if you two can hit it big. It's quite obvious all of this has a lot of moving parts and that Gibson has made some very strategic chess moves in the last couple of years. Had they dug a little deeper they would see that Gibson also invested in RJL Solutions which has many functions one of which is advocating for organizations political needs at the State and National level. Not surprisingly RJL has been involved in the casino project https://www.terrehautechamber.com/c...ce-terre-haute-is-all-in-initiative-web-site/
> 
> I don't really find any of this new information all that concerning - but I do find it very interesting. I could be wrong - but I've followed all of this with Indiana State, Hulman Center, State Funding, Convention Center, Casino, CIB, Jail (Anything else) pretty closely. Thoughts?!



You don't mess with La Cosa Nostra!  The mob is fine with where the casino money is right now!!!  No need to move anything.  Besides, Gary is so much closer to Chicago!


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## SycamoreStateofMind

59-36 Casino bill has passed. 

Bill is now awaiting a signature from the Governor. Then will be in the hands of Vigo Co. voters in 2020.

A big win for Terre Haute & Vigo Co. tonight. Purchase price of the licensing was lowered to $5 million from what was once $100 million. 

Will generate many jobs for a community that has had a difficult time attracting new business and creating employment opportunities. 

$100 minimum investment in casino set - meaning its going to be a pretty significant infrastructure investment. Local contractors stand to benefit from this investment. For comparison sake Union Hospital building a $180 million hospital was a transformative contract for several local construction players. 

Economic development dollars built into the bill for future commitment from casino benefactors. 

Side thought - some have been against Gibson, his business practices and him making plays to benefit himself. Meh. The Gibson family has invested in Terre Haute & Indiana State for years - if this is wildly successful for his family why wouldn’t Terre Haute continue to benefit from his success? Think long and hard about that. If this bill/process proves anything - it speaks to how powerful and what Gibson is thought of in Indianapolis and across the state of Indiana. He’s a powerful player in the state - not just TH/Vigo Co.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

I just hope they put it near downtown, to continue the revitalization of the city core. But wherever, this will be big for TH - as long as govt “leaders” understand that it is simply a PART of an economic development plan, not the end of a plan. They’ve gotta keep developing.


----------



## meistro

IndyTreeFan said:


> I just hope they put it near downtown, to continue the revitalization of the city core. But wherever, this will be big for TH - as long as govt “leaders” understand that it is simply a PART of an economic development plan, not the end of a plan. They’ve gotta keep developing.



If Gibson builds it, it will be on the east side on 46


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## Buckhorn

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> A big win for Terre Haute & Vigo Co. tonight. Purchase price of the licensing was lowered to $5 million from what was once $100 million...If this bill/process proves anything - it speaks to how powerful and what Gibson is thought of in Indianapolis and across the state of Indiana. He’s a powerful player in the state - not just TH/Vigo Co.



There are many "power brokers" & lobbyists across the State of Indiana, which is why GAMBLING is now a "legislative process." And it's not just these people who "bend an ear" of IN legislators, who answer to ALL VOTERS.

Thankfully, my local representative from Jasper (Mark Messmer) was the one driving this vehicle home. Given his proximity to TH, French Lick & Evansville, he knew 1st hand the issues which would be raised locally. He also never buckled from the Chicago area casino clout. 

Here's a couple E-mails which I forwarded to Messmer, and I'm sure here were hundreds of others who likewise responded in a timely manner to move this thing to fruition.

1 - To:Senator.Messmer

Dear Mark:

I've been following this "political action" via the TH Trib-Star for some time now.

https://www.tribstar.com/news/busin...cle_543ca4a8-5708-11e9-a344-b7b969f78001.html

Initially, E-ville was seeking $20m for a "punitive levy," now the thugs in the Chicago area are seeking to extort $100-150m from Terre Haute? This is absurd. Perhaps WC Indiana needs to attach a "Reparations Clause" of $200m for the damages that resulted from Chicago crime mobsters during "Prohibition," where Terre Haute became a popular "playground" between 1917-33, creating the "Sin City" psychological image which has burdened TH to this day!

2 - To:Senator.Messmer

Dear Mark:

The bidding process is extremely convoluted. Why wouldn't LOCAL OWNERSHIP of the TH Casino be preferred to an out-of state owner? In Terre Haute's case, Greg Gibson has an outstanding business reputation and has worked hard to get a casino to TH. Can ANYONE say the same for the likely "other" bidders? Sorry, but this doesn't make "cents" (sense)...which is the underlying PURPOSE of this casino to the TH people.

The IN Legislature should REWARD in-state business character by paving an inside path to success, similar to a point system used by federal employment.

I'm amazed at the "pork barrel" attitudes surrounding this issue...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, don't forget that Gibson created a f/t lobbyist for this role (Rachel Leslie), after the CIB efforts to coordinate ISU/TH/Vigo failed miserably.


----------



## 4Q_iu

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> 59-36 Casino bill has passed.
> 
> Bill is now awaiting a signature from the Governor. Then will be in the hands of Vigo Co. voters in 2020.



Will it pass in Vigo Co.?



SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Will generate many jobs for a community that has had a difficult time attracting new business and creating employment opportunities.



Debatable...   initial construction/renovation, sure...   long-term, full-time?   Jury is out; the casino industry LOVE 'slots', they're not as big a fan when it comes to 'table games'

Why?  

Slots don't need a "living wage"
Slots can't / won't unionize/bargain collectively
Slots don't need time off when their kid is sick, when their elderly parent wanders awway
Slots don't complain about too few, too many hours




SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Side thought - some have been against Gibson, his business practices and him making plays to benefit himself. Meh. The Gibson family has invested in Terre Haute & Indiana State for years - if this is wildly successful for his family why wouldn’t Terre Haute continue to benefit from his success? Think long and hard about that. If this bill/process proves anything - it speaks to how powerful and what Gibson is thought of in Indianapolis and across the state of Indiana. He’s a powerful player in the state - not just TH/Vigo Co.



long-term the State of Indiana will not realize a legit bump in casino dollars; what they will experience is a shifting of casino revenues origination location...

maybe more $$ from Terre Haute, fewer from the other areas...   Indiana could/would experience a 'casino arms race' much like Vegas has

I'm betting a casino in The Haute will do for it what ALL the casinos in Atlantic City did for it


----------



## niklz62

4Q_iu said:


> Will it pass in Vigo Co.?
> 
> 
> 
> Debatable...   initial construction/renovation, sure...   long-term, full-time?   Jury is out; the casino industry LOVE 'slots', they're not as big a fan when it comes to 'table games'
> 
> Why?
> 
> Slots don't need a "living wage"
> Slots can't / won't unionize/bargain collectively
> Slots don't need time off when their kid is sick, when their elderly parent wanders awway
> Slots don't complain about too few, too many hours
> 
> 
> 
> 
> long-term the State of Indiana will not realize a legit bump in casino dollars; what they will experience is a shifting of casino revenues origination location...
> 
> maybe more $$ from Terre Haute, fewer from the other areas...   Indiana could/would experience a 'casino arms race' much like Vegas has
> 
> I'm betting a casino in The Haute will do for it what ALL the casinos in Atlantic City did for it



Slots also dont run themselves.


----------



## 4Q_iu

niklz62 said:


> Slots also dont run themselves.



True but the current slots are not mechanical, they're digital...  requiring far, FAR less maintenance than their predecessors...

sad that so many locales have bought into the farce of casinos as an economic engine


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

4Q_iu said:


> Will it pass in Vigo Co.?



Every non-scientific social media poll that I've seen shows overwhelming support 70% in support in most polls. Around here - that data is usually pretty reliable. Even if that number were to drop to 55-60% the grassroots effort to get this thing through will be too much for any opposition to overcome. The business community at-large has been behind this effort from day one. 



4Q_iu said:


> Debatable...   initial construction/renovation, sure...   long-term, full-time?   Jury is out; the casino industry LOVE 'slots', they're not as big a fan when it comes to 'table games'
> 
> Why?
> 
> Slots don't need a "living wage"
> Slots can't / won't unionize/bargain collectively
> Slots don't need time off when their kid is sick, when their elderly parent wanders away
> Slots don't complain about too few, too many hours
> 
> 
> long-term the State of Indiana will not realize a legit bump in casino dollars; what they will experience is a shifting of casino revenues origination location...
> 
> maybe more $$ from Terre Haute, fewer from the other areas...   Indiana could/would experience a 'casino arms race' much like Vegas has
> 
> I'm betting a casino in The Haute will do for it what ALL the casinos in Atlantic City did for it



I guess you can debate every facet of this deal with someone that will oblige. Personally, I'm just hopeful that Terre Haute can ride this momentum and maybe other opportunities will continue to come our way. I've lived in this community my entire life and am proud to say so - but this community has had a hell of a time retaining talent and attracting new business. I'm not so sure this helps that effort - but it certainly doesn't hurt it - because I don't think it can get much worse. In my lifetime I've seen many of businesses close and leave Terre Haute. 

*But I'm optimistic - consider in the next 10 years we could have (some of these projects currently underway or nearing completion): *

- Renovated Hulman Center  

- New Convention Center 

- New Hotel / Casino / Bar / Restaurant 

- New downtown TH Hotel 

- New downtown parking garage 

- New / Renovated High Schools (West, South, North) 

- New Jail 

- New outdoor riverfront amphitheater. https://www.tribstar.com/opinion/ed...cle_6cd757ea-6141-11e9-9437-e3aef251ea52.html

- New Terre Haute Historical Museum 

- New expansive Vigo County Park located in Southern Vigo Co. https://www.tribstar.com/news/local...cle_777f726e-9972-5b67-8bc9-a47986b6c768.html

*Other opportunities exist such as: *

- Potential for new federal pen facility. 

- New football stadium 

So I'm not suggesting that this casino is the reason for my optimism - I don't think gambling fixes us by any means. I think it's another pieces to our puzzle and one that people should either get behind or figure out something else to be pissed off about.


----------



## Buckhorn

While driving for Landstar Express America, I picked up slots in 'Vegas (Bally-Konami-IGT Gaming, etc.) and delivered to various casinos throughout America and Canada. It is a very heavily regulated industry. For instance, on one occasion I had a load destined for outside Toronto, Canada. Just before closing & locking the doors of my truck, the Casino employees forgot they had to remove the top attachments to each game, per Canada requirement.  They had to unload & take the tops off. I also was once was loaded & ready to depart 'Vegas, when an employee came running outside & waving his arms. They'd just received notice that the games they'd loaded were giving out too much $$$, so they had to be re-programmed and load new slots. :laugh:

I've seen lucrative casinos and those on the verge of collapse. The worst I saw was 20 mi E of Norman, OK on an Indian Reservation. Reminded me of one of Ellis' TH strip malls! The key is reasonable access to a population that enjoys gaming, food & entertainment...and can afford it.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

As expected - Gibson went on the record to say he'd like the casino to go out east. Personally, I'd have liked to see it on or near the river. Think that a casino could have really been the shot in the arm that we needed to get the riverfront going - it's worked in other communities and would have been more centrally located to all of the improvements we continue to see downtown. 

That all said - east makes sense as that area continues to grow, easy access to US 40, I-70, 641 Bypass and the Terre Haute Regional Airport. All that considered I understand why it would go east. 

Sounds as if this will probably be on the ballot this November and it wouldn't shock me at all to see dirt moving 12 months from today... Local economy should see a nice little bump with convention center, hotel, parking garage and casino all going up in the same 24-36 month period of time. After that - should see some nice job growth! Maybe not the jobs many people would like to see us have - but you've got to start somewhere! 

A couple other interesting things to consider for those following along: 

- The need for a new fire station out east. Currently I think the closest fire station to the east side is probably Terre Haute FD located at 25th and Hulman St. that is a small station and quite distance away from where the casino will end up. I'd imagine they will be making a run or two a day on average to that side of town once that thing opens up for various reasons. In other words - could see some potential jobs and once again a nice construction project if that happens. They will have to do something - I don't think anything is certain yet. 

- Hulman Links Golf Course. Rea and Hulman have been a loss leader on the city books for quite some time. The casino project was approved for around $100 million investment with some of those dollars (I forget the %) being marked for "economic development". I'd love to see the casino either take that course over completely and get it off the city books - that would constitute as a major win for both the city and the course/casino if that were to happen. If they don't take it over completely I'd hope they would come to some sort of an arrangement with the city to help pump some money into while driving casino traffic to the course as well - the two compliment each-other well and would make for a great partnership. I've heard grumblings of this - if nothing else I'd like to be at the forefront of discussing the possibility if they're not having these talks already. 

- At some point all of this might have some effect on city / county annexation. Right now I believe the proposed location for the would be casino would fall outside the city boundary. So all of this growth going on out east and continued growth further south all falls on the county books and not the city books. I believe the city boundary on the south side currently ends at Springhill Dr. It doesn't positively impact me (as I live in the county) but I think the city should probably extend down to Dallas or Harlan on the south side and should extend beyond Chamberlin Rd. to the east - that would be a major shake up and the farmers are not going to like that at all - but I would be in favor of it for the sake of the city. 

EDIT: After looking at map it appears that the casino would fall inside the city limits as the airport is inside the city limits. It doesn't expand south of i-70 though. So maybe just look at annexation of 46/ I-70 to 46/159 down south to Harlan or Dallas. 

Just some fun stuff to think about moving forward.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

I agree that, personally, I would rather see the casino go downtown on the Riverfront, but I get the business reasons that Gibson wants it out east.  It's not hard to see that ease of access to I-70 is going to bring people in.  Put it downtown, and it isn't as easy to get to and that might keep people away.

Your other points are interesting, SSOM.  Hadn't thought about those.  Casino/golf course is an interesting thought.  Almost like having a _Resort Casino_.  That could be an interesting pairing.  Good thought!!!


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

IndyTreeFan said:


> I agree that, personally, I would rather see the casino go downtown on the Riverfront, but I get the business reasons that Gibson wants it out east.  It's not hard to see that ease of access to I-70 is going to bring people in.  Put it downtown, and it isn't as easy to get to and that might keep people away.
> 
> Your other points are interesting, SSOM.  Hadn't thought about those.  Casino/golf course is an interesting thought.  Almost like having a _Resort Casino_.  That could be an interesting pairing.  Good thought!!!



Yeah - east Terre Haute is certainly easier for people from Bloomington, Greencastle, Plainfield, Indianapolis to access. I'm not so sure that it's not easier for people coming over from IL - not having to go through town at all. I think from that standpoint that it probably makes the most sense. 

The golf course would literally be 5 minutes from the casino - transportation between the two could be done easily. Either I dream't it or someone mentioned it to me... Ha Because it makes too much sense for it not to be considered.


----------



## niklz62

It's not much more drive to get to the Rt46 area imo unless I70 is stopped.  if you are going to the stadium its almost a push if you take 46 or go through West T

Im a fan of your golf idea.  That is a great course that needs more support/play


----------



## Buckhorn

From "Horseshoe" to "Caesar's Southern Indiana"...$85m infusion near Louisville.

https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...nges-name-and-site-sports-betting/3668211002/


----------



## meistro

After today's announcement of Clabber Girl being sold, people need to think twice about criticizing Greg Gibson. He's one of the few people in this town with money, willing to spend it to better the community. If he makes money along the way, more power to him. I appreciate all the Hulman family has done for Terre Haute, but they've dropped this town like a hot rock. It's their money and their business, but I hate to see them sell out.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

meistro said:


> After today's announcement of Clabber Girl being sold, people need to think twice about criticizing Greg Gibson. He's one of the few people in this town with money, willing to spend it to better the community. If he makes money along the way, more power to him. I appreciate all the Hulman family has done for Terre Haute, but they've dropped this town like a hot rock. It's their money and their business, but I hate to see them sell out.



Putting everyone with an agenda for no good reason on notice. 

Every single real estate, business asset and human capital asset that Hulman & Co. owned even the personal care taker and friend (my aunt) of the late Mary Hulman George - good riddance! 

People worried about Gibson and his convention center and Gibson and his casino. He coulda just stayed in the trash business and out of all this drama - trying to make TH a better place to live all while making a buck or three for himself in the process. Good for him - thanks for trying!


----------



## Buckhorn

I rarely get to TH anymore, excluding Roselawn to place flowers on my family grave site. Didn't Gibson purchase the Forest Park multiple land tracts bordering Markle Mill Dam in NTH? Any idea what his plans are? If he's planning on developing an upscale housing project, I sure wish he'd sprinkle a little influence around NTH, which has become the "ghetto" of Vigo Co. The Otter Creek basin still periodically floods, which is why a new $1.5m firehouse was built 1/2 mile north of the old one (formerly located across the street from the dilapidated HS built in 1917 & still standing). Until Otter Creek develops a FLOOD CONTROL/CONSERVATION DISTRICT (which was closely defeated in '72 by mostly Clay County landowners), you won't see much activity as far as re-investments in that area, thanks to the ever-present threat of O.C. floodwaters.

https://beacon.schneidercorp.com/Ap...&PageID=611&KeyValue=84-03-31-300-007.000-012


----------



## 4Q_iu

Down the Stretch They Come and it's Danville!

https://www.tribstar.com/news/local...cle_c5fd0fa1-23b7-549a-97a6-a7574cf28a54.html


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

4Q_iu said:


> Down the Stretch They Come and it's Danville!
> 
> https://www.tribstar.com/news/local...cle_c5fd0fa1-23b7-549a-97a6-a7574cf28a54.html



Naaa it's a big dick contest... Not really that big of a deal. Danville trying to keep up with IL they can make this about Terre Haute if they want to - but Terre Haute can still get people from Marshall, Paris, Robinson, Casey - 70 is a straight shot. They might lose some folks from Attica, Covington, Lafayette area that we might have pulled in - but it's really a lot of hype about nothing. Being first one to build a casino in Vegas didn't stop other casinos from being built. Not suggesting this is Vegas or that I wish it was - just saying that it doesn't matter who is open first or second in my opinion.


----------



## 4Q_iu

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Naaa it's a big dick contest... Not really that big of a deal. Danville trying to keep up with IL they can make this about Terre Haute if they want to - but Terre Haute can still get people from Marshall, Paris, Robinson, Casey - 70 is a straight shot. They might loose some folks from Attica, Covington, Lafayette area that we might have pulled in - but it's really a lot of hype about nothing. Being first one to build a casino in Vegas didn't stop other casinos from being built. Not suggesting this is Vegas or that I wish it was - just saying that it doesn't matter who is open first or second in my opinion.




who knows -- neither community will be anyone's first choice when it comes to a Casino, nor has a population base with the disposable income to make a difference; $$ coming into either casino will simply be taken from other entertainment options.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

4Q_iu said:


> who knows -- neither community will be anyone's first choice when it comes to a Casino, nor has a population base with the disposable income to make a difference; $$ coming into either casino will simply be taken from other entertainment options.



Probably a lot of truth to that.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

https://www.tribstar.com/news/local...cle_8fe36377-ba9e-5352-bfa6-3be07a690fa5.html

Hard Rock Casino will be the bard if it passes and Spectacle gets the bid... Should be a pretty nice place.

Hard Rock Restaurant and bar - perhaps a hotel. Could be legit.


----------



## southernindianaballer

Hard Rock is known to invest or partner with locals to build multi-use arenas and stadiums attached to the casino.   I wonder if plans could be bigger than we are guessing?  An hour from Indy and Bloomington...



SycamoreStateofMind said:


> https://www.tribstar.com/news/local...cle_8fe36377-ba9e-5352-bfa6-3be07a690fa5.html
> 
> Hard Rock Casino will be the bard if it passes and Spectacle gets the bid... Should be a pretty nice place.
> 
> Hard Rock Restaurant and bar - perhaps a hotel. Could be legit.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

southernindianaballer said:


> Hard Rock is known to invest or partner with locals to build multi-use arenas and stadiums attached to the casino.   I wonder if plans could be bigger than we are guessing?  An hour from Indy and Bloomington...



Stretch. Don’t think that is the case but would be really cool.


----------



## 4Q_iu

A Hard Rock in Terredise?  Highly Doubtful, as in never gonna happen
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Rock_Cafe#Casinos_and_hotels

   From today's IBS
[h=3][/h]   [h=3]Indiana casino revenues continue to tumble[/h]  While overall state funds continue to swell, one revenue source in  particular is leaking badly: riverboat casinos. Revenue from the state’s  10 casinos sank by nearly 27 percent in August, compared to the same  month last year, state officials report. Continuing  a trend dating back to 2009, the shortfalls have been attributed to  increased casino competition from neighboring states and overall  economic anxiety. The state’s two racinos boasted a different dynamic,  with a slight revenue increase from last year.  AP has more, while noting that all bets are now off on casino revenue, given the introduction of sports wagering on Sept. 1.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

4Q_iu said:


> A Hard Rock in Terredise?  Highly Doubtful, as in never gonna happen
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Rock_Cafe#Casinos_and_hotels
> 
> From today's IBS
> [h=3][/h]   [h=3]Indiana casino revenues continue to tumble[/h]  While overall state funds continue to swell, one revenue source in  particular is leaking badly: riverboat casinos. Revenue from the state’s  10 casinos sank by nearly 27 percent in August, compared to the same  month last year, state officials report. Continuing  a trend dating back to 2009, the shortfalls have been attributed to  increased casino competition from neighboring states and overall  economic anxiety. The state’s two racinos boasted a different dynamic,  with a slight revenue increase from last year.  AP has more, while noting that all bets are now off on casino revenue, given the introduction of sports wagering on Sept. 1.



Maybe not a HardRock - but I wouldn't go so far as to say never going to happen and maybe revenue is down - not even going to bother to dispute it because it doesn't matter. What does matter is one is coming to Terre Haute - so hopefully in can be just one additional step toward creating some jobs and making Terre Haute more of a destination for people.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

The Hard Rock brand is essentially dead. The HR Casino here in Vegas is closing soon and being rebranded as Virgin. 

It's unfortunate because it was the coolest casino to visit with all of the music themed stuff. Also has a Mexican restaurant called the Pink Taco -- that actually has awesome food. But I digress. The brand itself has gone the way of Planet Hollywood due to how accessible pop culture is these days.


----------



## 4Q_iu

https://www.tribstar.com/news/state...cle_4816d0d6-3ecf-11ea-90ac-4f39e4bf1c39.html


Casino slowing...  Potential ties to company under scrutiny for "improper" (illegal?) political contributions

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]https://www.tribstar.com/news/state-puts-vigo-casino-license-process-on-hold/article_4816d0d6-3ecf-11ea-90ac-4f39e4bf1c39.html[/FONT]


----------



## meistro

Terre Haute, if it weren’t for bad luck, we’d have no luck at all.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Pocket City Press add their 3-cents

https://www.courierpress.com/story/...unds-candidate-part-federal-probe/4563449002/


----------



## 4Q_iu

Indiana investigation could imperil Terre Haute casino project

https://www.tribstar.com/news/india...cle_fb2fa964-341c-53e5-8170-012dbe220b2a.html


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Meh.

That story doesn't implicate Gibson at all... 2 dozers are sitting on the property already and GC's have made final decisions on what is a very aggressive completion timeline.

Good luck pushing that narrative - the TribStar doesn't have a clue they are just reporting whatever at this point. If it took a story over a week to make this site then it probably isn't that big of a deal.

The people who were always a bit dirty still are dirty - that is what this is about.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Time will see...    Obviously, there were enough shady dealings for the Indiana Gaming Commission to launch an investigation; NOT aimed at Gibson but at how the latest casino projects were ok'd.   Should Gibson worry?  Not if he's innocent, and likely not as all as he's not part of the investigation - however, he's a business guy and often times projects like this come to a screeching halt for reasons beyond his control.   Often times, investigations take on a life of their own...

Quick - tell me how oral sex from Monica Lewinsky was related to a real estate transaction in Arkansas?

See -- THAT's how investigations can run off the rails


as to the timeline of Trib-Star to SycamorePride posting... meh
if ScyamorePride was a net portal vice a sports-focused "blog-o-sphere" --- i'd lose a minutes of sleep over the "reporting delay"

agree, ain't no clean folks running casinos; they're a step above real estate developers


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Whatever... I've seen enough waste of time waste of money investigations this year to know enough to be dangerous about how an investigation works. 

Quick - I know nothing nor care nothing of anything to do with Monica Lewinsky. 

See - THAT is how much I don't care at all.


----------



## Sycamorefan96

I don't know about the casino, but I heard the plans for the strip club at Fruitridge and Ft Harrison are back on. Better get those pennies ready!


----------



## meistro

I drive past there every day and as SSOM said, they've moved two huge dozers in. They'll also marked utilities, so I think and hope it's full speed ahead. Watch Ozark and you'll see how dirty a casino developer can be lol. He's an ISU alum too, haha.


----------



## HOOPSFAN

The casino should have been around 50+ years ago when Mayor Ralph Tucker was alive & in his heyday ....... adding legal gambling to thriving multiple whore houses etc. and the knack for keeping Indy politicians and the Feds out of hearing distance ................... lol.


----------



## 4Q_iu

meistro said:


> I drive past there every day and as SSOM said, they've moved two huge dozers in. They'll also marked utilities, so I think and hope it's full speed ahead. Watch Ozark and you'll see how dirty a casino developer can be lol. He's an ISU alum too, haha.



Marty Byrd is a bad, BAD MAN!


----------



## Gotta Hav

Jason Svoboda said:


> The Hard Rock brand is essentially dead.



Well, if it's essentially DEAD, someone needs to tell the HARDROCK folks at the SEMINOLE HARDROCK in Tampa that information; because they spent almost THREE QUARTERS of a BILLION DOLLARS expanding their HARDROCK.  If you're ever in the area....it really is something to see inside and out....especially the area between the two hotels where three swimming pools are located.

I go there regularly, as it's on the way to Lakeland, FL where my Mom (and recently deceased) Dad lived for 34 years....









						We went inside Seminole Hard Rock’s $720 million Tampa expansion
					

A colossal hotel, sprawling pool and spa and brand-new concert venue hold grand openings all weekend.




					www.tampabay.com


----------



## Deehee33

I live in Florida very close to I-4. I live I-4 east on the North East side of Orlando near Daytona Beach. I was hoping Terre Haute would get the Hard Rock Casino !! That would give me reason to go visit the area TH again !!


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Final selection expected later this afternoon at last!!

They’re discussing the 4 proposals right now.


----------



## CardLake49

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Final selection expected later this afternoon at last!!
> 
> They’re discussing the 4 proposals right now.


Never been into gambling and couldn't care less. I'm good with which ever is chosen as long as it has a sportsbook so I can sit and watch 10 games at once.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Please just have a real roulette table with a real person running it.  That's all I need...


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Not a big gambler either - although if I have some spare cash I prefer roulette as well! I'm pretty sure all 4 proposals have a sports book - thus far only one has presented and they have a sports book.


----------



## 4Q_iu

IndyTreeFan said:


> Please just have a real roulette table with a real person running it.  That's all I need...



Isn't it just as effective to burn your cash as it is to put it on a roulette table?


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

4Q_iu said:


> Isn't it just as effective to burn your cash as it is to put it on a roulette table?



If you’re just guessing then probably - but if you have a game plan and stick to certain sectors of the board etc it can be lucrative. Have to know when to walk just like any casino game - it can go quick! But yes - odds are lowest in casino or close to it.


----------



## 4Q_iu

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> If you’re just guessing then probably - but if you have a game plan and stick to certain sectors of the board etc it can be lucrative. Have to know when to walk just like any casino game - it can go quick! But yes - *odds are lowest in casino or close to it.*



Why it's more effective to just burn the cash!


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Well Hard Rock is out…


----------



## SycamoreBlue3209

Don’t like this so far.  Think selecting one of the eastside locations would have been better since there is so much more room to grow/develop. Not to mention Greg would have kept so much much in Vigo County.

Whatever… I don’t gamble, not in the construction field and live way the help up north so won’t affect me much. I do hope it works out for everyone.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

I’d be surprised if it doesn’t still end up east - you can go to beacon pretty quickly and see they don’t have room.

Gibson will make them deal I can almost assure you.


----------



## BankShot

Churchill Downs selected as Terre Haute's casino operator - here's what they have planned
					

INDIANAPOLIS, Ind. (WTHI) - The Indiana Gaming Commission made its selection for a casino operator in Terre Haute on Wednesday.




					www.wthitv.com


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Someone obviously doesn’t want Greg Gibson involved with this project.


----------



## BlueBleeder

Thats about the only thing set in stone with this whole project it seems.  They have fought Greg tooth and nail every step.  They have gone to extremes to be sure not to let him in on this....feels really back doorish if you ask me.


----------



## 4Q_iu

IndyTreeFan said:


> Someone obviously doesn’t want Greg Gibson involved with this project.



  Just thinking the folks at Churchill Downs know just a SMIDGE more about the Gaming Industry than Gibson...    just a hunch though

Spectacle Entertainment has been in gaming since... 2018?  at least that's what THEIR website states...


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Please just have a real roulette table with a real person running it.  That's all I need...



I doubt you'll see that. Even here in Vegas they have started moving to electronic BJ, roulette, craps.


----------



## Sycamorefan96

BankShot said:


> Churchill Downs selected as Terre Haute's casino operator - here's what they have planned
> 
> 
> INDIANAPOLIS, Ind. (WTHI) - The Indiana Gaming Commission made its selection for a casino operator in Terre Haute on Wednesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wthitv.com


I didn't really want a casino here, but this one seems like the best option to me. Might spark some life back into the south side of town, or more specifically the mall. 

The gaming commission said that Lucy Luck was in worst shape now than when they were rejected the first time. Didn't matter to the local corrupt politicians in this town though. To no one's surprise they circled the wagons around Gibson like always, recommending Lucy Luck, but apparently the people at the state level can see through the BS that is Vigo politics.


----------



## BankShot

Sycamorefan96 said:


> I didn't really want a casino here, but this one seems like the best option to me. Might spark some life back into the south side of town, or more specifically the mall.
> 
> The gaming commission said that Lucy Luck was in worst shape now than when they were rejected the first time. Didn't matter to the local corrupt politicians in this town though. To no one's surprise they circled the wagons around Gibson like always, recommending Lucy Luck, but apparently the people at the state level can see through the BS that is Vigo politics.


So true, which is primarily why the HC renovation funding ($37.5m) was delayed during the CIB committee squabbling.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

None of that is really true but keep spinning that bull shit if you want… 

Although I agree the mall area could use an obvious shot in the arm and this could be it - I’m struggling to understand in surveying Beacon which plot of land that would be? Behind the mall is awful low visibility for a casino.

Church also suggested they’d be open to Vigo officials feedback - in other words if you want it out East we could be open to that as well. They also said as much in the presentation because the question came up from the commission.

Bottom line is this - Terre Haute would have never been in the position to get ANY casino without Gibson and a select number of local business and political leaders. They all worked really hard. I also have first hand knowledge of what went into these efforts from a local contracting effort. None of the other 3 proposals were using much in the way of local construction resources. So don’t let ignorant posts on here fool you - Gibson while he had some flaws with some of his original investors was using many local resources from the word go to make this come a reality.

The biggest issue with HardRock other than the legal issues they had - they had not intended to build a hotel out of phase 1. They were going to utilize existing hotels that are already at 70% capacity on any given night. I think this was a big big reason why they lost… Could be wrong - but my guess.

Let’s take this positive and move on… Take the corruption narrative elsewhere it doesn’t belong here in this conversation - being jaded doesn’t give you an excuse to push a BS narrative. You apparently take after CNN and given your politics that’s odd.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Put it downtown on the riverfront!

Yeah, I know that's not going to happen.  It needs to be close to I-70...but a guy can dream...


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

IndyTreeFan said:


> Put it downtown on the riverfront!
> 
> Yeah, I know that's not going to happen.  It needs to be close to I-70...but a guy can dream...



I wouldn't rule that out... Behind the mall is basically the river. Maybe that is where they had in mind. Would be a hell of an addition to the group in our community that has remained very committed to riverfront development. I'd be glad to see it on the river myself - but if not the river probably out east. I just don't see that area around the mall ever being what it once was again. Retail industry has so drastically changed - I don't see malls in small towns ever becoming viable again casino or not... Of course it could develop into something else.


----------



## BankShot

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> None of that is really true but keep spinning that bull shit if you want…
> 
> Although I agree the mall area could use an obvious shot in the arm and this could be it - I’m struggling to understand in surveying Beacon which plot of land that would be? Behind the mall is awful low visibility for a casino.
> 
> Church also suggested they’d be open to Vigo officials feedback - in other words if you want it out East we could be open to that as well. They also said as much in the presentation because the question came up from the commission.
> 
> Bottom line is this - Terre Haute would have never been in the position to get ANY casino without Gibson and a select number of local business and political leaders. They all worked really hard. I also have first hand knowledge of what went into these efforts from a local contracting effort. None of the other 3 proposals were using much in the way of local construction resources. So don’t let ignorant posts on here fool you - Gibson while he had some flaws with some of his original investors was using many local resources from the word go to make this come a reality.
> 
> The biggest issue with HardRock other than the legal issues they had - they had not intended to build a hotel out of phase 1. They were going to utilize existing hotels that are already at 70% capacity on any given night. I think this was a big big reason why they lost… Could be wrong - but my guess.
> 
> Let’s take this positive and move on… Take the corruption narrative elsewhere it doesn’t belong here in this conversation - being jaded doesn’t give you an excuse to push a BS narrative. You apparently take after CNN and given your politics that’s odd.


Grow up SSOM...hard to accept reality sometimes, isn't it? You don't think the IN Govt Committees vested w/ oversight weren't aware of TH "political history. You need to get out of your box long enough to gain perspective that's NOT prejudiced. "Jaded"...LOL


----------



## niklz62

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Let’s take this positive and move on… Take the corruption narrative elsewhere it doesn’t belong here in this conversation - being jaded doesn’t give you an excuse to push a BS narrative. You apparently take after CNN and given your politics that’s odd.



Im starting to think you're in on the corruption!!!


----------



## BankShot

"None of the other 3 proposals were using much in the way of _local construction _resources." - SSOM

Gee, I wonder why?


----------



## BlueBleeder

BankShot said:


> "None of the other 3 proposals were using much in the way of _local construction _resources." - SSOM
> 
> Gee, I wonder why?


We should all push for them to use local labor to build their facility.  Put money in the pockets of locals to help our economy.  We should all want that....don't understand why anyone wouldn't want that.


----------



## BankShot

Your answer lies within Union v. non-Union labor history in American. TH/Vigo Co. has long been aligned w/ pro-Union & Democrat forces. Unfortunate for TH & Vigo Co., the country has changed significantly in this area, with many states passing "Right to Work" laws which prohibit forced union membership. The "Open Border" policy of the current administration won't help this matter, as cheap, unskilled labor will continue to displace the once-protected Union label.  

The recent _"pay to play" contract fraud_ involving one of SSOM's "hero's," ex-Supt. DANNY TANOOS and the Vigo County Schools has also placed a "Warning" stamp on TH business practices state-wide.


----------



## Sycamorefan96

BankShot said:


> Your answer lies within Union v. non-Union labor history in American. TH/Vigo Co. has long been aligned w/ pro-Union & Democrat forces. Unfortunate for TH & Vigo Co., the country has changed significantly in this area, with many states passing "Right to Work" laws which prohibit forced union membership. The "Open Border" policy of the current administration won't help this matter, as cheap, unskilled labor will continue to displace the once-protected Union label.
> 
> The recent _"pay to play" contract fraud_ involving one of SSOM's "hero's," ex-Supt. DANNY TANOOS and the Vigo County Schools has also placed a "Warning" stamp on TH business practices state-wide.


I forgot about Danny Tanoos. What a clown that guy was! Even the corrupt FBI had enough his nonsense.


----------



## BankShot

Sycamorefan96 said:


> I forgot about Danny Tanoos. What a clown that guy was! Even the corrupt FBI had enough his nonsense.


----------



## BankShot

Ya, one of TH's "Junior Achiement" scholars in contract/labor management...from the old TH school of business (i.e. Ralph Tucker).


----------



## Sycamorefan96

Apparently he got out of that one scott free with an "unlawful competitive bidding" misdemeanor plea. Apparently he's a good crook, which shouldn't be a surprise. They don't call it the Syrian Mafia for nothing.









						No jail time, no probation, no fines: Former VCSC Superintendent Danny Tanoos accepts plea deal in bribery case
					

INDIANAPOLIS, Ind (WTHI) - The criminal case against former Vigo County Schoo Corporation Superintendent Danny Tanoos is over.




					www.wthitv.com


----------



## BankShot

Sycamorefan96 said:


> Apparently he got out of that one scott free with an "unlawful competitive bidding" misdemeanor plea. Apparently he's a good crook, which shouldn't be a surprise. They don't call it the Syrian Mafia for nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No jail time, no probation, no fines: Former VCSC Superintendent Danny Tanoos accepts plea deal in bribery case
> 
> 
> INDIANAPOLIS, Ind (WTHI) - The criminal case against former Vigo County Schoo Corporation Superintendent Danny Tanoos is over.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.wthitv.com


The Democrats will likely place him on the ticket for the next IN Supt of Education...he'll fit perfectly! How many yrs. was this in court, 4 or 5? LOL


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## Sycamorefan96

I was just reading an article and found Frank Shahadey's name pop up. I forgot about him too, but I was told back then that he basically took the bullet for Tanoos. I also know someone that said they met him in Putnamville. 

I don't even remember this Franklin Fennel guy, but apparently he was in on it too. Perfect example of your typical mafia boss who has people covering for him. Law enforcement knows that they're a crook, but they can't ever get them for anything.


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## 4Q_iu

Sycamorefan96 said:


> I was just reading an article and found Frank Shahadey's name pop up. I forgot about him too, but I was told back then that he basically took the bullet for Tanoos. I also know someone that said they met him in Putnamville.
> 
> I don't even remember this Franklin Fennel guy, but apparently he was in on it too. Perfect example of your typical mafia boss who has people covering for him. Law enforcement knows that they're a crook, but they can't ever get them for anything.



Was that one of your Teamster buddies doing time at the Putnam Pharm?


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## BankShot

This title says it all...









						UNBELEIVABLE WIN FOR CHURCHILL DOWNS.  Terre Haute Gets New Casino and IT’S Not Who They Wanted
					

After years of trying to pick their pony in the race for a Casino in Terre Haute, the Indiana Gaming Commission used facts, figures, common sense, and integrity to award the Casino license to Churc…




					terrehautenews.net


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## BankShot

4Q_iu said:


> Was that one of your Teamster buddies doing time at the Putnam Pharm?


LOL...so much for understanding the nature of today's trucking industry.


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## Sycamorefan96

BankShot said:


> LOL...so much for understanding the nature of today's trucking industry.


You mean to tell me that this isn't 4Q's trucking company??? 😆 Took this pic at the new Loves south of town by the industrial park.


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## Sycamorefan96

The best idea I've seen so far. Who wants to go gamble and then go to Walmart?


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