# The Future of the Valley and Indiana State Athletics



## Jason Svoboda

I've been told by several folks at Indiana State that Wichita State is gone. With the Shockers bolting to the AAC, that leaves the Valley in a pretty precarious position. 

Golden wrote a new article saying it isn't dire straights for the Valley and I'm not sure I agree with his thoughts. I don't think the Valley holds the cachet it once did and I personally think the divide between public football schools and the privates in the conference is a WIDE chasm to breach.

http://www.tribstar.com/sports/loca...cle_b89d63cc-5e3a-5a62-93a2-090c623eceb8.html

Article from NDSU's beat writer's eyes:

http://www.inforum.com/sports/42408...etween-summit-and-valley#.WNgvAIuDIQe.twitter


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## Chief_Quabachi

IMHO, the loss of Creighton was not good and the loss of Wichita State doesn't bode well for the MVC........period!!


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## Bluethunder

It really all depends on who they add.  

I, for one, am not bothered by WSU leaving at all, I welcome it.  If the Valley adds the right team, moves Arch Madness to a smaller arena like the one in St Charles and then aggressively works to get contracts in place on smaller, national networks (like CBS College Sports, or NBC Sports) with a few games on ESPNU it can still be a strong conference.  

The WCC is a below average conference and it hasnt stopped Gonzaga, and to a lesser extent SMC from developing into solid programs.  Butler became a household name as a Horizon league member.

Having WSU move on creates a league with a lot more teams in the same boat financially, and I think will make for a much more competitive league and competitive league tournament.

I just wish i had any faith in Elgin to be on top of this and to add a good fit in the shockers place.


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## Jason Svoboda

Bluethunder said:


> It really all depends on who they add.
> 
> I, for one, am not bothered by WSU leaving at all, I welcome it.  If the Valley adds the right team, moves Arch Madness to a smaller arena like the one in St Charles and then aggressively works to get contracts in place on smaller, national networks (like CBS College Sports, or NBC Sports) with a few games on ESPNU it can still be a strong conference.
> 
> The WCC is a below average conference and it hasnt stopped Gonzaga, and to a lesser extent SMC from developing into solid programs.  Butler became a household name as a Horizon league member.
> 
> Having WSU move on creates a league with a lot more teams in the same boat financially, and I think will make for a much more competitive league and competitive league tournament.
> 
> I just wish i had any faith in Elgin to be on top of this and to add a good fit in the shockers place.


Well, if the article is correct and Loyola was selected because they were a private school, I hope the public presidents demand a public institution that has football to replace Wichita. I know a lot of you guys have championed the Belmonts, Valpos and Oral Roberts in past discussions, but that would be counter productive to Indiana State and the bulk of the conference.

So that gives me a potential pool of Murray State, North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Eastern Kentucky if you're looking for public schools that field scholarship FCS football and have had basketball success in the last handful of years.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

First off let me making something clear. The sky is not falling and the ship is not sinking. That is Golden taking fans reactions on social media to0 literally. He's a reporter and so if you say something to him he takes it at face value rather than being able to read in-between the lines. 

I've been preaching for years on here that the Valley wasn't the conference it was say 10 years ago and it's been a slow and steady decline. From a competition standpoint, from a respect standpoint, from a financial standpoint etc. etc. A lot of outside factors have contributed to this - but some internal ones also. 

Private or public the addition of Loyola was a mistake. That move has done absolutely nothing for this conference. I don't have faith that Elgin will get it right the second time around.

I could care less if the tourney is ever in STL again with or without the Shox. IMO that venue is much too big for the fans that this conference is able to draw. You pull the Shox out of that mix and we already know they are going to have to move it. I don't have a suggestion as to where it should go - I just hope the trees are competitive enough for me to have to make plans to attend. 

I would HATE it if we lost our ESPN3 deal. I love watching football and basketball away games on that platform. That is the best thing the Valley has ever done.


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## TreeTop

How about dropping Loyola and being an 8-team league.

Won't happen, and it's not that serious of a suggestion....but it's really no worse than adding a South Dakota State.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

TreeTop said:


> How about dropping Loyola and being an 8-team league.
> 
> Won't happen, and it's not that serious of a suggestion....but it's really no worse than adding a South Dakota State.



I would be in favor of kicking Loyola out. lmao


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## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> First off let me making something clear. The sky is not falling and the ship is not sinking. That is Golden taking fans reactions on social media to0 literally. He's a reporter and so if you say something to him he takes it at face value rather than being able to read in-between the lines.
> 
> I've been preaching for years on here that the Valley wasn't the conference it was say 10 years ago and it's been a slow and steady decline. From a competition standpoint, from a respect standpoint, from a financial standpoint etc. etc. A lot of outside factors have contributed to this - but some internal ones also.
> 
> Private or public the addition of Loyola was a mistake. That move has done absolutely nothing for this conference. I don't have faith that Elgin will get it right the second time around.


I agree the sky is not falling but let's be honest, the S.S. MoVal is taking water. 

As you've said, college athletics has been trending this way for over a decade. I'd say it really started with the invention of the BCS as that seemed to be the jump off point for these massive media deals. As I also mentioned before, I also don't think this has to do with losing Creighton and (soon) Wichita State and adding Loyola but when you combine the additions/subtractions with giving the big boys autonomy, the flood gates were kicked even further open to allow them to shape athletics how they see fit.

The reality is there will likely be no differentiation between the Valley, Summit, Horizon and most mid-major conferences in the near future because the power conferences will continue to spend the "have nots" into oblivion because of the media deals. Each Big Ten school got a $45m distribution from their network -- that's nearly 3 years of our total athletics budget. 



SycamoreStateofMind said:


> I could care less if the tourney is ever in STL again with or without the Shox. IMO that venue is much too big for the fans that this conference is able to draw. You pull the Shox out of that mix and we already know they are going to have to move it. I don't have a suggestion as to where it should go - I just hope the trees are competitive enough for me to have to make plans to attend.


Completely agree there, too. If you want to keep it in St. Louis, I think BlueThunder came up with the best solution. 



SycamoreStateofMind said:


> I would HATE it if we lost our ESPN3 deal. I love watching football and basketball away games on that platform. That is the best thing the Valley has ever done.


Agreed times infinity. Losing that deal would hurt and it will be interesting to see if ESPN renews the deal post Wichita State departure.


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## niklz62

why dont they just rotate between schools that have enough space.


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## ISUCC

Jason Svoboda said:


> I've been told by several folks at Indiana State that Wichita State is gone. With the Shockers bolting to the AAC, that leaves the Valley in a pretty precarious position.
> 
> Golden wrote a new article saying it isn't dire straights for the Valley and I'm not sure I agree with his thoughts. I don't think the Valley holds the cachet it once did and I personally think the divide between public football schools and the privates in the conference is a WIDE chasm to breach.
> 
> http://www.tribstar.com/sports/loca...cle_b89d63cc-5e3a-5a62-93a2-090c623eceb8.html
> 
> Article from NDSU's beat writer's eyes:
> 
> http://www.inforum.com/sports/42408...etween-summit-and-valley#.WNgvAIuDIQe.twitter



I agree with you Jason, the MVC is toast when WSU leaves, we'll become a for sure 1 bid league now, and slip to low major status. The schools that the rest of the MVC teams would agree on for additions are not very good. 

And I don't trust Elgin either, like others have said elsewhere, when all the realignment was really going on the MVC was passive, not aggressive, and that will be our downfall. It's the beginning of the end.


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## niklz62

Id Like to see an all sports conference that included  ISU, ISU, EIU, WIU, SIU, SEMO and whoever else fits.  maybe you guys who hate that the MAC exists would sprinkle in NIU and Ball St.

That's 4 drives less than 3 hours for me and 1 long par 5 from my house


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## BrokerZ

I don't think it's a question of whether the Valley is better or worse without WSU.  The Valley is clearly worse.  The question for me is: is it better for ISU if WSU is not in the Valley?  Times are changing and we will never be able to go back to once was.  Tulsa, Creighton and WSU are never walking back through that door again, so what do we do from here?

First, I don't think WSU leaving is bad for ISU, and I say that because I consider the three main goals of each and every season to be: 1) Win the regular season, 2) Win the conference tournament, and 3) Make the NCAA tournament.  WSU leaving the conference immediately helps us achieve all three of those goals.  I don't really give a rip where the conference tournament is played, how the city of St. Louis will fare without Arch Madness, how many fans show up, etc.  All I care about is ISU achieving those three goals.  WSU being in the conference really only possibly helps #3 on that list, and that's in the very outside chance we're up for an at-large bid.  That's not realistically happening with WSU in the conference, so why do I care if they leave?  I'm a fan of ISU first and the MVC distantly second.

Next, I actually think Arch Madness could survive without WSU.  Illinois State brought nearly as many fans as WSU this year because...wait for it...they actually had a chance to win.  SIU fans alone used to fill that place up when they were competitive, but they haven't had a realistic shot at winning for a long time.  If ISU actually had a chance to win, we'd bring 4 times the fans we usually bring.  The Valley hasn't filled Scottrade up in a long time even with WSU and Creighton at the height of their powers, so not much really will have changed there.

Lastly, I'm not 100% convinced WSU leaves.  I'm sure I'll be proven wrong about that, but I don't see this as such a slam dunk as everyone else.  That's for a couple of reasons.  One being that Elgin is about as far up Greg Marshall's ass as he can be.  Elgin personally helped recruit Marshall to WSU...they have a bond that's different than with other universities.  The other reason being that I question the long term viability of the AAC.  It's a football-first conference, and when the P5 conferences look to expand further the AAC is the first place they'll look.  Eventually the Big 12 will have to expand or die, and Houston, Cincy and UCONN will all be gone...SMU possibly, as well.  That conference will be shit without those top schools.  It's a very top-heavy conference as it is, and those at the top are actively and strongly looking to leave.

Bottom line...life will move on without the Shockers if they leave, and it'll possibly move on to our benefit.  We'll be fine.


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## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> I agree with you Jason, the MVC is toast when WSU leaves, we'll become a for sure 1 bid league now, and slip to low major status. The schools that the rest of the MVC teams would agree on for additions are not very good.
> 
> And I don't trust Elgin either, like others have said elsewhere, when all the realignment was really going on the MVC was passive, not aggressive, and that will be our downfall. It's the beginning of the end.


I think you misunderstood what I was saying or I didn't do a good enough job conveying my thoughts -- probably the latter. The Valley, as well as every other mid-major conference, became a one bid league once the Big East split in 2013. When the old Big East split into two conferences, they effectively turned one high major conference into two with the creation of the "new" Big East and the American. While it wasn't immediate, it set the wheels in motion. 

Prior to another high major conference being around, there were 3-4 bids that were in the non-automatic qualifier pool that the upper tier mid-major conferences had "access" to, or at least received greater consideration for. Toss in the further consolidation among the P5 and they expanded their "bid surface" which gives them the opportunity/possibility of another bid or two.

You can validate this theory by looking at the number of bids given to high major conferences since 2013. The upper crust of mid-major conferences (Mountain West, West Coast, Missouri Valley and the Mid-American) have steadily lost their second bids since this happened which the consolidated power conferences have steadily received an extra bid or two. 

Some pundits say both the Atlantic 10 and American are mid-major conferences and I completely disagree when you look at their spending. For example, most A-10 schools have budgets that mirror the MAC so they're a mid-major, right? Not when you consider the budgets are the same and they don't field football programs. So if the Big East is considered a power conference, so to should be the Atlantic 10. 

The Math

There are 68 total openings when you have your 64 seeds and the 4 extra "first four" game opponents. There are 32 Division 1 hoops conferences so 68 participants minus 32 automatic qualifiers gives you 36 "at large" (might as well drop the at moniker) bids. Between the 8 high major conferences, you have 100 total teams. This year, those conferences received 43 total bids. Subtract the 8 automatic qualifiers and that means 35 of the 36 available bids went to power conference schools. There was literally 1 bid up for grabs by mid-major conferences and it went to Saint Mary's, who was ranked the entire year going 28-4 and suffered 3 of those 4 losses to Gonzaga. 

It should also be noted that the West Coast Conference is comprised of private schools and only 2 fund football, BYU has FBS football and San Diego plays non-scholarship in the Pioneer League. Since they don't have to disclose OpEd data, my guess is they look very similar to the Atlantic 10.

Bottom Line

What do you think happens if any of those power conferences continue to expand? The AAC will take Wichita for the sole hope that it nets them an additional tournament team -- that will move them to 12 teams. The ACC is sitting at 15 teams and has discussed moving to 16. When does the Big 12 decide they need to expand? They've talked about adding Colorado State, Houston and some other teams. Then you'd have the AAC looking to replace them so on and so forth. All this does is cement the fact that the Valley is, and will be, a one bid league here on out.

_*Any consideration Indiana State makes should not be in what is the best interest of the Valley as a whole but rather what is in the best interest of the school.*_


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## BrokerZ

Jason, that was one of the best things I've read on here in a long time.  Wonderfully written and pointed out everything one needs to consider.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Basically putting no value on the regular season other than trying avoid the current play-in-game situation. IL State wanted to blame it on sos - I say it doesn't matter. Add two higher major teams and say you split you are in the same boat you were in having not scheduled them at all. Your basically selling out to get the auto bid in your conference tournament or your not going to make it - plain and simple, like Jason said drop the "at" and just call them Large (Major) Bids.


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## BrokerZ

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Basically putting no value on the regular season other than trying avoid the current play-in-game situation. IL State wanted to blame it on sos - I say it doesn't matter. Add two higher major teams and say you split you are in the same boat you were in having not scheduled them at all. Your basically selling out to get the auto bid in your conference tournament your your not going to make it - plain and simple.



Totally agree, and I don't think that's really a change with our without WSU.  Indiana State's entire regular conference season is to avoid Thursday and to get ready for the tournament.  That's been the case for quite some time.  There was the one year with Odum (think it was maybe 2013) when we beat Miami in the non-con where we were in the discussion for a little while, but as Jason pointed out the calculus has changed since then.


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## treeman

What are the REALISTIC public options for a WSU replacement? Murray State (I can live with that), EKU (no), Milwaukee (potential)

What are the just the REALISTIC options with private schools? Valpo (I like that), Belmont (that's a good one), Detroit (wouldn't be the worst add)

The way I see it, there are 3 good options for the Valley: Murray State, Belmont, Valpo. After that, any addition will be another Loyola.


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## Jason Svoboda

treeman said:


> The way I see it, there are 3 good options for the Valley: Murray State, Belmont, Valpo. After that, any addition will be another Loyola.


And 2 of these 3 are negatives for Indiana State. When you realize Murray State spends almost $1m more per year on hoops than we do, it could be argued they're all negatives for us.

Any program brought forth that is private and doesn't field scholarship football should instantly be voted no. You'd be voting against your best interests.


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## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Basically putting no value on the regular season other than trying avoid the current play-in-game situation. IL State wanted to blame it on sos - I say it doesn't matter. Add two higher major teams and say you split you are in the same boat you were in having not scheduled them at all. Your basically selling out to get the auto bid in your conference tournament or your not going to make it - plain and simple, like Jason said drop the "at" and just call them Large (Major) Bids.


Bingo. In theory it is nice for us to schedule up, but your season could essentially be over before conference play even starts. Literally you're playing for the NIT/CIT/CBI and/or keeping your job if you have a contract nearing its completion.

This is also the exact reason why those high major squads refuse to play the upper tier mid-major programs. They know they're going to drop conference games and there are potentially millions of dollars riding on those NCAA bids so I would schedule Florida A&M and Jacksonville State over Indiana State and Northern Iowa every year, too. Additionally, to high major program fan bases, there is no difference between those four schools unless you're really into college hoops and know better.


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## Bluethunder

BrokerZ said:


> Next, I actually think Arch Madness could survive without WSU.  Illinois State brought nearly as many fans as WSU this year because...wait for it...they actually had a chance to win.  SIU fans alone used to fill that place up when they were competitive, but they haven't had a realistic shot at winning for a long time.  If ISU actually had a chance to win, we'd bring 4 times the fans we usually bring.  The Valley hasn't filled Scottrade up in a long time even with WSU and Creighton at the height of their powers, so not much really will have changed there.
> 
> The other reason being that I question the long term viability of the AAC.  It's a football-first conference, and when the P5 conferences look to expand further the AAC is the first place they'll look.  Eventually the Big 12 will have to expand or die, and Houston, Cincy and UCONN will all be gone...SMU possibly, as well.  That conference will be shit without those top schools.  It's a very top-heavy conference as it is, and those at the top are actively and strongly looking to leave.



Spot on Brokerz.  I posted similar thoughts earlier this year in saying that losing WSU might bring more fans to Arch Madness (or at least more than what comes from each school now) because alums and fans might feel better about their chances.  The last time I attended was in 2013 and other than Illinois State and Indiana State, nobody brought a big group because WSU was undefeated and everyone felt like it was already over.

I also agree about the AAC.  UCONN is desperate to get out of the AAC and Cincy has dumped a bunch of money into football.  If those teams leave down the road, the AAC isnt all that impressive.  Im also not convinced that SMU can maintain their level of success.  Yes, the AAC is a step up from the MVC today, but that could change a lot in a few years.


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## Jason Svoboda

Bluethunder said:


> Spot on Brokerz.  I posted similar thoughts earlier this year in saying that losing WSU might bring more fans to Arch Madness (or at least more than what comes from each school now) because alums and fans might feel better about their chances.  The last time I attended was in 2013 and other than Illinois State and Indiana State, nobody brought a big group because WSU was undefeated and everyone felt like it was already over.
> 
> I also agree about the AAC.  UCONN is desperate to get out of the AAC and Cincy has dumped a bunch of money into football.  If those teams leave down the road, the AAC isnt all that impressive.  Im also not convinced that SMU can maintain their level of success.  Yes, the AAC is a step up from the MVC today, but that could change a lot in a few years.


Just don't see it. I've been digging more into media deals since that is what most of this is really centered around. I found an article from last Summer where it states the Big 12 media deals pay schools about $20m per year and if they expanded, the networks would be required to pay the same amount to new members. My guess this is a big reason why expansion ended up not happening as I'm sure ESPN told them their next deal would likely stay the same or fall based on cable subscriber numbers dropping. 

American's media deal extends to 2020 and each team currently makes $1.5m per year off of that. After Twitch mentioned how it would stink to lose the ESPN deal, I went back to the MVC website and see that ours runs through 2024 -- they signed a 10 year extension a couple years ago. The only numbers I could find say the MVC's media deal pays $190k a year -- for the entire conference. When Wichita bolts over to the AAC right in time to re-negotiate their media deal, my guess is they'll be able to negotiate an increase and unless the Big 12 members decide expansion is worth giving up several million per year, I can't fathom how the AAC falters. 

The problem most AAC schools have is they have either/or syndrome and that will keep them from being serious candidates for expansion to the bigger conferences. What I mean is either their hoops program is good or their football program is good, but not one school in the conference has both. If anything, I think the AAC will get stronger as they may cherry pick a couple more schools to join Wichita in hopes that secures them a better media deal. Guess we'll see.


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## bent20

We can't compete consistently in the Valley with or without Creighton or WSU, or NDSU in football. So does the conference's reputation really matter that much to me as an ISU fan? Why should I care if we're a one bid league when we're never in contention for an automatic bid? Why should I care unless all I really want is to be able to boast about how my team plays in the mighty Missouri Valley Conference? Never mind that we're the lowest of the low in terms of just about everything. All I know is we need to find a level playing field and quit pretending like mid-major conferences are what they once were, or at least seemed to be.


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## Sycamore624

The AAC is kinda going to be the Power 5 then there is the AAC. Like Jason said none of the schools in the AAC are ready in position to jump to a P5 so they are kinda trying to build the "best of the non P5" conference. I'm kinda on board with Bent, regardless of wether Wichita stays or leave we are not going to be competitive anytime soon in hoops or football. I hold out more hope for football than either mens or womens hoops at this point.


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## sycamorebacker

DatSycamoreFan said:


> The AAC is kinda going to be the Power 5 then there is the AAC. Like Jason said none of the schools in the AAC are ready in position to jump to a P5 so they are kinda trying to build the "best of the non P5" conference. I'm kinda on board with Bent, regardless of wether Wichita stays or leave we are not going to be competitive anytime soon in hoops or football. I hold out more hope for football than either mens or womens hoops at this point.



Men's basketball is not going to be a problem.


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## sycamorebacker

DatSycamoreFan said:


> I'm kinda on board with Bent, regardless of wether Wichita stays or leave we are not going to be competitive anytime soon in hoops or football. I hold out more hope for football than either mens or womens hoops at this point.



Not sure what you guys are talking about in Men's bball.


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## Bluethunder

Jason Svoboda said:


> Just don't see it. I've been digging more into media deals since that is what most of this is really centered around. I found an article from last Summer where it states the Big 12 media deals pay schools about $20m per year and if they expanded, the networks would be required to pay the same amount to new members. My guess this is a big reason why expansion ended up not happening as I'm sure ESPN told them their next deal would likely stay the same or fall based on cable subscriber numbers dropping.
> 
> American's media deal extends to 2020 and each team currently makes $1.5m per year off of that. After Twitch mentioned how it would stink to lose the ESPN deal, I went back to the MVC website and see that ours runs through 2024 -- they signed a 10 year extension a couple years ago. The only numbers I could find say the MVC's media deal pays $190k a year -- for the entire conference. When Wichita bolts over to the AAC right in time to re-negotiate their media deal, my guess is they'll be able to negotiate an increase and unless the Big 12 members decide expansion is worth giving up several million per year, I can't fathom how the AAC falters.
> 
> The problem most AAC schools have is they have either/or syndrome and that will keep them from being serious candidates for expansion to the bigger conferences. What I mean is either their hoops program is good or their football program is good, but not one school in the conference has both. If anything, I think the AAC will get stronger as they may cherry pick a couple more schools to join Wichita in hopes that secures them a better media deal. Guess we'll see.



IMO, it all depends on what UCONN and the ACC do.  If the ACC expands and takes UCONN, then does Cincinnati look to get out?  Can SMU maintain their level of success right now?

I could see the AAC being a good conference in five years, but I could also see it being picked apart and going the way Conference USA went several years back.


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## Jason Svoboda

Bluethunder said:


> IMO, it all depends on what UCONN and the ACC do.  If the ACC expands and takes UCONN, then does Cincinnati look to get out?  Can SMU maintain their level of success right now?
> 
> I could see the AAC being a good conference in five years, but I could also see it being picked apart and going the way Conference USA went several years back.


That's the thing. I think we've seen the last of the original P5 expanding for awhile save for Notre Dame becoming a full member of the ACC or something crazy happening -- I'm looking at you, Texas, that has been rumored to want to leave the B12 for the Pac-12 and SEC in the last several years. But really, what does the ACC get for adding UConn? Jim Calhoun is not walking back through those doors to cheat his ass off anytime soon and their football program is average on it's best day. They really messed up by not being more aggressive prior to and when the original Big East split. 

The ACC also signed their media deal last year that extended it to 2035-2036. That would be a nice chunk of change to have to split up if they didn't right expansion verbiage in there like the Big 12 has from their old deal -- and I'd imagine the media companies covered their asses with all of the cord cutters. They're (the ACC) also getting their own channel in the next couple years I believe. But you may be right... at least this has given us something to talk about in the offseason.


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## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> That's the thing. I think we've seen the last of the original P5 expanding for awhile save for Notre Dame becoming a full member of the ACC or something crazy happening -- I'm looking at you, Texas, that has been rumored to want to leave the B12 for the Pac-12 and SEC in the last several years. But really, what does the ACC get for adding UConn? Jim Calhoun is not walking back through those doors to cheat his ass off anytime soon and their football program is average on it's best day. They really messed up by not being more aggressive prior to and when the original Big East split.
> 
> The ACC also signed their media deal last year that extended it to 2035-2036. That would be a nice chunk of change to have to split up if they didn't right expansion verbiage in there like the Big 12 has from their old deal -- and I'd imagine the media companies covered their asses with all of the cord cutters. They're (the ACC) also getting their own channel in the next couple years I believe. But you may be right... at least this has given us something to talk about in the offseason.



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Expansion?

ACC = 15
Big 12 = 10
Big Ten = 14
  Pac-12 = 12
  $EC = 14

  Total = 65

Right now the "power 5" is structured close to what they want to be, no?
They have the FBS football locked up, they have the majority of the March Madness bids

I could see a shuttering of the Big 12 and those 10 schools "dispersed" to the other 4 conferences OR no change to the status quo.

Any move they make will put MORE $$ in their pockets, not less and as long as those greedy bastards in austin keep their network, i don't see a change to the status quo.


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## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>  <w:WordDocument>   <w:View>Normal</w:View>   <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>   <w:TrackMoves/>   <w:TrackFormatting/>   <wunctuationKerning/>   <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>   <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>   <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>   <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>   <woNotPromoteQF/>   <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther>   <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian>   <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript>   <w:Compatibility>    <w:BreakWrappedTables/>    <w:SnapToGridInCell/>    <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>    <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>    <wontGrowAutofit/>    <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/>    <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/>    <wontFlipMirrorIndents/>    <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/>   </w:Compatibility>   <woNotOptimizeForBrowser/>   <m:mathPr>    <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/>    <m:brkBin m:val="before"/>    <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/>    <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/>    <m:dispDef/>    <m:lMargin m:val="0"/>    <m:rMargin m:val="0"/>    <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/>    <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/>    <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/>    <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/>   </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Any move they make will put MORE $$ in their pockets, not less and as long as those greedy bastards in austin keep their network, i don't see a change to the status quo.


Will have to try to find the article when I get home but that is not how they saw it for the Big 12 media. They specifically worded it like any team that came in would split the current deal distribution per school and with the cable industry losing subscribers by the truckload, the next media deals signed will be considerably less.


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## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> Will have to try to find the article when I get home but that is not how they saw it for the Big 12 media. They specifically worded it like any team that came in would split the current deal distribution per school and with the cable industry losing subscribers by the truckload, the next media deals signed will be considerably less.



I agree with that statement, which is why I'll be shocked if the Big 12  expands -- the current members won't make any moves that harm their  bottomline(s).


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## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> I agree with that statement, which is why I'll be shocked if the Big 12  expands -- the current members won't make any moves that harm their  bottomline(s).


I'm with you now... I'm a bit slow sometimes. Here is a link to that article if anyone else wants to read it:

http://www.si.com/college-football/2016/08/02/big-12-expansion-aac-may-need-rely-new-media

Also heard an interesting scenario that I think makes a lot of sense but I doubt it would ever happen. If UConn finds themselves left in the American long term, some of their alumni suggested dropping football (or going back to FCS) and moving into the Atlantic 10. I thought that was actually a pretty elegant solution if they get stonewalled as it is a better fit both basketball and academic profile wise.


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## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> I'm with you now... I'm a bit slow sometimes. Here is a link to that article if anyone else wants to read it:
> 
> http://www.si.com/college-football/2016/08/02/big-12-expansion-aac-may-need-rely-new-media
> 
> Also heard an interesting scenario that I think makes a lot of sense but I doubt it would ever happen. If UConn finds themselves left in the American long term, some of their alumni suggested dropping football (or going back to FCS) and moving into the Atlantic 10. I thought that was actually a pretty elegant solution if they get stonewalled as it is a better fit both basketball and academic profile wise.



Makes sense, there are dozens and dozens of UConn alumni and fans who would prefer the Huskies in FCS football...   The same number are still PO'd that Randy Edsall left them high and dry after the school committed to FBS football.


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## Jason Svoboda

An article from MMM on what they believe the MVC should do. Guy is a Missouri State alum and not once did he talk about the finances of the league. 

http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017/3/29/15080936/conference-realignment-what-should-the-mvc-do-if-when-wichita-state-leaves-expansion-valley-shockers

An article from the SDSU AD. Lots of AD speak but it sounds like they're happy with the Summit/MVFC combo. 

http://www.argusleader.com/story/sp.../q-justin-sell-state-sdsu-athletics/99764622/


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## BrokerZ

Jason Svoboda said:


> An article from MMM on what they believe the MVC should do. Guy is a Missouri State alum and not once did he talk about the finances of the league.
> 
> http://www.argusleader.com/story/sp.../q-justin-sell-state-sdsu-athletics/99764622/
> 
> An article from the SDSU AD. Lots of AD speak but it sounds like they're happy with the Summit/MVFC combo.
> 
> http://www.argusleader.com/story/sp.../q-justin-sell-state-sdsu-athletics/99764622/



You posted the same SDSU article twice.  Can you repost the MMM article?


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## Jason Svoboda

BrokerZ said:


> You posted the same SDSU article twice.  Can you repost the MMM article?



Fixed the initial post. Here you go:

http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017...ichita-state-leaves-expansion-valley-shockers


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## tjbison

Jason Svoboda said:


> Fixed the initial post. Here you go:
> 
> http://www.midmajormadness.com/2017...ichita-state-leaves-expansion-valley-shockers



MVC cant have the Summit fall apart either for the MVFC/MVC Football members sake, I wouldnt see them raiding too many Summit teams.

UMKC brings ZERO they arereally in a crappy WAC league
ORU brings ZERO Since NDSU/SDSU joined the Summit they have done nothing even left and came back
IUPUI or IPFW are not even third on the list for fanbase in Indiana they bring nothing
UND is in a budget nightmare and just too new to be anything for the MVC and they are little brother to NDSU and they are a Hockey first school
USD same timeframe as UND probably a Summit team forever
SDSU think deep down would love to be in the Valley but they might be tied eternally to USD and they have the conf champ game in their backyard
UN- Omaha, really new to D1, good location but they have Hockey it costs a ton, think they are maxed on support right now
Denver, how far west does the MVC want to go?? If people think Fargo is far Denver is farther

I think the Public Football schools in the MVC need to add a Public Football school to keep some balance, they really have to be taking consideration internally into NDSU/SDSU wouldnt you think?

Fargo at 240,000 isnt a huge market but throw in MN, SD, ND, Western MT where the TV reaches and you cover a ton of people, plus Minneapolis is a hotbed for Alumni, we are playing a FB game at Twins Stadium in 2018 and I bet it will be packed.

I know the haters will always bash NDSU but the things they have accomplished in a relatively short period of time in DI cant be ignored and the money they are investing into facilities.  all my opinion

http://www.gobison.com/facilities/?id=37


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## Jason Svoboda

While most of that rings true, the problem with Valley expansion is that most teams are literally tapped out with resources. The Wichita replacement has to be looked at with financial implications outside of basketball. Most of the schools within the Valley are already operating at huge subsidies and placing the burden on students. At some point there is going to be a fallout where they say no, we don't want to pay for college athletics and those student fees disappear.

Looking at the 2015 numbers from the USA Today NCAA Finance database, here is how the public schools look:

Illinois State - $26,316,799 budget on a 72.8% subsidy. $19,155,965 came from student feeds and/or institutional support. 
Missouri State - $25,180,896 budget with 63.1% subsidy. $15,885,964 came from student fees and/or institutional support. 
Southern Illinois - $22,377,794 with 64.4% subsidy. $14,404,894 came from student fees and/or institutional support. 
Northern Iowa - $20,477,962 with 52.3% subsidy. $10,708,536 came from student fees and/or institutional support. 
Indiana State - $14,593,214 with 75.3% subsidy. $10,980,783 came from student fees and/or institutional support. 

*Source:* http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances

Also keep in mind that a lot of Valley schools are now losing some of their state funding and have to make cuts to athletics. So that will cause for an even greater separation. Being in the Valley these days is like the guy that goes out and leases a BMW 3 series and talks about all the money he (doesn't) have.

*Source: *http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article138677778.html

Honestly, and I know I've always been in the minority, but you can have our seat at the Valley table. IMO, we're more financial similar to the Ohio Valley schools. If the OVC called up Elgin and asked to do a 1:1 swap with Belmont, I'd hope both administrations would take it in a second. We've long been priced out of the Valley and it is only continuing to happen -- our overall athletics subsidy has gone up 10% since 2005 and the reality of the situation is we don't have enough alumni or fans to change that anytime soon.


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## Westbadenboy

TJBISON -- I'm confused by the arena picture in your post -- the website says it only holds 5700 ...........? ? ?
Doesn't look like a 15,000 seat arena, but looks way bigger than 5700 seats .........way bigger ? ? ?


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## Coach

"Honestly, and I know I've always been in the minority, but you can have our seat at the Valley table. IMO, we're more financial similar to the Ohio Valley schools."

I agree with your comment there Jason.  The OVC gets one seat in the field of 68 annually and irregardless of Elgin's statement about the MVC never being a one bid league, it already is; two teams tie for the regular season championship with 17-1 records and only one goes to the Big Dance? Sycamores would compete favorably most seasons in the OVC in all sports. ISU rarely competes for championships in basketbal anywayl unless as some are content with once every 5-8  years or so.
A one & done NCAA share pays the same for all entrants & sometimes a team might  win one & the conference grabs another share for game two. Just as likely for the OVC as for the MVC.


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## treeman

Just out of curiosity, has there ever been a school to "downgrade" in conference affiliation that was not forced?


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## Jason Svoboda

treeman said:


> Just out of curiosity, has there ever been a school to "downgrade" in conference affiliation that was not forced?


Couldn't tell you but the NCAA landscape has never looked like it currently does, either.


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## Jason Svoboda

ACC will make more than $100 million off schools' NCAA tourney runs over past 3 years. For those of you that have some wild fantasies about the MVC adding the right teams and getting more bids. That isn't happening. Shitters full, Clark. 

http://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...s-combined-ncaa-tourney-runs-last-three-years


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## BrokerZ

Jason Svoboda said:


> Shitters full, Clark.



No truer words have ever been spoken...


----------



## meistro

Jason Svoboda said:


> ACC will make more than $100 million off schools' NCAA tourney runs over past 3 years. For those of you that have some wild fantasies about the MVC adding the right teams and getting more bids. That isn't happening. Shitters full, Clark.
> 
> http://www.espn.com/mens-college-ba...s-combined-ncaa-tourney-runs-last-three-years



The rich get richer. You're not making me feel too optimistic. I agree with what your saying but I still think the MVC would have a better shot at getting a second bid once in a while. Wherever we are, we've got to find a way to raise money better. I've talked to Clink a few times and I really think he's the right man at the right time. But, his biggest challenge is funds and the lack of them.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

meistro said:


> The rich get richer. You're not making me feel too optimistic. I agree with what your saying but I still think the MVC would have a better shot at getting a second bid once in a while. Wherever we are, we've got to find a way to raise money better. I've talked to Clink a few times and I really think he's the right man at the right time. But, his biggest challenge is funds and the lack of them.




Ditto on all points.


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## sycamore tuff

treeman said:


> Just out of curiosity, has there ever been a school to "downgrade" in conference affiliation that was not forced?



west texas state


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## Jason Svoboda

Milwaukee blog has thoughts of creating a conference pillaging MVC teams aside from us, Drake and Evansville. 

http://pantheru.com/2017/03/upon-this-rock/


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## BankShot

Jason Svoboda said:


> Milwaukee blog has thoughts of creating a conference pillaging MVC teams aside from us, Drake and Evansville.
> 
> http://pantheru.com/2017/03/upon-this-rock/



Good article, but is this guy referencing U. of Wisconsin or UW-M? Talk about an over-inflated ego...


----------



## tjbison

Westbadenboy said:


> TJBISON -- I'm confused by the arena picture in your post -- the website says it only holds 5700 ...........? ? ?
> Doesn't look like a 15,000 seat arena, but looks way bigger than 5700 seats .........way bigger ? ? ?



It's 5700, but there is a rail SRO level, so I'm guessing they could put 6k or a little more if needed


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## niklz62

I assume Elgin means 2 bids if someone could beat WSU in the tournament.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BankShot said:


> Good article, but is this guy referencing U. of Wisconsin or UW-M? Talk about an over-inflated ego...


Kinda like the expectations of our fans when we've got the worst budget in the Valley but they think we should be competing for titles every year? Yeah, those guys are the worst.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Article comes up short but nevertheless an interesting article here, guys. This is why this conference is just not suited for today's landscape because between itself and the MVFC, they don't know what the hell they want to be. 

http://www.kansas.com/sports/college/wichita-state/article142198179.html


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## Jason Svoboda

Missouri State restructuring:



> By replacing field hockey with beach volleyball, a spring sport, Athletics will realize an annual savings of $300,600 with no anticipated impact on the number of participating female student-athletes.
> The work group also recommended the following cost-saving measures related to Athletics:
> Reduction of operating expenses by 7-12 percent for each program, for an annual savings of $363,000.
> Restructuring of academic aid budgeted for fifth-year student-athletes who have exhausted their athletic eligibility will also result in an annual savings of $108,000. This restructuring will still accommodate all fifth-year student-athletes for the foreseeable future.
> Reduction in apparel expenditures with its official apparel provider by $59,300 each year.
> Restructuring the position of a retiring staff member to save $20,600.
> Scholarship reductions in equivalency sports only, totaling $209,900.
> 
> The total annual cost savings from these changes is expected to be $1,061,400.



http://missouristatebears.com/news/...es.aspx?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

And this is the school that is supposed to be moving up to FBS? Please.


----------



## SycamoreinTexas

*When Wichita leaves*

Rumor I've heard is MVC wants to add 3. MVC official at UIC today. Belmont, Valpo, Oakland and Murray St also in the mix...hmmm


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## Jason Svoboda

Time for us to go.


----------



## niklz62

we need an all sport conference


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## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> Time for us to go.



Or make a change regarding football, I don't see us succeeding in our current situation.


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## 4Q_iu

niklz62 said:


> we need an all sport conference



Such as? OVC?


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## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> Or make a change regarding football, I don't see us succeeding in our current situation.


They had their chance with Sanford's departure and a new AD hire. Instead, we doubled down on football. It's not going anywhere.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> Such as? OVC?


Yes. If the MVC is going to continue to add private, non football schools we're going to continue to slide further and further into the abyss. I'd prefer to be in a all-sport conference where our opponents have the same landscape and fiscal issues we have.


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## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> They had their chance with Sanford's departure and a new AD hire. Instead, we doubled down on football. It's not going anywhere.



IMO, football is on a rocky path; I see us keeping football under Dr Bradley.  Once he leaves, I think any new administration will address it.  So, since the university has doubled down, it's on the alumni, students and fan base to double down as well.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> Yes. If the MVC is going to continue to add private, non football schools we're going to continue to slide further and further into the abyss. I'd prefer to be in a all-sport conference where our opponents have the same landscape and fiscal issues we have.




Absolutely agree; though I'd argue before we commit to an OVC-like conference, that we test the waters; true ### crunching; survey the alumni, fan base, etc on moving the football team to the Pioneer league like Drake -- especially if Valparaiso would end up in the Valley...

Would fan interest drop off?

If we're playing Drake, Valpo, Butler, Dayton...  it may be unworkable BUT Morehead makes it work for them ( at least on the surface )


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> IMO, football is on a rocky path; I see us keeping football under Dr Bradley.  Once he leaves, I think any new administration will address it.  So, since the university has doubled down, it's on the alumni, students and fan base to double down as well.


Which is the rub. The students already have since their student fees subsidizes over 60-65% of athletics total spending. 

You're not squeezing more blood from that turnip. As for alumni and fans, they don't care. They've said as much with their wallets. Hell, even our football alumni are on social media talking about FBS football more than they talk about FCS. Same with several of our basketball alumni.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> Absolutely agree; though I'd argue before we commit to an OVC-like conference, that we test the waters; true ### crunching; survey the alumni, fan base, etc on moving the football team to the Pioneer league like Drake -- especially if Valparaiso would end up in the Valley...
> 
> Would fan interest drop off?
> 
> If we're playing Drake, Valpo, Butler, Dayton...  it may be unworkable BUT Morehead makes it work for them ( at least on the surface )


You either have football or you don't. Pioneer League schools are still spending $1-2m per year on expenses and most of those schools offer academic scholarships so those beans end up being on a different ledger but they're still there. 

Since Indiana State would likely be true non-scholarship, we'd see another period of 0-for-forever results so there is no point in that. And yes, I think what little fan interest there is would fall even more. You had damn well better offer every local kid in hopes of getting their friends and families to come to games if you went that route.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> IMO, football is on a rocky path; I see us keeping football under Dr Bradley.  Once he leaves, I think any new administration will address it.  So, since the university has doubled down, it's on the alumni, students and fan base to double down as well.


I thought so too but you've yet to see any colleges do it. UAB did and they're already back up and running in two years. With UAB back in biz, 13 Division 1 schools have dropped football over the last 2 decades and none since 2009:

1997 Boston
1997 Evansville
2001 California State Northridge	
2002 Canisius 
2002 Fairfield 
2002 St. John's 
2003 Saint Mary's
2003 Siena
2006 Saint Peter's 
2007 La Salle 
2008 Iona 
2009 Hofstra 
2009 Northeastern 

Outside of CSN, all smaller private schools, too.


----------



## niklz62

What did the AD from Morehead St say when they interviewed him about their changes to the football program?  It sounded like the whole athletic dept took a hit.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> Which is the rub. The students already have since their student fees subsidizes over 60-65% of athletics total spending.
> 
> You're not squeezing more blood from that turnip. As for alumni and fans, they don't care. They've said as much with their wallets. Hell, even our football alumni are on social media talking about FBS football more than they talk about FCS. Same with several of our basketball alumni.



well, then all sides have stated their preference.   shut down the program; bring back the wrestling team, men's tennis, golf, hell - start a lacrosse program, soccer... we'd STILL use fewer scholarships than with football.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> I thought so too but you've yet to see any colleges do it. UAB did and they're already back up and running in two years. With UAB back in biz, 13 Division 1 schools have dropped football over the last 2 decades and none since 2009:
> 
> 1997 Boston
> 1997 Evansville
> 2001 California State Northridge
> 2002 Canisius
> 2002 Fairfield
> 2002 St. John's
> 2003 Saint Mary's
> 2003 Siena
> 2006 Saint Peter's
> 2007 La Salle
> 2008 Iona
> 2009 Hofstra
> 2009 Northeastern
> 
> Outside of CSN, all smaller private schools, too.




UAB isn't an appropriate example.  the shuttering of THAT program came at the direction of the trustees, not the school administration ( IIFC ); that state is LED by tuscaloosa alums & fans; tuscaloosa doesn't want a successful uab program in football OR MBB.   Hell, the bastards went after Alabama-Huntsville's HOCKEY team!


It would be the same IF iupui suddenly became a peer mbb program to gloomington


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> You either have football or you don't. Pioneer League schools are still spending $1-2m per year on expenses and most of those schools offer academic scholarships so those beans end up being on a different ledger but they're still there.
> 
> Since Indiana State would likely be true non-scholarship, we'd see another period of 0-for-forever results so there is no point in that. And yes, I think what little fan interest there is would fall even more. You had damn well better offer every local kid in hopes of getting their friends and families to come to games if you went that route.




Fair -- so, shutter the program.  Call it a good run that ended decades late.  Save some $$$ and invest the rest in new/revived men's programs.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Found this 6 article series from Bloomberg when I was trying to find some other info. The debt service piece is something I really didn't think about. Crazy that Cal has $445m in outstanding debt. Talk about reckless spending.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/special-reports/college-football


----------



## Jason Svoboda

niklz62 said:


> What did the AD from Morehead St say when they interviewed him about their changes to the football program?  It sounded like the whole athletic dept took a hit.


It's the same thing as what Illinois has gone through as well as most publics in the Valley. State funds continue to dry up more and more. If the school also has declining enrollment and poor alumni support, it's a sure fire recipe for athletic cuts. Here is an article I found from last year and probably why he interviewed in the first place.

http://kentuckytoday.com/stories/citing-budget-shortfall-morehead-state-drops-tennis-programs,3979


----------



## ISUCC

Jason Svoboda said:


> It's the same thing as what Illinois has gone through as well as most publics in the Valley. State funds continue to dry up more and more. If the school also has declining enrollment and poor alumni support, it's a sure fire recipe for athletic cuts. Here is an article I found from last year and probably why he interviewed in the first place.
> 
> http://kentuckytoday.com/stories/citing-budget-shortfall-morehead-state-drops-tennis-programs,3979



LOL, they're adding Beach Volleyball, same as Missouri State is doing. Why don't we add beach volleyball too??


----------



## Fiji Bill 72

Why not Eastern Illinois. They have football, too. If Murray State came, Eastern would be a good fit.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Fiji Bill 72 said:


> Why not Eastern Illinois. They have football, too. If Murray State came, Eastern would be a good fit.


Because none of the other teams in the Valley is going to pick a school like EIU over other potential additions.


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> Because none of the other teams in the Valley is going to pick a school like EIU over other potential additions.



Why exactly, do you think that, Jason? They are not stellar in athletics but are they any worse than Drake or Bradley? They have 9000 students and compete OK in the OVC. Like the conference swap of a couple of years ago, Wichita State will start movement like a wall of dominoes. NO conference CANNOT stand still or they will pay for it. It's a mess. I would love to have a mike in Clinks office when the shit hits the fan.


----------



## ISUCC

Looks like UNO and Denver will be looked at by the Horizon League as well

http://www.omaha.com/sports/shatel-...cle_5759bc6e-fdd1-5542-a1b6-b3fbd08ac62b.html


----------



## ISUCC

before Sunday

https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mvc-to-hold-emergency-meeting-on-sunday-in-saint-louis/


----------



## 4Q_iu

Fiji Bill 72 said:


> Why not Eastern Illinois. They have football, too. If Murray State came, Eastern would be a good fit.



The problem with Eastern (and frankly ALL of the Illinois state-supported schools); how viable are they?  The entire state is bankrupt, I don't see illinois turning it's problems around in the near future...

PLUS, Eastern was in the MVFC (nee' Gateway) and chose to leave...   I don't see them coming back to the MVFC and the Valley


----------



## Coach

ISUCC said:


> before Sunday
> 
> https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mvc-to-hold-emergency-meeting-on-sunday-in-saint-louis/



"American Athletic Conference were preparing for the Shockers to join the league next season as a basketball only member."

Screw Wichita...........basketball member only......make them take all their sports on the road & pay for travel all over hell. If they have to go as an Independent in the other sports so be it!


----------



## Bally #50

4Q_iu said:


> The problem with Eastern (and frankly ALL of the Illinois state-supported schools); how viable are they?  The entire state is bankrupt, I don't see illinois turning it's problems around in the near future...
> 
> PLUS, Eastern was in the MVFC (nee' Gateway) and chose to leave...   I don't see them coming back to the MVFC and the Valley



Just sayin', 4Q, by the time the MVC gets off their ass and starts expanding, my guess is that they will baffle us with their choices and we'd rather have a school with some history with the conference, PLUS a full-sports program and we would prefer EIU over the choices of the conference hierarchy.


----------



## RoyalShock

Coach said:


> "American Athletic Conference were preparing for the Shockers to join the league next season as a basketball only member."
> 
> Screw Wichita...........basketball member only......make them take all their sports on the road & pay for travel all over hell. If they have to go as an Independent in the other sports so be it!



"Basketball only" in this context really means all except football, because apparently the talking heads think football and basketball are all that matter. Maybe they do in the grand scheme, but is it too much to ask them to report accurately?  At any rate, all WSU's sports will move to the AAC.


----------



## 4Q_iu

RoyalShock said:


> "Basketball only" in this context really means all except football, because apparently the talking heads think football and basketball are all that matter. Maybe they do in the grand scheme, but is it too much to ask them to report accurately?  At any rate, all WSU's sports will move to the AAC.



Agree, the "experts" only believe football and basketball (men's) matter

And if ANYONE thinks the Valley would tolerate the Shuckers remaining in the Valley for non-revenue sports is as about as bright as Wichita City adding football in the near future.

HOPEFULLY, come the meeting this Sunday, the Shuckers will be ineligible for any/all remaining Valley titles; all-conf teams, awards, etc.

Arrogant bastards -- be interesting to see how they fare in a new "better" conference


----------



## RoyalShock

4Q_iu said:


> Agree, the "experts" only believe football and basketball (men's) matter
> 
> And if ANYONE thinks the Valley would tolerate the Shuckers remaining in the Valley for non-revenue sports is as about as bright as Wichita City adding football in the near future.
> 
> HOPEFULLY, come the meeting this Sunday, the Shuckers will be ineligible for any/all remaining Valley titles; all-conf teams, awards, etc.
> 
> Arrogant bastards -- be interesting to see how they fare in a new "better" conference



I get this sentiment. I think we all felt this way when Creighton announced their move.

For me, it's bittersweet. I loved what the Valley became in the 2000s and had high hopes it would remain a perennial top-7 conference. I wish nothing but the best for league going forward. After a few years I hope WSU will schedule one of the better MVC teams each season.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Bally #47 said:


> Just sayin', 4Q, by the time the MVC gets off their ass and starts expanding, my guess is that they will baffle us with their choices and we'd rather have a school with some history with the conference, PLUS a full-sports program and we would prefer EIU over the choices of the conference hierarchy.





The other part of the equation (that is likely not getting ANY attention) is the campus identity...  most of the Valley schools are considered "national universities; every school has a grad school, there are three law schools and two medical schools; plus Drake's pharmacy school.

So, is that important?

I don't know if the Valley looks at it BUT I'd hope they do AND I believe it gets some discussion by the Univ Presidents (the folks who vote and therefore matter)

Does EIU have any of those?  I don't know and I don't know if the other potential schools do...

Valpo DOES have a law school
Belmont has a highly-rated music school; it's not julliard BUT it's a really good program.

The biggest reason, Im anti-OVC; i don't think those schools are academic peers of ours.

We also have zero tradition with any OVC schools, outside of Eastern Illinois; what are our rivalries?  

With EIU out of the equation and what are you left with?  This was our 41st year in the Valley; rivalries and traditions used to be a big, BIG part of what makes college sports special -- we won't have that if we leave for the OVC or other conf


----------



## 4Q_iu

RoyalShock said:


> I get this sentiment. I think we all felt this way when Creighton announced their move.
> 
> For me, it's bittersweet. I loved what the Valley became in the 2000s and had high hopes it would remain a perennial top-7 conference. I wish nothing but the best for league going forward. After a few years I hope WSU will schedule one of the better MVC teams each season.




Some would argue in a few years that Valley schools could refuse to play Wichita City


----------



## tjbison

4Q_iu said:


> The other part of the equation (that is likely not getting ANY attention) is the campus identity...  most of the Valley schools are considered "national universities; every school has a grad school, there are three law schools and two medical schools; plus Drake's pharmacy school.
> 
> So, is that important?
> 
> I don't know if the Valley looks at it BUT I'd hope they do AND I believe it gets some discussion by the Univ Presidents (the folks who vote and therefore matter)
> 
> Does EIU have any of those?  I don't know and I don't know if the other potential schools do...
> 
> Valpo DOES have a law school
> Belmont has a highly-rated music school; it's not julliard BUT it's a really good program.
> 
> The biggest reason, Im anti-OVC; i don't think those schools are academic peers of ours.
> 
> We also have zero tradition with any OVC schools, outside of Eastern Illinois; that our rivalries with them out of the equation and what are you left with?  This was our 41st year in the Valley; rivalries and traditions used to be a big, BIG part of what makes college sports special -- we won't have that if we leave



NDSU has highly rated Pharmacy and Engineering

:biggrin:


----------



## ISUCC

the MVC administrators have sat by with their passive attitudes since the mid 2000s watching all the other conferences get better, add better teams, while we've slowly dissolved into the pathetic conference were are today. Our options for additions are poor, so I assume the MVC brass will continue to be passive while the Horizon poaches the best teams available and we'll be left with the scraps. 

We'll know soon, it's sad, it really is.


----------



## ISUCC

4Q_iu said:


> Some would argue in a few years that Valley schools could refuse to play Wichita City



they'll be a perennial top 25 team, ANY MVC team that would refuse to play WSU would be STUPID

Same with Creighton, while they haven't played any MVC school since leaving I bet they do soon enough.


----------



## Coach

RoyalShock said:


> I get this sentiment. I think we all felt this way when Creighton announced their move.
> 
> For me, it's bittersweet. I loved what the Valley became in the 2000s and had high hopes it would remain a perennial top-7 conference. I wish nothing but the best for league going forward. After a few years I hope WSU will schedule one of the better MVC teams each season.



"schedule one of the better MVC teams each season".............what a kind gesture...........like 4Q_IU said "Arrogant bastards"....


----------



## 4Q_iu

tjbison said:


> NDSU has highly rated Pharmacy and Engineering
> 
> :biggrin:



Per what criteria?

US News?

Forbes?

Washington Monthly?

There are 100+ plus pharmacy programs... US News had ND State tied at #66...

I found this, wrt engineering ranking(s):  https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/search?program=top-engineering-schools&name=Dakota


----------



## 4Q_iu

ISUCC said:


> they'll be a perennial top 25 team, ANY MVC team that would refuse to play WSU would be STUPID
> 
> Same with Creighton, while they haven't played any MVC school since leaving I bet they do soon enough.




Only time will tell; let's see wichita city do it in a different conference AND if they keep slimy gregg marshall...


----------



## 4Q_iu

ISUCC said:


> the MVC administrators have sat by with their passive attitudes since the mid 2000s watching all the other conferences get better, add better teams, while we've slowly dissolved into the pathetic conference were are today. Our options for additions are poor, so I assume the MVC brass will continue to be passive while the Horizon poaches the best teams available and we'll be left with the scraps.
> 
> We'll know soon, it's sad, it really is.




So... given that the MVC is "somewhat" of a hybrid conference... some FCS football, some non-scholie football AND some No Football...

Which 'better teams' could the Valley have added?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

RoyalShock said:


> I get this sentiment. I think we all felt this way when Creighton announced their move.
> 
> For me, it's bittersweet. I loved what the Valley became in the 2000s and had high hopes it would remain a perennial top-7 conference. I wish nothing but the best for league going forward. After a few years I hope WSU will schedule one of the better MVC teams each season.


I think most Valley fans feel this way and that's why they hold on with sentimental dear life... but dammit, this conference has become a mismatched sock drawer out of the wake of NCAA consolidation. Wichita State doesn't belong here and if Indiana State fans are being brutally honest doesn't either. A lot of these fans holding on are the same folks that won't make donations to the athletic department, buy tickets, so on and so forth.

As for Wichita State, you'll buy a home game against the best Valley team most likely. Doubt we'll see many home/home series if Creighton is any indicator.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> So... given that the MVC is "somewhat" of a hybrid conference... some FCS football, some non-scholie football AND some No Football...
> 
> Which 'better teams' could the Valley have added?


There were none when Creighton left and there are certainly none left out there now that move the needle in any fashion.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Coach said:


> "schedule one of the better MVC teams each season".............what a kind gesture...........like 4Q_IU said "Arrogant bastards"....


It's not arrogance, it's fact. Who has Creighton scheduled with regularity? How about former Valley teams that moved up before them? The fact of the matter is the Valley is not all people make it out to be. It's simply the best of the mid-major conferences but in the overall landscape that doesn't mean jack shit. Valley teams, when having good years, will become buy games for the lower level power schools so they can try to boost their non-conference RPI/BPI rating.

If Sycamore fans want to stay in the Valley, there is only one acceptable scenario -- you have to drop football and fund basketball to be competitive with the private schools OR you had better find enough alumni that will donate on a yearly basis to make that possible. Do we have a group of alumni that will donate $1-1.5m per year? We couldn't get "die hards" from here to kick in $20 because they hate Greg Lansing so what do you think that answer is?

I'm not interested in hanging around the Valley and being a lower tier program that has a couple good seasons every 10 years. You certainly won't build an organic fan base doing that, either.


----------



## Southgrad07

That's why i've come to the tough realization that football needs to go for our basketball  and athletic brand to even have any chance to prosper imo..In an ideal world we'd have money to redo hc and get a new stadium..that aint happening folks. Continuing on this road does nothing but handcuff our entire athletic department going forward..But hey that's just me from the peanut gallery


----------



## 4Q_iu

4Q_iu said:


> So... given that the MVC is "somewhat" of a hybrid conference... some FCS football, some non-scholie football AND some No Football...
> 
> Which 'better teams' could the Valley have added?



Agree, all of the "better" schools have been choosing other "better" conferences


----------



## 4Q_iu

Southgrad07 said:


> That's why i've come to the tough realization that football needs to go for our basketball  and athletic brand to even have any chance to prosper imo..In an ideal world we'd have money to redo hc and get a new stadium..that aint happening folks. Continuing on this road does nothing but handcuff our entire athletic department going forward..But hey that's just me from the peanut gallery



Agree, it would hurt but the $$$ simply are not available.  By dropping football we can restore 3-4 sports that the Valley sponsors/sanctions and likely STILL save $$


----------



## Bally #50

Like I said less forcefully a bit earlier....... it's a FUCKING mess and I am afraid Clink and Dan have their work cut out for them. We've been hashing this out (the genius's at Sycamore Pride) for years and what have come up with? SQUAT~ Oh woe is me.


----------



## bigsportsfan

tjbison said:


> NDSU has highly rated Pharmacy and Engineering
> 
> :biggrin:



TJ, do you think you guys would jump to MVC if asked, or would other Dakotas have to be in package deal?


----------



## tjbison

bigsportsfan said:


> TJ, do you think you guys would jump to MVC if asked, or would other Dakotas have to be in package deal?



We are not tied to any other school, I am pretty confident we would go alone if needed, I think the MVC if going NW would be idiotic to take just one and not both of the XDSU schools.

Now some say SDSU might not want to leave and they may very well not be able to leave as I believe in SD the Board of Regents needs to approve moves and they may make the SD schools stay together..who knows

I already voiced my opinion to powers that if I hear they were offered and declined it won't be good for the future of contributions from. Many donors I know ready to increase support in a better league


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bally #47 said:


> Like I said less forcefully a bit earlier....... it's a FUCKING mess and I am afraid Clink and Dan have their work cut out for them. We've been hashing this out (the genius's at Sycamore Pride) for years and what have come up with? SQUAT~ Oh woe is me.



I guess that's your opinion, but I think we've successfully hashed this out. We've identified and outlined what State's options are over the last several years of discussions. Kudos to us -- we've been a helluva lot more proactive than Elgin and the MVC has been. Here is my brief summary of the options I see:

1) Do nothing. Continue to remain underfunded compared to our conference mates in both the MVC and MVFC. See occasional success every decade or so but remain the conference layup (pun intended) more often than not.

2) Drop football and dedicate funds to basketball program. Become one of the higher funded programs in the Valley and hope to see a similar success trajectory to a Saint Louis, Dayton or Butler. 

3) Keep football and "downgrade" to the Ohio Valley where we'll be paired with similarly sized institutions that fund FCS football and have athletic budgets comparable to ours.

4) Drop football and "downgrade" to the Horizon or Summit where we'll be paired with similarly basketball budgeted schools. If 50% of football expenses are converted to hoops, become one of top funded schools in either of those leagues. 

5) Form a coup with fellow MVFC schools and demand the Valley becomes a unified sports conference. Keep in mind, we'll still be the lowest funded school in the conference by anywhere from a $2m to $12m difference. Wish Bradley, Drake, Evansville and Loyola the best as they find new digs.


----------



## Coach

Jason Svoboda said:


> I guess that's your opinion, but I think we've successfully hashed this out. We've identified and outlined what State's options are over the last several years of discussions. Kudos to us -- we've been a helluva lot more proactive than Elgin and the MVC has been. Here is my brief summary of the options I see:
> 
> 3) Keep football and "downgrade" to the Ohio Valley where we'll be paired with similarly sized institutions that fund FCS football and have athletic budgets comparable to ours.



My vote is for #3. And it may not actually be a downgrade anymore. The Valley is overrated and trying to live on its past. The current Valley does not even resemble Valley history of the past.  Those teams are all gone......Cincinnati, Louisville, Tulsa, New Mexico State, Creighton recently & Wichita soon to be.......that is all past history. What history is left.......1979 is filed under ancient history now.


----------



## Southgrad07

Anything but 1 and 3...Preferably 2 or 4...Listen, if we had a quality stadium in place and a half way decent football following i'd be willing to listen to people who want to continue on with football...But this isn't 1975 anymore and $$$$$ matters more than ever before in college athletics...Building a new stadium or continuing to put expensive ban-aids on a bullet hole is not an option for a mid major like us. The support is just not there and won't ever be there..Hell as Jason has showed in the past we can't even find a handful of football alums to donate a dollar to the program every year. People in the grand scheme just do not care about FCS football and even if we had a consistent winner im not sure with our demographic and alumni base we would ever be able to even break even... Look at how dominant NDSU has been over the last 15 years in FB and their about as respected as PU football is on a nation wide scale...Then you look at the Wichita or Dayton and those programs are much more respected and well known with similar success...Why??? Because people care and pay attention to D1 basketball...I know that hurts some feelings...but it's time to get some shit done around here.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> I guess that's your opinion, but I think we've successfully hashed this out. We've identified and outlined what State's options are over the last several years of discussions. Kudos to us -- we've been a helluva lot more proactive than Elgin and the MVC has been. Here is my brief summary of the options I see:
> 
> 1) Do nothing. Continue to remain underfunded compared to our conference mates in both the MVC and MVFC. See occasional success every decade or so but remain the conference layup (pun intended) more often than not.
> 
> 2) Drop football and dedicate funds to basketball program. Become one of the higher funded programs in the Valley and hope to see a similar success trajectory to a Saint Louis, Dayton or Butler.
> 
> 3) Keep football and "downgrade" to the Ohio Valley where we'll be paired with similarly sized institutions that fund FCS football and have athletic budgets comparable to ours.
> 
> 4) Drop football and "downgrade" to the Horizon or Summit where we'll be paired with similarly basketball budgeted schools. If 50% of football expenses are converted to hoops, become one of top funded schools in either of those leagues.
> 
> 5) Form a coup with fellow MVFC schools and demand the Valley becomes a unified sports conference. Keep in mind, we'll still be the lowest funded school in the conference by anywhere from a $2m to $12m difference. Wish Bradley, Drake, Evansville and Loyola the best as they find new digs.



Best to Worst Choices

# 2 -- face reality and remain in a better conference with more historic peers, rivals
# 4 -- Horizon before the Summit
# 3 -- a step backwards
# 5 -- the most difficult
# 1 -- continue the slow death


----------



## 4Q_iu

Coach said:


> My vote is for #3. And it may not actually be a downgrade anymore. The Valley is overrated and trying to live on its past. The current Valley does not even resemble Valley history of the past.  Those teams are all gone......Cincinnati, Louisville, Tulsa, New Mexico State, Creighton recently & Wichita soon to be.......that is all past history. What history is left.......1979 is filed under ancient history now.



memphis had better history in the Valley than new mex state... no?


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> I guess that's your opinion, but I think we've successfully hashed this out. We've identified and outlined what State's options are over the last several years of discussions. Kudos to us -- we've been a helluva lot more proactive than Elgin and the MVC has been. Here is my brief summary of the options I see:
> 
> 1) Do nothing. Continue to remain underfunded compared to our conference mates in both the MVC and MVFC. See occasional success every decade or so but remain the conference layup (pun intended) more often than not.
> 
> 2) Drop football and dedicate funds to basketball program. Become one of the higher funded programs in the Valley and hope to see a similar success trajectory to a Saint Louis, Dayton or Butler.
> 
> 3) Keep football and "downgrade" to the Ohio Valley where we'll be paired with similarly sized institutions that fund FCS football and have athletic budgets comparable to ours.
> 
> 4) Drop football and "downgrade" to the Horizon or Summit where we'll be paired with similarly basketball budgeted schools. If 50% of football expenses are converted to hoops, become one of top funded schools in either of those leagues.
> 
> 5) Form a coup with fellow MVFC schools and demand the Valley becomes a unified sports conference. Keep in mind, we'll still be the lowest funded school in the conference by anywhere from a $2m to $12m difference. Wish Bradley, Drake, Evansville and Loyola the best as they find new digs.



All I said is that it is MESS. I would have to think you'd agree with that. I didn't think it was a right or wrong thing. I could have no problem adding an option 6 and 7 to that and I imagine others would too. I have never been a proponent of the MVC and it's clear it is on a quick fall downward after WSU drops out and of course, Creighton dropping out (and Loyola coming in). Of the 5 listed, I suppose I would take 3 but in a dream world, as I have stated many times on here,  I would like to merge with 1AA teams more concentrated in our area and downgraded MAC schools who would be full sports schools. Sadly, I don't think we will have time to do it. 

I have ZERO confidence in the MVC, specifically Elgin, and I think they have waited too long. Our options are varied and good ones and all are possible, but I do not want to give up football, nor do I want to stand still either. As I said, I have confidence in Clink and Dr. B. but this is a big situation and one that needs to be worked on NOW. If they are not, we are in deep shit. I'll take 3, and I do think it is the most likely to occur, but I hope they do their due diligence and at least try to think out off the box. I did one thing in that statement you quoted, I finally said the work FUCK. That's a first I think.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Bally #47 said:


> All I said is that it is MESS. I would have to think you'd agree with that. I didn't think it was a right or wrong thing. I could have no problem adding an option 6 and 7 to that and I imagine others would too. I have never been a proponent of the MVC and it's clear it is on a quick fall downward after WSU drops out and of course, Creighton dropping out (and Loyola coming in). Of the 5 listed, I suppose I would take 3 but in a dream world, as I have stated many times on here,  *I would like to merge with 1AA teams more concentrated in our area and downgraded MAC schools who would be full sports schools.* Sadly, I don't think we will have time to do it...



Examples of the 1AA schools more concentrated to us

& 

downgraded MAC schools


will YOU downgrade the MAC schools? the NCAA?  or each school voluntarily?


----------



## Bally #50

4Q_iu said:


> Examples of the 1AA schools more concentrated to us
> 
> &
> 
> downgraded MAC schools
> 
> 
> will YOU downgrade the MAC schools? the NCAA?  or each school voluntarily?



Of course, I will not. The NCAA should, and the MAC _might_. I personally think they will ultimately break up or join (or merge) with other conferences. IMO, it is obvious that the lower echelon of MAC schools are not qualifying by the rules of 1A FOOTBALL, and all of the schools are losing money. The kicker, they may have profited by the MAC schools in those silly new bowls but not all do. Anyway, it is what it is. If it does, as I have said, take the best of the MVC and OVC and pick up another one or two and BINGO. No guarantees by me, that's for sure. At this point (and always before) It is my dream. As I said earlier, I doubt they have time enough to even attempt to pull it off. Fun to dream.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Bally #47 said:


> Of course, I will not. The NCAA should, and the MAC _might_. I personally think they will ultimately break up or join (or merge) with other conferences. IMO, it is obvious that the lower echelon of MAC schools are not qualifying by the rules of 1A FOOTBALL, and all of the schools are losing money. The kicker, they may have profited by the MAC schools in those silly new bowls but not all do. Anyway, it is what it is. If it does, as I have said, take the best of the MVC and OVC and pick up another one or two and BINGO. No guarantees by me, that's for sure. At this point (and always before) It is my dream. As I said earlier, I doubt they have time enough to even attempt to pull it off. Fun to dream.




So... you don't have a list of those schools or just pick the 'lower echelon' MAC?  By athletics?  Sports $$ or academics?

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  Bowling Green         18,756                   194 (National)

  Buffalo                  29,850                   99 (National)

  Kent State             30,067                   188 (National)

  Miami                    18,907                   79 (National)

  Ohio                     23,701                   146 (National)

ISU-Muncee           20,113                   176 (National)
 Central Michigan     27,693                   202 (National)

  Eastern Michigan     22,974                   RNP (National)

  Northern Illinois       25,313                    214 (National)
Toledo                   21,594                   RNP (National)

  Western Michigan     25,045                   194 (National)

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## Bally #50

With all due respect 4Q, I am not here to get in a pissing match. I was talking hyperbole at best but hoping we might pull in BSU, EMU and maybe one more away when the MAC breaks up (also an opinion). We are or would be competitive in football and better than those schools in most other sports. Listen, it might be a stretch but I do think it could be done. I have said it was dream but it would not be impossible.


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## 4Q_iu

Bally #47 said:


> With all due respect 4Q, I am not here to get in a pissing match. I was talking hyperbole at best but hoping we might pull in BSU, EMU and maybe one more away when the MAC breaks up (also an opinion). We are or would be competitive in football and better than those schools in most other sports. Listen, it might be a stretch but I do think it could be done. I have said it was dream but it would not be impossible.



Im simply curious which schools you envision in a new 'all sports' conference that would the Fightin' Sycamores.


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## Bally #50

4Q_iu said:


> Im simply curious which schools you envision in a new 'all sports' conference that would the Fightin' Sycamores.



I've stated them before more than once. But at this point, any of the MAC that could swallow their pride and face the reality. Ball State in particular would ALWAYS be my first choice. We would be competitive in all sports and in their case, I don't think size manners. MAC, OVC, at least the contiguous state MVC schools. As I have also said, my guess is that the fireworks will go off when WSU and a few others start jumping ship. Remember, ISUr is considering a 1A move as well as MSU. GAME ON.  I hope the MVC is ready (or WE are)!


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## Jason Svoboda

Bally #47 said:


> I've stated them before more than once. But at this point, any of the MAC that could swallow their pride and face the reality. Ball State in particular would ALWAYS be my first choice. We would be competitive in all sports and in their case, I don't think size manners. MAC, OVC, at least the contiguous state MVC schools. As I have also said, my guess is that the fireworks will go off when WSU and a few others start jumping ship. Remember, ISUr is considering a 1A move as well as MSU. GAME ON.  I hope the MVC is ready (or WE are)!


Instead, the MAC has decided to end football on Saturday in November in favor of all weeknight games. Their leadership is as clueless as Elgin and the MVC. If you thought attendance was already awful, now they're making sure alumni can't come to games. 

http://thecomeback.com/ncaa/mac-football-november-saturdays-weeknights.html

Keep in mind that teams leaving the MAC would lose out on a reported $670k yearly media rights payment and money games for FBS schools usually pay about double of what FCS schools command. For example, several of their schools got $1-1.5m to play against SEC schools. They'd also lose the pool of potential opponents from those conferences that have said they'll no longer play FCS schools.

http://www.hustlebelt.com/2014/8/19/6045303/explaining-the-new-mac-espn-tv-deal

As much as I think it should be considered by MAC schools, I just don't ever see them swallowing their pride and actually doing it. Additionally, it would take years to happen. Just not a realistic option to discuss at this point in time.


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## nwi stater

You know it's getting old of dropping football or reducing it. We have hopefully a new good coach and staff. Give them a chance to do their thing. I'm proud to be a tree at a great university not some little college!☝️&#55356;&#57139;


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## Jason Svoboda

nwi stater said:


> You know it's getting old of dropping football or reducing it. We have hopefully a new good coach and staff. Give them a chance to do their thing. I'm proud to be a tree at a great university not some little college!☝️��


Have you and 499 other alums made your $10k donation to the Varsity Club for the year to make it sustainable? 

We need 500 alumni to chip in $10,000 a year for it to break even, or 5,000 alumni to chip in $1,000, or 50,000 alumni to chip in $100, or 500,000 alumni to chip in $10, or 5,000,000 alumni to chip in a buck. Do you see the magnitude of scale we're talking about here? The football program has a budget of 2-3x of the basketball program. When you toss in the fact you have to provide a scholly for scholly match to satisfy Title IX reasons, that multiplier jumps. 

This isn't about giving a program a chance. If you don't have season tickets and aren't spending a lot at concession stands and aren't making a donation to the football program each and every year, you fall into the same category as most of our students and alums. It's one thing to say "give it a chance" but those words are hollow fucking rhetoric unless you're making a financial commitment to make those words mean something. Nobody here WANTS the program to go away. The fact of the matter is most of us understand the program is a financial drain on all of our other athletics programs. So spare me of words... students, alumni and fans need to pony up or shut up.

I'll pledge $1000 to the football program right now if you do the same and can find 4,998 others to join us. Deal?


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## SycamoreStateofMind

nwi stater said:


> You know it's getting old of dropping football or reducing it. We have hopefully a new good coach and staff. Give them a chance to do their thing. I'm proud to be a tree at a great university not some little college!☝️&#55356;&#57139;



If your tired of that dialogue then two things are going to have to happen and they are one in the same. The University is going to have to make a long term commitment to the program - I believe new lights and eventually a new playing surface suggests as much. Donors are going to have to step up - that still hasn't happened. Until those 2 things happen then you better get use to it being brought up.


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## Southgrad07

Jason Svoboda said:


> Have you and 499 other alums made your $10k donation to the Varsity Club for the year to make it sustainable?
> 
> We need 500 alumni to chip in $10,000 a year for it to break even, or 5,000 alumni to chip in $1,000, or 50,000 alumni to chip in $100, or 500,000 alumni to chip in $10, or 5,000,000 alumni to chip in a buck. Do you see the magnitude of scale we're talking about here? The football program has a budget of 2-3x of the basketball program. When you toss in the fact you have to provide a scholly for scholly match to satisfy Title IX reasons, that multiplier jumps.
> 
> This isn't about giving a program a chance. If you don't have season tickets and aren't spending a lot at concession stands and aren't making a donation to the football program each and every year, you fall into the same category as most of our students and alums. It's one thing to say "give it a chance" but those words are hollow fucking rhetoric unless you're making a financial commitment to make those words mean something. Nobody here WANTS the program to go away. The fact of the matter is most of understand the program is a financial drain on all of our other athletics programs. So spare me of words... students, alumni and fans need to pony up or shut up.
> 
> I'll pledge $1000 to the football program right now if you do the same and can find 4,998 others to join us. Deal?



That is said better than I ever could...so ditto

Only thoughts i'd add is to SSOM point of the university needing to show true commitment to the long term future of the program...I'd add that until the HC project get fully funded and is up and functioning nobody can seriously bring up upgrading football facilities..If the program that is best supported and well known can't get a new arena it desperately needs with 37.5 mil state gift wrapped $$ attached then how the hell can you justify pumping money of that magnitude into anything else. 

Also Wichita dropped football in 1986...I'd go out on a limb and say their other programs were wealthier for it (someone else can research that) and  thus could do more to compete on a national scale.... Now i'm not implying we could fund to any degree of what they could due to their big donors (Koch brothers) and the fact that they don't have any competition for support from pro teams in Kansas. What I am saying is there is a direction correlation at the mid major basketball level between schools that sponsor football and those that don't. It is very very very difficult to fund and maintain a high quality FCS football program and a competitive basketball program. You better have an amazing fan base with some deep pockets and we all know that is not the case here....We do have a ton of people in the terre haute and surrounding areas who are passionate about sports and are fair weather fans...Having an underfunded FCS football team and way way underfunded MVC basketball program is not the answer to getting those fans to spend $$$ and time on ISU.


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## Jason Svoboda

Southgrad07 said:


> Also Wichita dropped football in 1986...I'd go out on a limb and say their other programs were wealthier for it (someone else can research that) and  thus could do more to compete on a national scale.... Now i'm not implying we could fund to any degree of what they could due to their big donors (Koch brothers) and the fact that they don't have any competition for support from pro teams in Kansas. What I am saying is there is a direction correlation at the mid major basketball level between schools that sponsor football and those that don't.


Their fans have said as much on ShockerNet and MVCFans. They credit dropping football as one of the catalysts for success. Here are a couple from their folks over at MVCFans from yesterday:



> They dropped football because they didn't want to throw money at a football program that would not be competing at the highest level. They chose to focus on basketball and attempt to excel in that at the highest level. Basketball did not become the primary sport at WSU. It has been since the 1950's.





> WSU dropped football because it was bankrupting the athletic department. We were in debt past a mill in 1986, which would be several mill today. It was impossible to raise money from donors or the community for a program that wasn't very interesting, played in a league no one cared about, and was typically badly embarrassed when playing good teams for a payday.
> 
> We also had a "who cares" athletic director, and a President who seemed to hate the fact that WSU even had an athletic department. That President was in the office until 1993, which helps explain the state of WSU basketball during the '90's.



One of them also said the study Wichita State had done last year to see about adding football back basically reaffirmed there was no interest. This is why I think you see them jumping at the AAC invite now. Now if they go to the AAC and dominate and the Big 12 comes calling, it would likely be a different story knowing they could subsidize football with the Big 12 media money and basically pull a Kansas. 

http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4666&start=408


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## 4Q_iu

Southgrad07 said:


> That is said better than I ever could...so ditto
> 
> Only thoughts i'd add is to SSOM point of the university needing to show true commitment to the long term future of the program...I'd add that until the HC project get fully funded and is up and functioning nobody can seriously bring up upgrading football facilities..If the program that is best supported and well known can't get a new arena it desperately needs with 37.5 mil state gift wrapped $$ attached then how the hell can you justify pumping money of that magnitude into anything else.
> 
> Also Wichita dropped football in 1986...I'd go out on a limb and say their other programs were wealthier for it (someone else can research that) and  thus could do more to compete on a national scale.... Now i'm not implying we could fund to any degree of what they could due to their big donors (Koch brothers) and the fact that they don't have any competition for support from pro teams in Kansas. What I am saying is there is a direction correlation at the mid major basketball level between schools that sponsor football and those that don't. It is very very very difficult to fund and maintain a high quality FCS football program and a competitive basketball program. You better have an amazing fan base with some deep pockets and we all know that is not the case here....We do have a ton of people in the terre haute and surrounding areas who are passionate about sports and are fair weather fans...Having an underfunded FCS football team and way way underfunded MVC basketball program is not the answer to getting those fans to spend $$$ and time on ISU.




Wichita City is the 3rd choice in that non-major pro sports state...   they succeed b/c of NO football & the Koch Bros. $$$   and while slimy marshall deserves credit for much of their recent success; Mark Turgeon deserves a fair amount of credit as well; he righted the ship following a decade of bad to mediocre basketball.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> Their fans have said as much on ShockerNet and MVCFans. They credit dropping football as one of the catalysts for success. Here are a couple from their folks over at MVCFans from yesterday:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of them also said the study Wichita State had done last year to see about adding football back basically reaffirmed there was no interest. This is why I think you see them jumping at the AAC invite now. Now if they go to the AAC and dominate and the Big 12 comes calling, it would likely be a different story knowing they could subsidize football with the Big 12 media money and basically pull a Kansas.
> 
> http://www.mvcfans.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4666&start=408





Do you really believe Kansas & Kansas State would support the addition of Wichita City into the Big 12?

I'd be shocked -- I think the Big 12 will poach current AAC members, Mtn West members before they EVERY think of mentioning an idea to maybe talk about the possibility of studying the Wichita City question


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> Do you really believe Kansas & Kansas State would support the addition of Wichita City into the Big 12?
> 
> I'd be shocked -- I think the Big 12 will poach current AAC members, Mtn West members before they EVERY think of mentioning an idea to maybe talk about the possibility of studying the Wichita City question


I have no idea. I've seen a lot of stuff over the course of the last decade in college sports that I never thought I'd see.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Just one more thing to add for those of you that meander in if the dollars don't make sense:

Since our entrance into the Valley, our football team is 120-230 overall (34.3% winning percentage) and 61-148 in conference play, a svelte 29.2% winning percentage. In hoops, we're 554-642 overall (46.3% winning percentage) and 277-389 in Valley play, an equally stout 41.6% winning percentage. 

Do you guys really want to spend the next 5, 10 or 20 years watching .292/.343 football and .415/.463 hoop?


----------



## Coach

Jason Svoboda said:


> Just one more thing to add for those of you that meander in if the dollars don't make sense:
> 
> Since our entrance into the Valley, our football team is 120-230 overall (34.3% winning percentage) and 61-148 in conference play, a svelte 29.2% winning percentage. In hoops, we're 554-642 overall (46.3% winning percentage) and 277-389 in Valley play, an equally stout 41.6% winning percentage.
> 
> Do you guys really want to spend the next 5, 10 or 20 years watching .292/.343 football and .415/.463 hoop?



been there, done that.............have become more & more intolerant.....if you can't tell


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Coach said:


> been there, done that.............have become more & more intolerant.....if you can't tell



To be fair you've become intolerant of/at the wrong things. 

You want to win (like all of us), so you want Lansing fired (which costs money). To bring in another coach that will step into the same sorry financial and underfunded situation that Lansing was in and the coach before that and the coach before that. To that point, you can be intolerant but the answer certainly doesn't scream fire the head coach.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Coach said:


> been there, done that.............have become more & more intolerant.....if you can't tell


So have you mailed a donation in yet? Because you still think this is the coaches fault whereas it is a program support failure -- that's the me and you of the equation.

EDIT: Lansing's coaching records at 120-108 overall (52.6% winning percentage) and 65-61 in Valley play, a 51.6% winning percentage. That is a 10% better conference winning percentage and 6.3% better overall winning percentage compared to all other Sycamore coaches in Valley play. Those numbers would be even higher if you took out the Larry Bird seasons which are statistical anomalies. All while having the lowest basketball budget in the Valley where he can't even buy teams to come in and play at Hulman Center.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> So have you mailed a donation in yet? Because you still think this is the coaches fault whereas it is a program support failure -- that's the me and you of the equation.
> 
> EDIT: Lansing's coaching records at 120-108 overall (52.6% winning percentage) and 65-61 in Valley play, a 51.6% winning percentage. That is a 10% better conference winning percentage and 6.3% better overall winning percentage compared to all other Sycamore coaches in Valley play. Those numbers would be even higher if you took out the Larry Bird seasons which are statistical anomalies.




Truer words were rarely spoken...

I just looked at the NCAA scholie 'limits'...

FCS football is 63 scholarships; IF football were ever dropped, the Trees could restore wrestling, men's golf, tennis, add soccer and still SAVE the $$$ for 34 scholarships.

Golf and Tennis are both 4.5 scholie programs
Wrestling and Soccer are both 9.9...

food for thought


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

4Q_iu said:


> Truer words were rarely spoken...
> 
> I just looked at the NCAA scholie 'limits'...
> 
> FCS football is 63 scholarships; IF football were ever dropped, the Trees could restore wrestling, men's golf, tennis, add soccer and still SAVE the $$$ for 34 scholarships.
> 
> Golf and Tennis are both 4.5 scholie programs
> Wrestling and Soccer are both 9.9...
> 
> food for thought



A program or 2 would have to be added I do believe to stay at the D1 required threshold and those would be the ones that probably made the most sense.


----------



## 4Q_iu

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> A program or 2 would have to be added I do believe to stay at the D1 required threshold and those would be the ones that probably made the most sense.



We'd have to add at least one to maintain Div 1 status; I'd advocate adding as many men's teams possible to maintain as many scholarship opportunities as possible and increase our ability to compete in as many MVC sports as possible.

wrestling isn't an MVC sport BUT we could follow Northern Iowa as a MAC affiliate


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> A program or 2 would have to be added I do believe to stay at the D1 required threshold and those would be the ones that probably made the most sense.


Here are a list of the requirements:


Division I member institutions have to sponsor at least seven sports for men and seven for women (or six for men and eight for women) with two team sports for each gender.
Each playing season has to be represented by each gender as well. There are contest and participant minimums for each sport, as well as scheduling criteria.
For sports other than football and basketball, Division I schools must play 100 percent of the minimum number of contests against Division I opponents -- anything over the minimum number of games has to be 50 percent Division I. Men's and women's basketball teams have to play all but two games against Division I teams; for men, they must play one-third of all their contests in the home arena.
Schools that have football are classified as Football Bowl Subdivision (formerly Division I-A) or NCAA Football Championship Subdivision (formerly Division I-AA). Football Bowl Subdivision schools are usually fairly elaborate programs. Football Bowl Subdivision teams have to meet minimum attendance requirements (average 15,000 people in actual or paid attendance per home game), which must be met once in a rolling two-year period. NCAA Football Championship Subdivision teams do not need to meet minimum attendance requirements.
Division I schools must meet minimum financial aid awards for their athletics program, and there are maximum financial aid awards for each sport that a Division I school cannot exceed.
http://www.ncaa.org/about/who-we-ar...nces-and-history-multidivision-classification


----------



## Coach

"So have you mailed a donation in yet? Because you still think this is the coaches fault whereas it is a program support failure -- that's the me and you of the equation."

Thought it over and nope. Been there, done that many times over the years.  Think I will send some dollars down to Bloomington soon.  Lots of hope, expectations & excitement down that way for the future after they made a move. All doom and gloom and depressive in Terre Haute waiting for next year and the same ole same ole.


----------



## sycamore tuff

Coach said:


> "So have you mailed a donation in yet? Because you still think this is the coaches fault whereas it is a program support failure -- that's the me and you of the equation."
> 
> Thought it over and nope. Been there, done that many times over the years.  *Think I will send some dollars down to Bloomington soon.*  Lots of hope, expectations & excitement down that way for the future after they made a move. All doom and gloom and depressive in Terre Haute waiting for next year and the same ole same ole.



I hope you were joking.  If so you are a lousy comedian.  I don't find it one bit funny and I grew up in that little town.


----------



## Coach

You called me.............joking about sending them any money :nudgewink:


----------



## Westbadenboy

All this talk about money money money is certainly needed.  And I think Mallory's hiring represents the best, last gasp at maintaining ISU football --- at least at the FCS level -- he's got 2 -- 3 years to produce consistent winners and much bigger crowds.  Clink has to produce much bigger support from alumni and former players in that same time period.  And if those things happen we've got to be prepared for whatever big changes occur with the MVCF, the MAC, etc.  All that could be a good thing.  By the way, just as a sidelight, its high time the administration made a big push to campus and alumni organizations that they get their folks out of Tent City and into the stadium for Homecoming.  Lots of folks who are not "football fans" go to games at their old school on Homecoming.  If all the above does not happen, then football at the FCS level is (and should be gone).
But with all this talk about money lets be clear -- coaches or players fault doesn't matter ---- we have had basketball teams over the past 10-12 years that have underacheieved ..........big time.  We have driven away fans with terrible atmosphere at Hulman Center, stupid in-fighting, etc  etc.
We have not had the best talent in the MVC but there have been several years where we absolutely should have picked up 3 - 5 more victories.  Think about the difference between 16 - 14 and 21 - 9.  That alone probably puts 2500 more butts in the stands.  And the horrible way we've ended seasons, getting blown out in Arch Madness and the NIT games -- no excuse.  You win a game or two in those NIT years (and we had the ability to do that) puts another 1000 or so in the stands.
So lets keep in mind that one of the reasons for the our low level of spending is due to very disappointing seasons on the floor.  A school like Bradley may have more outside support, but over the past several years (maybe not the last 2 or so) they have put 8000 -- 10,000 butts in their arena.
Play your butt off, play smart, and play like that ALL season ....every game ........and you probably are drawing 3000 more in Hulman Center and have another million $$$$$ to spend.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Westbadenboy said:


> All this talk about money money money is certainly needed.  And I think Mallory's hiring represents the best, last gasp at maintaining ISU football --- at least at the FCS level -- he's got 2 -- 3 years to produce consistent winners and much bigger crowds.  Clink has to produce much bigger support from alumni and former players in that same time period.  And if those things happen we've got to be prepared for whatever big changes occur with the MVCF, the MAC, etc.  All that could be a good thing.  By the way, just as a sidelight, its high time the administration made a big push to campus and alumni organizations that they get their folks out of Tent City and into the stadium for Homecoming.  Lots of folks who are not "football fans" go to games at their old school on Homecoming.  If all the above does not happen, then football at the FCS level is (and should be gone).
> But with all this talk about money lets be clear -- coaches or players fault doesn't matter ---- we have had basketball teams over the past 10-12 years that have underacheieved ..........big time.  We have driven away fans with terrible atmosphere at Hulman Center, stupid in-fighting, etc  etc.
> We have not had the best talent in the MVC but there have been several years where we absolutely should have picked up 3 - 5 more victories.  Think about the difference between 16 - 14 and 21 - 9.  That alone probably puts 2500 more butts in the stands.  And the horrible way we've ended seasons, getting blown out in Arch Madness and the NIT games -- no excuse.  You win a game or two in those NIT years (and we had the ability to do that) puts another 1000 or so in the stands.
> So lets keep in mind that one of the reasons for the our low level of spending is due to very disappointing seasons on the floor.  A school like Bradley may have more outside support, but over the past several years (maybe not the last 2 or so) they have put 8000 -- 10,000 butts in their arena.
> Play your butt off, play smart, and play like that ALL season ....every game ........and you probably are drawing 3000 more in Hulman Center and have another million $$$$$ to spend.


I'm going to spare the football part of your response but going in on the basketball discussion. Whether you believe the teams have underachieved or not is a matter of your opinion. Once could look at it and say they overachieved based on the talent level and that coaches got all they could out of low level recruits, JUCO and college transfers that didn't pan out at their first stop. So that is all based on your frame of reference and highly, highly subjective. Our best years out of the last 10 have been where a walk-on point guard from Terre Haute matured out of nowhere into a program icon. That was lighting in a bottle and not something you can just replicate whenever you desire. 

Over the last decade, Indiana State has played right at .500 ball overall and in conference play despite being underfunded in every one of those years. In 5 of those years, we had teams above .500 and our highest attendance came in a year that we went 15-16. Also, you mention about putting 8000-10000 butts in the seats and I content those days are long gone. Did you know that Indiana State was in the Top 100 in college basketball attendance in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014? The highest attendance out of any of those years was 5946. 






Also, I'm about over the atmosphere comments for the Hulman Center. I've been to games at other mid-major schools and by in large they are exactly the same. Same cheezy timeouts games, same music, same concessions and the only real differentiator is crowd size. When crowds are large, the game is more electric, even if the teams aren't the best. The problem is, even in our good years, we're going to see a couple crowds of 8000 and the rest will be 50-60% capacity which makes the arena look empty. 

So, going back to the elephant in the room that people want to keep dancing around is program resources. It's not Shocker that Wichita State putting $6m into their hoops program allows them to pay an elite coach and staff, allows them to recruit coast-to-coast, buy games into Koch which allowed them to build a brand. That was done through their massive attendance and donor support even when they were down. They put together a vision for Shocker hoops, asked their fans and alumni to donate and then made it happen. So we can keep typing back and forth all day on this topic but at the end of the day, if us fans don't step up, donate and then demand more, we're going to continue to sink in the abyss of the Valley. 

I've asked everyone that wanted to dodge the question about money so I'm not going to let you off the hook, either. Have you made a donation to the basketball program? Coach said he wouldn't but would rather send his cash to Bloomington. Several others haven't responded. What about you?


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> I'm going to spare the football part of your response but going in on the basketball discussion. Whether you believe the teams have underachieved or not is a matter of your opinion. Once could look at it and say they overachieved based on the talent level and that coaches got all they could out of low level recruits, JUCO and college transfers that didn't pan out at their first stop. So that is all based on your frame of reference and highly, highly subjective. Our best years out of the last 10 have been where a walk-on point guard from Terre Haute matured out of nowhere into a program icon. That was lighting in a bottle and not something you can just replicate whenever you desire.



agree, agree, agree    though at times, surprised they've won 120 games over last 7 seasons given the resources



Jason Svoboda said:


> ...Also, I'm about over the atmosphere comments for the Hulman Center. I've been to games at other mid-major schools and by in large they are exactly the same. Same cheezy timeouts games, same music, same concessions and the only real differentiator is crowd size. When crowds are large, the game is more electric, even if the teams aren't the best. The problem is, even in our good years, we're going to see a couple crowds of 8000 and the rest will be 50-60% capacity which makes the arena look empty.



Maybe they can subtly decrease Hulman by 1,500 seats with the renovation... 



Jason Svoboda said:


> I've asked everyone that wanted to dodge the question about money so I'm not going to let you off the hook, either. Have you made a donation to the basketball program? Coach said he wouldn't but would rather send his cash to Bloomington. Several others haven't responded. What about you?



direct donation?  no

no idea how ISU divvied my 2016-17 Varsity Club membership among sports...


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> direct donation?  no
> 
> no idea how ISU divvied my 2016-17 Varsity Club membership among sports...


Yeah, that is what I hear a lot from folks. You just gotta be specific on the donation form. There is also a comments box where you can get even more specific. 

https://www.applyweb.com/public/contribute?DB_OEM_ID=15200&s=isusaf


----------



## 4Q_iu

Thanks -- so they divide for all.sports, not surprising...    I won't be renewing until July or August.... Have to see what I can find by then to add to men's bball on top of standard donation


----------



## lakesbison

bigsportsfan said:


> TJ, do you think you guys would jump to MVC if asked, or would other Dakotas have to be in package deal?



NDSU would go alone,  zero need for sdsu.  

NDSU is in Fargo, 175,000 population, 1 of fastest growing cities in usa, tons of upside, new NDSU BB arena,


----------



## Coach

Plain & simple: Wichita=Koch
Terre Haute's big-time benefactor's name is on the Hulman Center and that was a long time ago.  If there is another one out there he/she is well-hidden.
Dream all you want about attendance revenue (barely enough to pay the ushers the last 1/2 of the season) & don't count on it getting any better soon.
A nice effort to bring in funds via $20 donations but its going to take a hell of a lot of $20 bills. More than the number of fans that regularly attend games.
Bottom line - no quick fixes unless a BIG TIME donor comes on board. Like to see it but good luck with that.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Coach said:


> A nice effort to bring in funds via $20 donations but its going to take a hell of a lot of $20 bills. More than the number of fans that regularly attend games.



A lot to digest from your post but I'm going to focus on this little bit of knowledge you dropped on us right here and dissect the shit out of it. What you saw on here with the $20 donations had nothing and I mean nothing to do with actually raising money. It was done for the principle of the matter and your so caught up in your own shit that you failed to realize it. Jason did just what he intended on doing with his $20 campaign. 

In case the principle of the matter concept is a difficult one for you to grasp: 

- It separated the pretenders from the real fans. 

- It showed ISU brass that this site is filled with more than just fans who call for change, some of us are willing to donate are own hard earned money to try and help the cause. 

- It showed how quickly donations can add up if you simply just ask people to give. (Something ISU has fallen short on over the years) 

But thank you very much for explaining how far $20 will really take us.


----------



## Westbadenboy

Yes  Jason I join the Varsity Club almost every year and make several drives to Terre Haute a year to see games

AND my point was that I agree with almost all the money talk,

BUT also add 3 - 5 victories and subtract 3 - 5 loses to that entire column of yours and see what the attendance figures would have looked like.  Add in 2 - 3 NIT wins over those years  and no incredible blow out loses to end seasons.  And I don't give a damm about the atmosphere at Central Arkansas Tech, it would take about $13 to have created a much much better game experience over those years at HC

So my point is still valid


----------



## shootingsycamore

Jason Svoboda said:


> Yeah, that is what I hear a lot from folks. You just gotta be specific on the donation form. There is also a comments box where you can get even more specific.
> 
> https://www.applyweb.com/public/contribute?DB_OEM_ID=15200&s=isusaf



When giving to any institution, it's best to designate where you want your donation/gift to go. It's called an "restricted gift".That way you'll know that your gift will be appied to your specific area of interest and accomplish one's goal. When one gives unsrestricted, it can be used by the institution to match it's internal needs. An example is the Annual Fund, it's unrestricted. Revenue from an Annaul Fund goes to pay the salaries of the Foundations employees, light bills etc. It's part of the revenue stream.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Westbadenboy said:


> Yes  Jason I join the Varsity Club almost every year and make several drives to Terre Haute a year to see games
> 
> AND my point was that I agree with almost all the money talk,
> 
> BUT also add 3 - 5 victories and subtract 3 - 5 loses to that entire column of yours and see what the attendance figures would have looked like.  Add in 2 - 3 NIT wins over those years  and no incredible blow out loses to end seasons.  And I don't give a damm about the atmosphere at Central Arkansas Tech, it would take about $13 to have created a much much better game experience over those years at HC
> 
> So my point is still valid


Good deal. I thought you had based on a conversation we had at the Bally one time but I'm blanket calling everyone out at this point just to try to prove the overall point that Coach is oblivious to (see above). 

Back to the wins drastically affecting attendance... they don't move the needle enough. I posted the attendance numbers above. Wins don't equate with that big of a jump -- those most we've seen is 1000 butts over average. That's a start, but still not enough to have any meaningful financial impact long term. The only way you are going to see 2-3k attendance increase over average is through +8-10 wins or the +3-5 wins and some other form of voodoo. 

This isn't unique to Indiana State, either. Even power conference teams aren't drawing home crowds short of basketball powers. I've been doing research and millennials just aren't attracted to organized sports like previous generations. This is why you see schools spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on fan experience surveys. Hell, even Nick Saban was begging students to stay after halftime at Alabama. Also why I've been a proponent of lowering the seating capacity in Hulman Center to 7000-8000 seats max and adding more millennial friendly options -- more comfortable seats, suites, some sort of bar/grill where you can watch the game while eating, etc.


----------



## Westbadenboy

Good ideas Jason -- and yes we did talk at the Bally once.  Also while my attendance increases may be high the point is to substain them over a period of years -- not just a couple.  Also while most teams lose a game or two during a good season, don't lose 5- 7 games you should win ...........we do that consistently and it turns fans off bigtime.  Finally don't just quit at the end of the year and I'm sorry, but losing games by 25 pts + in Arch Madness or NIT when you should be pretty competitive --- that's just quitting ..........no ifs  ands   or buts


----------



## Coach

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> A lot to digest from your post but I'm going to focus on this little bit of knowledge you dropped on us right here and dissect the shit out of it. What you saw on here with the $20 donations had nothing and I mean nothing to do with actually raising money. It was done for the principle of the matter and your so caught up in your own shit that you failed to realize it. Jason did just what he intended on doing with his $20 campaign.
> 
> In case the principle of the matter concept is a difficult one for you to grasp:
> 
> - It separated the pretenders from the real fans.
> 
> - It showed ISU brass that this site is filled with more than just fans who call for change, some of us are willing to donate are own hard earned money to try and help the cause.
> 
> - It showed how quickly donations can add up if you simply just ask people to give. (Something ISU has fallen short on over the years)
> 
> But thank you very much for explaining how far $20 will really take us.



Thanks to you SSOM for explaining it to me. Sometimes us old-timers just can't grasp the "true meaning" of elections, or any other "newsworthy" stories without some "talking head" explaining it to us . I could have gone all day not knowing what I was saying until you explained it to me....................geez lol.


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> I'm going to spare the football part of your response but going in on the basketball discussion. Whether you believe the teams have underachieved or not is a matter of your opinion. Once could look at it and say they overachieved based on the talent level and that coaches got all they could out of low level recruits, JUCO and college transfers that didn't pan out at their first stop. So that is all based on your frame of reference and highly, highly subjective. Our best years out of the last 10 have been where a walk-on point guard from Terre Haute matured out of nowhere into a program icon. That was lighting in a bottle and not something you can just replicate whenever you desire.
> 
> Over the last decade, Indiana State has played right at .500 ball overall and in conference play despite being underfunded in every one of those years. In 5 of those years, we had teams above .500 and our highest attendance came in a year that we went 15-16. Also, you mention about putting 8000-10000 butts in the seats and I content those days are long gone. Did you know that Indiana State was in the Top 100 in college basketball attendance in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014? The highest attendance out of any of those years was 5946.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I'm about over the atmosphere comments for the Hulman Center. I've been to games at other mid-major schools and by in large they are exactly the same. Same cheezy timeouts games, same music, same concessions and the only real differentiator is crowd size. When crowds are large, the game is more electric, even if the teams aren't the best. The problem is, even in our good years, we're going to see a couple crowds of 8000 and the rest will be 50-60% capacity which makes the arena look empty.
> 
> So, going back to the elephant in the room that people want to keep dancing around is program resources. It's not Shocker that Wichita State putting $6m into their hoops contract allow them to pay an elite coach and staff, allows them to recruit coast-to-coast, buy games into Koch which allowed them to build a brand. That was done through their massive attendance and donor support even when they were down. They put together a vision for Shocker hoops, asked their fans and alumni to donate and then made it happen. So we can keep typing back and forth all day on this topic but at the end of the day, if us fans don't step up, donate and then demand more, we're going to continue to sink in the abyss of the Valley.
> 
> I've asked everyone that wanted to dodge the question about money so I'm not going to let you off the hook, either. Have you made a donation to the basketball program? Coach said he wouldn't but would rather send his cash to Bloomington. Several others haven't responded. What about you?



Facts don't always lie:

It is obvious that when the SYCAMORES played well, the people came in bigger numbers. I was somewhat surprised to see the numbers rise quickly from 2009 to 2014, roughly 4000 to 6000. That is a pretty steep increase. As most of us are sadly aware, the year 6K showed up, the team began to NOT show up. Then attendance dropped 20% the year after that and another 20% the next year. They almost lost 1000 season tickets last year because MANY old timers were pissed at the athletic department at some things that went on away from the game itself PLUS the team's performance really sucked at home. I hate to see where the numbers go in 2017-18. It may drop off the chart unless Clink comes up with some quick solutions to fix the hole in the dam. We all know the atmosphere is miserable and maybe he decides to start making lower seats available to people who actually want to SIT there.

Bottom line........this team has to step it up, big time. One more year like last year and we'll end up like Loyola and that just isn't acceptable. We'll find out how good Sherard is pretty soon (and I am counting on it). Between football and basketball, he really has his hands full.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Coach said:


> Thanks to you SSOM for explaining it to me. Sometimes us old-timers just can't grasp the "true meaning" of elections, or any other "newsworthy" stories without some "talking head" explaining it to us . I could have gone all day not knowing what I was saying until you explained it to me....................geez lol.



No problem. Glad I could help.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

A couple questions to the congregation. What does the list below represent? How is it relevant to the conversation? How does it basically fly in the face of every one of your "point the finger elsewhere" rebuttals? 

2003 - $1,898,134
2004 - $2,012,670
2005 - $2,229,801
2006 - $3,105,407
2007 - $3,108,195
2008 - $3,187,098
2009 - $3,220,886
2010 - $3,798,648
2011 - $4,644,724
2012 - $5,369,577
2013 - $5,127,543
2014 - $5,738,315
2015 - $6,920,933

I'm going out for the evening, but I'd actually like to see someone think about the list above critically, how it relates to Indiana State, and then come to a realization of how the bullshit responses of "this team needs to kick it into gear," and "we just need to win more," and "the University just need to find money because they're not getting mine" are the underlying core of our athletic program problems and, in such, why we'll continue to be cellar dwellers for the rest of our lifetimes if nothing doesn't change.

* Breaks out the offering plate *


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Well If I had to guess it's either our own Foundations fundraising year by year - though I'd be absolutely astonished if we're raising anything close to $7 million a year. Or it's the budget year by year of another mid major program that has become successful. 

Those are my guesses even though the post might not have been intended for me. No one else bothered playing along and they usually don't when given a platform.


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## treeman

the difference between our basketball budget and the national average?


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Coach said:


> Plain & simple: Wichita=Koch
> Terre Haute's big-time benefactor's name is on the Hulman Center and that was a long time ago.  If there is another one out there he/she is well-hidden.
> Dream all you want about attendance revenue (barely enough to pay the ushers the last 1/2 of the season) & don't count on it getting any better soon.
> A nice effort to bring in funds via $20 donations but its going to take a hell of a lot of $20 bills. More than the number of fans that regularly attend games.
> Bottom line - no quick fixes unless a BIG TIME donor comes on board. Like to see it but good luck with that.





treeman said:


> the difference between our basketball budget and the national average?



That's a good thought too.


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## Jason Svoboda

Thanks to Twitch and treeman for venturing a guess. Those numbers are actually Wichita State's basketball budget. 

I took some time reading through ShockerNet and their discussions on how they were able to rise from the bottom of the league in the 80's into the power they had become and the underlying theme was the fans absolutely would not accept the program being anything else but the power they aspired to be. At one time they were envious and looked up to Creighton, Southern Illinois and the teams that were dominating and getting tournament bids. 

After looking at their budget and how it exploded over the last 15 years, I read some more posts over there that talked about attendance still being among the tops in the country even when they were having down years. Fans wanted to make sure that the administration at the time (they stated they had a MIA President and careless AD) knew this is what they cared about and wanted more out of the program. Sure enough, the numbers back up those claims. Even when they were bad, Wichita State was in the Top 75 (mostly top 60s) from 95-2000 despite having similar seasons to our own. When they had a couple "decent" seasons they jumped into the Top 50 and once they went "all in" in 2004, they've basically had a decade of Top 30-40 attendance figures. Below is that period from 1995 to 2015. 






Koch seats 10,500. So even in their down years, that place was nearly 70-80% full. It didn't just stop with attendance, either. Donations rained in during that period so they could hire and retain Turgeon when he was hired and again for Marshall. They also were able to hire and retain head coaches as assistants. When assistants leave Wichita, it's for a head coaching job elsewhere compared to assistants leaving Indiana State for a pay increase. 

Also, I was able to uncover some slight recruiting budget info in a couple searches and, shocker (pun intended), Wichita State's basketball recruiting budget was 3-4x the size of ours between 2008-2012. Ours topped out around $50k and theirs was typically between $150-200k per year. I'm sure with the further explosion of their program, that number has jumped even higher.

Like the wise man Sycamore317 said: "Remember more money will solve the problem." He's 100% right. While economics tells us there will be a law of diminishing returns, I can assure you we are nowhere near that saturation point. So please, please, please, take heed to Sycamore317 and start buying season tickets if you live in Terre Haute and making donations to the men's basketball program. If you want better players, make note that you want your money specifically to go to men's basketball recruiting. Demand more out of the program, the coaches, the players and the administration. When you put your money where your mouth is, that gives you the right to shout from the mountain tops if you don't like the way things are going. Put some bite behind that bark. 

The school is not going to be the change most of us seek. We are.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

The truth will set you free!!


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## Westbadenboy

I'm a little confused -- we always say our programs are underfunded at ISU -- therefore we underachieve.  But looking at the football budget at ISU we are very competitive and ahead of traditional powers like UNI.

So based upon the long standing belief on this site that money = success ------- we'll should've never gone through the football nightmare that ISU has seen for much of the past several years ......we should have been winning 6 -- 8 games every year.

Hummmmmmm .................


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## niklz62

Westbadenboy said:


> I'm a little confused -- we always say our programs are underfunded at ISU -- therefore we underachieve.  But looking at the football budget at ISU we are very competitive and ahead of traditional powers like UNI.
> 
> So based upon the long standing belief on this site that money = success ------- we'll should've never gone through the football nightmare that ISU has seen for much of the past several years ......we should have been winning 6 -- 8 games every year.
> 
> Hummmmmmm .................



I wonder if if the average college football fan could match the budget to the facilities if they didnt know which was which?


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## Jason Svoboda

Westbadenboy said:


> I'm a little confused -- we always say our programs are underfunded at ISU -- therefore we underachieve.  But looking at the football budget at ISU we are very competitive and ahead of traditional powers like UNI.
> 
> So based upon the long standing belief on this site that money = success ------- we'll should've never gone through the football nightmare that ISU has seen for much of the past several years ......we should have been winning 6 -- 8 games every year.
> 
> Hummmmmmm .................


Not quite sure how you reached that conclusion but doesn't it show the exact opposite? Here are the football budgets and win/loss records since 2003:

2003 - $1,506,202 - 3-9
2004 - $1,694,795 - 4-7
2005 - $1,809,916 - 0-11
2006 - $1,736,243 - 1-10
2007 - $2,081,579 - 0-11
2008 - $2,033,169 - 0-12
2009 - $2,350,468 - 1-10
2010 - $2,649,218 - 6-5
2011 - $3,166,886 - 6-5 
2012 - $2,859,361 - 7-4
2013 - $3,183,454 - 1-11
2014 - $3,432,997 - 8-6
2015 - $3,896,248 - 5-6

Prior to 2011, Indiana State football did not have access to the full 63 scholarships allowed at the FCS level. 

In 2013, that was post-Miles jumping to Georgia State, a new staff coming in and the most injury riddled season I have ever see in college sports at any level. We lost nearly our entire offensive/defensive lines, our playmakers in the defensive backfield and Shakir Bell was kicked off the team. Also, the staff was not allowed to recruit nationally prior to this year.

In 2014, after putting significant cash into the program, fully funding scholarships and allowing the staff to recruit coast-to-coast, we made it to the FCS playoffs in the hardest division in FCS. Should also be noted our football coaching salary pool jumped over 25% from 2012-2015 yet it still one of the lower salary pools. 

One caveat to consider. Facility improvements aren't lumped into football budgets. So while we've ramped up our spending, our facilities still remain among the worst in the conference while others have/having new stadiums build or have undergone massive facility makeovers.


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## niklz62

here's something that I think will hurt us more than the Koch brothers vs WSU (i know they are gone) regarding attendance.  Keep in mind im at the mercy of a website I found and I dont know if its legit BUT with a 30 mile radius from each city you have the following populations:

Terre Haute - 231,840
Wichita - 712,819

this is what I used:
https://www.freemaptools.com/find-population.htm


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## Bluethunder

I have always said, it isn't just the population surrounding the areas of the cities that MVC schools are located in, its the percentage of alumni and people associated with the school.

The VAST majority of our alumni don't live in or around Terre Haute.  I am betting that with the large companies located in Wichita, they have a much larger percentage of alumni that stay in the area after graduation, which makes it much easier to fill seats.


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## 4Q_iu

Bluethunder said:


> I have always said, it isn't just the population surrounding the areas of the cities that MVC schools are located in, its the percentage of alumni and people associated with the school.
> 
> The VAST majority of our alumni don't live in or around Terre Haute.  I am betting that with the large companies located in Wichita, they have a much larger percentage of alumni that stay in the area after graduation, which makes it much easier to fill seats.




I believe Terre Haute / Wabash Valley still has the largest number of State alumni...

isn't Indianapolis 2nd?

Ft Wayne and Evansville did or do rank 3rd...

but yes, the majority of all State alums do not live in The Haute BUT there are over 10K alumni in the area iirc.

there may be more $$$ support outside of the Haute but it's far, FAR easier for a Wabash Valley citizen to attend a game than some in FLA or TX or ATL, etc.


In addition; of the 10 Indiana counties that represent the majority of State's undergrads...

5 (Vigo, Clay, Parke, Putnam and Vermillion) are in the Wabash Valley

the rest:

4 (Marion, Hamilton, Johnson, Hendricks) are Metro Indy
1 (Lake)


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## treeman

Jason Svoboda said:


> 2003 - $1,506,202 - 3-9
> 2004 - $1,694,795 - 4-7
> 2005 - $1,809,916 - 0-11
> 2006 - $1,736,243 - 1-10
> 2007 - $2,081,579 - 0-11
> 2008 - $2,033,169 - 0-12
> 2009 - $2,350,468 - 1-10
> 2010 - $2,649,218 - 6-5
> 2011 - $3,166,886 - 6-5
> 2012 - $2,859,361 - 7-4
> 2013 - $3,183,454 - 1-11
> 2014 - $3,432,997 - 8-6
> 2015 - $3,896,248 - 5-6





1M-2M - 8-37 (.177)
2M-3M - 14-42 (.250)
3M+ - 20-28 (.416)

So looking at this data it appears that we have a shitty football program regardless of money spent :thumbsup:


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## Westbadenboy

Can't find it now but someone posted the football budgets for all MVCF teams and it showed us in the middle of the pack and above UNI and several others.


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## Jason Svoboda

Westbadenboy said:


> Can't find it now but someone posted the football budgets for all MVCF teams and it showed us in the middle of the pack and above UNI and several others.


I posted it and it was a one year spend snapshot. 

So in reading my response above in post 157, do you still have the same opinion?


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## niklz62

treeman said:


> 1M-2M - 8-37 (.177)
> 2M-3M - 14-42 (.250)
> 3M+ - 20-28 (.416)
> 
> So looking at this data it appears that we have a shitty football program regardless of money spent :thumbsup:



i guess you could also look at it as being 1 win in 10,11,12 and 15 from being in the playoffs 5 of the last 7 years.  

we might spend $900k more than South Dakota State per year but i dont think we are close to the $60Million they just spent on their stadium or even the $20Million Illinois State just spent to theirs.


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## niklz62

Westbadenboy said:


> Can't find it now but someone posted the football budgets for all MVCF teams and it showed us in the middle of the pack and above UNI and several others.



Jason Posted this in another thread:
Rothstein is as reliable as a source comes typically. 

https://www.fanragsports.com/news/mv...tes-departure/

Here is how basketball budgets would look if that happened. Also don't know if that means Murray State would also be invited into the MVFC as I doubt the OVC would let them to keep football there.

$3,128,419 - Bradley (no football) - 121st nationally
$2,899,699 - Northern Iowa - 132nd nationally
$2,899,667 - Evansville (no football) - 133rd nationally
$2,745,553 - Loyola (no football) - 139th nationally
$2,666,213 - Valparaiso (non-scholarship football) - 143rd nationally
$2,472,212 - Drake (non-scholarship football) - 153rd nationally
$2,452,961 - Illinois State - 156th nationally
$2,279,917 - Missouri State - 171st nationally
$2,241,413 - Southern Illinois - 175th nationally
$2,218,712 - Murray State - 177th nationally
$1,832,975 - Indiana State - 208th nationally

Since we're taking North Dakota into the MVFC, adding Murray State would move the MVFC up to 12 teams. That could lead to some travel budget relief for schools. If so, here is how the football budgets look from 2015 OpEd expense data with UND and MSU:

$4,647,923 - North Dakota State
$4,062,137 - Illinois State
$4,019,362 - North Dakota
$3,949,953 - Youngstown State
$3,896,248 - Indiana State
$3,834,721 - Southern Illinois
$3,631,109 - Northern Iowa
$3,561,150 - Missouri State
$3,415,555 - South Dakota
$3,259,104 - Western Illinois
$2,926,564 - South Dakota State
$2,623,731 - Murray State


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## meistro

I'm watching SIU Edwardsville and Belmont. I understand the arguments for moving to a conference where we'd be more on par financially. But, it looks like a JUCO game playing in that SIUE arena with nobody there. It's obvious Belmont just wants to be the big fish in a small pond. I for one don't want any part of it. We just need to keep pressing the powers that be to up the financial support. I know that's tough, but not impossible. March On!


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## Sycamorefan96

I've never understood the fascination of trying to add Belmont. The only positive about them is that they typically win. Besides that they have a lousy fanbase and are located in a market where no one cares about them. In other words they are just another Loyola situation waiting to happen.

It appears that the MVC is going to indeed expand to 12. It also looks like Murray State is basically "in" when we expand. There isn't really any good "#12" option out there, but of the schools I've seen mentioned I think Northern Kentucky is the best one out there that we could realistically get. NKU had a lot of success in D2, they just made the NCAA Tournament last season, and their arena is very nice. I honestly believe NKU would be a way better add than Belmont tbh; and they would for sure be a way better add than UWM and/or UNO. And they would be another fairly close game for us.


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## SycamoreStateofMind

Sycamorefan96 said:


> I've never understood the fascination of trying to add Belmont. The only positive about them is that they typically win. Besides that they have a lousy fanbase and are located in a market where no one cares about them. In other words they are just another Loyola situation waiting to happen.



Let me help you - it’s a fun road trip destination and a fairly easy drive.


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## Jason Svoboda

meistro said:


> I'm watching SIU Edwardsville and Belmont. I understand the arguments for moving to a conference where we'd be more on par financially. But, it looks like a JUCO game playing in that SIUE arena with nobody there. It's obvious Belmont just wants to be the big fish in a small pond. I for one don't want any part of it. We just need to keep pressing the powers that be to up the financial support. I know that's tough, but not impossible. March On!



And there in lies the problem. Your thought process is the typical attitude of our fans. 

Pressing the powers that be to up the financial support? Not sure how many times I've got to post this, but the school (through University funds and student fees) already subsidize nearly 80% of the athletics budget per the last set of numbers -- $11.3m of the $14.6m budget. Want them to start taking funds from academic programs? If so, what was your major when you were at State and we can start there I suppose.

College athletics are an endless money pit. I love them but they really are. Fans either start showing up and donating or they're going to force the hand of the school down the road when they finally get an administration that says enough is enough.


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## meistro

Jason Svoboda said:


> And there in lies the problem. Your thought process is the typically attitude of our fans.
> 
> Pressing the powers that be to up the financial support? Not sure how many times I've got to post this, but the school (through University funds and student fees) already subsidize nearly 80% of the athletics budget per the last set of numbers -- $11.3m of the $14.6m budget. Want them to start taking funds from academic programs? If so, what was your major when you were at State and we can start there I suppose.
> 
> College athletics are an endless money pit. I love them but they really are. Fans either start showing up and donating or they're going to force the hand of the school down the road when they finally get an administration that says enough is enough.



Got it, then press the powers that be to do a better job fundraising. I know Clink is out there working donors and hope he has success. Winning helps raise money and vice versa. You educating us on the facts does help. I've personally increased my giving the past couple years and hope others will as well. I'm just stating the fact that playing in arenas like SIUE and EIU do nothing for me, and I would seriously rethink my support in attendance and financially if we played in that conference.


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## Jason Svoboda

meistro said:


> Got it, then press the powers that be to do a better job fundraising. I know Clink is out there working donors and hope he has success. Winning helps raise money and vice versa. You're educating us on the facts does help. I've personally increased my giving the past couple years and hope others will as well. I'm just stating the fact that playing in arenas like SIUE and EIU do nothing for me, and I would seriously rethink my support in attendance and financially if we played in that conference.



And we come full circle, right? Chicken and the egg level shit.

We can't get fans out now, even when we do win, in the MVC/MVFC. We've been, for the most part, a losing program during our Valley membership. So we bleed funds. If we dropped down to the OVC, you wouldn't show. So we'd likely win but still bleed funs. Lose-lose scenario. 

That said, I contest if we went down to the OVC and won big fans would show up more than they do now. Moving away from that, there is still the stats smacking damn near every school in the face -- year over year decline in attendance in both football and basketball. Maybe attendance isn't a fixable problem?


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## Southgrad07

First off no 10X to the OVC.. That conference is 2 rungs down from the MVC despite losing WSU and involves more travel...Secondly, put me in the camp that gate attendance is not a fully fixable issue at our level. With the way TV broadcast quality and availability of games have increased +the attention span of society becoming ever shorter= a downward trend in attendance. Hell even your average high major is sitting at mostly 60-65% capacity... Very few programs draw strong crowds no matter what and I don't see that changing for the good going forward.  

I even remember visiting the mighty WSU board in the past 2-3 years and them being disgusted that 1,000-2,000 seats were unfilled for most games..If their success can't sell out all the time (even though most are announced that way) then what can we realistically expect?? I think the realistic goal we should have in mind is to compete at a higher level with our peers. Are we outdrawing ISUR?  St Louis? UNI? etc.. Are we filling over 60-65% of our arena more times than not? is the crowd there engaged?? Getting to those benchmarks in the next 2-3 years would be a smashing success given the current college landscape and our lack of winning consistently.

As for a separate yet linked discussion I am for lowering the seat capacity as low as possible for the new HC. UNI's arena is a great model for us. I think they are around 7,000?? But they often have 4,500 or whatever for a game and it sound 3 times as loud as the HC.I don't think given the situation we can get that low...But if we could get to 8,500? I think that would do wonders for the environment of the HC and have a potential snowball effect.  

A big part of my theory is that people in general are very much followers. Not all of us can have a screw loose like SSOM and just feel comfortable yelling no matter the circumstance. Most fans go along with the flow of the environment and if it appears quiet their quiet..If it appears loud they will be more comfortable chipping in. So with the reduction the vocal 5-10% of people we do draw end up in a smaller area and thus it appears louder to the masses...Might sound like a minuet thing or complete rubbish, but I truly believe lowering the capacity will result in some people becoming more engaged in the action (given there is a decent product to cheer for). And if it doesn't?? It's not like there is potential revenue being thrown away by doing so other than the 1-2 country concerts it holds a year.


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## meistro

I think with the renovations and what looks to be a potentially good team with local talent, we'll see a bump in attendance. The key will be keeping them and continue to build a better program. I'm gonna be optimistic.


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## bent20

Don't think local talent matters. Hasn't in the recent past, won't in the future. Winning is really all that matters.


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## meistro

bent20 said:


> Don't think local talent matters. Hasn't in the recent past, won't in the future. Winning is really all that matters.



It gives a boost if you're winning. I think Neese and Washington will bring in a few fans. I also think it's most definitely important to get the best local talent, if they're good enough.


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## Sycamorefan96

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Let me help you - its a fun road trip destination and a fairly easy drive.



I still wouldn't add them. They averaged 2,423 last season and that was with a winning team. Imagine how bad their attendance will be when they are no longer a winning program. I can't see them bringing very many fans to Arch Madness either. In the long run I think Belmont would be a major liability for the conference.

Ironically Eastern Illinois is by far my second favorite team and they happened to be playing Belmont tonight. (I attend all EIU home games assuming I don't work or ISU isn't playing at home.) After watching Belmont play tonight my guess is that they would be a middle of the pack MVC team. Obviously they like being the big fish in the big pond and can you blame them? If they don't make the NCAA tournament, they typically make the NIT; and the OVC is the best conference they could possibly be in geographically.

I also don't understand the "I wouldn't go to the games anymore if ISU was in the OVC" talk. I go to EIU games all the time and they are only my second favorite team. It's still D1 with D1 level talent. I'm not in anyway promoting going to the OVC, but if we moved I would still most definitely go the games. Really if we went OVC I would hope that it would be as a "football-only" member.


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## SycfromBirth

<iframe src="https://www.google.com/maps/d/embed?mid=1bXEv7hQrqKE6DccLudQ-oywpdZ0&hl=en" width="640" height="480"></iframe>

Interesting map from Google with all of the DI basketball teams.  Valparaiso isn't listed in the MVC??  Other than that it is an easy way to get a geographical look at what makes sense.  I agree with the Murray State sentiment that has been expressed.  Obviously EIU would help keep our travel budget down!!  There are several other schools that make sense from a geographical standpoint but not necessarily from a level of play standpoint.


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