# Loyola-Chicago joining MVC this week (Oakland to Horizon League)



## 4Q_iu

ESPN is reporting 'rumors' of discussions between the 7 non-football/non-scholie football (Catholic) members of the Big East to form a NEW Conference...    those schools are:

DePaul Univ, Georgetown Univ, Marquette Univ, Providence College, St John's Univ, Seton Hall Univ and Villanova Univ

While only those 7 were mentioned; the smart money would have them pursue Dayton, St Louis and Xavier from the Atlantic-10...

Hint:   Anyone want to guess the odds they WON'T admit schools planning to add, upgrade their football programs???


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## Jason Svoboda

I'd bet Creighton is also on their wish list.


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## Chief_Quabachi

I look for Creighton to leave the MVC and become a member of a Catholic B'ball "only" conference.


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## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> I'd bet Creighton is also on their wish list.



That would be a possibility; if the NE schools are willing to fly to Chicago and Milwaukee; Cincinnati, Dayton, St Louis and Omaha are only ~30-45 minutes more flying time...

Who replaces Creighton if they bolt for this or other conference?

ESPN LINK:   And pay attention to the language that if all seven leave together, THEY get the auto bid to the NCAA BBall Tournament.  Current Big East Conference rules allow for dissolution of the league and these 7 schools can vote it in; the other 3 remaining schools (UCinn, South FLA and UConn) can't stop it AND the 'new schools' (Temple, San Diego St, Boise, etc aren't voting members.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...-schools-leaning-leaving-big-east-sources-say


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## bent20

Losing Creighton might hurt the MVC's prestige but it would help level the playing field.


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## Jason Svoboda

bent20 said:


> Losing Creighton might hurt the MVC's prestige but it would help level the playing field.


Yeah, both Creighton and Wichita State have a distinct advantage we've talked about elsewhere since they don't field football teams. Since none of the University resources get allocated there, they dump buckets of money into the hoops program.


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## bent20

Jason Svoboda said:


> Yeah, both Creighton and Wichita State have a distinct advantage we've talked about elsewhere since they don't field football teams. Since none of the University resources get allocated there, they dump buckets of money into the hoops program.



That and Creighton being privately funded.


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## IndyTreeFan

If this goes down a certain way, with the Big East 7 poaching a few A-10 schools, and then coming to Creighton AND Wichita State, the Valley could be in trouble.  The "Big Dogs" of the conference are gone, our prestige goes down the toilet, and we become the Horizon League II.  Some teams like UNI and Illinois State could possibly try and bolt for FBS football, although I think that's a bit far fetched - but it could happen.  Shoot, we could become worse than the Horizon League...

This could be a very, very bad development for the MVC.  Or, if things break another way, we might be able to poach Dayton, St. Louis, or some other good programs from a splintered A-10.

This could get very interesting.  I hope Elgin and his staff have a plan...


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## Southgrad07

Losing cu and wsu wouldn't be a good thing. We would be more competive yearly but our conference would be much weaker and I fear our attendance would even be worse.  Cu and wsu are the biggest draws we get on a yearly basis and some years like last season they lead to tv appearances which helps our recruiting. Losing quality schools does not help ISU in any way. Elgin should definitely be proactive in this matter before its too late.


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## ISUCC

I just do not see this ending well for the MVC, like everyone has said, losing WSU and CU immediately makes us Horizon League II, then who do we add.


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## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> I just do not see this ending well for the MVC, like everyone has said, losing WSU and CU immediately makes us Horizon League II, then who do we add.



Personally, and I'm likely in the minority here, but I'd like to see a unification of the regular and football conferences if at all possible. Or, at the very least, make sure all teams in the MVC also field a football team, even if it is at the Pioneer League level like Drake. I think there is something said for at least attempting to level the financial playing field. North Dakota State is one school that I'd be interested in adding. I think you look to the Summit because that has been a natural progression path in the past -- pulling UNI, Missouri State from there.


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## Bally #50

This is time I jump in and talk about my DREAM idea (possibly the 3rd time I have brought this up) where the Illinois and Indiana schools in the MVC merge with the Indiana, Ohio and Michigan schools of the MAC. These MAC schools fall back to D-1AA and we all go home happy. I am convinced the MAC schools are already pondering such a move. That's all I want under my Tree this year (or next year).


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## SycamoreStateofMind

I personally wouldn't get all that caught up in this news until it plays out. These conference alignment talks seem to be pretty fluid. This basketball conference is the only conference besides the Ivy League to not to have any teams exit or added in the last 10 years. I think that says something about the leadership and schools in this conference. 

I'm also not convinced that the scenerio would be so terrible for the MVC. Again, I will wait for it to play out before I offer any opinion as at this time its mere speculation and that is a waste of my time and yours.


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## bent20

That's also some even longer road trips for Creighton if they move to a conference like that, not that that would probably deter them and their deeper pockets.


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## 4Q_iu

Bally #46 said:


> This is time I jump in and talk about my DREAM idea (possibly the 3rd time I have brought this up) where the Illinois and Indiana schools in the MVC merge with the Indiana, Ohio and Michigan schools of the MAC. These MAC schools fall back to D-1AA and we all go home happy. I am convinced the MAC schools are already pondering such a move. That's all I want under my Tree this year (or next year).



I don't see ISU-Muncee and Northern Illinois making plans to 'scale back' ESPECIALLY No Illinois; they're gonna use this Orange Bowl appearance to build, Build, BUILD.

I also don't see WSU being on the radar of any new East Coast/Private School - Catholic institution Conference...  Creighton?  Possibly.
WSU -- I don't see it.

They may pursue a Duquesne University or St Joe's (Philadelphia) before they chase St Louis, Dayton or Xavier OR they may stand pat at the 7...


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## BankShot

IndyTreeFan said:


> If this goes down a certain way, with the Big East 7 poaching a few A-10 schools, and then coming to Creighton AND Wichita State, the Valley could be in trouble.  The "Big Dogs" of the conference are gone, our prestige goes down the toilet, and we become the Horizon League II.  Some teams like UNI and Illinois State could possibly try and bolt for FBS football, although I think that's a bit far fetched - but it could happen.  Shoot, we could become worse than the Horizon League...
> 
> This could be a very, very bad development for the MVC.  Or, if things break another way, we might be able to poach Dayton, St. Louis, or some other good programs from a splintered A-10.
> 
> This could get very interesting.  I hope Elgin and his staff have a plan...



I've always felt that he MVC should've been matching cards w/ the big conferences & shopping for NEW member schools. If we lose WSU & the Jayz and turn into a "Horizon II," it's Elgin's fault for not be pro-active on the idea.

I like Bally46's idea re: the MAC...a true GEOGRAPHIC match.


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## Bally #50

4Q_iu said:


> I don't see ISU-Muncee and Northern Illinois making plans to 'scale back' ESPECIALLY No Illinois; they're gonna use this Orange Bowl appearance to build, Build, BUILD.
> 
> I also don't see WSU being on the radar of any new East Coast/Private School - Catholic institution Conference...  Creighton?  Possibly.
> WSU -- I don't see it.
> 
> 
> They may pursue a Duquesne University or St Joe's (Philadelphia) before they chase St Louis, Dayton or Xavier OR they may stand pat at the 7...


4Q, there are some obvious MAC teams that will go up in this "hypothetical" break up of the Mid-American and NIU is clearly one of them. Central Michigan is likely going to stay up. In Michigan, EMU, and WMU are the ones I was talking about. In Ohio, Kent State will stay up as might Ohio U and maybe another, but some are not looking too strong.  Western Michigan, I think I just read, was the lowest attendance in D-1 football at around 2K a game. BSU was around 9K I think. Ugh, WMU might not even be good enough for my dream conference.


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## sycamore tuff

I'm with Jason on this one.  We need to add the mvfc schools to the mvc.  If that were to happen, maybe we could attract eastern illinois back.


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## 4Q_iu

Bally #46 said:


> 4Q, there are some obvious MAC teams that will go up in this "hypothetical" break up of the Mid-American and NIU is clearly one of them. Central Michigan is likely going to stay up. In Michigan, EMU, and WMU are the ones I was talking about. In Ohio, Kent State will stay up as might Ohio U and maybe another, but some are not looking too strong.  Western Michigan, I think I just read, was the lowest attendance in D-1 football at around 2K a game. BSU was around 9K I think. Ugh, WMU might not even be good enough for my dream conference.



Oh, I agree that the MAC should move to the NCAA Div 1 - FCS classification; I'm not sure of NIU and Ohio's attendance (or Kent's) but MOST FBS schools have less-than-stellar attendance on a weekly basis.

My point is regardless of what they SHOULD do, all of the MAC is going to remain at the FBS level; they'll point to THIS season (they have what, 7 schools in Bowl Games?   NIU - Orange, Ohio - Independence, Bowling Grn St - Military, ISU-Muncee - Beef O'Brady's, CMU - Little Caesar's Pizza, Kent - GoDaddy.com, Toledo - Famous Idaho Potato...)  and call it a HELLUVA season...

Some would argue, they're correct.  They got a BCS bid, have two ranked teams, another team spent time in the Top 25 and TOOK a bowl bid AWAY from the Big Ten (sic)

But will they be able to CONSISTENTLY put 25-30K in seats every saturday?  I don't think so


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## Bally #50

4Q_iu said:


> Oh, I agree that the MAC should move to the NCAA Div 1 - FCS classification; I'm not sure of NIU and Ohio's attendance (or Kent's) but MOST FBS schools have less-than-stellar attendance on a weekly basis.
> 
> My point is regardless of what they SHOULD do, all of the MAC is going to remain at the FBS level; they'll point to THIS season (they have what, 7 schools in Bowl Games?   NIU - Orange, Ohio - Independence, Bowling Grn St - Military, ISU-Muncee - Beef O'Brady's, CMU - Little Caesar's Pizza, Kent - GoDaddy.com, Toledo - Famous Idaho Potato...)  and call it a HELLUVA season...
> 
> Some would argue, they're correct.  They got a BCS bid, have two ranked teams, another team spent time in the Top 25 and TOOK a bowl bid AWAY from the Big Ten (sic)
> 
> But will they be able to CONSISTENTLY put 25-30K in seats every saturday?  I don't think so


That is why I call it a DREAM. I don't know what there total amount of schools (16 or so) are now, but I will admit, they screwed me this year by qualifying for that many bowls. Usually 1 or 2.


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## DyedBlue

All sports or just MBB?    Does it make sense from a transportation standpoint for baseball, soccer, etc to be flying to the east coast every week?  If only MBB, then who would want them with the big draw not part of the package??? Creighton is not Notre Dame joining the Big East in everything except FB but even there ND is playing 5 games/year against ACC opponents down the road.    And give the MAC some credit, it has had a number of quality FB teams for years, some bad teams like EMU year in and year out, but of you look at the TV coverage they got during the NBA strike a year ago and the overall quality of play and the stars like Big Ben who have come out of the league then it is on an upward trend in visibility and, hopefully, support, that will pay off for them over the long haul.


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## Jason Svoboda

DyedBlue said:


> All sports or just MBB?    Does it make sense from a transportation standpoint for baseball, soccer, etc to be flying to the east coast every week?  If only MBB, then who would want them with the big draw not part of the package??? Creighton is not Notre Dame joining the Big East in everything except FB but even there ND is playing 5 games/year against ACC opponents down the road.    And give the MAC some credit, it has had a number of quality FB teams for years, some bad teams like EMU year in and year out, but of you look at the TV coverage they got during the NBA strike a year ago and the overall quality of play and the stars like Big Ben who have come out of the league then it is on an upward trend in visibility and, hopefully, support, that will pay off for them over the long haul.



Money.

If this becomes a power basketball conference, then they will get a nice media contract. DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall and Villanova are the 7 rumored to be leaving to form their own conference. That's Chicago, DC, Milwaukee, Rhode Island, New York, New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Those are pretty big media markets. If they can snag Xavier and Dayton, that gives them Ohio including a decent sized market in Cincinnati. 

Let's say they get to 10-14 teams. If they can diversify the media markets, the share between the schools for any TV deal would make it worth their while. Creighton would go for it because it would give them national media exposure, thus raising their brand.


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## Jason Svoboda

> The magazine’s website reported Thursday the seven current Big East schools without FBS football — Villanova, St. John’s, Marquette, Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall and DePaul — are examining the formation of a new 12-team league.
> 
> Creighton, along with four Atlantic 10 schools — Dayton, Xavier, Butler and St. Louis — are the most likely institutions being considered as conference partners, SI.com reported.
> 
> MVC commissioner Doug Elgin declined comment to the Journal Star on the report mentioning the Bluejays, saying it was too speculative to address.



http://www.pjstar.com/bradleyhoops/...tball-schools-may-include-invite-to-Creighton


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## ISUCC

Butler and Xavier leaving A-10 to join the catholic 7 league, wow

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/183377221.html#!page=2&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst


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## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> Butler and Xavier leaving A-10 to join the catholic 7 league, wow
> 
> http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/183377221.html#!page=2&pageSize=10&sort=newestfirst



There is nothing being said about that here in Indy yet besides speculation.

http://www.indystar.com/article/20121213/SPORTS0605/212130363/Butler-basketball-Bulldogs-move-again-


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## SoCalSycamore

*Creighton and a "National Catholic Conference"...*

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...e-leave-big-east-debating-process-source-says

"Brey also said the discussion among the Catholic schools was to make it a national Catholic conference with Xavier, Saint Louis, Dayton, Creighton, Gonzaga and possibly Saint Mary's, as well."


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## BankShot

Taking this concept to the NEXT level, why don't they also convert St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican City to a basketball court and host the conference tournament...maybe the Pope could be "scorekeeper?"  Sistine Chapel could be ESPN Media Headquarters...:bash:

This conference realignment thing has really got out of hand...gotta wonder if Louisville-based Yum Brands will also have their own conference, w/ Taco Bell Tech, the KFC  Institute of Crispier Winged Creatures and Pizza Hut Dough Dough Birds all uniting to spread their "go$pel?"


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## ISUCC

I think it's a given that Creighton's days in the MVC are numbered, which is very bad unfortunately.


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## region rat

ISUCC said:


> I think it's a given that Creighton's days in the MVC are numbered, which is very bad unfortunately.


It is all about money.


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## Daveinth

I believe should Creighton leave for  another league they will have a rude awakening when it comes to the realization that they are no longer Elgins golden boys .


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## Jason Svoboda

Bradley beat writer said he heard Evansville and Creighton are leaving the Valley. Evansville AD has come out and denied; Creighton hasn't.


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## Jason Svoboda

Should be clear. The Bradley beat writer said Evansville was leaving for the Horizon.


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## treeman

if creighton leaves it does not look good for the valley. wichita will bolt the second they get an invite anywhere (but without football, i dont see where it will come from.) ill state and uni will probably look to upgrade their football programs and head to the mac. evansville to the horizon. drake and bradley will probably pair up and stick together. and that leaves us, southern illinois, and missouri state all in the same boat. it will be an interesting week in the valley at this point. a dream would be for creighton to stay and the mvc adding a QUALITY program like dayton, st. louis, or butler, but that doesn't look like it's gonna happen.


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## ISUCC

we're in trouble, there are no ifs, ands, or buts about it folks. The MVC is TOAST


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## SycamoreStateofMind

ISUCC said:


> we're in trouble, there are no ifs, ands, or buts about it folks. The MVC is TOAST



Lol ISUCC consistantly one of the most pessimistic members of sycamorepride... Haha

Relax people - it's college athletics, things will play out:


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## treeman

and now reports/rumors of wichita to the moutain west. this getting ridiculous.


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## Jason Svoboda

treeman said:


> if creighton leaves it does not look good for the valley. wichita will bolt the second they get an invite anywhere (but without football, i dont see where it will come from.) ill state and uni will probably look to upgrade their football programs and head to the mac. evansville to the horizon. drake and bradley will probably pair up and stick together. and that leaves us, southern illinois, and missouri state all in the same boat. it will be an interesting week in the valley at this point. a dream would be for creighton to stay and the mvc adding a QUALITY program like dayton, st. louis, or butler, but that doesn't look like it's gonna happen.


It doesn't quite work like that. Illinois State and UNI can't just move up to the MAC. In order to move up, you must have approval from the NCAA and then they also require you to meet a bunch of requirements. Further, UNI was close to shutting down ALL of their athletic programs just a couple years ago. No way would they have the financial backing to make such a move. Missouri State was rumored to want to move up to FBS but I just don't see how anyone can look at the financials and think that is a smart move. 

I'm perfectly fine with Creighton and/or Wichita State leaving the conference. I've said it before and I'll say it again, both schools are on unfair footing with the fact they don't field a football team. This allows them to pay coaches like they do and having much larger recruiting budgets than everyone else in the Valley. With both of them leaving, you will have more equal footing in terms of competition and that is what I'm looking for. My only hope is they find a way to unify the MVC and MVFC before looking outside the conference.


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## Daveinth

I would hope the powers that be in the MVC are taking a Pro-active approach in tlaking to these schools find out where they stand and take proper actions to prevent the destruction of the confence. If these schools leave there are many schools that would be happy to join . I think that you have to look at more than just basketball when it comes to Creighton and Witchita . They both have strong traditions in baseball and other sports what do they lose should they leave for basketball purposes .


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## bent20

It will be interesting to see so many private schools in on league. Many rude awakenings once the funding playing field is level.


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## Sycamore Proud

Could be a good time to bring the MVFC and MVC together as one.  I know that means trips to the Dakotas, but I believe it could be made to work and work well.


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## IndyTreeFan

Sycamore Proud said:


> Could be a good time to bring the MVFC and MVC together as one.  I know that means trips to the Dakotas, but I believe it could be made to work and work well.



Yes, because games with Western Illinois and South Dakota are really going to help fill Hulman Center.

The ONLY MVFC school I would even consider for full membership would be NDSU.  Outside of them, go somewhere else to fill the holes.  Murray State, perhaps?  But get someone who will help the conference, not just some warm bodies to fill the numbers.  I don't want to drop down to a "low-major" conference because we got crappy replacements for the elite teams that left.  The MVC, without CU and WSU, will suck.  Face it, deal with it, change it...


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## Sycamore Proud

Part of the "could be made to work" scenario could include expansion and dividing the Valley in 2 divisions to cut travel costs and build rivalries.  I understand your concern, it's not out of line, but whatever the solution may be it won't be easy.   And for what it's worth, I don't see Murray State putting more bodies in the seats than Western Illinois but I could see both of them in a divisional Valley.


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## ISUCC

Sycamore Proud said:


> Could be a good time to bring the MVFC and MVC together as one.  I know that means trips to the Dakotas, but I believe it could be made to work and work well.



the reason this will NEVER happen is because it turns the MVC from a bus league into a flight league, and ISU, SIU, and ILS, UE, and others will never approve of that.


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## IndyTreeFan

Well, I'm just ticked about the whole thing because the MVC is gonna SUCK without our two best teams.  I hate them both, but if CU leaves, WSU will catch the first bus outta town, and this league will be about as interesting as, and only slightly better than, the SWAC.  I don't know if we could really get anyone to come to the MVC who would do anything to raise the profile of the league.

I would love to add the likes of former members Cincy and Memphis, and let them play football wherever.  Not gonna happen, but that's the kind of teams we ought to be looking for.  Or at least dreaming of...


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## agrinut

I think this is all a little premature. Oh and WSU is going no where they bring very little to any of the available leagues.


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## bent20

IndyTreeFan said:


> Yes, because games with Western Illinois and South Dakota are really going to help fill Hulman Center.
> 
> The ONLY MVFC school I would even consider for full membership would be NDSU.  Outside of them, go somewhere else to fill the holes.  Murray State, perhaps?  But get someone who will help the conference, not just some warm bodies to fill the numbers.  I don't want to drop down to a "low-major" conference because we got crappy replacements for the elite teams that left.  The MVC, without CU and WSU, will suck.  Face it, deal with it, change it...



Yeah, it will stink for everyone else to be on a level playing field where they, too, have a shot to win the conference and build their program's name and tradition. What will we do without Creighton to dominate the conference and flop in the NCAA tournament, or WSU, to dominate the conference and then completely fail in the conference tourney?


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## IndyTreeFan

bent20 said:


> Yeah, it will stink for everyone else to be on a level playing field where they, too, have a shot to win the conference and build their program's name and tradition. What will we do without Creighton to dominate the conference and flop in the NCAA tournament, or WSU, to dominate the conference and then completely fail in the conference tourney?



That's the same thing as saying we should "dumb down" schools because some people are smarter than others.  It doesn't build your brand to win the Summit League, but it does to win the MVC.  All this "level playing field" talk is crap.  I don't want to win a watered down MVC because if that's what we want, why not just move to the OVC where we have a more "level playing field"?

Yeah, winning a crap conference is so much better...this is typical ISU thinking...


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## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> That's the same thing as saying we should "dumb down" schools because some people are smarter than others.  It doesn't build your brand to win the Summit League, but it does to win the MVC.  All this "level playing field" talk is crap.  I don't want to win a watered down MVC because if that's what we want, why not just move to the OVC where we have a more "level playing field"?
> 
> Yeah, winning a crap conference is so much better...this is typical ISU thinking...



Here is where I'll strongly disagree. McDermott makes $1m at Creighton and Lansing makes $170k. They are able to also pay their assistant coaches significantly more. Further, they have a recruiting budget that is 5x plus what we have. Then you also throw in the cash they have to buy games. They are are on completely different playing field financially.


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## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Yes, because games with Western Illinois and South Dakota are really going to help fill Hulman Center.
> 
> The ONLY MVFC school I would even consider for full membership would be NDSU.  Outside of them, go somewhere else to fill the holes.  Murray State, perhaps?  But get someone who will help the conference, not just some warm bodies to fill the numbers.  I don't want to drop down to a "low-major" conference because we got crappy replacements for the elite teams that left.  The MVC, without CU and WSU, will suck.  Face it, deal with it, change it...


I don't think they would be any more or less full than any other Valley opponent. Hell, I was at the New Mexico game and it was barren for a Top 25 team.


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## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> Here is where I'll strongly disagree. McDermott makes $1m at Creighton and Lansing makes $170k. They are able to also pay their assistant coaches significantly more. Further, they have a recruiting budget that is 5x plus what we have. Then you also throw in the cash they have to buy games. They are are on completely different playing field financially.



Seriously, if this is the way we are going to deal with this, why don't we start a "Drop to the OVC" campaign.  Personally, I'd rather see us aspire to be one of the elites in a strong MVC, but if I'm out here on an island all by myself...:angel:

Still think it's typical ISU to dumb down rather than build up...


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## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> I don't think they would be any more or less full than any other Valley opponent. Hell, I was at the New Mexico game and it was barren for a Top 25 team.



There would be more than a few people who would drop their season tickets if there's no hope of seeing a couple really strong teams each season.  I might be one of them.  I'll make the trips over knowing that for every Truman State we play, I'm gonna get to see a Creighton, Wichita State or other Valley team that's flirting with the Top 25.  I'm not gonna be too excited about all those trips when the highlight of the schedule is yet another team that A) no one ever hears about, and B) no one cares about.

A STRONG Valley is good for us.  A weak Valley, not so much...


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## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Seriously, if this is the way we are going to deal with this, why don't we start a "Drop to the OVC" campaign.  Personally, I'd rather see us aspire to be one of the elites in a strong MVC, but if I'm out here on an island all by myself...:angel:
> 
> Still think it's typical ISU to dumb down rather than build up...



I don't. The MVC is still going to be a strong mid-major conference. Do you consider the Horizon League to be a "low major" conference? Looking at Butler, they were able to build a national program out of a lower ranked conference. I just don't see Creighton leaving as gloom and doom.


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## Jason Svoboda

> A number of schools have been mentioned as possible MVC replacements should Creighton and/or Evansville leave.
> 
> The list includes such private institutions as Valparaiso, Loyola and Oral Roberts and public schools like Illinois-Chicago, Wisconsin-Milwaukee, South Dakota State and North Dakota State.



http://www.pjstar.com/bradleyhoops/x1353220861/Will-Catholic-7-poach-the-MVC


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## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> There would be more than a few people who would drop their season tickets if there's no hope of seeing a couple really strong teams each season.  I might be one of them.  I'll make the trips over knowing that for every Truman State we play, I'm gonna get to see a Creighton, Wichita State or other Valley team that's flirting with the Top 25.  I'm not gonna be too excited about all those trips when the highlight of the schedule is yet another team that A) no one ever hears about, and B) no one cares about.
> 
> A STRONG Valley is good for us.  A weak Valley, not so much...



No you wouldn't, your signature says otherwise. It doesn't say "*Sycamores 'till Creighton leaves the MVC*" :biggrin:

Further, I'd venture a guess that more tickets would be sold if we fielded a consistent winner. All I'm saying is I want the strongest teams we can have in the Valley as long as the playing field is level.


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## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> I don't. The MVC is still going to be a strong mid-major conference. Do you consider the Horizon League to be a "low major" conference? Looking at Butler, they were able to build a national program out of a lower ranked conference. I just don't see Creighton leaving as gloom and doom.



But don't you think Butler outspent their Horizon League counterparts?  No level playing field there.  Besides, that was a case of catching lightning in a bottle.  We had our chance to do that, and we blew it.

I'm not so down about Creighton going, but if we lose them AND Wichita, we aren't going to be a strong mid-major anymore.  That's a fact.  We're barely a strong mid-major now, and that is SOLELY due to Creighton and WSU.  

We need to be in the strongest conference possible, have a long term vision for our athletic program, and then a plan to achieve it.  We need to build up to the mountaintop, not fall down to the swamp!  We need to act like we're good enough to expect this, rather than bellyaching about "poor old us."

And yes, I consider the Horizon a low major since they lost their flagship program...

I'm just in a mood tonight...:shocked2:


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## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> No you wouldn't, your signature says otherwise. It doesn't say "*Sycamores 'till Creighton leaves the MVC*" :biggrin:



Smart ass...  :hypnotized:


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## Jason Svoboda

Fair enough. I don't think Wichita State is leaving. I don't think the Mountain West would take a non-football member. Every team in the conference fields a football team and their only associate member (Hawaii) is a football-only participant. I don't see a conference that makes sense for them unless they get into this new conference and I don't think they fit over the other options like Creighton, Xavier, Dayton, et al.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> Fair enough. I don't think Wichita State is leaving. I don't think the Mountain West would take a non-football member. Every team in the conference fields a football team and their only associate member (Hawaii) is a football-only participant. I don't see a conference that makes sense for them unless they get into this new conference and I don't think they fit over the other options like Creighton, Xavier, Dayton, et al.



You are probably right.  Without football, they don't fit anywhere other than the MVC, really.  Shoot, WE might have a better shot at moving "up" than they do, simply because we have football already.  I'd hate to see us go down _that_ money pit, though...


----------



## Bluethunder

I will have to disagree that somehow the Valley becomes so much weaker by losing Creighton and/or Wichita State.  In my opinion, it was Southern Illinois, Bradley and Northern Iowa all making great runs in the tournament that brought as much attention to the league as anything.  Creighton is the golden child this year, but that is all cyclical.  Murray State got national attention and most cant name their conference, Butler got national attention and nobody cared about their conference.  The Valley is one of the oldest conferences in the NCAA and i dont see the name dying simply because Creighton leaves.

Personally, i wouldnt mind seeing Creighton leave anyway. Replace them with a Murray State and i would call that a win for the Valley.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> You are probably right.  Without football, they don't fit anywhere other than the MVC, really.  Shoot, WE might have a better shot at moving "up" than they do, simply because we have football already.  I'd hate to see us go down _that_ money pit, though...


Not even remotely interested.


----------



## OX 92

I agree Bally-  I was disapointed when NI received a good Bowl bid.  The MAC and Sun Belt really have no reason to be DIV 1 in football IMO.  No matter how good a team is from them (MAC, Sun Belt) they will be denied by the power money conf. a National Championship shot. So why stay div 1 when there isn't even hope or a dream to garner a national title?   Seperatly, I think Butler will be very upset if XU and Dayton bolt from the A-10.  Enjoy your flight to Kingston Rhode Island to play vollyball .


----------



## Jason Svoboda

> "The Catholic schools did a really good thing. They stayed at the table for as long as it took them to make as much money as they could. And once they saw all the money running out, they decided to go play somewhere else," he told reporters. "*Had some of them managed to vote appropriately over the last 10 years, we wouldn't be in the situation we are now*."
> 
> Auriemma told the newspaper, "*I hope they all leave tomorrow*." He acknowledged that would be impossible because the Big East has to play out the 2012-13 schedule.



http://espn.go.com/womens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8761988/geno-auriemma-connecticut-huskies-catholic-7-made-their-money-ran


----------



## region rat

*Catholic 7 BB Conference talking to FOX for TV Contract Creighton listed as possible*

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/d9mzr?...um=newsletter&utm_campaign=college-basketball


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Next step to viability for that conference. There has been some talks that they may try to acquire the Big East name, too. Will be interesting if they can pull that one off.

Think Creighton is also being smart about this. No TV deal, no go. They need to be paid for having the increased travel expenses.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> Next step to viability for that conference.
> 
> *There has been some talks that they may try to acquire the Big East name, too. Will be interesting if they can pull that one off.*
> 
> Think Creighton is also being smart about this. No TV deal, no go. They need to be paid for having the increased travel expenses.



They may swing the retention of the Big East name; as those 7 have competed together for 7+ years AND as they voted FOR dissolving the league (vice leaving...)  the NCAA usually allows the name, tourney "credits" and automatic bid.

When the Mountain West 'sprang' FROM the WAC, this did not occur.  (Which is why the MWC had to petition for an automatic bid, which was a factor that led to the expansion of the MBB Tourney from 64 teams to 65 teams)


----------



## bluestreak

*Catholic 7 BB Conference talking to FOX for TV Contract Creighton listed as possible*

There was a long discussion about this last night on KMOX in St. Louis, which included people close to St. Louis University. The gist of the conversation was that Creighton Was NOT included in the plans. Main reason being that they do not bring a big enough TV market to the deal, and that is really all this about... TV money.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

*New Conference*

Someone, by the screen name of "Someone Else," posted this on MVCfans.com.  I thought it was worth some discussion, since CU might be leaving and the A-10 might get raided...whaddaya think?

_Assuming Creighton, Xavier, Dayton, STL, and Butler go to the Catholic Conference could we build a new conference after scrapping the MVC and A10 conferences and picking up George Mason\Davidson and try for a new TV deal since NBC\Fox\CBS needs content?

West - Bradley, Ill State, Ind State, Mo St., N Iowa, WSU, So Ill dropping Evansville and Drake from MVC
East - VCU, St Joe, La Salle, Richmond, Umass, GW, George Mason, St Bon dropping RI, Fordham, and Duquesne from A10._

Preserves a lot of our good MVC rivalries, adds some really good teams, I guess if it came down to it, this would work with me.  Round robin in each division, plus 4 or 6 games against the other division.  I think it could be fun.  Not sure some of those east coast teams would necessarily want to come out to the cornfields, though...:razz:


----------



## Jason Svoboda

bluestreak said:


> There was a long discussion about this last night on KMOX in St. Louis, which included people close to St. Louis University. The gist of the conversation was that Creighton Was NOT included in the plans. Main reason being that they do not bring a big enough TV market to the deal, and that is really all this about... TV money.



Gonna guess they're trying to justify why they should be picked over Creighton.

It would really all depend on the TV deal. Looking back at how the Big Ten Network fought their way into the basic cable tier, expansion plans focused around getting into new markets. Would the money added from St. Louis (6m Missouri population) be worth more than the Creighton (2m Nebraska population) allure? I don't think St. Louis has nearly the fan following that Creighton has, do they? Plus, if they get it off the ground quicker, they'd have an All-American centerpiece to advertise in McDermott.


----------



## BankShot

The MVC had better be considering the impact of a St. Louis membership in the "Catholic 7," because hosting the post-season will become an inevitable reality if TV $$$ is what it's all about. A rotating agenda would serve to benefit ALL schools. If spaced too close to "Arch Madness," there could be a drop off in $$$ for the MVC.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BankShot said:


> The MVC had better be considering the impact of a St. Louis membership in the "Catholic 7," because hosting the post-season will become an inevitable reality if TV $$$ is what it's all about. A rotating agenda would serve to benefit ALL schools. If spaced too close to "Arch Madness," there could be a drop off in $$$ for the MVC.



Of could lead to us having to see an alternative venue. I know people love it, but I'm not a fan of St. Louis and would love to see a rotating venue, if possible.


----------



## BankShot

I just don't see a "common denominator" with any of those schools, save basketball...especially under the identity of "Missouri Valley."


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Seems more likely that the eastern schools plus 2 of the 3 you left out might go it alone.  Much less travel for them and some good natural rivalries are already in place.  I just don't see it making much sense for the east or the west divisions to go together.


----------



## bluestreak

I think the St. Louis University people are much closer to the situation than the Creighton. After all they are currently in the Atlantic 10 where most of the current members of the proposed conference are members. The St Louis university AD has been in the discussions from the beginning, don't believe that is the case with Creighton. Other schools mentioned were Marquette (35th market), Xavier (34th market), Dayton (64th Market), Butler (25th), St. Josephs (4th). St. Louis is the 21st largest market. Basically culling out the St. Bonaventure type of schools from the A-10 and cherrypicking other non-BCS football schools with as big TV markets as possible.

Although attendance has fallen off recently, a few years ago they were filling the Scott trade Center and recently built their own 12000 seat arena on campus. When Charlie Spoonhauer was coaching they averaged about 17,000 a game. Butts in the seats are important but the Creighton TV market (71st largest market - 2 spots above Paducah) is nowhere near the St. Louis market. This is *ALL* about TV money.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Sycamore Proud said:


> Seems more likely that the eastern schools plus 2 of the 3 you left out might go it alone.  Much less travel for them and some good natural rivalries are already in place.  I just don't see it making much sense for the east or the west divisions to go together.



In the interests of full disclosure, this wasn't my post.  I don't post on mvcfans.net because most of those people are complete tools.  However,I thought this might be fun to discuss.  I hope it never comes to this with the MVC, but you never know...


----------



## Sycamore Proud

IndyTreeFan said:


> In the interests of full disclosure, this wasn't my post.  I don't post on mvcfans.net because most of those people are complete tools.  However,I thought this might be fun to discuss.  *I hope it never comes to this with the MVC, but you never know*...



You are certainly right with this comment.  I thoroughly enjoy the Valley as it is now.  And decades ago I enjoyed the ICC.  We are Sycamores fans;  we will back the Sycamores no matter where the conference affiliations may take us.


----------



## BrokerZ

I'm not necessarily supporting this specific idea, but if the MVC isn't at least considering expansion then they aren't doing their jobs.  Plain and simple; hogs get slaughtered.  If the MVC decides to be reactive instead of proactive, Creighton, WSU, and any other larger-market school will be poached.  We'll end up picking up scraps from the Ohio Valley Conference if we aren't careful.  

A larger conference means a potential larger TV contract, which leads to more revenue and larger athletic budgets.  That would hopefully, and theoretically, alleviate any travel/budget concerns.  And, the recruiting base could increase with a larger conference footprint. 

I live in Big 12 country, and I've seen first-hand what can happen if a conference's leadership is asleep at the wheel.


----------



## ISUCC

now it appears UCONN and Cincy want to join the C-7 and park football elsewhere

http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=4719

this would make it more difficult for CU to get in this conference. Personally I hope CU remains in the MVC, but if they are asked to join the C-7 who could blame them for going.


----------



## 4Q_iu

ISUCC said:


> now it appears UCONN and Cincy want to join the C-7 and park football elsewhere
> 
> http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=4719
> 
> this would make it more difficult for CU to get in this conference. Personally I hope CU remains in the MVC, but if they are asked to join the C-7 who could blame them for going.



Interesting --- betting there are some UConn folks who are KICKING themselves over the football upgrade from FCS to FBS...

Maybe some of the WESTERN Big East teams join the WAC?! :cheeky:


----------



## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> now it appears UCONN and Cincy want to join the C-7 and park football elsewhere
> 
> http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=4719
> 
> this would make it more difficult for CU to get in this conference. Personally I hope CU remains in the MVC, but if they are asked to join the C-7 who could blame them for going.


I don't know how any conference would let UConn and Cincy "park" football and other sports in their conference without getting their hoops program, too. Not unless they're lower level FBS conferences and those schools wouldn't want to do that as they'd lose BCS Bowl tie ins.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> I don't know how any conference would let UConn and Cincy "park" football and other sports in their conference without getting their hoops program, too. Not unless they're lower level FBS conferences and those schools wouldn't want to do that as they'd lose BCS Bowl tie ins.



Exactly!  With all of the movement/loss in the CAA Football league, I'd bet they love to have UConn back BUT  UConn spent TOO MUCH to upgrade, now their 'ed!   Though if the Big Ten poaches Boston College and Georgia Tech (which as been speculated...) maybe THEN UConn ends up in the ACC...    While UConn fits (somewhat) into the academic view of the Big Ten; I've never heard of ANY speculation about the huskies to the big ten...


----------



## Bluethunder

UCONN and the ACC makes sense.


----------



## Sycamore624

As far as a new tv deal the new Fox Sports 1 Network is supposedly interested in getting several conferences inked to deals.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Looks like they have found a way to get out early. Interesting bargain there.

http://www.vuhoops.com/2013/1/29/39...7-league-to-leave-big-east-start-play-in-2014


----------



## Bally #50

*Butler leaving the A-10? Creighton leaving MVC?*

DELETED. RTV6 reported it, and then converted it to a "teaser." Sorry about that. I thought I could delete the whole thing but I can't.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

ESPN is reporting it as part of the Catholic 7 keeping the Big East name. Say they're bolting with Xavier.


----------



## Bally #50

BRIEFLY, Channel 6 reported that it was a done deal. Then like 5 minutes later, they rescinded it and even though we all think it might happen, that is NOT what I originally saw and it becomes "old" news. It makes a ton of sense for the schools involved and hey, everything else conference-wise is going to change in a year or two, that much we know.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

They do what Butler wants. One of the benefits of being the darling of Indy. Here is that link.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bas...name-new-league-next-season-according-sources


----------



## Bally #50

As they say......we have only seen the tip of the iceberg. All hell breaks loose in the next few months.


----------



## ISUCC

Bally #46 said:


> As they say......we have only seen the tip of the iceberg. All hell breaks loose in the next few *hours*.



fixed it for you Bally.

Seriously, later today this ball is gonna start rolling

As soon as CU announces they're leaving Elgin had better be on the phone with invites to another school, and maybe 3 schools to go to 12


----------



## Bally #50

ISUCC, it would make NO SENSE for Creighton to pass up the opportunity if it offered, would it? Obviously, Butler and Creighton are very similar institutions. University of Dayton would also seem to be a logical addition to the group as well. I feel the MoVal in 5 years will have 50% of the teams it has now (with 5 new members more than likely), but as you say, Elgin BETTER be ready for the big fight because it will be a mess out there, and soon.


----------



## bluestreak

I don't think Creighton is going to be invited into this new league. Despite what the AD's may be saying otherwise, this league is based on one thing and one thing only.....TV money. Creighton is in a far smaller market than any of the other proposed teams - 71st. Hell, they are only two spots above Paducah. Don't think it will happen...But what the hell do I know...


----------



## Bluethunder

Creighton doesnt make as much sense when you consider location as well.  Other than Marquette, these are all pretty much Eastern time zone teams.  Dayton would make sense based on region/location, great basketball tadition, rabid fan base, etc.  i could see Creighton getting invited, but I wouldnt be shocked if they were left at the alter too.


----------



## ISUCC

Bally #46 said:


> ISUCC, it would make NO SENSE for Creighton to pass up the opportunity if it offered, would it? Obviously, Butler and Creighton are very similar institutions. University of Dayton would also seem to be a logical addition to the group as well. I feel the MoVal in 5 years will have 50% of the teams it has now (with 5 new members more than likely), but as you say, Elgin BETTER be ready for the big fight because it will be a mess out there, and soon.



of course Creighton would go if invited, they'd be dumb not to. We'll see though. Sounds like FOX sports will announce the new league Tuesday, so we should know WELL before then which teams will start out in the new league. 

Another scenario that is being tossed around is that Notre Dame will be a member of the C-7 for one year before going to the ACC. ND, plus X and Butler gives them 10 for the first year (if they don't want to go to 12 right away). Then once ND leaves in 2014 that opens the door for CU, Dayton, and St. Louis to join the C-7. It may very well happen that way. 

Would really like to see CU stay in the MVC one more year. 

If they do though, does Elgin ADD to the MVC right away or does he wait for CU to leave in 2014? The A-10 is going to be the first conference affected by all this, so you know they are going to move rapidly to try to add new schools to replace Butler and X. Who do they take?? Detroit? Bradley? They have many more schools to choose from than what the MVC does. My top 2 choices to replace CU are ORU and Denver. BOTH those schools would jump for joy if they received MVC invites. And I think that would make MVC schools and fans happy. Both are private schools and are closer to WSU and MSU. 

If Detroit goes to the A-10, Oakland IMMEDIATELY gets invited to the Horizon League, and that would effectively destroy the Mid Continent conference. 

Like I said this is all gonna happen within a couple days, so pop your popcorn, sit in front of your computer, and watch how it unfolds.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

I asked RP about this during football when it all started becoming rumor, and he assured me that the MVC already has contingency plans in place should the need arise.  The schools in the conference are very happy with our current lineup, but should someone leave, he says they already know what they're going to do.

I truly believe that involves NDSU.  In any case, though, the replacements for Creighton are a bunch of schools who really do nothing for the conference.  I'm not excited about Denver, Oral, Milwaukee, or pretty much any of the schools that are being talked about.  A big splash would be to get Memphis and Cincinnati back in the conference, but they have FBS football, so that'll never happen.

I don't like what I see in the tea leaves.  And yes, I know some of you are thrilled at the prospect of being in the OVC...


----------



## Bally #50

You might be right about Creighton but let's not forget that Omaha is not THAT small a town and they do put 18,000 or so in the stands EVERY game and have been a consistent "over-achiever" in hoops for a long time. I totally agree about the geography part of it looking a bit strange but you are talking BIG money that will minimize that. No worse than West Virginia in the Big XII?


----------



## BrokerZ

Geography means absolutely nothing with conference realignment.  

I've been saying this for over a year - the MVC are better to be proactive than reactive with these changes.  If they wait for CU to leave the conference, we're screwed.  We should be adding two teams NOW.  I'm happy to hear they've at least talked about a contingency plan if some teams were to leave, but why wait?  This is not going away folks.  Teams are changing conferences so frequently I can hardly keep them straight.  The MVC is going to get picked apart if we aren't careful, and we'll end up having to add a bunch of city schools like UMKC and IUPUI in the aftermath if we don't act soon.


----------



## Bally #50

BrokerZ said:


> Geography means absolutely nothing with conference realignment.
> 
> I've been saying this for over a year - the MVC are better to be proactive than reactive with these changes.  If they wait for CU to leave the conference, we're screwed.  We should be adding two teams NOW.  I'm happy to hear they've at least talked about a contingency plan if some teams were to leave, but why wait?  This is not going away folks.  Teams are changing conferences so frequently I can hardly keep them straight.  The MVC is going to get picked apart if we aren't careful, and we'll end up having to add a bunch of city schools like UMKC and IUPUI in the aftermath if we don't act soon.


One last point. Creighton's departure from the MVC is NOT etched in stone and probably at best, the chances are 50-50. I have said it before in reference to coach/athletic director departures, there is something to be said for being "the BIG fish in a SMALL pond," as opposed to being average amongst giants. CU is clearly the class of our league and their programs are prospering at almost all levels. If it ain't broke....?


----------



## BrokerZ

Bally #46 said:


> One last point. Creighton's departure from the MVC is NOT etched in stone and probably at best, the chances are 50-50.



Agreed; nevertheless, the MVC should add teams now.  If the A-10 is truly losing Butler and Xavier, as rumored/reported, then we should be adding St. Louis University right now.  The A-10 is in flux, and we need to take advantage.  St. Louis makes a ton of sense.  We could then add North Dakota State, South Dakota State, and Western Illinois from the Summit League and take us to 14.

Hogs get slaughtered, and the MVC is one of the hogs of the mid-majors.  We have to protect our interests in maintaing a strong basketball conference or CU and WSU will be gone and we'll be merging with the scraps of Ohio Valley in the wake of all of these changes.


----------



## ISUCC

IndyTreeFan said:


> I asked RP about this during football when it all started becoming rumor, and he assured me that the MVC already has contingency plans in place should the need arise.  The schools in the conference are very happy with our current lineup, but should someone leave, he says they already know what they're going to do.
> 
> I truly believe that involves NDSU.  In any case, though, the replacements for Creighton are a bunch of schools who really do nothing for the conference.  I'm not excited about Denver, Oral, Milwaukee, or pretty much any of the schools that are being talked about.  A big splash would be to get Memphis and Cincinnati back in the conference, but they have FBS football, so that'll never happen.
> 
> I don't like what I see in the tea leaves.  And yes, I know some of you are thrilled at the prospect of being in the OVC...



ITF, not to burst your wish bubble, but there is no way, no how the dakota schools receive an invite to the MVC. I have repeatedly stated why this is never going to happen. I'll go over it again. 

1. Bradley, UE, and Drake would ALL vote no, they're private schools, not gonna vote to add more public schools. 

2. ISU, SIU, ILS, MSU all gonna vote "no". Travel costs would increase EXPONENTIALLY for all sports at all schools. It changes the MVC from a bus league (cheaper) to an airline league (waaaay more expensive). Just for ISU alone you're looking at putting softball, baseball, volleyball, and women's basketball on jets to fly up to Canada. AND if they were to host a conference championship, then you're looking at putting track, cross country, women's golf, women's soccer, etc... on airplanes as well. We can barely get by with what we're doing now, let alone increasing costs by having to fly teams all over creation. 

And this isn't a problem with just ISU. SIU, MSU, ILS are in the same boat. UNI may vote yes, but they can bus to Canada from there. WSU? I can't see them voting yes, they are not going to vote yes to admit schools that will downgrade the conference, and that is exactly what would happen. Now we are NOT going to find a school like Creighton to replace them, but WSU is not gonna vote for any dakota school. 

Again, this all comes down to added expenses ISU (and others) will incur by adding schools. The schools we will eventually add will be within bus distance for all the other schools. 

And like I said earlier, Elgin needs to be sending out invite NOW! Especially if he is 100% certain CU is leaving this year or next. Be proactive, NOT reactive.


----------



## ISUCC

NY Post says Creighton going this summer (2013)

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/college/basketball/catholic_big_east_IgiXNYFgm84P9AiafuJtrO


----------



## BrokerZ

ESPN reports: "Fox Sports Network's deal with the Catholic 7 is expected to be worth at least $3 million annually per school, sources said."

The MVC cannot compete with that.  If each school in the new "Big East" will receive $3M annually from the TV deal, Creighton is DEFINITELY gone.


----------



## BrokerZ

ISUCC - if you have a 14-16 team league, the scheduling will not be balanced and travel can be spread out and accomodated accordingly.  Travel for a basketball team is also much less of an issue as it is for a football team.  

I cannot comment on the private schools willingness or unwillingness to vote "yes" for the expansion, though.  I suppose adding St. Louis University in the fold could take care of those problems, but I've yet to consider that argument.


----------



## ISUCC

BrokerZ said:


> ESPN reports: "Fox Sports Network's deal with the Catholic 7 is expected to be worth at least $3 million annually per school, sources said."
> 
> The MVC cannot compete with that.  If each school in the new "Big East" will receive $3M annually from the TV deal, Creighton is DEFINITELY gone.



they would be STUPID to say "no" to that. They're gone. They've done well, so more power to them, however they will struggle to make the NCAA tourney in that new conference (in all sports)


----------



## ISUCC

BrokerZ said:


> ISUCC - if you have a 14-16 team league, the scheduling will not be balanced and travel can be spread out and accommodated accordingly.  Travel for a basketball team is also much less of an issue as it is for a football team.
> 
> I cannot comment on the private schools willingness or unwillingness to vote "yes" for the expansion, though. * I suppose adding St. Louis University in the fold could take care of those problems, but I've yet to consider that argument.*



St. Louis will be in the Big East in 2014, they, along with Dayton, will join in 2014. 

and yes, travel is less for basketball, but you need to remember this isn't just about basketball. Each school needs to take into consideration the increased travel costs for every sports team they sponsor


----------



## BrokerZ

ISUCC said:


> St. Louis will be in the Big East in 2014, they, along with Dayton, will join in 2014.



Says who?  Do you have a link to a story stating as such?  No offense to St. Louis University, but why would the Big East want them?  They'd be great for the MVC, but I don't see them fitting in the Big East.  Maybe I'm missing something here.



ISUCC said:


> and yes, travel is less for basketball, but you need to remember this isn't just about basketball. Each school needs to take into consideration the increased travel costs for every sports team they sponsor



Good point.  I was only focusing on basketball, but my point remains the same that a 14-16 team conference would not allow a balanced schedule and thus travel issues can be spread out.  In theory, a larger conference with a larger footprint would also bring more TV revenue to the conference (and, thus, each school).


----------



## 4Q_iu

There's also chatter in the mid-atlantic that the 'new' Big East will stand pat at 9 schools.   Allows a 16-game conf round robin schedule AND the ability to schedule 12 games for both fodder and 'power matchups'

And even IF dayton and St Louis are invited AND leave...   the Atl-10 would than have 10 teams...  remember, the Atl-10 today is ACTUALLY 16 teams.
Temple is off to the 'old big east';  unc-charlotte to C-USA, now buttler and xavier to the NEW Big East...


----------



## ISUCC

BrokerZ said:


> Says who?  Do you have a link to a story stating as such?  No offense to St. Louis University, but why would the Big East want them?  They'd be great for the MVC, but I don't see them fitting in the Big East.  Maybe I'm missing something here.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point.  I was only focusing on basketball, but my point remains the same that a 14-16 team conference would not allow a balanced schedule and thus travel issues can be spread out.  In theory, a larger conference with a larger footprint would also bring more TV revenue to the conference (and, thus, each school).



no link stating St. Louis to the Big East is a done deal, I did just come across this on the holylandofhoops message board. Take it for what it's worth. 

http://holylandofhoops.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=448&sid=72cf2fce5e061bc5c9c7a390a3490ea1

"I'm being told by someone I trust implicitely that the schools could only agree on Butler and Xavier. That is why they are definitely coming in next year. I have also heard that Georgetown gave Creighton to Marquette and in return, Marquette is going to give Georgetown Richmond for school number 11. The schools are at odds about who should be team #12.

The only reason why Creighton is joining next year vs 2014 with Richmond is because Creighton's exit fee is pretty much nothing and Fox/Catholic 7 are helping with the exit fees.

I guess we will see."

this implies either Dayton or St. Louis would be left out. This just keeps getting more bizarre.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Look, CC, I respect your opinion.  And you may very well be right.  But who would you add to the MVC?  St. Louis is not gonna happen either.  That leaves us with a bunch of nobodies who aren't going to help the MVC in any way, shape or form.  At least NDSU has money and fan support.

Who do you want to see in the MVC?


----------



## ISUCC

IndyTreeFan said:


> Look, CC, I respect your opinion.  And you may very well be right.  But who would you add to the MVC?  St. Louis is not gonna happen either.  That leaves us with a bunch of nobodies who aren't going to help the MVC in any way, shape or form.  At least NDSU has money and fan support.
> 
> Who do you want to see in the MVC?



there are many schools I'd like to see added to the MVC who will keep the conference as a bus league conference. NONE will be equal to Creighton, there are no "Creighton type" schools to add. I am well aware St. Louis is not coming to the MVC, that is a no brainer. Some schools on the list that we'll look at include ORU, Murray State, Belmont, Valpo, Milwaukee, Denver (yes, adding them adds airline flights), even Detroit or Oakland would be worth a look, but those 2 are long shots. 

the dakota territorial schools do have $ and fan support, I never said they didn't. Their location will ALWAYS be the thing that keeps them out of the MVC. Like I have repeatedly said, the current MVC schools are not going to vote to admit schools that are going to drastically shrink their already minimal athletic budgets. Just not gonna happen. 

There is ONE instance where I could see it happening though, IF the MVC decided to go crazy and go to a 14-16 school conference, THEN I could see adding them, but knowing Elgin that probably is not going to happen. 

This is all gonna shake out before Tuesday when Fox announces the new league, the schools that will be part of the league, and the television deal.


----------



## 4Q_iu

ISUCC said:


> there are many schools I'd like to see added to the MVC who will keep the conference as a bus league conference. NONE will be equal to Creighton, there are no "Creighton type" schools to add. I am well aware St. Louis is not coming to the MVC, that is a no brainer. Some schools on the list that we'll look at include ORU, Murray State, Belmont, Valpo, Milwaukee, Denver (yes, adding them adds airline flights), even Detroit or Oakland would be worth a look, but those 2 are long shots.
> 
> the dakota territorial schools do have $ and fan support, I never said they didn't. Their location will ALWAYS be the thing that keeps them out of the MVC. Like I have repeatedly said, the current MVC schools are not going to vote to admit schools that are going to drastically shrink their already minimal athletic budgets. Just not gonna happen.
> 
> There is ONE instance where I could see it happening though, IF the MVC decided to go crazy and go to a 14-16 school conference, THEN I could see adding them, but knowing Elgin that probably is not going to happen.
> 
> This is all gonna shake out before Tuesday when Fox announces the new league, the schools that will be part of the league, and the television deal.



Remind me why No for the Billikens? 

Oral Roberts - Yes, Belmont, Valpo -- Yes; Murray? No.  Milwaukee? No


----------



## ISUCC

4Q_iu said:


> *Remind me why No for the Billikens?*
> 
> Oral Roberts - Yes, Belmont, Valpo -- Yes; Murray? No.  Milwaukee? No



because 99.9% sure they will be invited to join the new Big East. It will be a MIRACLE if they are not asked. Now I did see a new thread on holylandofhoops that Dayton will be left out in favor of Richmond? I don't know about that, there is a LOT of crazy stuff being posted on message boards this afternoon. 

If Dayton were left out then Elgin had better make a pitch to get them in the MVC. How likely that would be, I don't know? I would think Dayton would want to stay affiliated with an east coast conference, therefore staying in the A-10. 

If (miraculously) both Dayton and St. Louis were left out of the C-7, then that would mean Creighton would probably be left out too. That has about a 1% chance of happening.


----------



## 4Q_iu

ISUCC said:


> because 99.9% sure they will be invited to join the new Big East. It will be a MIRACLE if they are not asked. Now I did see a new thread on holylandofhoops that Dayton will be left out in favor of Richmond? I don't know about that, there is a LOT of crazy stuff being posted on message boards this afternoon.
> 
> If Dayton were left out then Elgin had better make a pitch to get them in the MVC. How likely that would be, I don't know? I would think Dayton would want to stay affiliated with an east coast conference, therefore staying in the A-10.
> 
> If (miraculously) both Dayton and St. Louis were left out of the C-7, then that would mean Creighton would probably be left out too. That has about a 1% chance of happening.



I've no idea if Creighton, Dayton or St Louis will be asked to join.   John Feinstein is hanging his hat on Richmond OR Siena.  Creighton has received little to NO mention by him.

Georgetown is basically driving this train; with Villanova weighing in to be the ONLY Phila-based Catholic school in this conference.
And from what I've read in Wash Post, other mid-atl sites.   the 'new big east' won't be more than say 10 or maybe 12 schools.  The Catholic 7 want to have a home/home series with each school.  Get to 12 and that's 22 games.  So THAT won't happen.  10 might be a stretch because that's 18 games which leaves 10 for fodder/auto wins AND 'power games.'

time will tell


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Valpo?  Oh hell no!  Just what we need in the MVC, a team that plays in a pseudo-high school gym.

I would be cool with Belmont, they also add a potential TV market in Nashville, and remember, TV markets are a big deal in all of this.

Dayton?  Oh hell yes!  I don't see it happening, though.  As you said, CC, they most likely want the East Coast exposure.

And just for the record, I would only be in favor of adding NDSU.  NORTH Dakota is swimming in money right now.  South Dakota doesn't hold the same cards.

And I kinda like what someone said on mvcfans, which is that the MVC should only add a school (or schools) that enhance the standing of the conference for NCAA bids.  Otherwise, we're just going to be splitting a smaller pie more ways.  We have damn few options, though, for that.


----------



## ISUCC

IndyTreeFan said:


> Valpo?  Oh hell no!  Just what we need in the MVC, a team that plays in a pseudo-high school gym.
> 
> I would be cool with Belmont, they also add a potential TV market in Nashville, and remember, TV markets are a big deal in all of this.
> 
> Dayton?  Oh hell yes!  I don't see it happening, though.  As you said, CC, they most likely want the East Coast exposure.
> 
> And just for the record, I would only be in favor of adding NDSU.  NORTH Dakota is swimming in money right now.  South Dakota doesn't hold the same cards.
> 
> *And I kinda like what someone said on mvcfans, which is that the MVC should only add a school (or schools) that enhance the standing of the conference for NCAA bids.  Otherwise, we're just going to be splitting a smaller pie more ways.  We have damn few options, though, for that*.



yes, Valpo does have a very small, HS like gym, so that may hold them out. Don't know that for sure. 

and yes, any team(s) added into the MVC need to be able to enhance NCAA bids, but you're right, there are very few options for that right now. Maybe we'll get lucky and the new Big East won't add who we all expect them to add, then the MVC can be PROACTIVE and add some schools we never expected we'd be able to add. 

Who knows?? I guess we'll know more by Tuesday. Grab your popcorn and watch


----------



## IndyTreeFan

ISUCC said:


> yes, Valpo does have a very small, HS like gym, so that may hold them out. Don't know that for sure.
> 
> and yes, any team(s) added into the MVC need to be able to enhance NCAA bids, but you're right, there are very few options for that right now. Maybe we'll get lucky and the new Big East won't add who we all expect them to add, then the MVC can be PROACTIVE and add some schools we never expected we'd be able to add.
> 
> *Who knows?? I guess we'll know more by Tuesday. Grab your popcorn and watch*



Amen to that!


----------



## ISUCC

nothing decided in Atlanta today. 

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/194386971.html


----------



## Gotta Hav

ISUCC said:


> yes, Valpo does have a very small, HS like gym, so that may hold them out. Don't know that for sure.



How would that hold them out compared to Drakes 7,000 seat gym?  Valpo's gym seats 5,000.....but even though they have a small College gym, at least they fill theirs....versus us with a full sized College gym that seats 10,500 but with less than a High School size crowd.   So which is worse, a sold out gym of 5,000 or 4,200 people in a more than half empty 10,500 seat arena?

Anyway, you and I and anyone else reading this knows the answer.


----------



## treeman

We averaged about 5800 this season....


----------



## ISUCC

again, it's being reported ND may stay in the "new" Big East for another year

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...ick-open-joining-catholic-7-league-one-season

"IF" they do this, and the league adds Xavier and Butler, do they stay at 10, and THEN allow 3 more schools to begin conference play in 2014? 

hope everyone has a LOT of popcorn while viewing this!


----------



## bent20

VCU beat Butler by 32 points today. Ouch!


----------



## ISUCC

article in the St. Louis paper about the stability of the MVC. 

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/coll...cle_d8a7b998-4acc-54c4-b560-f5c8d9cee167.html

I suspect we'll all hear something regarding the C-7 tomorrow or Wednesday. Supposedly Fox is supposed to announce the TV package for the new conference. Now whether or not they announce all the new teams or not is up in the air.


----------



## Bally #50

ISUCC said:


> article in the St. Louis paper about the stability of the MVC.
> 
> http://www.stltoday.com/sports/coll...cle_d8a7b998-4acc-54c4-b560-f5c8d9cee167.html
> 
> I suspect we'll all hear something regarding the C-7 tomorrow or Wednesday. Supposedly Fox is supposed to announce the TV package for the new conference. Now whether or not they announce all the new teams or not is up in the air.


Thanks CC for digging that up. Funny, after reading that article, I clearly felt that there nothing in that article we didn't know already and unless you blind, you knew all this was coming well over a year ago, maybe even two. The BEST comment of all came in the "comments" section where the person said without football, why not take the school count up to at least 12. The he said Dayton and St. Louis make a ton of sense if that is the case. Sycamore Pride is well ahead of the curve over that article, no doubt.


----------



## ISUCC

Bally #46 said:


> Thanks CC for digging that up. Funny, after reading that article, I clearly felt that there nothing in that article we didn't know already and unless you blind, you knew all this was coming well over a year ago, maybe even two. The BEST comment of all came in the "comments" section where the person said without football, why not take the school count up to at least 12. The he said Dayton and St. Louis make a ton of sense if that is the case. Sycamore Pride is well ahead of the curve over that article, no doubt.



the MVC needs to stay at 10, it just works best at that #


----------



## BrokerZ

ISUCC said:


> the MVC needs to stay at 10, it just works best at that #



I'm kind of curious why you feel that way.  If the MVC wants to be (or become) the premier mid-major basketball conference, as the article seems to indicate from Elgin's quotes, then why would staying at 10 teams help that come true?  A 14-16 team mid-major super conference would be better, in my opinion.  What's the harm in adding schools now?

Mid-major conferences are "graded" on how many bids they receive each year to the tournament, and which ones are multi-bid leagues.  The MVC, A-10, and Mountain West meet those requirements.  If we want to stay at that level we should be adding teams now and not waiting for Creighton to leverage itself into a better deal in the Big East.  I'll have to trust that Elgin has his ducks in a row, but I'd much rather we be proactive than wait for the best teams to get poached.  You don't think the Big 12 would be a better league if they still had Nebraska, Texas A&M, Colorado and Missouri while also adding West Virgina and TCU to go to 14?  Instead, they waited for those four schools to leave before they acted.


----------



## ISUCC

BrokerZ said:


> I'm kind of curious why you feel that way.  If the MVC wants to be (or become) the premier mid-major basketball conference, as the article seems to indicate from Elgin's quotes, then why would staying at 10 teams help that come true?  A 14-16 team mid-major super conference would be better, in my opinion.  What's the harm in adding schools now?
> 
> Mid-major conferences are "graded" on how many bids they receive each year to the tournament, and which ones are multi-bid leagues.  The MVC, A-10, and Mountain West meet those requirements.  If we want to stay at that level we should be adding teams now and not waiting for Creighton to leverage itself into a better deal in the Big East.  I'll have to trust that Elgin has his ducks in a row, but I'd much rather we be proactive than wait for the best teams to get poached.  You don't think the Big 12 would be a better league if they still had Nebraska, Texas A&M, Colorado and Missouri while also adding West Virgina and TCU to go to 14?  Instead, they waited for those four schools to leave before they acted.



I see what you mean by adding now to prepare for defections, but right now we only know that Creighton is, more than likely, the only team leaving. Now if we KNEW that 2-3 teams were seriously going to leave then yeah, add 2 or 3 now. I just like 10 teams because it allows for everyone to play everyone twice. Also you have to be very careful who, and how many, teams you add. We don't want to add teams that have very little chance to make the NCAA tourney once they're in the MVC. If we go to 12, and those 3 extra teams aren't going to make the NCAA tourney, then we're having to share $$ with deadbeat schools. That's why I prefer schools like Dayton, Belmont, Murray State, ORU, Valpo. They've been to the NCAA tourney and have proven success and I believe they'd do well in the MVC right away.

BTW, Elgin is gonna be on Omaha's espn radio station here in about 25 minutes, so I'll listen and report back if he reveals anything we don't already know


----------



## 4Q_iu

BrokerZ said:


> I'm kind of curious why you feel that way.  If the MVC wants to be (or become) the premier mid-major basketball conference, as the article seems to indicate from Elgin's quotes, then why would staying at 10 teams help that come true?  A 14-16 team mid-major super conference would be better, in my opinion.  What's the harm in adding schools now?
> 
> Mid-major conferences are "graded" on how many bids they receive each year to the tournament, and which ones are multi-bid leagues.  The MVC, A-10, and Mountain West meet those requirements.  If we want to stay at that level we should be adding teams now and not waiting for Creighton to leverage itself into a better deal in the Big East.  I'll have to trust that Elgin has his ducks in a row, but I'd much rather we be proactive than wait for the best teams to get poached.  You don't think the Big 12 would be a better league if they still had Nebraska, Texas A&M, Colorado and Missouri while also adding West Virgina and TCU to go to 14?  Instead, they waited for those four schools to leave before they acted.



Well the biggest reason for staying at 10 schools; you get a home/home with EVERY conf school.    Has going from 10 to 16 for the Atlantic 10 REALLY improved that CONFERENCE?  arguably; some schools have improved but the Atl-10 is shedding schools pretty quickly too.

The ADVANTAGE the Atl-10 has; the 'close proximity' of ALL of its schools...  if/when all of the western schools leave and UNC-Charlotte leaves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_10_Conference... there back to 10... do they add?  from...  the Colonial?  Patriot??

And the Big 12 has 1 school to thank for tanking the conference, it's spelled g-r-e-e-d-y   r-a-t  b-a-s-t-a-r-d-s    u-n-i-v.-  t-e-x-a-s
Every one of the 4 you mentioned would likely STILL be in the conference if utexas was so freakin' greedy.   Colo may have left but the other three... blame texas


----------



## Bally #50

CC, I would love to hear what Commissioner Elgin has to say, ESPECIALLY in Omaha about all of this and look forward to hearing back from you after you listen. As I have expressed early and often on SP, I would love to see the Dayton Flyers end up having to do "something" because the A-10 is crashing and burning and end up in the MVC. UD and Creighton are very similar institutions and the Flyers draw 13K most every game as well.


----------



## 4Q_iu

ISUCC said:


> I see what you mean by adding now to prepare for defections, but right now we only know that Creighton is, more than likely, the only team leaving. Now if we KNEW that 2-3 teams were seriously going to leave then yeah, add 2 or 3 now. I just like 10 teams because it allows for everyone to play everyone twice. Also you have to be very careful who, and how many, teams you add. We don't want to add teams that have very little chance to make the NCAA tourney once they're in the MVC. If we go to 12, and those 3 extra teams aren't going to make the NCAA tourney, then we're having to share $$ with deadbeat schools. That's why I prefer schools like Dayton, Belmont, Murray State, ORU, Valpo. They've been to the NCAA tourney and have proven success and I believe they'd do well in the MVC right away.
> 
> BTW, Elgin is gonna be on Omaha's espn radio station here in about 25 minutes, so I'll listen and report back if he reveals anything we don't already know



Agree, if ONLY Creighton leaves; we don't need another football school, we need a MBB school.

ORU, Belmont or Valpo (despite Valpos'  "high school" gym...

btw... as to tv/and tv eyes...  Belmont is in the 38th largest MSA in the country; ORU is in the 55th and Creighton is in the 59th...  Valpo is considered in the Chicago MSA... 3rd in the country.  Now, the HARD question...   which school ACTUALLY draws in TV eyes??


----------



## ISUCC

well, just tuned in and they stated they are ONLY going to talk to Elgin about the MVC tournament. They are NOT going to talk one bit about MVC expansion, so....., so much for that. I'll listen anyway to see if they say anything.


----------



## ISUCC

4Q_iu said:


> Agree, if ONLY Creighton leaves; we don't need another football school, we need a MBB school.
> 
> ORU, Belmont or Valpo (despite Valpos'  "high school" gym...
> 
> btw... as to tv/and tv eyes...  Belmont is in the 38th largest MSA in the country; ORU is in the 55th and Creighton is in the 59th...  Valpo is considered in the Chicago MSA... 3rd in the country.  Now, the HARD question...   which school ACTUALLY draws in TV eyes??



the remaining private schools (BU, UE, Drake) are more than likely going to only vote for another private school to be admitted to the MVC. And our best options (ORU, Dayton, Belmont, Valpo) are all private schools (that focus on basketball). The MVC IS a basketball first conference, so we need to add a school whose priority is BASKETBALL. I'll add Murray State to the list too because they focus more on BB than FB.


----------



## 4Q_iu

ISUCC said:


> the remaining private schools (BU, UE, Drake) are more than likely going to only vote for another private school to be admitted to the MVC. And our best options (ORU, Dayton, Belmont, Valpo) are all private schools (that focus on basketball). The MVC IS a basketball first conference, so we need to add a school whose priority is BASKETBALL. I'll add Murray State to the list too because they focus more on BB than FB.



Dayton is my FIRST choice but I think they stand pat in the atl-10 unless the NEW big east does land them...

again, most rumors here in mid-atl have new big east staying at 10 schools...


----------



## Bally #50

ISUCC said:


> well, just tuned in and they stated they are ONLY going to talk to Elgin about the MVC tournament. They are NOT going to talk one bit about MVC expansion, so....., so much for that. I'll listen anyway to see if they say anything.


If he refused to talk about anything other than the tourney in ANY other MVC city, I'd accuse him of avoiding the issue. Discussing it in Omaha is a bit of a different story. It's still chicken shit if you ask me.


----------



## ISUCC

Elgin is on now. They are specifically talking only about the MVC regular season and Arch Madness. The announcers said at the top of the show said they were not going to ask Elgin about expansion because he has nothing to add to what is already known. And obviously, anyone who knows anything about the MVC's plans isn't going to say anything. 

Regardless, it sounds like Arch Madness is going to be a LOT of fun, wish I could go.

I don't know if Fox will announce the new TV deal with the C-7 tomorrow, but if not tomorrow then it sounds like Weds., but even if/when they do announce, who knows if they will announce the additional schools to be added to the C-7?


----------



## ISUCC

so Fox announces TV deal tomorrow, then new schools later this week?


----------



## ISUCC

here is the first release about the Fox tv agreement

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/05/s...es-can-challenge-espn.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0


----------



## BrokerZ

4Q_iu said:


> Well the biggest reason for staying at 10 schools; you get a home/home with EVERY conf school.    Has going from 10 to 16 for the Atlantic 10 REALLY improved that CONFERENCE?  arguably; some schools have improved but the Atl-10 is shedding schools pretty quickly too.
> 
> The ADVANTAGE the Atl-10 has; the 'close proximity' of ALL of its schools...  if/when all of the western schools leave and UNC-Charlotte leaves
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_10_Conference... there back to 10... do they add?  from...  the Colonial?  Patriot??
> 
> And the Big 12 has 1 school to thank for tanking the conference, it's spelled g-r-e-e-d-y   r-a-t  b-a-s-t-a-r-d-s    u-n-i-v.-  t-e-x-a-s
> Every one of the 4 you mentioned would likely STILL be in the conference if utexas was so freakin' greedy.   Colo may have left but the other three... blame texas



I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on, well, pretty much your entire post.  Conferences that tout 10 teams are the best because it allows home/home games and balanced scheduling say that because they don't have more than 10 schools.  The Big Ten was all about adding Nebraska so it could have a conference football championship game.  The Big 12 argued that going from 12 to 10 was okay because they would have an outright conference winner every year without having to worry about a championship.  Well, which one is right?  

Of course Elgin is going to say that 10 schools is ideal because the MVC has 10 schools.  If we had 14-16, he'd be talking about how great it is to have such a deep and talented conference.  You think 10 is better, I think 14-16 is better.

And, yes, the A-10 has improved considerably.  Now, they are getting picked-apart by the new Big East, but the A-10 as it stands today is a terrific conference and one to be envied.

In my opinion, Nebraska, Colorado, A&M, and Missouri left because of money and because of the instability in the conference.  Texas was heavy-handed with their own TV network negotiations, but all of those schools left because just about EVERY Big 12 school was rumored to be leaving.  Why stay in an unstable Big 12 when Missour can move to a guarantee of stability in the SEC; even if that means getting their asses handed to them in football every year?  Why would Wichita State want to stay in the MVC if Creighton leaves when they can probably move to another conference with more guaranteed stability?

You can't stop progress once it starts.  Schools are changing conferences and the MVC will not be immune.


----------



## 4Q_iu

BrokerZ said:


> I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on, well, pretty much your entire post.  Conferences that tout 10 teams are the best because it allows home/home games and balanced scheduling say that because they don't have more than 10 schools.  The Big Ten was all about adding Nebraska so it could have a conference football championship game.  The Big 12 argued that going from 12 to 10 was okay because they would have an outright conference winner every year without having to worry about a championship.  Well, which one is right?



I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on, well, pretty much your entire post.  The Big Ten (12, 14) added Nebraska because they felt they NEEDED to add a Fball title game to 'keep pace the SEC and Big 12 (10).   This entire mess was created with Arkansas left the SWC for the SEC and the SWC fell apart.



BrokerZ said:


> Of course Elgin is going to say that 10 schools is ideal because the MVC has 10 schools.  If we had 14-16, he'd be talking about how great it is to have such a deep and talented conference.  You think 10 is better, I think 14-16 is better.


In All Honesty, the difference is the Power 6, 'BCS Conferences' and everyone else.  TV eyes follow the Big /BCS 6. Period.  And if you're not playing FBall in one of those 6 (soon to be 4) conferences, you're not part of the TV conversation.



BrokerZ said:


> And, yes, the A-10 has improved considerably.  Now, they are getting picked-apart by the new Big East, but the A-10 as it stands today is a terrific conference and one to be envied.



If the A-10 was so great, it wouldn't be picked apart by the "new Big East"...  which only exists because the ACC picked apart the old Big East, which was a MBB on NorthEastern TV conference until Mike Tranghese sold their souls to the FBall devil.




BrokerZ said:


> In my opinion, Nebraska, Colorado, A&M, and Missouri left because of money and because of the instability in the conference.  Texas was heavy-handed with their own TV network negotiations, but all of those schools left because just about EVERY Big 12 school was rumored to be leaving.  Why stay in an unstable Big 12 when Missour can move to a guarantee of stability in the SEC; even if that means getting their asses handed to them in football every year?  Why would Wichita State want to stay in the MVC if Creighton leaves when they can probably move to another conference with more guaranteed stability?



The instability in the Big 12 was due to Texas' greed.  They started the Longhorn network, planned to keep all of the money AND they wanted two dips out of the Big 12 coffers.  (AND those greedy  s wanted the same deal to move to the Pac-12!  Which is why they are still in the Big 12 (10)!

Name me a conference at the MVC level that would take Wichita State without a FBall team?   NONE.  Wichita State can yak all they want but without FBall, they aren't going anywhere 'better' than the MVC.  I'm still not sold on the Jays to the new Big East.  It could happen but I'll wait until I see it happen.



BrokerZ said:


> You can't stop progress once it starts.  Schools are changing conferences and the MVC will not be immune.


  Call this progess if you want but HERE'S what NO ONE is talking about.  When the Big East is split into the new (old) Big East and the rest of the leftovers become the...  Random Gathering of 2nd tier fball schools Conference aka RGo2TFSC)  guess what happens...  one more 'at large bid' in the 68-team MBB NCAA Tourney disappears.   And what does THAT mean??  Anyone outside of the Power/BCS 6 (4) will have an even HARDER time in getting an at-large bid.


----------



## BrokerZ

4Q_iu said:


> I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on, well, pretty much your entire post.



Well, I'm glad we've agreed on something! :biggrin:


----------



## ISUCC

this article explains what Creighton has to gain from joining the Big East

http://www.omaha.com/article/201303...t-would-move-to-new-league-mean-for-creighton


----------



## ISUCC

so looks like we may hear something today (at 4pm EST)


----------



## ISUCC

Fox Sports 1 Network official release:

http://msn.foxsports.com/other/story/FOX-Sports-announces-FOX-Sports-1-network-030513

now we'll see if anything is released later today about the C-7 additions.


----------



## ISUCC

well, now they say no news today


----------



## ISUCC

now this, sure wish they'd just get this over with and announce who's moving and who isn't.

The so-called Catholic 7, which is expected to add at least two more members before it begins competition in the 2013-14 school year, is made up of Georgetown, St. John's, Villanova, Seton Hall, Providence, Marquette and DePaul. *Butler, Xavier and Creighton also will join the league, which will begin play in 2013, sources told McMurphy.*

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...ose-110-million-league-split-according-report


----------



## BrokerZ

ISUCC said:


> now this, sure wish they'd just get this over with and announce who's moving and who isn't.
> 
> The so-called Catholic 7, which is expected to add at least two more members before it begins competition in the 2013-14 school year, is made up of Georgetown, St. John's, Villanova, Seton Hall, Providence, Marquette and DePaul. *Butler, Xavier and Creighton also will join the league, which will begin play in 2013, sources told McMurphy.*
> 
> http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...ose-110-million-league-split-according-report



And so it begins.  Elgin- you better start to work your magic


----------



## region rat

It's all about the $$$$$$$$$$, you cannot blame them for leaving the MVC--it is "right" thing for them to do.


----------



## Bally #50

You can look at it another way, it moves us up a notch in the standings.


----------



## ISUCC

long gone said:


> It's all about the $$$$$$$$$$, you cannot blame them for leaving the MVC--it is "right" thing for them to do.



despite the increased travel costs for all their sports teams, and the downgrade in baseball, they will be swimming in a lot more money than they would ever get by staying in the MVC


----------



## Bally #50

Funny. I tried to delete this as "old" news because a local media outlet sounded like they had "breaking news" originally and then it turned into a teaser. 65 threads later, it is STILL going on. Hopefully, we'll get this story wrapped up in a day or two. To Butler, UD and Creighton, if someone offered Indiana State a spot in the New Big East, we'd do it in a heartbeat. Hope it works out for the three of you. Pretty fricking exciting if you asked me.


----------



## ISUCC

well, no news yet today, will we hear something this week?? Not sure????


----------



## ISUCC

reading the board over on holylandofhoops gives one the impression something will be announced this week. 

But look at this map, and look how far of an outlier Creighton will be. Yes, the money they will receive will be great, but think about the students in all their sports, and all the travel they're going to have to endure to get to these other schools. With the exception of St. Louis, they are going to have to fly EVERYWHERE and miss a lot of class time. They are going to be like West Virginia in the Big XII. From what I've read WVU is not too happy with having to send all their sports teams on cross country airline flights to get to the Big XII schools. CU is going to be in the same boat. 

http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/sports/college/curran-knows-catholic-7-have-tough-job/nWjNs/


----------



## Bally #50

Let's not forget that ISU traveled to Las Cruces, New Mexico for quite a long time and back in those days, nobody seemed to complain. It didn't do much for the fans that would rarely travel there but let's be honest, how many of you have traveled to Springfield or Wichita? Trust me when I say that the extra bucks being paid out for road games is quickly going to be made up by the larger contracts in basketball.


----------



## region rat

ISUCC said:


> reading the board over on holylandofhoops gives one the impression something will be announced this week.
> 
> But look at this map, and look how far of an outlier Creighton will be. Yes, the money they will receive will be great, but think about the students in all their sports, and all the travel they're going to have to endure to get to these other schools. With the exception of St. Louis, they are going to have to fly EVERYWHERE and miss a lot of class time. They are going to be like West Virginia in the Big XII. From what I've read WVU is not too happy with having to send all their sports teams on cross country airline flights to get to the Big XII schools. CU is going to be in the same boat.
> 
> http://www.daytondailynews.com/news/sports/college/curran-knows-catholic-7-have-tough-job/nWjNs/



Creighton is a private school that is probably more akin to Notre Dame and those who attend probably have the $$$$ to fly where ever they want.  If they can win it will be less of an issue for their fans.  Moreover they will be on the tube more often.


----------



## ISUCC

long gone said:


> Creighton is a private school that is probably more akin to Notre Dame and those who attend probably have the $$$$ to fly where ever they want.  If they can win it will be less of an issue for their fans.  Moreover they will be on the tube more often.



I agree with that regarding basketball. My point was about all their other sports teams that are going to all need to fly everywhere. Baseball, softball, m & w soccer, volleyball, tennis, cross country (to the conference meet), golf (to the conference meet). Those athletes are going to be spending a LOT of time in airports trucking to the east coast.


----------



## region rat

ISUCC said:


> I agree with that regarding basketball. My point was about all their other sports teams that are going to all need to fly everywhere. Baseball, softball, m & w soccer, volleyball, tennis, cross country (to the conference meet), golf (to the conference meet). Those athletes are going to be spending a LOT of time in airports trucking to the east coast.



Agree but fame and fortune awaits them if they get in.


----------



## BrokerZ

ISUCC said:


> I agree with that regarding basketball. My point was about all their other sports teams that are going to all need to fly everywhere. Baseball, softball, m & w soccer, volleyball, tennis, cross country (to the conference meet), golf (to the conference meet). Those athletes are going to be spending a LOT of time in airports trucking to the east coast.



Schools can pretend that they care about the student-athlete first, but your point is absolutely contrary to that claim.  In the end, the $3M Creighton will receive annually from the Fox TV deal (if that figure, as reported, is true) will make up for any additional travel costs and then some.  The amount of class the women's volleyball team will miss having to travel to New York to play St. John's is, unfortunately, the least of their concerns.  This is exactly why I laugh everytime the NCAA and these conference talk about how much they care about their student-athletes first.  They care about money first, money second, money third...


----------



## region rat

BrokerZ said:


> Schools can pretend that they care about the student-athlete first, but your point is absolutely contrary to that claim.  In the end, the $3M Creighton will receive annually from the Fox TV deal (if that figure, as reported, is true) will make up for any additional travel costs and then some.  The amount of class the women's volleyball team will miss having to travel to New York to play St. John's is, unfortunately, the least of their concerns.  This is exactly why I laugh everytime the NCAA and these conference talk about how much they care about their student-athletes first.  They care about money first, money second, money third...



Interesting but really only a small problem based on what goes on with our money and our government now and in the past--a much bigger concern.


----------



## Parsons

Bluejay Cafe is reporting that Creighton will be joining the Big East. TOO BAD!!


----------



## ISUCC

Parsons said:


> Bluejay Cafe is reporting that Creighton will be joining the Big East. TOO BAD!!



worst kept secret ever, and it really is too bad, I will miss Creighton on the schedule, they're a very competitive school. 

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...s-agreement-leave-big-east-summer-sources-say


----------



## sycamore tuff

Parsons said:


> Bluejay Cafe is reporting that Creighton will be joining the Big East. TOO BAD!!



If we don't win it all this weekend I hope we can at least win 2.  It would be nice to send them on their journey with a loss from the Sycamores.


----------



## Title_BU

BrokerZ said:


> Schools can pretend that they care about the student-athlete first, but your point is absolutely contrary to that claim.  In the end, the $3M Creighton will receive annually from the Fox TV deal (if that figure, as reported, is true) will make up for any additional travel costs and then some.  The amount of class the women's volleyball team will miss having to travel to New York to play St. John's is, unfortunately, the least of their concerns.  This is exactly why I laugh everytime the NCAA and these conference talk about how much they care about their student-athletes first.  They care about money first, money second, money third...



The offer is $40mm per school per year.  For next year that is 40/10, thereafter it is 40/12 = 3.33mm.  However, it was updated yesterday that Fox will be throwing in another 10mm next year to offset all the costs that we are taking on to mitigate the process (BU and XU have 2 mm exit fees, for example)

So, next year is 50mm/10 = 5 million per school

They are paying so much because Speed (80mm households) is becoming Fox Sports 1 and Fuel (26mm households) is becoming Fox Sports 2 and the Big East will be their primary winter content broadcasting most games nationally on the two new stations or for the minor matchups of the regional networks (like Fox Sports Midwest)

Its effectively the model ESPN employed, ironically, with the Big East during the 80s build-up.

------> http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=5519


----------



## BrokerZ

Title_BU said:


> The offer is $40mm per school per year.  For next year that is 40/10, thereafter it is 40/12 = 3.33mm.  However, it was updated yesterday that Fox will be throwing in another 10mm next year to offset all the costs that we are taking on to mitigate the process (BU and XU have 2 mm exit fees, for example)
> 
> So, next year is 50mm/10 = 5 million per school
> 
> They are paying so much because Speed (80mm households) is becoming Fox Sports 1 and Fuel (26mm households) is becoming Fox Sports 2 and the Big East will be their primary winter content broadcasting most games nationally on the two new stations or for the minor matchups of the regional networks (like Fox Sports Midwest)
> 
> Its effectively the model ESPN employed, ironically, with the Big East during the 80s build-up.
> 
> ------> http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=5519



Interesting.  Good info.


----------



## Bluethunder

All of the top men in our society worked and worked and worked, and finally, FINALLY, they were able to come up with a name for the new football conference.  Almost as good as the "Legends and Leaders" in the Big Ten,.......

http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/story?storyId=9028021


----------



## 4Q_iu

Here are 6 schools I glanced at; all are 'close' to the current Valley footprint, would put the Valley into larger/new TV markets.
ORU may be very happy in the Southland...  okla being similiar to tx, ark in recruiting, media, etc

*School      Arena         Capacity

*Belmont        Curb Event Center        5,000
Loyola - Ill     Jos J. Gentile Center    4,486
Oral Roberts   Mabee Center            10,575
Valparaiso      Athletics - Rec Center 5,000
Detroit          Calihan Hall                8,295
Murray State  CFSB Center              8,825


----------



## Bluethunder

Valpo is my first choice, followed by Murray State.  I know others will disagree, but......


----------



## region rat

My picks to replace are Akron, Austin Peay, Belmont, Central Michigan, Chicago State, Dayton,  Eastern Illinois, IUPUI, Loyola--Illinois, Morehead State,  Murray State, Ohio, St. Louis, Tulsa, Valpo, Western Ky, Western Michigan, and Wright State.


----------



## ISUCC

I think that it's generally safe to say that whoever replaces CU will be a private school that emphasizes basketball and preferably has a baseball team.


----------



## Bluethunder

Would love to add Dayton, but I dont think the league wants to expand that far east.  Not sure Dayton would want to travel that far west either.


----------



## dino

Bluethunder said:


> Would love to add Dayton, but I dont think the league wants to expand that far east.  Not sure Dayton would want to travel that far west either.


couldnt be much worse than dayton having to travel to rhode island and north carolina


----------



## 4Q_iu

dino said:


> couldnt be much worse than dayton having to travel to rhode island and north carolina



much worse??  Sheesh --- Dayton would probably SAVE money by a move to the Valley.  Virtually NO flying; especially to the East Coast, Mid-Atlantic.

to get to Creighton, Dayton will fly over ALL of the MVC footprint


----------



## ISUCC

4Q_iu said:


> much worse??  Sheesh --- Dayton would probably SAVE money by a move to the Valley.  Virtually NO flying; especially to the East Coast, Mid-Atlantic.
> 
> to get to Creighton, Dayton will fly over ALL of the MVC footprint



I posted a question to Dayton fans over on holylandofhoops regarding what they think their president would prefer to do if they are left out of the new Big East. Most seemed to think they would stay in the A-10, the reason being they get greater exposure to potential east coast students by staying in an east coast conference. I see their point. The Dayton name reaches far more potential students on the east coast vs. being in a midwestern conference such as the MVC. 

Now what would really be nice, but will NEVER happen, would be to get Dayton AND Wright State to join the MVC. That would be great, but again, will NEVER happen


----------



## ISUCC

the official announcement

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9031167/catholic-7-leaving-big-east-june-30

but no official word of additional schools.....yet


----------



## nwi stater

I like that since I live in Valpo:biggrin:





Bluethunder said:


> Valpo is my first choice, followed by Murray State.  I know others will disagree, but......


----------



## ISUCC

ok, here is a USA Today article about who the MVC is considering. 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...creighton-replacement-belmont-denver/1973937/


----------



## tjbison

ISUCC said:


> ok, here is a USA Today article about who the MVC is considering.
> 
> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...creighton-replacement-belmont-denver/1973937/



If its Denver then there is a concern on my part of our need to split west to the Big Sky for our programs, Summit becomes nothing and the Big Sky would love a travel partner with UND, that would ultimately force USD and SDSU to look west also.

Sucks but that might be the path


----------



## ISUCC

what the other MVC beat writers are predicting. 

http://blogs.kansas.com/lutz/2013/03/08/mvc-writers-speak/


----------



## mohoops247

> According to a person with direct knowledge of the league's thinking, Denver and Belmont would have significant support as candidates to replace Creighton, with *Loyola (Ill.) also getting consideration* and Oral Roberts looming as a longshot with less support....*Loyola is intriguing because it would give the Valley an entrée into the Chicago area*



I'd love to see this, obviously for personal reasons as my youngest brother plays there.  However, I do think Loyola would turn out to be a good fit in the MVC.  Great state-of-the-art new arena, non-football school, fits in current footprint but also adds a team in downtown Chicago market, private school with enrollment comparative to MVC schools, and a new administration that is pumping money, energy, and resources into reviving the athletic programs.  The basketball team doesn't have much recent success, but I think that is about to change in the near future as the team was the 6th youngest in Division 1 this year and finished 15-16 (7 of those losses by a shot in the final 10 seconds).


----------



## meistro

I 'd like to see us go to 12 teams by adding Loyola, Belmont and ORU. That would get us into 3 good tv markets.


----------



## ISUCC

meistro said:


> I 'd like to see us go to 12 teams by adding Loyola, Belmont and ORU. That would get us into 3 good tv markets.



I was of the thinking that we just add 1 school and remain at 10, less $$ to have to spread around to other schools. But if we'd add Denver, Belmont, and Loyola, UI-C, Valpo, or Murray State to get to 12, then I could live w/ that.


----------



## ISUCC

Belmont AD denies talks with MVC, of course he would. I guess that means they're in! ha!

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20130309/SPORTS06/303090057/2072/sports?nclick_check=1


----------



## ISUCC

nothing new, other than ND announcing they will be in the ACC next season, so they will NOT be in the new C-7 league, which begins play this Fall. 

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...-east-agree-irish-exit-2-years-early-join-acc

Who knows when the C-7 will announce the additional schools they will be adding?? Will it be this week? After the NCAA tourney? Who knows?? And then how soon does the MVC poach another school?


----------



## BrokerZ

This will be interesting to see how it plays out.  EVERY Creighton fan I talked to in St. Louis spoke like this was a done deal.  All of them were talking about how they made coming to the tournament a priority this year since getting to New York would be much tougher next year, and they wanted to see CU in their final MVC game.

Oh, and they all said CU is a Final Four team.  They are a confident/arrogant bunch.


----------



## ISUCC

BrokerZ said:


> This will be interesting to see how it plays out.  EVERY Creighton fan I talked to in St. Louis spoke like this was a done deal.  All of them were talking about how they made coming to the tournament a priority this year since getting to New York would be much tougher next year, and they wanted to see CU in their final MVC game.
> 
> Oh, and they all said CU is a Final Four team.  They are a confident/arrogant bunch.



Final 4 in the MVC tournament maybe!

If they were to make the NCAA final 4, then that's a boatload of extra $$ that will be coming ISU's way.


----------



## 4Q_iu

ISUCC said:


> nothing new, other than ND announcing they will be in the ACC next season, so they will NOT be in the new C-7 league, which begins play this Fall.
> 
> http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...-east-agree-irish-exit-2-years-early-join-acc
> 
> Who knows when the C-7 will announce the additional schools they will be adding?? Will it be this week? After the NCAA tourney? Who knows?? And then how soon does the MVC poach another school?



Hmmm...  it's probably me but I read that story as nd saying 'hey..  we REALLY want to stay in the Catholic 7; we'll find a way to bow out of the ACC...'

and the Catholic 7 aka Big East saying (finally... "hey, nd; go  yourself.  YOU'RE as much to blame for the DEATH of the original Big East.  Now go suck it in the ACC.")

From Today's USA Today: 

_*To that point, Notre Dame coach Mike Brey said the Fighting Irish initially explored joining the Catholic 7. They could begin competition in the ACC next season*.

Brey spent eight years as an assistant in the ACC, at Duke, but has come to appreciate the soul of the Big East tournament. And he said he will cherish the last one, even as he harbors disappointment over the breakup. 

"Sometimes," Brey said, "I want to ask, 'Which football caveman did this to basketball? Can you tell me? I just would like to know.' "_

HA!  Brey...  he's such a  hypocritical ass-clown" 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...dition-in-last-conference-tournament/1977077/


----------



## 4Q_iu

mohoops247 said:


> I'd love to see this, obviously for personal reasons as my youngest brother plays there.  However, I do think Loyola would turn out to be a good fit in the MVC.  Great state-of-the-art new arena, non-football school, fits in current footprint but also adds a team in downtown Chicago market, private school with enrollment comparative to MVC schools, and a new administration that is pumping money, energy, and resources into reviving the athletic programs.  The basketball team doesn't have much recent success, but I think that is about to change in the near future as the team was the 6th youngest in Division 1 this year and finished 15-16 (7 of those losses by a shot in the final 10 seconds).



the more I look at it / study it; I think I'd like Valpo for a team today; loyola (IL) for a team tomorrow...

loyola has a deeper/richer MBB history; the current coach Porter Moser is a former MVC player (creighton), ass;t (creighton) and HC (Ill State)

loyola has a student population of 15K+, ~$350M endowment and plays in a TV market that is #3 in the country...   
they like creighton are a jesuit college (maintains the "true current" flavor of the league!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

I honestly don't want non-football schools when we add back to the MVC. That, IMO, is what makes the Valley unbalanced in the first place. 

If someone can make a compelling argument on how to level the playing field between football and non-football schools within the Valley, I'm all ears. The fact that Creighton and Wichita State can pay their head coaches over a million per year doesn't sit well for me. Until I hear something that makes sense, my ultimate conference goal would be towards unifying the MVC and MVFC into one organization.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> I honestly don't want non-football schools when we add back to the MVC. That, IMO, is what makes the Valley unbalanced in the first place.
> 
> If someone can make a compelling argument on how to level the playing field between football and non-football schools within the Valley, I'm all ears. The fact that Creighton and Wichita State can pay their head coaches over a million per year doesn't sit well for me. Until I hear something that makes sense, my ultimate conference goal would be towards unifying the MVC and MVFC into one organization.



What would you propose?  Boot Wichita out of the Valley and replace with another MVFC school?

OR direct wichita to BEGIN MVFC football play?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> What would you propose? Boot Wichita out of the Valley and replace with another MVFC school?
> 
> OR direct wichita to BEGIN MVFC football play?



No, I wouldn't boot them or ask them to begin play. I'm simply saying if anyone leaves from this point, like Creighton is rumored to be, that the replacement is a school that fields a FCS football program, scholarship or non-scholarship.


----------



## treeman

4Q_iu said:


> loyola has a student population of 15K+, ~$350M endowment and plays in a TV market that is #3 in the country...
> !



the whole Chicago market thing is a load of crap...Chicago is a professional sports town and will NEVER be a big supporter of college athletics, the same can be said for cities like New York, Boston, Denver, etc. and for those of you that don't believe me there are already 2 schools that play in the BIG10 and Big East i don't know why you would think loyola would be a draw in that city. TV markets are not that big of a deal when it comes to conferences like the MVC. The BCS conferences want markets because of TV deals like the Big Ten network. A conference like the MVC needs programs that will raise the perception of the conference and earn the conference NCAA tourney bids (that is how we get our money). i would love to see the MVC get markets that range from 80,000-200,000 and have a loyal, passionate fanbase.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> No, I wouldn't boot them or ask them to begin play. I'm simply saying if anyone leaves from this point, like Creighton is rumored to be, that the replacement is a school that fields a FCS football program, scholarship or non-scholarship.



OK, any idea how much Drake spends on their football team?

And if that's the ideal/goal...  wouldn't Valparaiso be the only school we've discussed?

I've still no interest in Murray.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For Treeman...   we'll have to disagree.

even disregarding the tv argument...  I'd STILL rather have a current population of 15K+ (loyola) than Belmont's 6,600.   
I'd rather have Loyola's $300M+ endowment than Belmont's $70M...

Belmont went 26-6; 14-2 in the OVC  and AVERAGED 2,369 for home games!    Add in the two other games in Nashville (David Libscomb and Tenn St) and the averagle ROCKETS to 2,555.

Loyola averaged 2,572 for their home schedule (incl the DePaul, UIC and No Illinois game); remove the No Ill game since that's outside the city and their avg is 2,670.

PLUS, the Chicago RECRUITING area is VASTLY better than Nashville.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> OK, any idea how much Drake spends on their football team?
> 
> And if that's the ideal/goal...  wouldn't Valparaiso be the only school we've discussed?



In theory, I believe so. 

As for Drake, from what I gather, most of the players are on academic scholarships so they're essentially a scholarship league just without the yearly commitment so they can go under or over as they wish. Below is a list of all of the FCS programs located in the current Valley footprint or immediate surrounding states. 

Eastern Illinois    Panthers    Charleston    Illinois    Ohio Valley    1895    1899
Illinois State    Redbirds    Normal    Illinois    Missouri Valley    1857    1887
Southern Illinois    Salukis    Carbondale    Illinois    Missouri Valley    1869    1913
Western Illinois    Leathernecks    Macomb    Illinois    Missouri Valley    1899    1903
Butler    Bulldogs    Indianapolis    Indiana    Pioneer    1855    1887
Indiana State    Sycamores    Terre Haute    Indiana    Missouri Valley    1865    1896
Valparaiso    Crusaders    Valparaiso    Indiana    Pioneer    1859    1919
Drake    Bulldogs    Des Moines    Iowa    Pioneer    1881    1893
Northern Iowa    Panthers    Cedar Falls    Iowa    Missouri Valley    1876    1895
Eastern Kentucky    Colonels    Richmond    Kentucky    Ohio Valley    1874    1909
Morehead State    Eagles    Morehead    Kentucky    Pioneer    1887    1924
Murray State    Racers    Murray    Kentucky    Ohio Valley    1922    1924
Missouri State    Bears    Springfield    Missouri    Missouri Valley    1905    1909
Southeast Missouri State    Redhawks    Cape Girardeau    Missouri    Ohio Valley    1873    1902
North Dakota    No mascot    Grand Forks    North Dakota    Big Sky    1883    1894
North Dakota State    Bison    Fargo    North Dakota    Missouri Valley    1890    1894
Dayton    Flyers    Dayton    Ohio    Pioneer    1850    1905
Youngstown State    Penguins    Youngstown    Ohio    Missouri Valley    1908    1938
South Dakota    Coyotes    Vermillion    South Dakota    Missouri Valley    1862    1889
South Dakota State    Jackrabbits    Brookings    South Dakota    Missouri Valley    1881    1889

IMO, if we lose one, pick one... I think I try to wrangle Dayton away from what will be left of the A10. That would be my first choice. Second choice would be Valpo and third would be a tie among 4-5 programs.


----------



## treeman

i get what you are saying 4Q but i'm just not buying the whole endowment and enrollment argument look at iupui's endowment and enrollment, very impressive. as far as the Nashville Vs. Chicago argument; i still believe that nashville is a better market to get into. it's a lively city and i think that they "could" average around 5k fans in that city whereas in Chicago there is just no hope for loyola. i know you got a big fish to compete with in Vandy but Belmont has a lot more upside than Loyola IMO.


----------



## prairieclub

I respectfully disagree on the Loyola issue. I think they'd be a fantastic addition.  They are a program on the rise at a school that has recently made a big commitment to basketball. They were a very young team this past year and will be very successful in the near future. They have been recruiting at a high level, and I dont see them slowing down on the recruiting trail under this new staff they have. They have made major inroads with the Indiana HS coaches and have recruited several very good Indiana players. Part of their commitment was building a very nice brand new arena that opened up this year.

Adding Loyola would help all valley schools in a sense. It would make Chicago easier to recruit for the whole league as prospects would always get 1 game a year in Chicago. Loyola would be my #1 choice followed by Belmont. I say this because I don't believe SLU or Dayton would be interested


----------



## 4Q_iu

My preferences in order:

St Louis
Dayton
Loyola
Valpo
Detroit
Belmont

But it sounds like SLU and Dayton are going to be in the neo Big East.  After that, Loyola, then Valpo and Detroit.
Belmont last.

ZERO interest in Denver, Cent Ark or any of the OVC schools outside of Eastern Illinois

I'd rather any of the MVFC Dakota schools join before any other Summit League schools

zero interest in iupui or ipfw aka Ft Wayne Univ


----------



## Sycamore Proud

4Q_iu said:


> OK, any idea how much Drake spends on their football team?
> 
> And if that's the ideal/goal...  wouldn't Valparaiso be the only school we've discussed?
> 
> I've still no interest in Murray.
> 
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> For Treeman...   we'll have to disagree.
> 
> even disregarding the tv argument...  I'd STILL rather have a current population of 15K+ (loyola) than Belmont's 6,600.
> I'd rather have Loyola's $300M+ endowment than Belmont's $70M...
> 
> Belmont went 26-6; 14-2 in the OVC  and AVERAGED 2,369 for home games!    Add in the two other games in Nashville (David Libscomb and Tenn St) and the averagle ROCKETS to 2,555.
> 
> Loyola averaged 2,572 for their home schedule (incl the DePaul, UIC and No Illinois game); remove the No Ill game since that's outside the city and their avg is 2,670.
> 
> PLUS, the Chicago RECRUITING area is VASTLY better than Nashville.



I may be totally off with this, but why do we want either of them if their average home attendance is less than 3K?  I don't understand this.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Not sure why opponent's home attendance matters to us at all here? We rarely get a large opponent crowd at Hulman Center.


----------



## prairieclub

I think you'll see Loyola's attendance increase over the next few years while they continue to build the program as long as they continue to improve. The new arena looks like an excellent venue to watch a game.

I'd also imagine there is a large amount of MVC alums living and working in the Chicago area. I think Bradley, Illinois St, Southern Illinois in particular would have strong alumni contingents show up to see their team in Chicago. It would also make for a nice mini vacation for Sycamore fans from Indy or Terre Haute if State happened to play there on a weekend.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

prairieclub said:


> I think you'll see Loyola's attendance increase over the next few years while they continue to build the program as long as they continue to improve. The new arena looks like an excellent venue to watch a game.
> 
> I'd also imagine there is a large amount of MVC alums living and working in the Chicago area. I think Bradley, Illinois St, Southern Illinois in particular would have strong alumni contingents show up to see their team in Chicago. It would also make for a nice mini vacation for Sycamore fans from Indy or Terre Haute if State happened to play there on a weekend.



We had a really sad alumni showing at both the Chicago alumni gathering and the Loyola Classic 2 years ago. I'm talking 15-20 alumni showed up and they were offering free food. I doubt ISU would draw in Chicago.


----------



## tjbison

4Q_iu said:


> I'd rather any of the MVFC Dakota schools join before any other Summit schools



NDSU and SDSU on espn2 at 8pm central for the championship in case anyone is interested!!


----------



## prairieclub

Jason Svoboda said:


> We had a really sad alumni showing at both the Chicago alumni gathering and the Loyola Classic 2 years ago. I'm talking 15-20 alumni showed up and they were offering free food. I doubt ISU would draw in Chicago.



That sucks. Chicago is such a fun town and basketball is fun for me to watch no matter who's playing. I'm just trying to come up with positives for the school I'd be in favor of adding. I'm a little torn though cause I also would favor a football school, but I just don't see any FCS football schools that I'd like to see in the Valley for hoops


----------



## treeman

the valley just isn't in position to add 1 single school that will boost the conference. every team that is available has pros and cons, the only way i see the valley "winning" in this situation would be to add 3 schools between oral roberts, valpo, murray, belmont, loyola, or detroit (no particular order). would love to add st. louis or dayton but that just isn't even close to happening. it's a shame that creighton is leaving but it might just open up the door for a certain team from terre haute to step in and become a conference power.


----------



## bent20

Everyone thought it would hurt us to add the Dakotas in football and now NDSU has won the national title two years in a row and this year we stood out as the one team to beat them. People obsess too much over who we could add. It really doesn't mean as much as it might seem.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Jason Svoboda said:


> Not sure why opponent's home attendance matters to us at all here? We rarely get a large opponent crowd at Hulman Center.



I'm not sure it matters either way.  I feel I could argue both ways on it.  Is home attendance an indicator of monetary support for the program?  Are they competitive in sports other than basketball?  Are they requesting the Valley or is the Valley chasing them?  Is a rivalry expected or will it be just another game?  How do they add to the image of the MVC?  It's not a good image when 2,000 show up for a televised home game.  That would however make others with attendance issues look better.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

*Possible Additions to the MVC*

Look, I like noodling this stuff, so if you don't really care, I would suggest you ignore my next several posts.  Nothing personal, I'm just going to post some statistics on the (seeming) favorites, from our perspectives, to be added to the Valley.

I will post some (relevant?) stats for Murray State, Belmont, Valpo, Loyola, and NDSU.  Feel free to discuss, or not, but I found this gave me a better idea of who has a better "_program_" and who has good teams.  Obviously, this won't be all inclusive, so if you have other info you'd like to share, please feel free.  I just thought this would be fun to do while I was sitting in my family room watching basketball!

So, (I hope) enjoy!!!


----------



## IndyTreeFan

*Murray State Racers*

Season Results:

2012-2013  21-10
2011-2012  31-2        NCAA 2nd Round
2010-2011  23-9        NIT 1st Round
2009-2010  31-5        NCAA 2nd Round
2008-2009  19-12
2007-2008  18-13
2006-2007  16-14
2005-2006  26-7        NCAA 1st Round
2004-2005  20-10
2003-2004  28-6        NCAA 1st Round

Enrollment:  10,800
Public University
Home Court:  CFSB Center   (8,602)
15 NCAA tournament appearances
17 Varsity teams


----------



## IndyTreeFan

*Belmont Bruins*

Season Results:

2012-2013  26-6    NCAA
2011-2012  27-8    NCAA 1st Round
2010-2011  30-5    NCAA 1st Round
2009-2010  19-12
2008-2009  20-13  CIT 2nd Round
2007-2008  25-9    NCAA 1st Round
2006-2007  23-10  NCAA 1st Round
2005-2006  20-11  NCAA 1st Round
2004-2005  14-16  
2003-2004  21-9    NIT 1st Round

Enrollment:  6647
Private University
Home Court:  Curb Event Center  (5,000)
6 NCAA tournament appearances
15 Varsity teams


----------



## IndyTreeFan

*Loyola Ramblers*

Season Results:

2012-2013    15-16
2011-2012    7-23
2010-2011    17-15
2009-2010    15-14
2008-2009    15-18
2007-2008    13-19
2006-2007    21-11
2005-2006    19-11
2004-2005    13-17

Enrollment:  15,068
Private University
Home Court:  Gentile Arena  (4,486)
1 NCAA National Championship (1963)
13 Varsity Teams


----------



## IndyTreeFan

*Valpo Crusaders*

Season Results:

2012-2013    26-7      NCAA
2011-2012    22-12    NIT 1st Round
2010-2011    23-12    CIT 1st Round
2009-2010    15-17
2008-2009    9-22
2007-2008    22-14    CBI 2nd Round
2006-2007    16-15
2005-2006    17-12
2004-2005    15-16
2003-2004    18-13    NCAA 1st Round

Enrollment:  4.061
Private University
Home Court:  Athletics-Recreation Center (5,432)
8 NCAA Tournament Appearances
18 Varsity Teams


----------



## IndyTreeFan

*North Dakota State Bison*

Season Results:

2012-2013    24-9
2011-2012    17-14
2010-2011    16-15
2009-2010    13-18
2008-2009    26-7    NCAA 1st Round
2007-2008    16-13
2006-2007    20-8
2005-2006    16-12
2004-2005    16-12
2003-2004    D-II

Enrollment:  14,443
Public University
Home Court:  Bison Sports Arena (new arena planned)
1 NCAA Appearance
14 Varsity Teams


----------



## ISUCC

how about profiles for Oral Roberts, UW-Milwaukee, & UI-C if you're still bored, they are possibilities too.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

ISUCC said:


> how about profiles for Oral Roberts, UW-Milwaukee, & UI-C if you're still bored, they are possibilities too.



Good idea.  I'll get to that tomorrow.  I have to sleep at some point!!!


----------



## tjbison

IndyTreeFan said:


> Season Results:
> 
> 2012-2013    24-9
> 2011-2012    17-14
> 2010-2011    16-15
> 2009-2010    13-18
> 2008-2009    26-7    NCAA 1st Round
> 2007-2008    16-13
> 2006-2007    20-8
> 2005-2006    16-12
> 2004-2005    16-12
> 2003-2004    D-II
> 
> Enrollment:  14,443
> Public University
> Home Court:  Bison Sports Arena (new arena planned)
> 1 NCAA Appearance
> 14 Varsity Teams



2009 was our first year it of transition and we made the tournament, next year we return everyone after just getting beat it he Summit championship to SDSU who lose everyone


----------



## ISUCC

tjbison said:


> 2009 was our first year it of transition and we made the tournament, next year we return everyone after just getting beat it he Summit championship to SDSU who lose everyone



TJ, sdsu will revert to IUPUI status w/o Wolters. He is that entire team, he is their once in a lifetime "Larry Bird". Next year's title game should be Denver (If they truly remain in your league) vs. your team. But as long as your league continues to play their tourney on sdsu's home court they will always have a shot. Thank God the MVC tourneys (men and women) are on neutral courts.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> Not sure why opponent's home attendance matters to us at all here? We rarely get a large opponent crowd at Hulman Center.



I'd consider home attendance a sign of how well the program is "succeeding,"....

agree?


----------



## 4Q_iu

IndyTreeFan said:


> Season Results:
> 
> 2012-2013    15-16
> 2011-2012    (honestly, I couldn't find this...)
> 2010-2011    17-15
> 2009-2010    15-14
> 2008-2009    15-18
> 2007-2008    13-19
> 2006-2007    21-11
> 2005-2006    19-11
> 2004-2005    13-17
> 
> Enrollment:  15,068
> Private University
> Home Court:  Gentile Arena  (4,486)
> 1 NCAA National Championship (1963)
> 13 Varsity Teams



2011-12 7-23 (1-17 Horizon)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyola_Ramblers_men's_basketball

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/loyola-il/


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> I'd consider home attendance a sign of how well the program is "succeeding,"....
> 
> agree?



No, not really. At one point it could be when attending sporting events was a priority, but I don't consider it a big factor any more to be quite honest. There are 349 division 1 basketballs teams. As much as we bark about attendence, not sure if anyone knows it, but we're in the Top 100 nationally. 

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/pdfs/2012/2012+ncaa+mens+basketball+attendance


----------



## IndyTreeFan

*Oral Roberts Golden Eagles*

Season Results:

2012-2013    18-13
2011-2012    27-7     NIT 1st Round
2010-2011    19-16    CIT 1st Round
2009-2010    20-13
2008-2009    16-15
2007-2008    24-9     NCAA 1st Round
2006-2007    23-11    NCAA 1st Round
2005-2006    21-12    NCAA 1st Round
2004-2005    25-8     NIT 1st Round
2003-2004    17-11

Enrollment:  3,259
Private University
Home Court:  Mabee Center  (10,500)
5 NCAA Appearances
16 Varsity Teams


----------



## IndyTreeFan

*Milwaukee Panthers*

Season Results:

2012-2013    8-24
2011-2012    20-13    CBI 1st Round
2010-2011    19-14    NIT 1st Round
2009-2010    20-14
2008-2009    17-14
2007-2008    14-16
2006-2007    9-22
2005-2006    22-9     NCAA 2nd Round
2004-2005    26-6     NCAA Sweet 16
2003-2004    20-11    NIT 2nd Round

Enrollment:  30,502
Public University
Home Court:  US Cellular Arena  (10,785)
3 NCAA Appearances
15 Varsity Teams


----------



## IndyTreeFan

*Universtiy of Illinois at Chicago Flames*

Season Results:

2012-2013    17-15    CIT
2011-2012    8-22
2010-2011    7-24
2009-2010    8-22
2008-2009    16-15
2007-2008    18-15
2006-2007    14-18
2005-2006    16-15
2004-2005    15-14
2003-2004    24-8     NCAA 1st Round

Enrollment:  28,091
Public University
Home Court:  UIC Pavilion  (6,958)
3 NCAA Appearances
14 Varsity Teams


----------



## BrokerZ

treeman said:


> the valley just isn't in position to add 1 single school that will boost the conference. every team that is available has pros and cons, the only way i see the valley "winning" in this situation would be to add 3 schools between oral roberts, valpo, murray, belmont, loyola, or detroit (no particular order). would love to add st. louis or dayton but that just isn't even close to happening. it's a shame that creighton is leaving but it might just open up the door for a certain team from terre haute to step in and become a conference power.



This ^

Even if Creighton doesn't leave we should be looking to add two teams right now.  If Creighton leaves, add three.  In this day and age of conference realignment, if you're not expanding you are dying.

On another note, I'm not sure why anyone cares about attendance figures for any of these schools.  The MVC makes the bulk of it's money on tournament appearances.  Our only goal should be to add high-calibur mid-major teams with a track record of success.


----------



## ISUCC

Wow, so now it appears CU is STAYING one more season! ha! 

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/coll...on_xavier_to_join_next_HWBR8nzwcf0a0rZSxkf8IM

so that begs the question, do we still add 1-2-3 teams, KNOWING they are gone in 2014????

the A-10 will lose FIVE teams July 1st, if the MVC dilly dally's around and does NOT add, then the A-10 may add some teams that the MVC is wanting to add. Come on Elgin, get things moving!!


----------



## BrokerZ

ISUCC said:


> Wow, so not it appears CU is STAYING one more season! ha!
> 
> http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/coll...on_xavier_to_join_next_HWBR8nzwcf0a0rZSxkf8IM
> 
> so that begs the question, do we still add 1-2-3 teams, KNOWING they are gone in 2014????
> 
> the A-10 will lose FIVE teams July 1st, if the MVC dilly dally's around and does NOT add, then the A-10 may add some teams that the MVC is wanting to add. Come on Elgin, get things moving!!



So...if I'm reading this correctly, CU is definitely gone but in 2014 instead of 2013.  I believe, as I've said in about 10+ other posts, that the MVC should be adding 3 schools right now.  So we play with 13 for one year...who cares?  We have to be in a position of power and be proactive.  As you mentioned, the A-10 will be looking to add schools also, and will most likely be looking to add them from the same pool we are.  

Get to work Elgin!


----------



## IndyTreeFan

I'd be inclined to tell Creighton to leave now.  We don't need to be their "ass-boy" for a season when they're already one foot out the door.  Don't let the door hit 'ya, BJ's.  :talktothehand:


----------



## BrokerZ

IndyTreeFan said:


> I'd be inclined to tell Creighton to leave now.  We don't need to be their "ass-boy" for a season when they're already one foot out the door.  Don't let the door hit 'ya, BJ's.  :talktothehand:



I hear where you're coming from, but I don't think it's as easy as just telling them to leave.  The conference can benefit from their membership for one more year; I have no problem with that.


----------



## ISUCC

BrokerZ said:


> So...if I'm reading this correctly, CU is definitely gone but in 2014 instead of 2013.  I believe, as I've said in about 10+ other posts, that the MVC should be adding 3 schools right now.  So we play with 13 for one year...who cares?  We have to be in a position of power and be proactive.  As you mentioned, the A-10 will be looking to add schools also, and will most likely be looking to add them from the same pool we are.
> 
> *Get to work Elgin!*



We TOTALLY need to be adding schools NOW, get to 12 for 13'-14' and then add one more in 14'

When we KNEW Tulsa was leaving we added Evansville and were at 11 for one season, then Tulsa left and we're at the same 10 we're at now.


----------



## ISUCC

BrokerZ said:


> I hear where you're coming from, but I don't think it's as easy as just telling them to leave.  The conference can benefit from their membership for one more year; I have no problem with that.



agreed, CU staying one more season BENEFITS the MVC. Like I said, we need to root for them to do well in the NCAA, more wins = more $$ for ISU. So if they stay thru next season and again make the NCAA's with McDermott, then that's even more $$ for ISU and the MVC.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

One thing that people have to remember about this, though, is that Doug Elgin isn't operating in a vacuum.  He cannot take action without the express consent of the Presidents of the member Universities.  I've been told multiple times that the Presidents have been very content to stand pat on our membership, so even if Elgin has a list of 3 that would join the conference tomorrow, he can't do a thing without approval.  That might be a harder thing to accomplish than any of us think...

Hopefully, and remember we're talking University presidents here, they have seen the need to move quickly and have granted Elgin the authority to make necessary changes to our membership.

One other thing - be thankful that we're already in the MVC.  In today's realignment craziness, we'd be a school left holding the bag.  We couldn't move if we wanted to.  I'm very glad we're already where we should be.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BrokerZ said:


> I hear where you're coming from, but I don't think it's as easy as just telling them to leave. The conference can benefit from their membership for one more year; I have no problem with that.



So if they stay and take tourney appearance from us, that's okay if we get a share of the tourney cash? No. 

You want to leave? Ari, take it away.


----------



## 4Q_iu

BrokerZ said:


> I hear where you're coming from, but I don't think it's as easy as just telling them to leave.  The conference can benefit from their membership for one more year; I have no problem with that.



Meh... I'm of the perspective, you want out?  Then GET THE  out!


----------



## BrokerZ

Jason Svoboda said:


> So if they stay and take tourney appearance from us, that's okay if we get a share of the tourney cash? No.
> 
> You want to leave? Ari, take it away.



How many times has Creighton taken away a tourney appearance from us?


----------



## Sycamore Proud

IndyTreeFan said:


> One thing that people have to remember about this, though, is that Doug Elgin isn't operating in a vacuum.  He cannot take action without the express consent of the Presidents of the member Universities. * I've been told multiple times that the Presidents have been very content to stand pat on our membership, so even if Elgin has a list of 3 that would join the conference tomorrow, he can't do a thing without approval.  That might be a harder thing to accomplish than any of us think...
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully, and remember we're talking University presidents here, they have seen the need to move quickly and have granted Elgin the authority to make necessary changes to our membership.
> *
> One other thing - be thankful that we're already in the MVC.  In today's realignment craziness, we'd be a school left holding the bag.  We couldn't move if we wanted to.  I'm very glad we're already where we should be.



Getting the attention of the presidents and conveying the importance of making additions to the Valley should be the #1 priority of Elgin and each director of athletics in the MVC.  The future of the MVC and Elgin's job are at stake it seems to me.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BrokerZ said:


> How many times has Creighton taken away a tourney appearance from us?



As many as they've helped us get into. That isn't the point I'm trying to make. The fact that they are a perennial power drastically reduces the opportunity of us making it. They've been to the postseason 15 years in a row.


----------



## BrokerZ

Jason Svoboda said:


> As many as they've helped us get into. That isn't the point I'm trying to make. The fact that they are a perennial power drastically reduces the opportunity of us making it. They've been to the postseason 15 years in a row.



I see where you're coming from, but I could argue the exact opposite viewpoint.  The fact that Creighton is a perennial power increases our opportunity of making the tournament.  Two conference wins against a "power" looks pretty good on a resume.  Taking down the power teams in the conference, I would imagine, looks good to recruits too.  

I can appreciate that you're looking for an even playing field, and I have no arguments there.  Nevertheless, I still feel ISU is the reason ISU doesn't make the tournament.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> As many as they've helped us get into. That isn't the point I'm trying to make. The fact that they are a perennial power drastically reduces the opportunity of us making it. They've been to the postseason 15 years in a row.



I disagree with that statement.  It's the teams that suck each year that are drastically reducing everyone else's chances at postseason play.  The good teams aren't doing it.  Losing to Creighton and WSU isn't keeping us out of the postseason.  Losing to SIU, Drake, MSU, and other bottom dwellers is what is keeping us from the postseason.  Besides, we only got swept once this year.  It was by a play-in team.  Creighton isn't keeping us out of the postseason.

*ISU's problems are ISU's doing.*  Doesn't have anything to do with anyone else's success.  A stronger MVC is better for everyone.

EDIT:  Yes, I realize that _we _were "the teams that suck each year" for 20 years.  I now know why people from Creighton and WSU feel they way they do about the rest of the conference...


----------



## IndyTreeFan

So, in light of the teams whose profiles I posted last night and today, I don't think they all fit into what the Valley should be looking for to grow effectively.  We need to grab schools with *good programs*, not a few good teams.  With the info I found, the teams that should be looked at for expansion are as follows:

*Murray State *- consistent winner over at least a decade - football is an issue, but not for me.
*Belmont* - consistent winner, has proven ability to beat big boys, wonderful tv market and who wouldn't like a trip to Nashville...
*Oral Roberts *- consistent winner, has one of the top coaches in the country, nice geographic partner to the western schools in the MVC
*Valpo* - not as sold on their consistency, but they have a track record of making the postseason  not my first pick, though
*NDSU* - no real track record, but they are new to D-I and have proven resources, fan base, and programs have been pretty successful since the jump

So there you go.  Any thoughts on this?  Am I off base?


----------



## ISUCC

IndyTreeFan said:


> So, in light of the teams whose profiles I posted last night and today, I don't think they all fit into what the Valley should be looking for to grow effectively.  We need to grab schools with *good programs*, not a few good teams.  With the info I found, the teams that should be looked at for expansion are as follows:
> 
> *Murray State *- consistent winner over at least a decade - football is an issue, but not for me.
> *Belmont* - consistent winner, has proven ability to beat big boys, wonderful tv market and who wouldn't like a trip to Nashville...
> *Oral Roberts *- consistent winner, has one of the top coaches in the country, nice geographic partner to the western schools in the MVC
> *Valpo* - not as sold on their consistency, but they have a track record of making the postseason  not my first pick, though
> *NDSU* - no real track record, but they are new to D-I and have proven resources, fan base, and programs have been pretty successful since the jump
> 
> So there you go.  Any thoughts on this?  Am I off base?



you can remove ANY dakota school from your list, it's NOT gonna happen. It eliminates the MVC from being a bus league and the presidents are not going to vote to admit far away teams (plural) that will significantly increase travel for all sports. And besides, they're not a private school. If they were closer than WSU/Creighton/Drake/UNI then yes, they would be perfect, but they're nearly in Canada. 

The ONLY way schools like that will ever be admitted is if Drake, UE, and Bradley all decide to leave the MVC. UE could easily leave, they have the Horizon and OVC that they could slide into. They would be stupid to do that though IMO. The options for Drake and Bradley are pretty much nothing. 

So once again, I'm sticking to my opinion that whichever school(s) are admitted, they will be private. If we add more than 2 schools, there will be a public school in there somewhere.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> No, not really. At one point it could be when attending sporting events was a priority, but I don't consider it a big factor any more to be quite honest. There are 349 division 1 basketballs teams. As much as we bark about attendence, not sure if anyone knows it, but we're in the Top 100 nationally.
> 
> http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/pdfs/2012/2012+ncaa+mens+basketball+attendance



Hmmm...  in another thread you used CU's larger gym and better attendance as reasons why their MBB is 'better' (more resources, fewer costs b/c of football...)   but now you're saying you don't consider attendance a big factor.

Maybe we're talking past each other...


----------



## ISUCC

ITF, I just want to add one more reason why the dakotas won't be joining the MVC. Their league tournament is held in Sioux Falls, all those games are home games for S. Dakta. St. (and if USD ever gets good they will be home games for them as well). Right now they play their league tournament in a high school gymnasium. It's smaller than my high school gym was in Indiana. But in 2015 the league tourney will be played in a new 12,000 seat arena in Sioux Falls. 

So IMO none of the schools in South Dakota will ever want to give that home court advantage up. They will fight tooth and nail to keep their league intact. 

Now, whether or not their league survives these next rounds of conference shuffling is another question? They will very likely lose Oakland to the Horizon league within a year or 2. That brings them to 8 teams (if Denver sticks to their word and joins this summer). And once Oakland leaves, what will IUPUI and IPFW do? Are they going to want to stay in a league where they have to send their teams nearly 1000 miles away for contests? I don't think they have many options for joining other conferences though, so they may very well be stuck in that league. Would the WAC go after IUPUI & IPFW? Who knows, they seem to not care where their schools are located? And they'd actually compete well in the WAC against lesser competition and their conference tourney is at a neutral location like the MVC.


----------



## 4Q_iu

IndyTreeFan said:


> So, in light of the teams whose profiles I posted last night and today, I don't think they all fit into what the Valley should be looking for to grow effectively.  We need to grab schools with *good programs*, not a few good teams.  With the info I found, the teams that should be looked at for expansion are as follows:
> 
> *Belmont* - consistent winner, has proven ability to beat big boys, wonderful tv market and who wouldn't like a trip to Nashville...
> 
> So there you go.  Any thoughts on this?  Am I off base?



Will you defend your claim of nashville as a "wonderful tv market"?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> Hmmm...  in another thread you used CU's larger gym and better attendance as reasons why their MBB is 'better' (more resources, fewer costs b/c of football...)   but now you're saying you don't consider attendance a big factor.
> 
> Maybe we're talking past each other...



I don't consider a school's attendance as a good reason to include them.

I just used the illustration to show one of Creighton's monetary advantages.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

The presidents of the Big East's seven Catholic schools -- DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's and Villanova -- met with their athletic directors in New York on Wednesday and will announce new membership for the new Big East within 7-10 days, according to a source who had first-hand knowledge of the meeting.

The presidents also told the ADs that a search firm has been hired to find a new commissioner.

Additional members have not yet been invited, so naming any set teams is premature, although the favorites remain Xavier and Butler out of the Atlantic 10 and Creighton out of the Missouri Valley. Dayton and Saint Louis also are candidates from the A-10, with Richmond probably a long shot.

The new Big East will begin play in 2013-14, and will hold its postseason tournament at Madison Square Garden.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-bas...ig-east-announce-additional-members-7-10-days


----------



## IndyTreeFan

*MVC expansion candidates*



4Q_iu said:


> Will you defend your claim of nashville as a "wonderful tv market"?



#29, would be the biggest market in the MVC, potentially opening up recruiting opportunities that we might not otherwise have.

I'm not sure what you're looking for in a TV market, but that's a pretty good one in my mind...


----------



## tjbison

I find it funny that we are so out in the middle of nowhere but yet Denver and Oral Roberts are considered good candidates, some say we are almost to Canada? There are tons of schools closer to Canada than us.  I don't care one way or the other but let's face it th MVC can't be to picky as there isn't exactly a lot of schools with big names and markets trying to get in.  It seems odd for them to totally ignore NDSU and SDSU which are 2 state universities with good support, but if so then be it th Big Sky will be our only option and the MVFC will be no more if th Summit folds IMO


----------



## ISUCC

tjbison said:


> I find it funny that we are so out in the middle of nowhere but yet Denver and Oral Roberts are considered good candidates, some say we are almost to Canada? There are tons of schools closer to Canada than us.  I don't care one way or the other but let's face it th MVC can't be to picky as there isn't exactly a lot of schools with big names and markets trying to get in.  It seems odd for them to totally ignore NDSU and SDSU which are 2 state universities with good support, but if so then be it th Big Sky will be our only option and the MVFC will be no more if th Summit folds IMO



TJ you need to look at a map, the primary schools the MVC will consider will keep the MVC as a bus league. Even ORU would keep the MVC as a bus league. Tulsa used to be in the MVC up until 1996. It was a bus trip to get there. Tulsa is closer to most MVC schools than even Wichita State.

your schools are good schools, noone has ever said they're crappy schools. Geography will ALWAYS be your crutch. Just a fact of life. And like I said earlier, the south dakota schools aren't going anywhere, no way, now how are they giving up home court advantage for your league tourney.


----------



## 4Q_iu

IndyTreeFan said:


> #29, would be the biggest market in the MVC, potentially opening up recruiting opportunities that we might not otherwise have.
> 
> I'm not sure what you're looking for in a TV market, but that's a pretty good one in my mind...



Chicago is the #3 TV market (Loyola-IL, Valparaiso) Detroit is the #11 (UDetroit-Mercy), Tulsa is #61 (Oral Rbts), Omaha is #76... surprisingly Springfld MO is #74

http://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets


In a LOT of ways, I too would like to see us add an MVFC team OR have Drake commit to MVFC football...   it'd be GREAT if we could land Dayton but I don't see that happening.  Still zero interest in Denver.

I still like Valpo as an add over Belmont but if it's Belmont...  so be it.

Back to Boda; ok see your point about monetary advantage but at the end of the day...  home attendance IS a sign of a successful program; the jays haven't / didn't ALWAYS avg their latest avg.  Hopefully, neither will we... as in; over time our hard-core ~4K fans become 9K hard-core fans.  Hopefully we have SRO crowds.

As to when the Jays do leave... let's push for the experience WE had in 1977; since we were a "transitional" team (ie joining the Valley)
next year if the Jays are still in the Valley, they are INELIGIBLE for the MVC Tourney.  The Colonial did it this year with Old Dominion and Ga State leaving for new conferences.  

Thoughts?

And a story on Loyola for the uninformed: http://www.usatoday.com/story/sport...ent-championship-50-year-anniversary/1973795/


----------



## bent20

ISUCC said:


> TJ you need to look at a map, the primary schools the MVC will consider will keep the MVC as a bus league. Even ORU would keep the MVC as a bus league. Tulsa used to be in the MVC up until 1996. It was a bus trip to get there. Tulsa is closer to most MVC schools than even Wichita State.
> 
> your schools are good schools, noone has ever said they're crappy schools. Geography will ALWAYS be your crutch. Just a fact of life. And like I said earlier, the south dakota schools aren't going anywhere, no way, now how are they giving up home court advantage for your league tourney.



We fly to Omaha and Wichita. It's another three or four hours to Fargo by ground, not really a deal breaker by any means.


----------



## ISUCC

bent20 said:


> We fly to Omaha and Wichita. It's another three or four hours to Fargo by ground, not really a deal breaker by any means.



Bent, I am referring to non basketball sports when I discuss the MVC as a bus league. Nearly all basketball teams fly to their games.


----------



## ISUCC

looks like CU will be gone this summer per some interesting tweets from the A-10 meetings.


----------



## ISUCC

and this


----------



## BrokerZ

ISUCC said:


> and this

So....does thsi mean Dayton and SLU are on the outside looking in?  I wonder if they'd have any interesting joining the MVC or if they'd still consider the A-10 a superior conference?


----------



## landrus13

SLU and Dayton would be HUGE additions to the MVC.


----------



## 4Q_iu

BrokerZ said:


> So....does thsi mean Dayton and SLU are on the outside looking in?  I wonder if they'd have any interesting joining the MVC or if they'd still consider the A-10 a superior conference?



No, no, no.  The NEW Big East will be the Catholic 7 (and Butler and Xavier AND Creighton for 2013-14 MBB season/school year.)

SLU and Dayton will join the NEW Big East for the 2014-15 school year/MBB Season.

]


----------



## BrokerZ

4Q_iu said:


> SLU and Dayton will join the NEW Big East for the 2014-15 school year/MBB Season.



Is this definitively going to happen?  It makes some sense to add Dayton and SLU to the Big East, but it makes equally as much sense to keep them out of the new conference (without them you have a 10-team league, round-robin scheduling, less hands in the cookie jar, etc.).  I've read so many articles and rumors on this that I'm starting to get blurry-eyed.  As far as I know, the only "definites" that have been reported are Butler and Xavier joining.  It appears Creighton is bound for the new league, but whether that's for 2013/2014 or 2014/2015 is the question.  I don't recall seeing anything concrete regarding Dayton and SLU.  

Maybe Dayton and SLU become more of a long term play for the MVC, assuming they want to hold out to see what happens with the Big East next year.  And, then again, maybe I'm completely off base.


----------



## Bloomington_Sycamore

Here's an idea for the Valley.

Have at least 12 teams and 2 divisions a North and South. It could look like this.

North: UNI, Drake, Bradley, Illi St, Us (Valpo, Dayton, NDST, SDST, Oakland could be added here.)

South Evansville, SIU, MissouriSt, Wichita (Belmont, SLU, Murray St, Oral Roberts could go here.)


----------



## ISUCC

looks like the official announcement will be next week. 

http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcspo...cially-add-butler-xavier-creighton-next-week/


----------



## BrokerZ

ISUCC said:


> looks like the official announcement will be next week.
> 
> http://collegebasketballtalk.nbcspo...cially-add-butler-xavier-creighton-next-week/



Mentions nothing of Dayton and SLU.  Interesting.


----------



## ISUCC

finally an official word on Butler


BREAKING: Details on Butler joining the revamped Big East. http://t.co/Iu8kqGSu3q— David Woods (@DavidWoods007) March 16, 2013


----------



## Bluethunder

Dont know if this was already posted, but Chicago Tribune article had this to say,.....

http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/438/article/p2p-74834365/

Personally, I just don't care anymore.  I am sick of hearing about all of this.  I realize that Catholics aren't exactly known for being quick to make changes but come on.  Can somebody over there just make a damn decision so the rest of us can get on with our lives?  This thing has been dragged out about as far as it can go.


----------



## Bally #50

Ahhh, the plot thickens~


----------



## ISUCC

FINALLY, it's official, Creighton gone

http://www.omaha.com/article/20130315/BLUEJAYS/703159855/1685


----------



## treeman

here is some food for thought. with creighton gone that GREATLY improves our chances to at least win in st. louis year in and year out (looking at the glass half full). but Butler is also going to the big east. with butler losing their mid-major status does this help Indiana State on the recruiting trail or hurt us. will butler be going after high-major recruits and leave mid-major type players for us, evansville, valpo, and ball state to duke it out in the hoosier state? or will butler just suck up every recruit ISU would love to land? thoughts.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

treeman said:


> here is some food for thought. with creighton gone that GREATLY improves our chances to at least win in st. louis year in and year out (looking at the glass half full). but Butler is also going to the big east. with butler losing their mid-major status does this help Indiana State on the recruiting trail or hurt us. will butler be going after high-major recruits and leave mid-major type players for us, evansville, valpo, and ball state to duke it out in the hoosier state? or will butler just suck up every recruit ISU would love to land? thoughts.



I'm sure Title_BU may peek in on this, but its the former. Butler had already moved on to recruiting nationally. Their 2013 class didn't include a single Hoosier in it. The only Hoosier recruits they appear to be going after in the 2014 class are both national level guys. The last recruiting class that had more than one Hoosier in it was their 2010 class.


----------



## ISUCC

from the Drake board, can't put too much stock into this info, but Loyola's coach used to be at ILS



> Take this for what it's worth.
> 
> Met a kid at the big ten tourney who was wearing a loyola chicago warmup jacket and Iowa ball cap. he sat a row down and we got to talking college hoops.
> 
> Said he's on the team there, and was told that Loyola Chicago is working very VERY hard on trying to get into the Valley and it looks pretty promising.
> 
> Since I took this with a GINOURMOUS grain of salt, I checked their roster and he looked like a lot like kid on their roster who is from a city in Illinois which is less than 20 miles from Davenport.



Loyola does off sports that would benefit the MVC also


----------



## IndyTreeFan

ISUCC said:


> from the Drake board, can't put too much stock into this info, but Loyola's coach used to be at ILS
> 
> 
> 
> Loyola does off sports that would benefit the MVC also



Other than being (ignored) in a large TV market, someone explain to me what Loyola offers the MVC.  They stink year in and year out.  I keep hearing about this "new" commitment to sports, but if history is any guide, they won't do much of anything.  Not a fan of this one.


----------



## Bally #50

IndyTreeFan said:


> Other than being (ignored) in a large TV market, someone explain to me what Loyola offers the MVC.  They stink year in and year out.  I keep hearing about this "new" commitment to sports, but if history is any guide, they won't do much of anything.  Not a fan of this one.


They stank bad enough to beat us by 12 points a few season back. Just saying.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

They are an easy bus trip for many MVC schools.


----------



## Bluethunder

Question,.........

Who has the largest fan base and (in your opinions) would bring the most fans to Arch Madness if they were accepted into the conference?

Valpo
Belmont
Loyola
Oral Roberts
Someone else with a realistic chance of joining

I would throw out Valpo, but I really dont know if that would be right,....or I can't say how many they would bring.

We know it won't match Creighton, and that should not necessarily be the goal, but how many could each base bring?


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Bluethunder said:


> Question,.........
> 
> Who has the largest fan base and (in your opinions) would bring the most fans to Arch Madness if they were accepted into the conference?
> 
> Valpo
> Belmont
> Loyola
> Oral Roberts
> Someone else with a realistic chance of joining
> 
> I would throw out Valpo, but I really dont know if that would be right,....or I can't say how many they would bring.
> 
> We know it won't match Creighton, and that should not necessarily be the goal, but how many could each base bring?



Loyola can't draw crowds at home--they bring little to Arch Madness.  I could go with Valpo.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Bally #46 said:


> They stank bad enough to beat us by 12 points a few season back. Just saying.



Yes, but we are already in the MVC.  Most seasons, anyone could beat us bad, thankfully, that's not the criteria...


----------



## TreeTop

Western Kentucky all sports but football?


----------



## agrinut

ORU gets my vote. I would also consider a contingency off to Nebraska-Omaha to pick up some of the bandwagon Creighton fans that will be left when the finish 8th for the next decade.


----------



## Gotta Hav

I'm going with Valpo too, but that's just because of familiarity.

The knock against Valpo bringing a crowd is, they NEVER brought a crowd to FW when the Association of Mid-Continent Universities, now known as The Summit League played their Conference Tournament in Fort Wayne for three years...2000, 2001 and 2002....and that's with them winning the Championship here two of those years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Summit_League_Men's_Basketball_Tournament

One of the reasons their Conference Tournament moved out of FW was because of overall lack of attendance

Of course that was then, and this is now.  IMO, it's time for Valpo to get their big boy pants on move up a League, and join the MVC.  Of course there is the Football argument, but hey, it's been kinda working okay the way it is, too.

Also, Valpo joining the MVC makes sense for some natural travel synergies and ups the in-state rivalry ante with us and Evansville.


----------



## nwi stater

I'm all for Valpo!!!!

I live 5 min. away from the campus!!!! 
:thumbsup:


----------



## Bally #50

IndyTreeFan said:


> Yes, but we are already in the MVC.  Most seasons, anyone could beat us bad, thankfully, that's not the criteria...


I know. I was just having some fun with it all.


----------



## nwi stater

I think we should push to get isum in the mvc.  New coach, new conference:thumbsup:


----------



## ISUCC

the Wichita writer weighs in today

http://blogs.kansas.com/shockwaves/2013/03/16/life-without-creighton/


----------



## Sycamore Proud

nwi stater said:


> I think we should push to get isum in the mvc.  New coach, new conference:thumbsup:



If only they were smart enough to realize it.


----------



## BallyPie

How about a team that outdrew us in attendance last year (#88 nationally).....and is a perennial good team in their league.....and logistically, isn't that bad of a fit for the Valley.........Murray State....


----------



## agrinut

BallyPie said:


> How about a team that outdrew us in attendance last year (#88 nationally).....and is a perennial good team in their league.....and logistically, isn't that bad of a fit for the Valley.........Murray State....



I don't think there is any chance of a public school that plays football. Just my 2 cents but I don't see it happening.


----------



## ISUCC

agrinut said:


> I don't think there is any chance of a public school that plays football. Just my 2 cents but I don't see it happening.



if the MVC adds 3, then Murray could be in the mix, if 1, no chance.


----------



## OX 92

Per the Wichita paper if we could get Dayton or SLU for BB, I'm all for it.  Otherwise SEMO,Murray or Eastern Ill would be the fit.  Bringing in a BB only unless they have a national name does nothing for me personally.  Also if SDSU has the desire - I would listen to em. 

If a big BB name doesn't develope, I have no problem giving E'ville and Drake a Dear John letter. Same with YSU with Football and get the MVC and MVFC consolidated however Wichita gets a pass. Then if any Mac teams will listen...... 

Just a bunch of freakin IF's


Think about whats left of the Big East and A10 of course if............. to infinity


----------



## BallyPie

getting SLU in the Valley would be ideal.....another possible would be Wisconsin-Milw.............Eastern or Western Illinois do not bring anything to the table.....


----------



## OX 92

I totally agree with Western not bringing much, however I would think Eastern would add ticket sales when playing ISU


----------



## 4Q_iu

Quabachi said:


> Western Kentucky all sports but football?



Not even a REMOTE possibility...  The Toppers' consider themselves ABOVE FCS conferences; as they've sold their souls to the FBS Devil.

In addition, most WKU grads I know are as arrogant as ISU-Muncee grads.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BallyPie said:


> getting SLU in the Valley would be ideal.....another possible would be Wisconsin-Milw.............Eastern or Western Illinois do not bring anything to the table.....



I beg to differ. First, both schools offer football which in my grand unification plans is huge. Taking Western in would mean one more MVFC team into the MVC moving us closer to the (my) goal. We've only played them 9 times in hoops and hold a 7-2 series lead. 

As for EIU, we're played more games against them (122, believe they're in our Top 5 All-Time opponents) than we have against most Valley teams and it goes all the way back to 1909. The school is very close so having fans be able to travel to and fro is a big bonus and they also field a damn good football program most of the time. I'd love to see them join the MVC/MVFC and sent a team from the MVFC packing -- likely Youngstown State since they don't feel they belong anyhow. Let them go rip up the Ohio Valley every year. 

I know I'm in the minority on both of them, but I would take either. I'm not interested in acting like Butler and thinking we're too good for certain programs.  I'd prefer EIU.


----------



## 4Q_iu

OX 92 said:


> Per the Wichita paper if we could get Dayton or SLU for BB, I'm all for it.  Otherwise SEMO,Murray or Eastern Ill would be the fit.  Bringing in a BB only unless they have a national name does nothing for me personally.  Also if SDSU has the desire - I would listen to em.
> 
> If a big BB name doesn't develope, I have no problem giving E'ville and Drake a Dear John letter. Same with YSU with Football and get the MVC and MVFC consolidated however Wichita gets a pass. Then if any Mac teams will listen......
> 
> Just a bunch of freakin IF's
> 
> 
> Think about whats left of the Big East and A10 of course if............. to infinity



The Atl-10 has 16 members today; 2 have said they're leaving Butler and Xavier for the new Big East; Geo-town is pulling for Richmond to join as well.
Charlotte is also leaving for C-USA; Temple is leaving for the old Big East (America 12??)

The Atl-10 will soon have 11 or fewer members; while i'd LOVE to see SLU replace the Jays; I don't see that occuring.  They would save on travel costs but they've been in the Atl-10 since 2005...  why leave now?


----------



## ISUCC

One thing to remember during all this is that the MVC is a basketball conference first, the MVC has 0, nada, zilcho to do with football, therefore the only school or schools that will be considered 1st are schools (or a school) that emphasizes, and puts a majority of their resources, towards basketball. That's just the way it's going to be, we may as well all expect that when an announcement is made regarding expansion of the MVC.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> One thing to remember during all this is that the MVC is a basketball conference first, the MVC has 0, nada, zilcho to do with football, therefore the only school or schools that will be considered 1st are schools (or a school) that emphasizes, and puts a majority of their resources, towards basketball. That's just the way it's going to be, we may as well all expect that when an announcement is made regarding expansion of the MVC.



That's fine but I don't have to like it and doesn't make it right. If we could ever jump to a unified conference, I'd be all for it.


----------



## ISUCC

Jason Svoboda said:


> That's fine but I don't have to like it and doesn't make it right. If we could ever jump to a unified conference, I'd be all for it.



I totally see your point, and there are others who would love to have it be a unified BB/Football conference, but as long as Drake, Bradley, and UE are in the MVC it will never be that way.


----------



## xfactor9600

4Q_iu said:


> The Atl-10 has 16 members today; 2 have said they're leaving Butler and Xavier for the new Big East; Geo-town is pulling for Richmond to join as well.
> Charlotte is also leaving for C-USA; Temple is leaving for the old Big East (America 12??)
> 
> The Atl-10 will soon have 11 or fewer members; while i'd LOVE to see SLU replace the Jays; I don't see that occuring.  They would save on travel costs but they've been in the Atl-10 since 2005...  why leave now?



Chances of SLU going to the MVC took a big hit when Majerus passed away. He desperately wanted out of the A-10 because he hated the travel (which he didn't think was good for the student -- and probably wasn't so great for his health).


----------



## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> I totally see your point, and there are others who would love to have it be a unified BB/Football conference, but as long as Drake, Bradley, and UE are in the MVC it will never be that way.



Well, I still think UE bolts within the next couple of years. They can be the crown jewel of the Horizon. Also, Drake has football so I don't lump them in because even though it is "non scholarship" they offer academic scholarships to pretty much the entire team which essentially makes it the same. This is why I'd be totally cool with going after Valpo, especially since we've got a pretty long series history with them -- over 75 games, which like EIU, is more than some of our current Valley opponents like UNI, MSU, etc.


----------



## bluestreak

xfactor9600 said:


> Chances of SLU going to the MVC took a big hit when Majerus passed away. He desperately wanted out of the A-10 because he hated the travel (which he didn't think was good for the student -- and probably wasn't so great for his health).



You are spot on. Majerus had great respect for the Valley. But Father Biondi has delusions of grandeur for the STL bb program. The MVC didn't carry enough "bling" for him.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Please, please, please - no EIU or WIU.  The MVC is a basketball league (sorry to all the other sports, but that's the fact) and, in that vein, the MVC needs to add schools that increase (or have the potential to increase) the Valley's basketball profile.  WIU and EIU SUCK at basketball.  They add nothing, nada, zilch to the conference.  In fact, they would just add another 200+ RPI team each year, which would make it that much harder for anyone in the MVC to get an at-large to the NCAA tournament.  Watch what happens when WSU or us or UNI played SIU this year - even with a win our RPI took a rather large hit.  Get beat by them, like we did, and your RPI goes south for a vacation.  We don't need more of those types of programs in the MVC, particularly when we are just starting to be a consistent top 5 program.  A stronger Valley is good for all of us.  A weaker Valley is bad.  Period.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

We probably should just move to the A10 then.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

*MVC expansion candidates*

Got sick of seeing Creighton's name every time we were discussing MVC expansion and since they are no longer relevant to the MVC, I decided to create a new thread to discuss MVC expansion candidates.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> We probably should just move to the A10 then.



I guess that means I win the argument?  :razz:


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Can you move the posts I created for six(I think) possible candidates into this thread?  Might be helpful?


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> We probably should just move to the A10 then.



Nice idea; we can't afford the travel!


----------



## ISUCC

create a poll with all (realistic only) teams that the MVC could add. And we'll see who ISU fans choose.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Still don't care what they do... Lol


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> Still don't care what they do... Lol



I hear they're bringing in [INSERT TRACK/XC POWERHOUSE HERE]. Looks like ISU won't be winning all of those track/xc titles now. Do you still not care? LOL


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Jason Svoboda said:


> I hear they're bringing in [INSERT TRACK/XC POWERHOUSE HERE]. Looks like ISU won't be winning all of those track/xc titles now. Do you still not care? LOL



Hahaha! They are going to make the MVC a track and field conference no? That will be the day... 

You make it sound like I don't care about hoops or football - coudn't be any further from the truth. Like I've said before these talks seem so fluid and unpredictable that I find it for annoying than anything else. To me it's silly to throw names around and argue for or against them when you don't even know if they will get any consideration in the first place - in other words, a lot of different factors and things in play.

Discuss away though - just wanted to restate my position. Lol Oh and track and xc is going to win titles no matter who they bring in the conference. You got coaches and athletes that just win, that's all they know how to do. It's the culture of the program(s).


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Anyhow, back to this discussion. If you remember back to this Summer, Belmont, Evansville and Oakland were all rumored to join the Horizon League, which would have taken them to 12 members. Evansville's AD denied it pretty much every month and I haven't heard anything on it since December. Wondering if Elgin is giving them the stink eye to make a decision so he knows the scope of his recruitment. Does anyone think Evansville goes?

I'm still sticking with my desire to have whomever joins also play football -- be it MVFC, Pioneer League or whatever FCS conference they're from. Since ITF won't budge on them also being good/great basketball schools, and assuming Evansville also bolts, I think I'd want Dayton and Valpo if I had to fill two spots.

Here was the Evansville convo:

http://www.sycamorepride.com/showthread.php?12846-Evansville-looking-at-the-Horizon-League


----------



## Bluethunder

I can't imagine MSU and WSU accepting a team from Indiana or Ohio.  I would love it, but they would vote it down.

Unless of course there were no other options.


----------



## Patriot_Sycamore

Oakland?


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> Anyhow, back to this discussion. If you remember back to this Summer, Belmont, Evansville and Oakland were all rumored to join the Horizon League, which would have taken them to 12 members. Evansville's AD denied it pretty much every month and I haven't heard anything on it since December. Wondering if Elgin is giving them the stink eye to make a decision so he knows the scope of his recruitment. Does anyone think Evansville goes?
> 
> I'm still sticking with my desire to have whomever joins also play football -- be it MVFC, Pioneer League or whatever FCS conference they're from. Since ITF won't budge on them also being good/great basketball schools, and assuming Evansville also bolts, I think I'd want Dayton and Valpo if I had to fill two spots.
> 
> Here was the Evansville convo:
> 
> http://www.sycamorepride.com/showthread.php?12846-Evansville-looking-at-the-Horizon-League



Oh sure, blame it all on me.  :tomatoes:  :ballspin:

Just cause I think we see enough crappy basketball in the non-con, so I don't want to add crappy basketball to the conference!  Sheesh, a guy can't catch a break...  :razz:


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Patriot_Sycamore said:


> Oakland?


The Golden Grizzlies. Finished 16-17 in the Summit this year but had won 20+ games every year since 2008 prior.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/2473/oakland-golden-grizzlies


----------



## ISUCC

Patriot_Sycamore said:


> Oakland?



more than likely not, many better options


----------



## Bloomington_Sycamore

I would really like Belmont. Private school, brings something along with basketball to the Valley with regards to men's soccer. Stable basketball coaching and a winning program. A little far from UNI, but no school is perfect. Also opens the valley to the Nashville market, whatever slice of it that Belmont has, as well.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bloomington_Sycamore said:


> I would really like Belmont. Private school, brings something along with basketball to the Valley with regards to men's soccer. Stable basketball coaching and a winning program. A little far from UNI, but no school is perfect. Also opens the valley to the Nashville market, whatever slice of it that Belmont has, as well.



http://ovcball.net/2013/03/does-belmont-to-the-missouri-valley-make-sense/


----------



## Sycamore Proud

I believe Kentucky is looking for a new conference home, but I think the Valley can do better.


----------



## ISUCC

announcement tomorrow from the 3 schools folks. How quickly does the MVC react?????

from MVCfans.com

CU Press Conference


> Scheduled for tomorrow at 10:00AM in the DJ Sokol Arena. Xavier Presser at 9:30. Fox Sports and BigEast presser later in the day with Butler in attendance. Coincidence maybe?


----------



## Bally #50

Men (and women), fasten your seat belts. All fricking hell is going to happen and it might take a year for the dust to settle. Short-term, we need to figure out *quickly* what to do with the MVC. Beyond that, mid-majors as we know them today, may look totally different in 12 months.


----------



## Bluethunder

I feel very confident that whoever is tabbed to replace Creighton, we will all be disappointed.  Hope I am wrong, but doubt it.


----------



## ISUCC

Denver's AD comments on talks about Denver joining the MVC, VERY vague comments, sounds like adding sports was the issue

http://audioboo.fm/boos/1278535


----------



## Bally #50

ISUCC said:


> Denver's AD comments on talks about Denver joining the MVC, VERY vague comments, sounds like adding sports was the issue
> 
> http://audioboo.fm/boos/1278535


Could that interviewer be any SLOWER with getting to the point of his question? I was almost embarrassed for him listening to it.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Just went ahead and merged the threads since people continued to talk MVC expansion in here.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bally #46 said:


> Men (and women), fasten your seat belts. All fricking hell is going to happen and it might take a year for the dust to settle. Short-term, we need to figure out *quickly* what to do with the MVC. Beyond that, mid-majors as we know them today, may look totally different in 12 months.


It better not take a year. If so, Elgin needs to step aside and let new blood take over. He has known this was coming for awhile now.


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> It better not take a year. If so, Elgin needs to step aside and let new blood take over. He has known this was coming for awhile now.


That's why I said the MVC better move quickly. All hell is going to break lose, especially in D-1A vs D-1AA football. It will NOT be a dull year, that much we all know.


----------



## sycamore51

This may sound stupid, but I don't want to add a directional school or just a name.  I would rather have UND, NDSU, SDSU, or USD simply because it is a states "flagship" school.  You pull in NDSU and it may be more milage, but at least you bring most of an entire state with you.  Same thing with South Dakota State.  I just think it sounds better than north east southern utah a&m or some crap like that.  Also most private schools will bring very small fan bases, which will not grow a league.


----------



## agrinut

Bluethunder said:


> I can't imagine MSU and WSU accepting a team from Indiana or Ohio.  I would love it, but they would vote it down.
> 
> Unless of course there were no other options.



MSU has said the prefer a west school but would take an easy school if it improved the profile of the league. The AD also said they do not want a football playing school.


----------



## OX 92

sycamore51 said:


> This may sound stupid, but I don't want to add a directional school or just a name.  I would rather have UND, NDSU, SDSU, or USD simply because it is a states "flagship" school.  You pull in NDSU and it may be more milage, but at least you bring most of an entire state with you.  Same thing with South Dakota State.  I just think it sounds better than north east southern utah a&m or some crap like that.  Also most private schools will bring very small fan bases, which will not grow a league.




I honor your thought.  The biggest problem with travel is sending all the other sports to these locations.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

agrinut said:


> MSU has said the prefer a west school but would take an easy school if it improved the profile of the league. The AD also said they do not want a football playing school.


No offense to you, but if I'm Elgin, I tell you guys to STFU. 

First, you guys are still the relative "noob" to the conference. He probably would cater to WSU and SIU the most. Second, you guys have made it very clear you'll jump and would like to at any given chance (just last Summer) so I honestly wouldn't work very hard to please you or your wants.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

If they MVC took a team from the OVC it would be from the OVC West Division not the East - Belmont might fit the picture but is located in Tenn. I don't see them as a viable option.

So you'd be looking at Murray State, Southeast Missorui, EIU, SIUE, UT Martin and Austin Peay.

Of these, Murray St probably had the best hoops team this year.


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> No offense to you, but if I'm Elgin, I tell you guys to STFU.
> 
> First, you guys are still the relative "noob" to the conference. He probably would cater to WSU and SIU the most. Second, you guys have made it very clear you'll jump and would like to at any given chance (just last Summer) so I honestly wouldn't work very hard to please you or your wants.



In my opinion that is why he will cater to us. He has to please the big markets, MSU even in a down year gets coverage.  This morning Elgin sent a list of 16 schools to all university presidents. He made it clear football was not a consideration when making the list.


----------



## 4Q_iu

SycamoreStateofMind said:


> If they MVC took a team from the OVC it would be from the OVC West Division not the East - Belmont might fit the picture but is located in Tenn. I don't see them as a viable option.
> 
> So you'd be looking at Murray State, Southeast Missorui, EIU, SIUE, UT Martin and Austin Peay.
> 
> Of these, Murray St probably had the best hoops team this year.



Well if TENN schools are out...  don't include uT martin and/or Austin Peay...

of the 6 you list, I'd say ONLY Eastern Ill.   of any OVC schools, I'm only interested in EIU or Belmont.

I still like Loyola for the access to the Chicago market.   Would LOVE to see the #s of MVC alumni in Chicago.


----------



## BrokerZ

I feel like I'm just recycling the same post, but we need to add 3 teams right now to get to 12 teams.  Mid-major conferences are under attack right now and we need to be the aggressor and not just responsive.  Picking who I think those three teams should be is kind of a pointless task, but why not add Belmont, Murray State, AND Denver.  You can create and East/West divisions within the conference to take care of some travel concerns.  Belmont and Murray State would be in the East with Denver taking what would have been Creighton's spot in the West. 

Elgin has already screwed the pooch on this one.  He's a year behind.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

agrinut said:


> In my opinion that is why he will cater to us. He has to please the big markets, MSU even in a down year gets coverage. This morning Elgin sent a list of 16 schools to all university presidents. He made it clear football was not a consideration when making the list.



So you guys are no longer considering moving? If you guys have confirmed you're here for the long haul, then sure, I could see it. Otherwise, pound sand. I'd treat Evansville the same way -- any team that has publicly expressed interest in moving really. If we had, same treatment.


----------



## ISUCC

if we don't hear anything within the next week from the MVC presidents (and Elgin) regarding expansion I think people are going to be pretty unhappy. It's official now, so get the ball rolling MVC


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BrokerZ said:


> I feel like I'm just recycling the same post, but we need to add 3 teams right now to get to 12 teams. Mid-major conferences are under attack right now and we need to be the aggressor and not just responsive. Picking who I think those three teams should be is kind of a pointless task, but why not add Belmont, Murray State, AND Denver. You can create and East/West divisions within the conference to take care of some travel concerns. Belmont and Murray State would be in the East with Denver taking what would have been Creighton's spot in the West.
> 
> Elgin has already screwed the pooch on this one. He's a year behind.



Yeah, I agree. Conference realignment started well over 2 years ago and we've had multiple Valley teams flirt with leaving and now Creighton has. Honestly, he needs to hurry up and retire. It's never good to be reactive over being proactive.


----------



## 4Q_iu

I think A LOT of the conference re-alignment, is truly a lot of noise.   I'm not a FAN of it but it's occuring.

  At the end of the day; if you aren't currently a  STRONG football school in the Pac-12, SEC, Big Ten (14*), Big 12 (10*), ACC or 'old Big East'
then you're essentially running in place.

 There has long been and mostly likely always WILL BE a breakdown with the 340+ NCAA Div I schools.  Some schools overlap some of the categories below; you have schools trying to move between those categories.

You have the:

* A.  Hegemonic Football Powers in one of the 6 current conferences mentioned above
* B.  Schools trying to become one of the Hegemony
* C.  Schools in the rest of those conferences
* D.  Schools with great MBB programs in one of the 6 current conferences mentioned above
* E.  Schools trying to BUILD a Great MBB Program outside of those conferences
* F.  Schools in the Mid-Major Conferences
* G. The rest of NCAA Div I members

Right now, I put us in Cat E.


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> So you guys are no longer considering moving? If you guys have confirmed you're here for the long haul, then sure, I could see it. Otherwise, pound sand. I'd treat Evansville the same way -- any team that has publicly expressed interest in moving really. If we had, same treatment.



I think the best way to describe it is we are Shopping our Football program but plan on leaving everything else in the league. Elgin makes no decision on adding teams. Furthermore aside from ISUb, DU, BU and SIU who hasn't expressed a desire to move? ISUr had interest but I'm guessing the scaling back of their stadium stops that talk. UNI would love to but their new president is known for scaling back athletics not bolstering them. WSU is on an island so I'm not sure they have options but I bet the would listen if anyone wanted to talk. If the valley wants to stabilize the league I think a private school is the only way to go. Personally I would love ORU as it is a 2 hour drive for MSU and WSU we already travel more than everyone else.


----------



## BrokerZ

Schools seemingly move conferences for three reasons: 1) money, 2) to be part of a more competitive landscape (or the opposite, I suppose) and/or 3) perceived lack of current conference stability.  Creighton is leaving the MVC for money and nothing else.  All of the others schools, most likely, won't have the same opportunity; however, they could very easily feel now is the time to leave because they cannot trust the stability of the MVC.  

It's #3 that scares me the most.  What has the MVC done to assure the nine remaining schools they are in a viable and thriving conference going forward without Creighton?  I'm not expecting anyone to answer that question because we don't know, but I hope something has been done.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

I would venture a wild guess that the problem with the MVC moving so slowly doesn't really rest on Doug Elgin's shoulders.  I would bet it rests on the shoulders of the University presidents who just don't want to mess with a conference that they liked and required little effort on their part.  Outside of the presidents of WSU, ILSU, INSU, and MSU, I don't get the feeling that the rest of them are all that interested in athletics as a part of the university's mission.  Just my feeling, but if I am close to right, then that's where the bottleneck is, not Doug Elgin. 

I actually like Elgin.  He's done a lot of things to get our conference more exposure.  Bracketbuster (his baby) in its original design was a good thing.  The MVC-MWC challenge was a good thing.  The RPI requirement was so good, the university AD's and presidents canned it because the coaches felt threatened by it.  For a guy running a league without football to get his foot in the door, I think the guy has done pretty well.  Plus, under his leadership, our conference tournament is undoubtedly one of the best in the nation.

Just my thoughts.  But I sure hope they move sooner rather than later on adding schools.  EIU has a lot of suitors out there...:smack:  (just kidding...)


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Saw this on twitter on Monday, but didn't read it until today.  Interesting take on realignment in general, Butler in particular.  He's more right than wrong, but I guess it is what it is...

_ *Butler becoming a bandit school *

Two consecutive seasons of making to the Final Four, losing to Duke in Indianapolis and nearly winning the game with a Hoosiers type half court shot at the buzzer, having one of the best young coaches in college basketball has cast Butler as this classic “little school that could” character in the yearly  passion play known as the NCAA basketball tournament.

But beyond the mystique of Hinkle Field House, behind the nice Midwestern school image, another Butler exists, which could do well in the board rooms of Madison Ave or Wall Street, motivated by a bottom line, “we don’t care who we offend”‘ mentality._


Read more at http://ajerseyguy.com/


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> I would venture a wild guess that the problem with the MVC moving so slowly doesn't really rest on Doug Elgin's shoulders. I would bet it rests on the shoulders of the University presidents who just don't want to mess with a conference that they liked and required little effort on their part. Outside of the presidents of WSU, ILSU, INSU, and MSU, I don't get the feeling that the rest of them are all that interested in athletics as a part of the university's mission. Just my feeling, but if I am close to right, then that's where the bottleneck is, not Doug Elgin.
> 
> I actually like Elgin. He's done a lot of things to get our conference more exposure. Bracketbuster (his baby) in its original design was a good thing. The MVC-MWC challenge was a good thing. The RPI requirement was so good, the university AD's and presidents canned it because the coaches felt threatened by it. For a guy running a league without football to get his foot in the door, I think the guy has done pretty well. Plus, under his leadership, our conference tournament is undoubtedly one of the best in the nation.
> 
> Just my thoughts. But I sure hope they move sooner rather than later on adding schools. EIU has a lot of suitors out there...:smack: (just kidding...)



Then he needs to put the squeeze on those resistant to change. Ultimately, he is still responsible.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> Then he needs to put the squeeze on those resistant to change. Ultimately, he is still responsible.



I get what you're saying, and he's the guy responsible for setting the agenda. But, ultimately, his hands are tied if he can't get the presidents to move.  Of course, if the relationship was that bad, he'd probably resign anyway.  So you're probably closer to right than me...


----------



## 4Q_iu

IndyTreeFan said:


> Saw this on twitter on Monday, but didn't read it until today.  Interesting take on realignment in general, Butler in particular.  He's more right than wrong, but I guess it is what it is...
> 
> _ *Butler becoming a bandit school *
> 
> Two consecutive seasons of making to the Final Four, losing to Duke in Indianapolis and nearly winning the game with a Hoosiers type half court shot at the buzzer, having one of the best young coaches in college basketball has cast Butler as this classic “little school that could” character in the yearly  passion play known as the NCAA basketball tournament.
> 
> But beyond the mystique of Hinkle Field House, behind the nice Midwestern school image, another Butler exists, which could do well in the board rooms of Madison Ave or Wall Street, motivated by a bottom line, “we don’t care who we offend”‘ mentality._
> 
> 
> Read more at http://ajerseyguy.com/



Good article;  the IBJ had a good article on Butler Pres's ~1990 Plan to use MBB to build/grow the university brand...

the article is for subscribers only but here are some snippets.

_The number has always stuck in Geoffrey Bannister’s head: 1,947. That was Butler University’s enrollment in 1989.

“We were running at a deficit budget and our enrollment was in decline,” said Bannister, 66, who served as Butler president from 1988 to 2000. “Butler had lost its edge.”

Bannister had an idea to get that edge back. Make the lowly men’s Bulldog basketball team a national power, and use it as a marketing tool to engage alumni, increase annual giving to the school, and recruit more and better students and instructors.

It seemed preposterous. After all, in 1990, Butler had put up losing records in 13 of its previous 16 seasons.

By now, everyone knows the plan launched by Bannister and carried forward by his successors Bobby Fong and James Danko has been a slam dunk.

The on-court successes—including amassing winning seasons 21 of the last 23 years—have been well-documented, but the basketball plan also has boosted enrollment and fundraising to levels not even Bannister could have imagined. The basketball blueprint resulted in a marketing plan—complete with help from Disney to design the logo and mascot—that has given the tiny university a brand approaching that of the goliaths of college athletics and academics.
Attendance for home games at Hinkle Fieldhouse has gone from about 3,000 in the late 1980s to about 7,900 per game for 16 home games this year. With more games and better opponents, total home attendance has tripled from the 1980s, to 126,386 this year.

That success has translated to growth for the university as a whole: Butler’s enrollment is now at 4,200. Fueled by runs to the NCAA Final Four in 2010 and 2011, admission applications have increased from 6,760 in 2010 to 9,682 in 2012.

While the school is nearing enrollment capacity, Butler officials said the increased applications have allowed it to improve its students’ overall academic qualifications.

Annual giving at Butler is also up. The school’s haul has doubled—hitting $13.2 million with 11 weeks left in the 2013 fiscal year—since Bannister rolled out his plan.

Giving to the school’s athletic department is even more impressive. From 2008 to 2012, giving more than doubled, to $1.45 million. The department expects to exceed $1.5 million this fiscal year, which ends May 31. Those increases don’t include the $13.3 million raised since June 2010 as part of the Hinkle Campaign to refurbish Hinkle Fieldhouse.

“It’s safe to say the increase in support we saw from 2008 to 2010 gave us the confidence to launch the Hinkle Campaign,” said Rachael Burt, Butler’s executive director of alumni and engagement programs_


----------



## IndyTreeFan

4Q_iu said:


> Good article;  the IBJ had a good article on Butler Pres's ~1990 Plan to use MBB to build/grow the university brand...
> 
> the article is for subscribers only but here are some snippets.
> 
> _The number has always stuck in Geoffrey Bannister’s head: 1,947. That was Butler University’s enrollment in 1989.
> 
> “We were running at a deficit budget and our enrollment was in decline,” said Bannister, 66, who served as Butler president from 1988 to 2000. “Butler had lost its edge.”
> 
> Bannister had an idea to get that edge back. Make the lowly men’s Bulldog basketball team a national power, and use it as a marketing tool to engage alumni, increase annual giving to the school, and recruit more and better students and instructors.
> 
> It seemed preposterous. After all, in 1990, Butler had put up losing records in 13 of its previous 16 seasons.
> 
> By now, everyone knows the plan launched by Bannister and carried forward by his successors Bobby Fong and James Danko has been a slam dunk.
> 
> The on-court successes—including amassing winning seasons 21 of the last 23 years—have been well-documented, but the basketball plan also has boosted enrollment and fundraising to levels not even Bannister could have imagined. The basketball blueprint resulted in a marketing plan—complete with help from Disney to design the logo and mascot—that has given the tiny university a brand approaching that of the goliaths of college athletics and academics.
> Attendance for home games at Hinkle Fieldhouse has gone from about 3,000 in the late 1980s to about 7,900 per game for 16 home games this year. With more games and better opponents, total home attendance has tripled from the 1980s, to 126,386 this year.
> 
> That success has translated to growth for the university as a whole: Butler’s enrollment is now at 4,200. Fueled by runs to the NCAA Final Four in 2010 and 2011, admission applications have increased from 6,760 in 2010 to 9,682 in 2012.
> 
> While the school is nearing enrollment capacity, Butler officials said the increased applications have allowed it to improve its students’ overall academic qualifications.
> 
> Annual giving at Butler is also up. The school’s haul has doubled—hitting $13.2 million with 11 weeks left in the 2013 fiscal year—since Bannister rolled out his plan.
> 
> Giving to the school’s athletic department is even more impressive. From 2008 to 2012, giving more than doubled, to $1.45 million. The department expects to exceed $1.5 million this fiscal year, which ends May 31. Those increases don’t include the $13.3 million raised since June 2010 as part of the Hinkle Campaign to refurbish Hinkle Fieldhouse.
> 
> “It’s safe to say the increase in support we saw from 2008 to 2010 gave us the confidence to launch the Hinkle Campaign,” said Rachael Burt, Butler’s executive director of alumni and engagement programs_



Wow.  That's really impressive.  I wish we could have a vision like that, and then actually implement it.  Sounds like Butler wasn't in any better financial shape when they started this "program" than we are now.  Aim high.  I like it.

And for the record, I don't begrudge them the move to the Big East.  I'd love for ISU to have that kind of conundrum...


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Another thing to consider in regards to my desire to add a football school. Is the MVC missing a chance to seize a nicer media deal here? It's rumored that the Big East left over a BILLION on the table in their media rights deal in their quest to go to hoops only. If we moved closer to a unified conference, could we get a NATIONAL multi-sport media deal so our schools could be on TV more -- kinda like what the MAC has? 

With Fox Sports set to make their run at ESPN, if the MVC/MVFC positioned itself as the premiere mid-major hoops and best FCS football conference, that could be something they would be interested in as I'd imagine they plan on securing conference media rights like ESPN has.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> Another thing to consider in regards to my desire to add a football school. Is the MVC missing a chance to seize a nicer media deal here? It's rumored that the Big East left over a BILLION on the table in their media rights deal in their quest to go to hoops only. If we moved closer to a unified conference, could we get a NATIONAL multi-sport media deal so our schools could be on TV more -- kinda like what the MAC has?
> 
> With Fox Sports set to make their run at ESPN, if the MVC/MVFC positioned itself as the premiere mid-major hoops and best FCS football conference, that could be something they would be interested in as I'd imagine they plan on securing conference media rights like ESPN has.



Interesting thought.  But you'd have to avoid killing one sport for the other...that would be tough to do at the FCS level...but I actually kinda like your thinking here.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Interesting thought. But you'd have to avoid killing one sport for the other...that would be tough to do at the FCS level...but I actually kinda like your thinking here.



I don't think you would. As someone mentioned earlier, no matter who we bring in, they will likely recruit better since they'll be moving from a (likely) lower level conference to the Valley. If we had a national Fox media deal, for example, it could probably be said that everyone in the conference would improve our recruiting bases because of increased coverage area and revenues from the overall media deal.


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> Another thing to consider in regards to my desire to add a football school. Is the MVC missing a chance to seize a nicer media deal here? It's rumored that the Big East left over a BILLION on the table in their media rights deal in their quest to go to hoops only. If we moved closer to a unified conference, could we get a NATIONAL multi-sport media deal so our schools could be on TV more -- kinda like what the MAC has?
> 
> With Fox Sports set to make their run at ESPN, if the MVC/MVFC positioned itself as the premiere mid-major hoops and best FCS football conference, that could be something they would be interested in as I'd imagine they plan on securing conference media rights like ESPN has.



I know the MSU administration is adamant they want to keep the MVC and MVFC separate. It is a selfish reason in that they don't want to have to buyout of the MVC if a FBS offer is made. Furthermore wasn't the MVFC football contract worth nothing. Would we be robbing basketball to prop up football?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

agrinut said:


> I know the MSU administration is adamant they want to keep the MVC and MVFC separate. It is a selfish reason in that they don't want to have to buyout of the MVC if a FBS offer is made. Furthermore wasn't the MVFC football contract worth nothing. Would we be robbing basketball to prop up football?



All depends on what we could get, no? 

From what I'm understanding, Fox Sports is moving to a 24 hour sports station like ESPN and will run something like Sportscenter and then will need to fill out programming. Since they already have all of their regional channels as an optional sports package with most providers, I'd imagine their goal is to get them onto the main tiers like ESPN2/ESPNU are. Throw in the fact that ESPN has the rights to most of the bigger conferences and we may have something they'd be willing to pay for. Hope I'm explaining this... it makes sense in my mind.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> All depends on what we could get, no?
> 
> From what I'm understanding, Fox Sports is moving to a 24 hour sports station like ESPN and will run something like Sportscenter and then will need to fill out programming. Since they already have all of their regional channels as an optional sports package with most providers, I'd imagine their goal is to get them onto the main tiers like ESPN2/ESPNU are. Throw in the fact that ESPN has the rights to most of the bigger conferences and we may have something they'd be willing to pay for. Hope I'm explaining this... it makes sense in my mind.



It makes sense; from a pure logical, common-sensical position.   The RUB will be the bottom-line; it's about TV eyes and Ad Revenue; you can't get a LOT of TV eyes with small media markets and customers (read Alumni).

So, I've no idea what the overall MVC and MVFC alumni numbers are; but I'd bet we're hard-pressed to be in the Top 10 of Div I conferences.   Maybe add The Pioneer Football League to the mix...


----------



## ISUCC

Jason Svoboda said:


> Another thing to consider in regards to my desire to add a football school. Is the MVC missing a chance to seize a nicer media deal here? It's rumored that the Big East left over a BILLION on the table in their media rights deal in their quest to go to hoops only. If we moved closer to a unified conference, could we get a NATIONAL multi-sport media deal so our schools could be on TV more -- kinda like what the MAC has?
> 
> With Fox Sports set to make their run at ESPN, *if the MVC/MVFC positioned itself as the premiere mid-major hoops and best FCS football conference, that could be something they would be interested in as I'd imagine they plan on securing conference media rights like ESPN has*.



problem with this is that about 1% of the US population cares about I-AA football. And it may be less than that honestly


----------



## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> problem with this is that about 1% of the US population cares about I-AA football. And it may be less than that honestly



ESPN used to fill air time with re-runs of the 1977 Worlds Strongest Man, NWA/Texas wrestling and MISL soccer. MAC and other FBS low level conference football doesn't get good ratings, either.


----------



## ISUCC

we need someone to start up the "MVC network" like the Big 10 network. It would be a midwest only network television station, and show all sports, interviews with coaches/players, etc....


----------



## ISUCC

from MVCfans.com


MVC Commish Doug Elgin press conference

Postby MVCfans » March 20th, 2013, 2:38 pm
Said a lot following the announcement that Creighton is leaving, but nothing earth shattering. I'll try to post audio if I can.

-MVC would be fine with 9 teams next season
-Elgin thinks 10 is the right number of teams
-not going to rush adding a new school
-does not expect any additional departures
-Creighton has no exit fee, but will not receive distribution of NCAA funds


----------



## ISUCC

this just tells me the MVC is going to sit and watch as other conferences add a school (or schools) that the MVC might be considering. We really need to get to 10 before next season.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> this just tells me the MVC is going to sit and watch as other conferences add a school (or schools) that the MVC might be considering. We really need to get to 10 before next season.


Ugh.


----------



## ISUCC

ugh is right, here are Elgin's comments

http://www.courierpressblogs.com/sports/ue/?p=3950


----------



## IndyTreeFan

If they sit quietly and do nothing while the other conferences move, I'll take back everything good I've said about Elgin...


----------



## 4Q_iu

ISUCC said:


> this just tells me the MVC is going to sit and watch* as other conferences add a school (or schools) that the MVC might be considering. *We really need to get to 10 before next season.



Please name the conference(s) and school(s) that are causing you this ANGST?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> Please name the conference(s) and school(s) that are causing you this ANGST?



I'm going to guess the A10 is going to try to start recouping their losses, especially since SLU and Dayton are rumored as possible future BE additions. You've also got movement all around at several of the lower-level conferences so if they get more teams raided, it could cause more dominoes.

Forgot that the renamed Big East will likely pilfer from somewhere. C-USA is also pulling new schools in.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> I'm going to guess the A10 is going to try to start recouping their losses, especially since SLU and Dayton are rumored as possible future BE additions. You've also got movement all around at several of the lower-level conferences so if they get more teams raided, it could cause more dominoes.
> 
> Forgot that the renamed Big East will likely pilfer from somewhere. C-USA is also pulling new schools in.



Ok...  so what are the schools that will be deciding between us (MVC), the "old" big east (still gonna be FBall centric) the Atl-10 (their losses put them AT ~10-11 FROM 16 today) and C-USA?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

4Q_iu said:


> Ok...  so what are the schools that will be deciding between us (MVC), the "old" big east (still gonna be FBall centric) the Atl-10 (their losses put them AT ~10-11 FROM 16 today) and C-USA?



Summit, Horizon and others are also looking for teams or getting new teams which then opens spots down the line. They all have to pull from somewhere. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_basketball

Go conference by conference and look at all of the pink. Those are teams that are moving. Very few leagues don't have people moving. Hell, even the lower leagues are swapping around. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–12_NCAA_conference_realignment


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> Summit, Horizon and others are also looking for teams or getting new teams which then opens spots down the line. They all have to pull from somewhere.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_basketball
> 
> Go conference by conference and look at all of the pink. Those are teams that are moving. Very few leagues don't have people moving. Hell, even the lower leagues are swapping around.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–12_NCAA_conference_realignment



I've been watching a lot of that movement; virtually NONE of it concerns MBB.  C-USA, Sunbelt, WAC demise, etc  Football...

I don't see any Atl-10 teams moving TO the "old Big East" (America 12?)  THe Atl-10 plays no football, non-scholie football OR CAA Football.  The Horizon... the same, except drop CAA Football and Add Pioneer Football.  The Summit... no football.

What COULD happen, we grab 1-3 of the schools mentioned, (Denver, Belmont, ORU, Valpo and or Loyola...) and the Summit and Horizon MERGE.

MOST of the Atl-10, Colonial and other schools are simply TOO FAR AWAY for us (MVC) to consider.  It's a level of $$ we (MVC) can't meet.

I'm FOR a unified MVC/MVFC but I don't think it will happen. (or at least not for 15+ years)


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Again, all depends on who goes for who. For example, was reading some A10 boards today and they talked about going after Wichita State and Belmont. Depending on how slow the MVC is to react, it could get stuck with unappealing options.


----------



## sycamore tuff

agrinut said:


> *I think the best way to describe it is we are Shopping our Football program but plan on leaving everything else in the league.* Elgin makes no decision on adding teams. Furthermore aside from ISUb, DU, BU and SIU who hasn't expressed a desire to move? ISUr had interest but I'm guessing the scaling back of their stadium stops that talk. UNI would love to but their new president is known for scaling back athletics not bolstering them. WSU is on an island so I'm not sure they have options but I bet the would listen if anyone wanted to talk. If the valley wants to stabilize the league I think a private school is the only way to go. Personally I would love ORU as it is a 2 hour drive for MSU and WSU we already travel more than everyone else.



I didn't know the pioneer league was that hard to get in to.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

sycamore tuff said:


> I didn't know the pioneer league was that hard to get in to.


LMAO. ags, even you got to think that's funny.


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> LMAO. ags, even you got to think that's funny.



Oh I can laugh! A couple of years ago I would have been all for it. I don't think we are doing a stadium renovation to go nonscholly though.


----------



## region rat

This is why we don't need any teams from the Dakota's!


----------



## ISUCC

nothing new, just an interview with Elgin from 2 days ago. 

http://articles.kwch.com/2013-03-20/missouri-valley-football-conference_37881623

adding one and waiting to see what happens with the A-10 would be a good idea, if Dayton and SLU do not receive invites to the new Big East, then the MVC makes a major push to get them, and get to 12 schools.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Someone on mvcfans.com this morning said he heard, "from a normally solid source," that Oral Bob to the MVC was all but a done deal.  Just more discussion fodder for the masses...


----------



## ISUCC

IndyTreeFan said:


> Someone on mvcfans.com this morning said he heard, "from a normally solid source," that Oral Bob to the MVC was all but a done deal.  Just more discussion fodder for the masses...



I would be totally ok with that. ORU is closer to ISU than WSU and adds a western team with baseball. We'll see??


----------



## 4Q_iu

ISUCC said:


> nothing new, just an interview with Elgin from 2 days ago.
> 
> http://articles.kwch.com/2013-03-20/missouri-valley-football-conference_37881623
> 
> adding one and waiting to see what happens with the A-10 would be a good idea, if Dayton and SLU do not receive invites to the new Big East, then the MVC makes a major push to get them, and get to 12 schools.



I like the idea of adding SLU and Dayton, except that leaves us with 11 schools...  who's your 12th?


The PROBLEM??  How do convince SLU and Dayton that The Valley is their BEST Option over where they've been for years??


----------



## Title_BU

Dayton ultimately is unlikely to be invited, but neither Saint Louis nor Dayton will do anything at all until the Big East expansion has completed over the next few years.

I can't imagine SLU will not be invited in due time.


----------



## 4Q_iu

IndyTreeFan said:


> Someone on mvcfans.com this morning said he heard, "from a normally solid source," that Oral Bob to the MVC was all but a done deal.  Just more discussion fodder for the masses...



I'd still prefer trips to Chi-town than Tulsa...   recently there were some (apparently) SIGNIFICANT $$$ issues with the stability/feasibility of Oral Robts  Univ.    Are THOSE settled?  If they are NOT, I've NO interest in them.    And I'm not a big fan of their namesake either


----------



## BrokerZ

ISUCC said:


> nothing new, just an interview with Elgin from 2 days ago.
> 
> http://articles.kwch.com/2013-03-20/missouri-valley-football-conference_37881623
> 
> adding one and waiting to see what happens with the A-10 would be a good idea, if Dayton and SLU do not receive invites to the new Big East, then the MVC makes a major push to get them, and get to 12 schools.



_How does a football school, like North Dakota State or South Dakota State, play into the potential plans?

It doesn’t. It’s true that five current Valley schools play under the umbrella of the Missouri Valley Football Conference, but it’s actually a separate organization. "In no way does football enter into this equation," Elgin said._

Sorry, Jason.  I know this was a big item on your wish list, but it doesn't sound like the MVFC will have any impact on the decision.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

The conference presidents are not obligated to follow Elgin's recommendations.  In fact, if there were a new commissioner the whole strategy could change.  I don't expect this to occur, but in this athletic atmosphere nothing would shock me.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BrokerZ said:


> _How does a football school, like North Dakota State or South Dakota State, play into the potential plans?
> 
> It doesn’t. It’s true that five current Valley schools play under the umbrella of the Missouri Valley Football Conference, but it’s actually a separate organization. "In no way does football enter into this equation," Elgin said._
> 
> Sorry, Jason.  I know this was a big item on your wish list, but it doesn't sound like the MVFC will have any impact on the decision.



I saw that. And yet, Oral Roberts is apparently the best we can do. Maybe it's time for him to go.


----------



## ISUCC

as reported by Long Gone in the ncaa thread, George Mason to the A-10 tomorrow

http://www.vcuramnation.com/forums/threads/george-mason-joining-a-10.11308/


----------



## Gotta Hav

My new candidate to join the Missouri Valley Conference is, FLORIDA GOLF COAST COLLEGE.


----------



## Bally #50

ISUCC said:


> as reported by Long Gone in the ncaa thread, George Mason to the A-10 tomorrow
> 
> http://www.vcuramnation.com/forums/threads/george-mason-joining-a-10.11308/


Funny, a couple of us said last week that any team they add to the MVC, the odds of too many on here "liking" the choice was going to be slim. It would appear that they too, have the same problem. I truly have not heard one possibility that EVERYONE liked. Maybe St. Louis and Dayton but they aren't going anywhere.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

The stability of the MAC, like about all other conferences, is also at risk I would think.  The Valley would make a good home for Ball State and Northern Illinois????


----------



## bent20

It doesn't really matter who we add. The Valley is still going to be a strong conference with name recognition. I'm more worried about whether or not we can take advantage of the opportunity this allows us. Creighton dominated the conference for years, now there is an opening for others to step into that elite role.


----------



## Bally #50

Sycamore Proud said:


> The stability of the MAC, like about all other conferences, is also at risk I would think.  The Valley would make a good home for Ball State and Northern Illinois????


You know I have been wishing that some form of merger between the MAC and the MVC would happen someday. As much as I would love to have NIU, they are logically moving UP because unlike many of the MAC schools, they draw pretty well in football and they also WIN, which of course, not too many MAC schools do.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

bent20 said:


> It doesn't really matter who we add. The Valley is still going to be a strong conference with name recognition. I'm more worried about whether or not we can *take advantage of the opportunity* this allows us. Creighton dominated the conference for years, now there is an opening for others to step into that elite role.



Who? ISU?? To paraphrase Alfred E. Neuman "What us fail?"  We could find the middle of a weaker conference--the way we play to the level of our competition it should be no problem at all.


----------



## ISUCC

finally some news folks

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsext...tid=234&articleid=20130326_234_0_TheMis322605


----------



## agrinut

Doug Elgin was on Springfield radio this morning. He said on the air that they are  not looking at any teams that sponsor FCS or FBS football.


----------



## 4Q_iu

agrinut said:


> Doug Elgin was on Springfield radio this morning. He said on the air that they are  not looking at any teams that sponsor FCS or FBS football.



I've no issue with that 'requirement' --- it essentially replaces Creighton as an entity.

I'm still NOT a fan of adding ORU, I'm guessing the shockers are 'demanding' a school closer to them...

Would STILL like to see Drake upgrade to MVFC football and we nudge the Penguins O-U-T


----------



## ISUCC

Tulsa sports writer pushing for ORU admission to the MVC

http://www.tulsaworld.com/sportsext...tid=203&articleid=20130328_203_B1_Tulsas39837


----------



## SycamoreFan317

4Q_iu said:


> I've no issue with that 'requirement' --- it essentially replaces Creighton as an entity.
> 
> I'm still NOT a fan of adding ORU, I'm guessing the shockers are 'demanding' a school closer to them...
> 
> *Would STILL like to see Drake upgrade to MVFC football and we nudge the Penguins O-U-T*




What is stopping that from happening?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

I still think Elgin is making a mistake by not throughly investigating the possibility of unifying the conference. You've now got North Dakota State University looking at possibly jumping to FBS football. You've had Missouri State and Illinois State looking into it for a couple years now, making renovations, etc. 

Outside of the "new" Big East, all of the realignment has been about football and the potential dollars there. The only reason the Big East can get away with doing what they're doing is because those schools don't have scholarship football. I know Missouri State has said they'd like to stay in the Valley and move to FBS ball, but no conference worth it's weight is going to let them do that. They'd either have to go independent or move into something like Conference USA, which will pull them out of the Valley for all other sports, especially in today's conference landscape. 

I just have a bad feeling that members of the MVC/MVFC are going to be caught with their pants down when this big game of musical chairs finally stops going. Further, Oral Roberts does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for me. If you're going to get a replacement for Creighton that is hoops only, this is a major let down IMO.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Jason Svoboda said:


> I still think Elgin is making a mistake by not throughly investigating the possibility of unifying the conference. You've now got North Dakota State University looking at possibly jumping to FBS football. You've had Missouri State and Illinois State looking into it for a couple years now, making renovations, etc.
> 
> Outside of the "new" Big East, all of the realignment has been about football and the potential dollars there. The only reason the Big East can get away with doing what they're doing is because those schools don't have scholarship football. I know Missouri State has said they'd like to stay in the Valley and move to FBS ball, but no conference worth it's weight is going to let them do that. They'd either have to go independent or move into something like Conference USA, which will pull them out of the Valley for all other sports, especially in today's conference landscape.
> 
> *I just have a bad feeling that members of the MVC/MVFC are going to be caught with their pants down when this big game of musical chairs finally stops going*. Further, Oral Roberts does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for me. If you're going to get a replacement for Creighton that is hoops only, this is a major let down IMO.



I agree with this 100%.  I don't have a whole lot of confidence in Eglin right now.  If he is carefully planning for the future of the MVC, he is doing an outstanding job of hiding it.  I'm afraid it may be the tail wagging the dog.


----------



## Bally #50

I too, agree 100%. On the Iowa trip, RP was on the bus and I so much wanted to ask him what was going to happen with the Creighton deal. The only thing I could get out of him was that they had a plan in place and that their replacement should happen quickly. I was aware that ORU was probably on the top of the list and all I had to do was ask him, but that was a long day and really wasn't up for any idle chatter because I was pooped and pissed about the game and I would assume he was as well. Then Elgin says he wants a non-football school after some excellent points were made on here on how WSU and Creighton have a huge advantage because of funds going ALL to hoops. I am not sure what to think. ORU doesn't do anything for me because Richard Roberts, Oral's son, stole MILLIONS from a school while preaching the bible. That repulses me. Well, it hasn't happened quick and like I said earlier, almost ANY choice they come up will not be well-liked on SP.


----------



## ISUCC

Jason Svoboda said:


> I still think Elgin is making a mistake by not throughly investigating the possibility of unifying the conference. You've now got North Dakota State University looking at possibly jumping to FBS football. You've had Missouri State and Illinois State looking into it for a couple years now, making renovations, etc.
> 
> Outside of the "new" Big East, all of the realignment has been about football and the potential dollars there. The only reason the Big East can get away with doing what they're doing is because those schools don't have scholarship football. I know Missouri State has said they'd like to stay in the Valley and move to FBS ball, but no conference worth it's weight is going to let them do that. They'd either have to go independent or move into something like Conference USA, which will pull them out of the Valley for all other sports, especially in today's conference landscape.
> 
> I just have a bad feeling that members of the MVC/MVFC are going to be caught with their pants down when this big game of musical chairs finally stops going. Further, Oral Roberts does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for me. *If you're going to get a replacement for Creighton that is hoops only, this is a major let down IMO*.



I'd be curious to know who you want? Remember, it has to be a school that does not play football, and preferably private, so who is your top choice?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> I'd be curious to know who you want? Remember, it has to be a school that does not play football, and preferably private, so who is your top choice?



No, it doesn't have to be therefore I refuse to make a choice. Hey, I know you make $200k a year. Which car do you want to drive? You can only select from a Toyota Yaris, Honda Fit and Geo Metro. Yeah... no. If Drake can be in the league and plays non-scholarship football, then Dayton and Valpo are acceptable choices IMO if we absolutely have to go that route.

If Elgin is this rigid or is being strongarmed by Wichita State, maybe it's time that we try to break off and form a new conference or join a different one.


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> No, it doesn't have to be therefore I refuse to make a choice. Hey, I know you make $200k a year. Which car do you want to drive? You can only select from a Toyota Yaris, Honda Fit and Geo Metro. Yeah... no. If Drake can be in the league and plays non-scholarship football, then Dayton and Valpo are acceptable choices IMO if we absolutely have to go that route.
> 
> If Elgin is this rigid or is being strongarmed by Wichita State, maybe it's time that we try to break off and form a new conference or join a different one.


NOW YOU ARE TALKING! I'd give you a thank you but hell, you already have 360 of them.


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> No, it doesn't have to be therefore I refuse to make a choice. Hey, I know you make $200k a year. Which car do you want to drive? You can only select from a Toyota Yaris, Honda Fit and Geo Metro. Yeah... no. If Drake can be in the league and plays non-scholarship football, then Dayton and Valpo are acceptable choices IMO if we absolutely have to go that route.
> 
> If Elgin is this rigid or is being strongarmed by Wichita State, maybe it's time that we try to break off and form a new conference or join a different one.



I think they would look at non scholarship schools. Personally I think Wichita will sponsor football soon.


----------



## ISUCC

not to keep arguing with you guys, but another reason the dakota schools will not be coming to the MVC anytime soon is because they currently hold their league's BB tournament in south dakota, it's a home game for both the south dakota schools and the tourney is locked up to be in south dakota for 10-20 more years. There is NO WAY in the world they are going to give up home court advantage for a bid to the NCAA tourney for both men and women. They are going to do everything in their powers to keep their league together so they can keep that tourney at home.


----------



## region rat

Weather is a major factor not to have either of the Dakota teams.


----------



## Fife

*Belmont?*

Is Belmont a real possibility?  I would travel to Nashville to see ISU play.


----------



## Bally #50

Yes, and confirmed. STRONG candidate supposedly.  P.S.  Not endorsing that opinion, just saying that they are on the short list.


----------



## Sycamore624

Fife said:


> Is Belmont a real possibility?  I would travel to Nashville to see ISU play.



Just another great excuses to go to Music City!


----------



## tjbison

ISUCC said:


> not to keep arguing with you guys, but another reason the dakota schools will not be coming to the MVC anytime soon is because they currently hold their league's BB tournament in south dakota, it's a home game for both the south dakota schools and the tourney is locked up to be in south dakota for 10-20 more years. There is NO WAY in the world they are going to give up home court advantage for a bid to the NCAA tourney for both men and women. They are going to do everything in their powers to keep their league together so they can keep that tourney at home.



Not true, NDSU would bolt in a heartbeat for either a good Basketball conference or an FBS invite.  Having the tournament in SD doesn't matter at all, I have a feeling we will be putting out feelers to let it b known we want FBS, the MVFC/Summit appears to unstable right now


----------



## agrinut

Personally what I would like to see is the MVFC dissolve. Have the valley pickup football as a sport (allow drake to play non-scholarship and convince WSU to pick it up) add a FCS football school and send the XDSU's back to Canada. It hurts all of the schools image to be involved with them. Perception is often reality in marketing and you cannot market the Dakota's. I don't care how many national championships NDSU wins, the deteriorate the league "prestige"


----------



## Jason Svoboda

agrinut said:


> Personally what I would like to see is the MVFC dissolve. Have the valley pickup football as a sport (allow drake to play non-scholarship and convince WSU to pick it up) add a FCS football school and send the XDSU's back to Canada. It hurts all of the schools image to be involved with them. Perception is often reality in marketing and you cannot market the Dakota's. I don't care how many national championships NDSU wins, the deteriorate the league "prestige"


Interesting thoughts. Did you read the TSN article from this thread?

http://www.sycamorepride.com/showthread.php?24333-End-of-the-FCS-as-we-know-it-is-looming


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> Interesting thoughts. Did you read the TSN article from this thread?
> 
> http://www.sycamorepride.com/showthread.php?24333-End-of-the-FCS-as-we-know-it-is-looming



I had not, but have now. I agree that FCS football today is dying. FCS today will likely be D2 tomorrow.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Am I missing something? What is the allure to moving up to a conference like the Sun Belt only to never have a chance to win a championship?


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> Am I missing something? What is the allure to moving up to a conference like the Sun Belt only to never have a chance to win a championship?



Prestige, FCS football is essentially D2 already. If MSU can move football to the sunbelt and keep everything else in the valley do you blame them? MSU did a survey in Springfield and the results showed that less then 20,000 people were interested in FCS football. That is all I needed to know.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

agrinut said:


> Prestige, FCS football is essentially D2 already. If MSU can move football to the sunbelt and keep everything else in the valley do you blame them? MSU did a survey in Springfield and the results showed that less then 20,000 people were interested in FCS football. That is all I needed to know.


The problem is that moving up, you're still a directional school and they still won't be interested. Your students will still be rooting for Big 12 schools that they grew up rooting for. Look at most of the smaller FBS conferences as they sit. Most of them have reported attendance of 60% or less and most of those schools are paying big cash to maintain the 15k attendance rules. 

Just found this... I agree with it. Only 40 teams have ever won titles. What's the point? What prestige is there to be gained by going 6-5 on a good year and paying $200k to go to the Bukakke.com Interplanetary Awareness Bowl?

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2013/3/28/4156464/college-football-teams-fbs


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> The problem is that moving up, you're still a directional school and they still won't be interested. Your students will still be rooting for Big 12 schools that they grew up rooting for. Look at most of the smaller FBS conferences as they sit. Most of them have reported attendance of 60% or less and most of those schools are paying big cash to maintain the 15k attendance rules.
> 
> Just found this... I agree with it. Only 40 teams have ever won titles. What's the point? What prestige is there to be gained by going 6-5 on a good year and paying $200k to go to the Bukakke.com Interplanetary Awareness Bowl?
> 
> http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2013/3/28/4156464/college-football-teams-fbs



That is the reason a move to FBS is important. MSU is the 2nd largest school in Missouri, if they ever want to ditch the directional school tag they have to make a move. As for competitiveness most Bears fans will take a 6-5 record all the way to the bank.


----------



## Bally #50

agrinut said:


> That is the reason a move to FBS is important. MSU is the 2nd largest school in Missouri, if they ever want to ditch the directional school tag they have to make a move. As for competitiveness most Bears fans will take a 6-5 record all the way to the bank.


Agrinut, if you get a chance, see if you agree with I just wrote in the "end of the FBS" thread.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

agrinut said:


> That is the reason a move to FBS is important. MSU is the 2nd largest school in Missouri, if they ever want to ditch the directional school tag they have to make a move. As for competitiveness most Bears fans will take a 6-5 record all the way to the bank.



You really think you can shed that stigma?

The problem is, IMO, that it has been too long to make the move. The moves needed to be done before the sport took off -- probably in the 70s or 80s. You've now got generations of rooting interest embedded within families. Look at Notre Dame for a prime example of that. Prior to this year, they haven't won since the 80s yet they still have one of, if not the largest, national fan base because it is ingrained in family fabric and it's growing every year. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see it. The reason why I feel confident in that belief is I can look at college hoops, where everyone is on the same playing field and you still have the same thing going on. I'd be willing to bet a large majority of your student population are Tiger fans over Bear fans just as a majority of our students and alumni are Hoosier or Boilermaker fans over Sycamore fans. Again, maybe I'm wrong. I'd love to be wrong.


----------



## bent20

The directional Michigan schools, for example, don't seem to be that much better off. Did sort of pay off for NIU this year though with the Orange Bowl appearance.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

bent20 said:


> The directional Michigan schools, for example, don't seem to be that much better off. Did sort of pay off for NIU this year though with the Orange Bowl appearance.


Because all of their students are Michigan or Michigan State fans. 

The last article I could find on the Orange Bowl stated that NIU wasn't sure if they would make or lose money until the final numbers came in. This despite the MAC receiving a $8m payout from the Orange Bowl.


----------



## tjbison

agrinut said:


> Personally what I would like to see is the MVFC dissolve. Have the valley pickup football as a sport (allow drake to play non-scholarship and convince WSU to pick it up) add a FCS football school and send the XDSU's back to Canada. It hurts all of the schools image to be involved with them. Perception is often reality in marketing and you cannot market the Dakota's. I don't care how many national championships NDSU wins, the deteriorate the league "prestige"



Really??  You really think we are that bad?  Indiana St has not exactly been a marketable university has it?

Please explain how it has hurt ISU to be associated with us, especially when I watched your administration stand I awe of our facilities and support.


----------



## ISUCC

tjbison said:


> Really??  You really think we are that bad?  Indiana St has not exactly been a marketable university has it?
> 
> Please explain how it has hurt ISU to be associated with us, especially when I watched your administration stand I awe of our facilities and support.



TJ, arginut is a Missouri State alum and fan, so it's ok for you to be confused.


----------



## agrinut

I could care less about NDSU's facilities and support. Being in a league with the XDSU'S in my opinion is a killer for perception. FCS national championships are great, would love to win one, but know one could tell you who won it this year. Focus should be put separating the current members of the MVC from the low majors.


----------



## agrinut

ISUCC said:


> TJ, arginut is a Missouri State alum and fan, so it's ok for you to be confused.



I'm not trying to speak for anyone other then myself. I do think that playing in a league with the XDSU's hurt the league.


----------



## Bally #50

agrinut said:


> I'm not trying to speak for anyone other then myself. I do think that playing in a league with the XDSU's hurt the league.


AGRI, I am not too sure I have ever disagreed with you but personally, I am thrilled to have them play in our conference. NDSU needs no explanation because of their reputation. The Dakota fans are first class, their facilities are first class, and I could care less how much we pay to travel there. RP said it worked for him. 

That said, I am NOT a fan of the MVCFC and never have been. It is what it is but I would much prefer having a conference that represents ALL sports, period. To single out the North and South Dakota schools because they are cold or out of the way does not work for me. Youngstown is in an old dirty steel town and is no worse than Fargo, come on now. 

And before you bad mouth me about my Youngstown comment, my home town in PA is a spitting image of that town and I only used it to make a point and nothing more.


----------



## agrinut

Bally #46 said:


> AGRI, I am not too sure I have ever disagreed with you but personally, I am thrilled to have them play in our conference. NDSU needs no explanation because of their reputation. The Dakota fans are first class, their facilities are first class, and I could care less how much we pay to travel there. RP said it worked for him.
> 
> That said, I am NOT a fan of the MVCFC and never have been. It is what it is but I would much prefer having a conference that represents ALL sports, period. To single out the North and South Dakota schools because they are cold or out of the way does not work for me. Youngstown is in an old dirty steel town and is no worse than Fargo, come on now.
> 
> And before you bad mouth me about my Youngstown comment, my home town in PA is a spitting image of that town and I only used it to make a point and nothing more.



From a competition stance I agree 100% where I lose the taste is perception. I have no doubt that common perception of North Dakota is way off, the problem is I don't see that ever changing. NDSU has great support, no doubt about that. I know I'm
Being selfish, maybe unrealistic, but I want to be excited about my league counterparts. The Dakota's don't do it for me.


----------



## Bally #50

I admit that it might feel like Siberia up there and I have no (immediate) plans to attend a football game, but I am impressed with their fans, at least the ones on here, but since we are talking hoops, they likely don't excite me there too much. As I keep saying, we "ain't gonna luv" any of these replacements more than likely.


----------



## goyotes

The MVFC is one of the top FCS conferences in the country but changes in either the MVC or Summit could put the future of the MVFC in jeopardy.   The Summit is obviously not on the same level as the MVC in basketball.  One move that might stabilize both conferences would be for the MVC not to add any teams and instead for the MVC and Summit to reach a scheduling agreement with 3 - 4 crossover games per team per year with the MVC teams getting 2 home games for every road game and the games being scheduled on a geographic basis as much as possilbe.


----------



## region rat

goyotes said:


> The MVFC is one of the top FCS conferences in the country but changes in either the MVC or Summit could put the future of the MVFC in jeopardy.   The Summit is obviously not on the same level as the MVC in basketball.  One move that might stabilize both conferences would be for the MVC not to add any teams and instead for the MVC and Summit to reach a scheduling agreement with 3 - 4 crossover games per team per year with the MVC teams getting 2 home games for every road game and the games being scheduled on a geographic basis as much as possilbe.



Outofbox thinking, nice.


----------



## agrinut

goyotes said:


> The MVFC is one of the top FCS conferences in the country but changes in either the MVC or Summit could put the future of the MVFC in jeopardy.   The Summit is obviously not on the same level as the MVC in basketball.  One move that might stabilize both conferences would be for the MVC not to add any teams and instead for the MVC and Summit to reach a scheduling agreement with 3 - 4 crossover games per team per year with the MVC teams getting 2 home games for every road game and the games being scheduled on a geographic basis as much as possilbe.



Gag, don't need help getting games against low majors. MVFC stability is not an issue is it?


----------



## SycamoreFan317

goyotes said:


> The MVFC is one of the top FCS conferences in the country but changes in either the MVC or Summit could put the future of the MVFC in jeopardy.   The Summit is obviously not on the same level as the MVC in basketball.  One move that might stabilize both conferences would be for the MVC not to add any teams and instead for the MVC and Summit to reach a scheduling agreement with 3 - 4 crossover games per team per year with the MVC teams getting 2 home games for every road game and the games being scheduled on a geographic basis as much as possilbe.



I would rather the MVC work at a scheduling agreement similiar to this with the Horizon League than the Summitt.


----------



## sycamore tuff

agrinut said:


> I'm not trying to speak for anyone other then myself. I do think that playing in a league with the XDSU's hurt the league.



I think what you should have said is that they hurt your record.  Two losses a year to them might make you not want to play them again.


----------



## agrinut

sycamore tuff said:


> I think what you should have said is that they hurt your record.  Two losses a year to them might make you not want to play them again.



Don't know about that, MSU has played well against the Dakota schools. The last thing I'm worried about is a couple of losses in football.


----------



## sycamore tuff

So, maybe you are afraid they might beat you in basketball?  iu is afraid to lose us so they don't schedule us anymore.


----------



## SycamoreStateofMind

Without reading this entire thread - cuz I don't care... Lol Just kidding.

But I have three questions:

1. Who do you think is coming to the Valley? If anyone...

2. Who do you want to come to the Valley?

3. Has Murray gotten any talk/consideration?

Fill me in folks - this conference talk is for the birds if you askin me.


----------



## agrinut

sycamore tuff said:


> So, maybe you are afraid they might beat you in basketball?  iu is afraid to lose us so they don't schedule us anymore.



You got me.... Really? I'm more concerned about adding another UE type program.


----------



## tjbison

agrinut said:


> I could care less about NDSU's facilities and support. Being in a league with the XDSU'S in my opinion is a killer for perception. FCS national championships are great, would love to win one, but know one could tell you who won it this year. Focus should be put separating the current members of the MVC from the low majors.



Ok, I apologize to the ISU faithful no clue you were a misery st fan, so ill ask you when the last time MSU was a national house hold name??? Hell you guys even changed your name to try and get better recognition....right?  I love the fact we have hundreds coming into my home state for 100K+ a year jobs every day yet people think because we play them in sports we hurt their reputation even though their own lack of support and poor administration hurt them more...  My drem would for MSU to drop football cause you guys suck and I woul love to send you and Texas to Mexico


And btw even your might administration came to Fargo in awe of our fans and support.....sorry to shock you but Fargo isn't as bad as you think


----------



## Sycamore624

Haven't read the entire thread so sorry if already been mentioned but what about Western Kentucky?


----------



## Parsons

They are in the Sunbelt and   moved up in football to I A. It would be a step down in their world.


----------



## agrinut

tjbison said:


> And btw even your might administration came to Fargo in awe of our fans and support.....sorry to shock you but Fargo isn't as bad as you think



I was on that trip, there was no awe.... I don't deny your support, I do deny that you are any type of a national name. Take a poll, no one knows who won the FCS championship last year. I want nothing to do with adding anything in the Dakota's. it doesn't make sense on any level, it depreciates the current value.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

UMKC? Are you fucking kidding me?

Ags, would you take UMKC over NDSU?

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...21983753/umkc-gets-looks-from-missouri-valley


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> UMKC? Are you fucking kidding me?
> 
> Ags, would you take UMKC over NDSU?
> 
> http://www.cbssports.com/collegebas...21983753/umkc-gets-looks-from-missouri-valley



No, I wouldn't take either. I would stay at 9 before touching either.


----------



## TreeTop

UMKC, that's pretty bad.

No baseball team even.


----------



## Gotta Hav

Really, can you spell BOHICA?  Talk about a SNAFU, if that's best that Elgin and staff can come up with...we need a new leader for the MVC.  

Might as well ask IUPUI, UWM, or IPFW as UMKC....Elgin must be thinking that UMKC will become the UCLA of the MVC.

What's next, an invitation for ITT?    What about FAMU, they've been in the news lately.


----------



## ISUCC

stay at 9 before we take UMKC, that would be awful. 

again, my preference is to add 1, stay at 10 for a year until we see how the new Big East shakes out.


----------



## ISUCC

it's down to 4 schools folks

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/03/31/4154451/umkc-to-get-missouri-valley-conference.html

UMKC
Valpo
UI-C
Loyola-Chicago


----------



## Bluethunder

Unless it is Valpo, skip the other three and stay at nine.  Don't just add someone for the sake of adding someone.  UMKC would be a joke and a huge dead carcass for the rest of the league to drag around.  Illinois Chicago and Loyola Chicago would be evervso slightly better, but would still absolutely suck.

If this is the best Elgin and his staff can come up with despite hearing for months that Creighton was likely to leave, then he should be shown the door.  Pathetic doesn't even come close to describing this list.


----------



## bent20

I don't see why everyone is anxious about this. It's not going to do that much to the conference's credibility to add a school that's not already a big name. Personally, I'd rather not add a school near us and give us even more of recruiting battle.


----------



## ISUCC

They may very well do site visits at all 4 schools and decide not to add any of them. Wait it out a year at 9 schools and see what happens in 2014??

it would be bad for scheduling for men's BB, but hopefully it would only be for one season


----------



## IndyTreeFan

ISUCC said:


> it's down to 4 schools folks
> 
> http://www.kansascity.com/2013/03/31/4154451/umkc-to-get-missouri-valley-conference.html
> 
> UMKC
> Valpo
> UI-C
> Loyola-Chicago



Well, some of you wanted to play in the OVC.  Looks like your dream is about to come true.

Seriously, this is the best they can do?  Who the hell is running that flea circus?  Talk about an completely uninspiring list of candidates.  Let's just go with some high school teams, and we will do as well.

If they add any of these, I look for Wichita State to bolt at the first opportunity.  And they'll go MAKE an opportunity.  Just when they are starting to build a national reputation, we go looking at psuedo-DIII schools.  And when Wichita bolts, the MVC really, really sucks.  Oh well, we might be able to win in a crappy conference, so that'll make it alright.  Pathetic.  I'd rather stay at 9 forever.  Puke...


----------



## SycamoreFan317

I would take Valpo first and Loyola second. The Ramblers are on their way back to respectability, the other two do nothing for me at all.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreFan317 said:


> I would take Valpo first and Loyola second. The Ramblers are on their way back to respectability, the other two do nothing for me at all.



That's how I see it, too. I rank them like my list below and if I couldn't get #1 or #2, I look around more.  

1) Valpo
2) Loyola
3) UIC
4) UMKC


----------



## Jason Svoboda

bent20 said:


> I don't see why everyone is anxious about this. It's not going to do that much to the conference's credibility to add a school that's not already a big name. Personally, I'd rather not add a school near us and give us even more of recruiting battle.


We actually recruit against Loyola more than anyone on that list looking at previous recruits. Only two teams that I don't remember any recruits having been offered by is Valpo and UMKC.


----------



## TreeTop

SycamoreFan317 said:


> I would take Valpo first and Loyola second. The Ramblers are on their way back to respectability, the other two do nothing for me at all.



Sounds about right.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Bluethunder said:


> Unless it is Valpo, skip the other three and stay at nine.  Don't just add someone for the sake of adding someone.  UMKC would be a joke and a huge dead carcass for the rest of the league to drag around.  Illinois Chicago and Loyola Chicago would be evervso slightly better, but would still absolutely suck.
> 
> *If this is the best Elgin and his staff can come up with despite hearing for months that Creighton was likely to leave, then he should be shown the door.*  Pathetic doesn't even come close to describing this list.



I have hinted at this for some time.  His formula for success seems to be less than acceptable.  Valpo is the only one on the list I would like, and honestly, I don't really love the Crusaders.  I understand wanting a private school since the Jays were a private school.  I just don't understand the stance on football among other things.  I'm either missing the obvious, dense or right.


----------



## ISUCC

remember the presidents are the one's who vote which school to admit. So we'll see what they decide.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

ISUCC said:


> remember the presidents are the one's who vote which school to admit. So we'll see what they decide.



This leads to the question of how sports knowledgeable are the presidents?  Are they independent thinkers or will they follow the recommendations of Elgin?  I would hope they value the opinion of the director of athletics at there schools, but that might not be automatic.  If there are many like one I can recall, the Valley may be in serious trouble.


----------



## Bally #50

Sycamore Proud said:


> This leads to the question of how sports knowledgeable are the presidents?  Are they independent thinkers or will they follow the recommendations of Elgin?  I would hope they value the opinion of the director of athletics at there schools, but that might not be automatic.  If there are many like one I can recall, the Valley may be in serious trouble.



I am so glad I have a lot of confidence in Dan Bradley and Ron Prettyman. My guess is that Dr. B. will be well-informed when it is time to vote.


----------



## Bluethunder

ISUCC said:


> remember the presidents are the one's who vote which school to admit. So we'll see what they decide.



Someone refresh my memory why its the presidents and not the ADs of each school voting?  Hopefuly it doesn't matter because each president is just asking his AD which way to go.


----------



## Bally #50

The thread title says "MVC down to four candidates." NOBODY has that list and various articles only have guesses so it is a little ambiguous to say the list of four at best. I have NOT seen one article linked on here that says what the MVC schools are thinking. If there is a definite statement on the schools being considered and VERIFIED, please help me out here. We are fricking GUESSING on this entire thread, right?

We quoted Elgin's statement that said he wanted a school that played football, and I think the majority of the schools being tossed around on SP, do not. SSOM, you're the man with the good inside info all the time, what are you thinking????


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Bally #46 said:


> The thread title says "MVC down to four candidates." NOBODY has that list and various articles only have guesses so it is a little ambiguous to say the list of four at best. I have NOT seen one article linked on here that says what the MVC schools are thinking. If there is a definite statement on the schools being considered and VERIFIED, please help me out here. We are fricking GUESSING on this entire thread, right?
> 
> We quoted Elgin's statement that said he wanted a school that played football, and I think the majority of the schools being tossed around on SP, do not. SSOM, you're the man with the good inside info all the time, what are you thinking????



According to agrinut's post earlier in this thread, Elgin said on the radio in Springfield that the MVC is *NOT* looking at any schools that sponsor football.


----------



## ISUCC

Bally #46 said:


> The thread title says "MVC down to four candidates." NOBODY has that list and various articles only have guesses so it is a little ambiguous to say the list of four at best. I have NOT seen one article linked on here that says what the MVC schools are thinking. If there is a definite statement on the schools being considered and VERIFIED, please help me out here. We are fricking GUESSING on this entire thread, right?
> 
> We quoted Elgin's statement that said he wanted a school that played football, and I think the majority of the schools being tossed around on SP, do not. SSOM, you're the man with the good inside info all the time, what are you thinking????



*UMKC, which announced last month it was leaving the Summit League for the Western Athletic Conference, is on a list of schools Missouri Valley Conference officials plan to visit this week for membership consideration, The Star has learned.

The others: Valparaiso, Loyola (Chicago) and University of Illinois-Chicago, all members of the Horizon League.*

that's a pretty definitive statement there, saying they are visiting these 4 schools


----------



## SycamoreFan317

http://www.kansascity.com/2013/03/31/4154451/umkc-to-get-missouri-valley-conference.html


----------



## BankShot

"Weak" isn't the word...talk about poor leadership. "Horribly disappointing" is how I'd describe Elgin's handling of the Jayz MVC vacancy.

If they're considering UMKC, ILCC, Loyola-Chi, etc...throw Ivy Tech, Gonado State, Testicle Tech & a few other powers in with 'em.:beatingdeadhorse:


----------



## Bally #50

IndyTreeFan said:


> According to agrinut's post earlier in this thread, Elgin said on the radio in Springfield that the MVC is *NOT* looking at any schools that sponsor football.



ITF, thanks for setting me straight. I think I got confused because some on here said THEY wanted football participation because it levels the playing field. (and that has to be true too)! We OFC kind of guys get confused easily.


----------



## Bally #50

SycamoreFan317 said:


> http://www.kansascity.com/2013/03/31/4154451/umkc-to-get-missouri-valley-conference.html


You guys are really coming thru. That sounds pretty solid to me. Now that I have said it, they ALL suck. Valpo would be the lesser of evils. Since Creighton was rumored to be leaving the MVC LONG before the Big East thing came up, I'd say he has pretty much fucked this up since the get-go. If you took a poll on here, Valpo would lead the vote but would not be a large vote any way you look at it.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

IndyTreeFan said:


> According to agrinut's post earlier in this thread, Elgin said on the radio in Springfield that the MVC is *NOT* looking at any schools that sponsor football.



I heard this to be true too--right now I can't come up with the source.


----------



## Daveinth

I agree if this was the so called back up plan the leadership of the MVC should resign .I mean come on this conversation has been on going for more than a few months . I would truely be more than disappointed if these are the final four


----------



## BrokerZ

Wow...UMKC basketball is best described as a dumpster fire.  And please don't give me any of that crap about "television markets." I've lived in Kansas City for going on 9 years and I've never seen one single UMKC basketball game televised locally, and I watch a lot of basketball.  The reason: no one cares about UMKC basketball in Kansas City. Nobody.  I can't stress that enough.  People act like UMKC sports don't even exist. I'd bet a lot of KC residents would be surprised to learn that UMKC even has a basketball team.

The only positive I see is that if they add UMKC I'd get to see one more ISU game live each year.


----------



## agrinut

Sycamore Proud said:


> I heard this to be true too--right now I can't come up with the source.



I have been meaning to rip that audio to sound cloud and post it. Ill try to remember tomorrow.


----------



## agrinut

If we take a team from the horizon do they aces leave?


----------



## Sycamore Proud

agrinut said:


> If we take a team from the horizon do they aces leave?



Can we make it a 2 for 1 trade?


----------



## agrinut

Sycamore Proud said:


> Can we make it a 2 for 1 trade?



I'm game.


----------



## Bluethunder

I would take Eville over anyone in the Horizon league.

Still for the life of me can't figure out how Murray State doesn't fit into this equation.  I am sure UMKC is a throw in for the western teams, but is it THAT important......?

Reminds me of the scene in Major League where Vaugn gets his glasses and he hates them.  Lou says that seeing is the most thing.  Willie Mays Hays says, I don't think its that important.

Having a team on the western side of the conference for geographical balance is something most teams want, so UMKC is tossed around....but I don't think its that important!


----------



## Bally #50

Bluethunder said:


> I would take Eville over anyone in the Horizon league.
> 
> Still for the life of me can't figure out how Murray State doesn't fit into this equation.  I am sure UMKC is a throw in for the western teams, but is it THAT important......?
> 
> Reminds me of the scene in Major League where Vaugn gets his glasses and he hates them.  Lou says that seeing is the most thing.  Willie Mays Hays says, I don't think its that important.
> 
> Having a team on the western side of the conference for geographical balance is something most teams want, so UMKC is tossed around....but I don't think its that important!



Frankly, there are LOT more schools in the west that would appeal to me more than Loyola or UI-Chicago for God's sake. Denver would be better than UMKC to begin with if they need to find someone in the west. Hopefully Evansville will stick it out in the MVC although I NEVER have had a warm spot for them since as a ISU cheerleader at Roberts Stadium, a fan came out of his seat and punched me in 1971. What an idiot. He was gone in like 30 seconds but it was a bit unsettling to say the least. Best part of that, we won easily.


----------



## agrinut

Give me ORU and Loyola, drop UE.


----------



## Bally #50

agrinut said:


> Give me ORU and Loyola, drop UE.


I had heard ORU was a front runner but we have seen them left out of the mix according to several releases. Loyola doesn't bother me as much as it bothers some of you as they do have a basketball PAST, just not lately. UE is kind of an ugly stepchild in the Valley but anything they do (if they drop out of the MVC) will be backwards, not forward, i.e Horizon or wherever Murray State is. Someone else said they liked MSU and I do a bit as well, but as I said NONE of these candidates are lighting our fires as predicted.


----------



## Fargobison

agrinut said:


> Personally what I would like to see is the MVFC dissolve. Have the valley pickup football as a sport (allow drake to play non-scholarship and convince WSU to pick it up) add a FCS football school and send the XDSU's back to Canada. It hurts all of the schools image to be involved with them. Perception is often reality in marketing and you cannot market the Dakota's. I don't care how many national championships NDSU wins, the deteriorate the league "prestige"



Yep having NDSU on your schedule just kills interest/marketing...I guess you might want to tell K-State's AD and Fox Sports that.....

“This is an exciting opportunity for K-State, especially as we showcase the grand opening of the new West Stadium Center,” Currie said. “There is significant TV interest in this matchup against North Dakota State, which owns wins against FBS football teams Minnesota, Colorado State and KU (Kansas) in each of the last three seasons.”

That game is slated to be the debut football telecast for Fox Sports 1...A sports network that will reach 90 million subscribers. I guess NDSU is really hurting the MVFC's image....I'd hate to think how bad things would get if we somehow upset K-State. 

Sorry to interrupt this thread but I couldn't let that go. I really hope the MVC doesn't end with up UMKC..that school was good at absolutely nothing in the Summit. They basically left the Summit because they couldn't compete anymore.


----------



## BankShot

I think Elgin is worried about the loss of Arch Madness $$$, given the role of Creighton in it's growth & success in St. Louis. Don't forget, KC has shown an interest in replacing St. Louis as host, and UMKC fits perfectly within the Elginist Theory. Don't forget the article yesterday from CBSSports.com which cited Elgin's role in Marshall's matriculation to Wichita State. Which raises the important question: Should the MVC continue to espouse the Horace Greely "head west" ethos, with the Shox being so far aligned "outside the grid?" Besides, what are the prospects of Wichita State leaving the MVC?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Daveinth said:


> I agree if this was the so called back up plan the leadership of the MVC should resign .I mean come on this conversation has been on going for more than a few months . I would truely be more than disappointed if these are the final four



Conference realignment began in 2010. Elgin has had 3 years to research and have names ready. He has failed the MVC.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Parsons said:


> They are in the Sunbelt and moved up in football to I A. It would be a step down in their world.



They're actually moving to Conference USA.


----------



## BrokerZ

Geography be damned.  Adding UMKC to the Missouri Valley would be the equivelant of the Big Ten adding Indiana State football in 2008.  UMKC is THAT bad.  Kareem Richardson is nuts for even considering that job.


----------



## BrokerZ

Jason Svoboda said:


> Conference realignment began in 2010. Elgin has had 3 years to research and have names ready. He has failed the MVC.



This x 1,000,000,000


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BankShot said:


> I think Elgin is worried about the loss of Arch Madness $$$, given the role of Creighton in it's growth & success in St. Louis. Don't forget, KC has shown an interest in replacing St. Louis as host, and UMKC fits perfectly within the Elginist Theory. Don't forget the article yesterday from CBSSports.com which cited Elgin's role in Marshall's matriculation to Wichita State. Which raises the important question: Should the MVC continue to espouse the Horace Greely "head west" ethos, with the Shox being so far aligned "outside the grid?" Besides, what are the prospects of Wichita State leaving the MVC?



Does he want to move it to Chicago? Otherwise I don't understand the four selections mentioned. Just for the sake of discussion, here were the 2012 attendance figures for all MVC teams and the four listed in the article:

Creighton 16 266,632 16,665
Wichita St. 16 166,261 10,391
Bradley 16 122,245 7,640
Missouri St. 15 105,750 7,050
Indiana St. 15 81,492 5,433
Evansville 18 92,431 5,135
Illinois St. 17 81,310 4,783
UNI 16 70,493 4,406
Drake 16 63,442 3,965
Southern Ill. 14 46,186 3,299

Valparaiso 17 57,508 3,383
Ill.-Chicago 14 41,077 2,934
Loyola Chicago 13 29,596 2,277
UMKC 14 18,317 1,308

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2012.pdf


----------



## Syc70

Jason Svoboda said:


> Does he want to move it to Chicago? Otherwise I don't understand the four selections mentioned. Just for the sake of discussion, here were the 2012 attendance figures for all MVC teams and the four listed in the article:
> 
> Creighton 16 266,632 16,665
> Wichita St. 16 166,261 10,391
> Bradley 16 122,245 7,640
> Missouri St. 15 105,750 7,050
> Indiana St. 15 81,492 5,433
> Evansville 18 92,431 5,135
> Illinois St. 17 81,310 4,783
> UNI 16 70,493 4,406
> Drake 16 63,442 3,965
> Southern Ill. 14 46,186 3,299
> 
> Valparaiso 17 57,508 3,383
> Ill.-Chicago 14 41,077 2,934
> Loyola Chicago 13 29,596 2,277
> UMKC 14 18,317 1,308
> 
> http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/m_basketball_RB/Reports/attend/2012.pdf



Is the issue here to get the best private school, the best Western school, the best basketball school, or the best overall fit.  The school that brings the most to the table, overall athletic programs, attendance, support, location, makes more sense than only looking at private schools to placate the "privates."  Valpo, any of the Dakota schools, Murray State, any of the OVC schools, merger of public MVC and OVC, makes more sense than Denver, UMKC, UIC, or Loyola.


----------



## ISUCC

someone posted this on mvcfans.com and I agree 100%, but I think the visit to UMKC is simply a "courtesy" visit to let them know what they'd need to do to ever be in consideration for admission to the MVC. And MAYBE if they make the necessary changes and improvements, then the next round of expansion they'd be considered a little more seriously. 

I am starting to think maybe what's best is to stay at 9 teams for this next year and see what shakes out in 2014. Sure, it'll be tough for men's BB scheduling, but it's only for one year. So let's stay at 9 for now.


----------



## BrokerZ

ISUCC said:


> I am starting to think maybe what's best is to stay at 9 teams for this next year and see what shakes out in 2014. Sure, it'll be tough for men's BB scheduling, but it's only for one year. So let's stay at 9 for now.



I understand the reasoning behind your point, but why do you think our options will be any better in a year?  The landscape is only going to change for the worse, in my opinion, if we continue to wait.  Teams are going to shift in the other conferences and continued rumors and pressure will exist with the current MVC teams to leave, so I don't think we have the luxury of standing firm at 9.  Playing with 9 teams could also put up signals to the current MVC schools that the MVC is unstable going forward and cause those schools to look elsewhere and leave.


----------



## Callmedoc

Sycamore Proud said:


> Can we make it a 2 for 1 trade?



We are going to need a future first and some cash to make the cap space work with our luxury tax problems.


----------



## Bally #50

.....and a player to be named later!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BrokerZ said:


> I understand the reasoning behind your point, but why do you think our options will be any better in a year? The landscape is only going to change for the worse, in my opinion, if we continue to wait. Teams are going to shift in the other conferences and continued rumors and pressure will exist with the current MVC teams to leave, so I don't think we have the luxury of standing firm at 9. Playing with 9 teams could also put up signals to the current MVC schools that the MVC is unstable going forward and cause those schools to look elsewhere and leave.



Agreed.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Syc70 said:


> Is the issue here to get the best private school, the best Western school, the best basketball school, or the best overall fit. The school that brings the most to the table, overall athletic programs, attendance, support, location, makes more sense than only looking at private schools to placate the "privates." Valpo, any of the Dakota schools, Murray State, any of the OVC schools, merger of public MVC and OVC, makes more sense than Denver, UMKC, UIC, or Loyola.



I'm with you. I don't think Elgin knows what he is doing quite frankly. It's obvious by the replacement selections he brought forth. If that really is the best we can do, then maybe it's in Indiana State's best interest to remain in the MVFC (if a unified conference really isn't important) and then work with several members of the Valley to create a new conference like ISU and SIU did in the past -- like a Big East lite of schools in the immediate area. How about the Big Midwest Conference?


----------



## OX 92

I agree,  It may be time to stop trying to patch the boat.  Time to consider buying a new one!


----------



## ISUCC

BrokerZ said:


> I understand the reasoning behind your point, but why do you think our options will be any better in a year?  The landscape is only going to change for the worse, in my opinion, if we continue to wait.  Teams are going to shift in the other conferences and continued rumors and pressure will exist with the current MVC teams to leave, so I don't think we have the luxury of standing firm at 9.  Playing with 9 teams could also put up signals to the current MVC schools that the MVC is unstable going forward and cause those schools to look elsewhere and leave.



I totally agree with that scenario too. Look what the Horizon did when Butler left....NOTHING, and now that conference is on the verge of being picked apart. The same thing may very well happen to the MVC if we sit at 9 for another year. The MVC presidents have a very tough decision to make. Does the MVC add one school (Valpo) or do we add all THREE Horizon schools now (Valpo, UI-C, Loyola-Illinois), or do we not add anyone. 

Let's say we add all 3 Horizon schools. The Horizon then adds Oakland, IPFW, and IUPUI. That all but eliminates the summit league. They'd be down to 6 schools (assuming Denver is still added in july). Then all the dakota schools go to the Big Sky, WIU heads to the OVC, UNO heads to the WAC with UMKC. easy peasy japaneesey


----------



## Bally #50

I was searching for ANY school that would appeal to me in this MVC search for new blood and the OVC has several schools that I am guessing many of you could live with. A move from the OVC to the MVC would be considered a step UP for Ohio Valley schools. Of course, we know these schools have football but I also think that should NOT be a requirement to not play football anyway. If that is what Elgin thinks, I think he is wrong. That is why finding a no-football school is so much harder. Anyone else see a few here that you would like? I am guessing there are several of you. And I am also sure some of you will say they are all dogs. That's SP. 



Full members
Institution 	Location
(Population) 	Founded 	Type 	Enrollment 	Endowment 	Joined 	Football

Member? 	Nickname 	Colors

Austin Peay State University 	Clarksville, Tennessee
(132,929) 	1927 	Public 	9,192 	$6.7 million 	1962 	Green tick 	Governors (men's)
Lady Govs (women's) 	Red & White

Belmont University 	Nashville, Tennessee
(619,626) 	1890 	Private/
Non-denominational 	6,647[4] 	$76 million 	2012 	Red X 	Bruins 	Navy & Red

Eastern Illinois University 	Charleston, Illinois
(21,039) 	1895 	Public 	11,651 	$63.3 million 	1996 	Green tick 	Panthers 	Blue & Gray

Eastern Kentucky University 	Richmond, Kentucky
(30,008) 	1906 	Public 	16,183 	$44.4 million 	1948 	Green tick 	Colonels (men's)
Lady Colonels (women's) 	Maroon & White

Jacksonville State University 	Jacksonville, Alabama
(12,548) 	1883 	Public 	9,504 	$9.9 million 	2003 	Green tick 	Gamecocks 	Red & White

Morehead State University 	Morehead, Kentucky
(5,914) 	1922 	Public 	9,509 	$22.5 million 	1948 	Red XNote 	Eagles 	Blue & Gold

Murray State University 	Murray, Kentucky
(17,741) 	1922 	Public 	10,832 	$32.8 million 	1948 	Green tick 	Racers 	Navy & Gold

Southeast Missouri State University 	Cape Girardeau, Missouri
(37,525) 	1873 	Public 	9,615 	$28 million 	1991 	Green tick 	Redhawks 	Red & Black

Southern Illinois University Edwardsville 	Edwardsville, Illinois
(24,047) 	1957 	Public 	14,055 	$16.4 million 	2008 	Red X 	Cougars 	Red & White

Tennessee State University 	Nashville, Tennessee
(619,626) 	1912 	Public 	10,450 	$28.8 million 	1986 	Green tick 	Tigers (men's)
Lady Tigers (women's) 	Blue & White

Tennessee Technological University 	Cookeville, Tennessee
(27,648) 	1912 	Public 	9,217 	$59.5 million 	1949 	Green tick 	Golden Eagles 	Purple & Gold

University of Tennessee at Martin 	Martin, Tennessee
(10,515) 	1927 	Public 	7,913[5] 	$27.2 million 	1992 	Green tick 	Skyhawks 	Navy, Orange & White


----------



## goyotes

ISUCC said:


> I totally agree with that scenario too. Look what the Horizon did when Butler left....NOTHING, and now that conference is on the verge of being picked apart. The same thing may very well happen to the MVC if we sit at 9 for another year. The MVC presidents have a very tough decision to make. Does the MVC add one school (Valpo) or do we add all THREE Horizon schools now (Valpo, UI-C, Loyola-Illinois), or do we not add anyone.
> 
> Let's say we add all 3 Horizon schools. The Horizon then adds Oakland, IPFW, and IUPUI. That all but eliminates the summit league. They'd be down to 6 schools (assuming Denver is still added in july). Then all the dakota schools go to the Big Sky, WIU heads to the OVC, UNO heads to the WAC with UMKC. easy peasy japaneesey



What happens to the MVFC in your proposal?  It would be down to 6 teams, assuming Youngstown doesn't head to the CAA.


----------



## Syc70

The Great Midwest Conference

Indiana State, Ball State, Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, Western Michigan, Illinois State, Eastern Illinois, Northern Illinois, Southern Illinois, and Western Illinois.  This is what should have transpired in the early 70's.  Wishful thinking, I know but we can dream can't we.  Eastern and Western Illinois would definately need to upgrade basketball and Northern probably feels they would be too good for this group in football.  Like-minded state universities with somewhat similar missions and enrollments.  It could happen if the BCS gets its way and the MAC is forced down.  Maybe Missouri State and Northern Iowa would want in?  Possibilities for Murray State, Eastern Kentucky, Miami of OH, Toledo,  Ohio University, Kent State, Akron, Youngstown State, Bowling Green State.  Are Miami and Toledo public or private? Could be a great conference.  What do you think?


----------



## Callmedoc

goyotes said:


> What happens to the MVFC in your proposal?  It would be down to 6 teams, assuming Youngstown doesn't head to the CAA.



Their basketball is terrible and football has been meh. What reason would they change for?


----------



## Bally #50

Syc70 said:


> The Great Midwest Conference
> 
> Indiana State, Ball State, Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, Western Michigan, Illinois State, Eastern Illinois, Northern Illinois, Southern Illinois, and Western Illinois.  This is what should have transpired in the early 70's.  Wishful thinking, I know but we can dream can't we.  Eastern and Western Illinois would definately need to upgrade basketball and Northern probably feels they would be too good for this group in football.  Like-minded state universities with somewhat similar missions and enrollments.  It could happen if the BCS gets its way and the MAC is forced down.  Maybe Missouri State and Northern Iowa would want in?  Possibilities for Murray State, Eastern Kentucky, Miami of OH, Toledo,  Ohio University, Kent State, Akron, Youngstown State, Bowling Green State.  Are Miami and Toledo public or private? Could be a great conference.  What do you think?



Those who actually read my "ramblings" since I have been on here, are well aware that SYC70, you pretty much EXACTLY named what I have been suggesting for 6 years. ALL SPORTS, ONE CONFERENCE, built-in rivalries, compact geography locations and it solves a huge problem for the Ball States and the Western and Eastern Michigan's of the world that need to get the hell out out of 1-A and play where they belong. Is it an unreal dream? Maybe but even the casual supporter of sports can see the value of these schools playing together. I would love to see MSU and UNI join us for the fun. It's a winner, trust me but it won't be easy getting it off the ground. But it does makes oh, so much sense.


----------



## Bluethunder

Bally #46 said:


> But it does makes oh, so much sense.



You just identified the main reason why it will never happen!


----------



## Bally #50

Bluethunder said:


> You just identified the main reason why it will never happen!


Nailed it, BThunder. I can't help but dream but common sense tells you it would work. We'd change things a round, shake it up and STILL be competitive in ALL sports.


----------



## ISUCC

just saw on twitter that James Madison will take WKU's place in the Sunbelt, so that opens another playoff spot for ISU.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Mvcfans just tweeted that MVC officials had been in contact with the chancellor's office at Milwaukee.  Not ideal, but certainly better than UMKC...


----------



## Syc70

I have agreed with you Bally for all of those 6 years, I just never put it in print.  I just threw out names that would make an excellent conference. but it would only work if everyone wants to be a part of the conference and not feel they have higher aspirations and would bolt at  the first flirtation from someone else.  The old Conference of Midwestern Universities from the 1970's had all the earmarks of greatness but not everyone was on the same page at that time.  It makes sense competitively, financially, geographically, and schools with a great deal in common if they would only face it.  None of the schools mentioned belong in FBS football but some cannot admit it.  We are what we are "a mid-major basketball school playing FCS football.  With this conference maybe we could even bring back wrestling, gymnastics, swimming, tennis, and really have a well-rounded college sports experience.  We are not the Big 10(14) and we do not want to be.  We don't have the resources to spend with those schools, but what the heck, they don't have the money either, the just spend like the do.  I would rather pay to go to all the home ISU games and pay less than the price of one ticket for Purdue or IU + their required donations in order to have the privilege to purchase tickets.


----------



## ISUCC

IndyTreeFan said:


> Mvcfans just tweeted that MVC officials had been in contact with the chancellor's office at Milwaukee.  Not ideal, but certainly better than UMKC...



saw that too, maybe the MVC is trying to decide which 3 Horizon league teams to poach?


----------



## Bluethunder

This may have been posted already, but I am hearing that these four schools are just getting preliminary site visits, not to read too much into it, AND Oral Roberts has already had their site visit.

Anyone confirm this?


----------



## agrinut

Bluethunder said:


> This may have been posted already, but I am hearing that these four schools are just getting preliminary site visits, not to read too much into it, AND Oral Roberts has already had their site visit.
> 
> Anyone confirm this?



I can confirm that MSU president Smart said in twitter he was leaving tonight to visit potential candidates.


----------



## tjbison

BrokerZ said:


> Geography be damned.  Adding UMKC to the Missouri Valley would be the equivelant of the Big Ten adding Indiana State football in 2008.  UMKC is THAT bad.  Kareem Richardson is nuts for even considering that job.



I like ISU too much to agree with this UMKC is actually a welcomed removal from the Summit

ISU would probably atleast put together a FB team to compete....


----------



## tjbison

No matter what happens someone will complain, but I'm going to throw a few more stats out there (granted it doesn't matter as we are just Internet message board junkies) but here are a few things NDSU has going

1. New Basketball facility that will break ground this summer
2. Great support has lacked due to poor competition though
3. In a city of 220,000 
4. Media network that covers ND, SD, MN, western MT southern Manitoba and Minneapolis
5. Support

I know it can be nitpicked but at least NDSU is more known than UMKC....that's just bad the MVC brass even are visiting them


----------



## Bally #50

tjbison said:


> No matter what happens someone will complain, but I'm going to throw a few more stats out there (granted it doesn't matter as we are just Internet message board junkies) but here are a few things NDSU has going
> 
> 1. New Basketball facility that will break ground this summer
> 2. Great support has lacked due to poor competition though
> 3. In a city of 220,000
> 4. Media network that covers ND, SD, MN, western MT southern Manitoba and Minneapolis
> 5. Support
> 
> I know it can be nitpicked but at least NDSU is more known than UMKC....that's just bad the MVC brass even are visiting them


Bison, for what it's worth, with the names being tossed out, I am not sure why so many are against NDSU in hoops. We know you have great fans, great facilities and with that likely comes a good administration. I have no idea why Aginut is adamant that we have nothing to do with the Dakota's but hey, University of Illinois-Chicago over you? Give me a break. I am proud that the MVCFC added the northern tier and can't see a whole lot of options for new basketball members that make sense and that I like better other than the few DREAMS we have to pull ALL the similar institutions together in IL, MI, IN, OH and create something special.

That said, you are a great spokesman for your alma mater.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Bally #46 said:


> Bison, for what it's worth, with the names being tossed out, I am not sure why so many are against NDSU in hoops. We know you have great fans, great facilities and with that likely comes a good administration. I have no idea why Aginut is adamant that we have nothing to do with the Dakota's but hey, University of Illinois-Chicago over you? Give me a break. I am proud that the MVCFC added the northern tier and can't see a whole lot of options for new basketball members that make sense and that I like better other than the few DREAMS we have to pull ALL the similar institutions together in IL, MI, IN, OH and create something special.
> 
> That said, you are a great spokesman for your alma mater.



To piggyback on what Bally just wrote, and I agree wholeheartedly, with the names being bandied about for MVC expansion, NDSU makes a hell of a lot more sense than any of the four "finalists."  I've been, and will continue to be, an advocate for the addition of NDSU into the Valley.  Great fan support, swimming in money, adequate (to say the least) facilities, major metropolitan area, NDSU is a sleeping giant.  I am not at all in favor of any of the other Dakota schools, as I think NDSU has a singular vision unique among the Dakota schools.

I would take NDSU every day of the week and twice on Sunday over UIC, LoC, Valpo, or, gulp, UMKC.


----------



## tjbison

IndyTreeFan said:


> To piggyback on what Bally just wrote, and I agree wholeheartedly, with the names being bandied about for MVC expansion, NDSU makes a hell of a lot more sense than any of the four "finalists."  I've been, and will continue to be, an advocate for the addition of NDSU into the Valley.  Great fan support, swimming in money, adequate (to say the least) facilities, major metropolitan area, NDSU is a sleeping giant.  I'm am not at all in favor of any of the other Dakota schools, as I think NDSU has a singular vision unique among the Dakota schools.
> 
> I would take NDSU every day of the week and twice on Sunday over UIC, LoC, Valpo, or, gulp, UMKC.



Trust me we know our Basketball Facility is crap, but that's about to change, but everyone also forgets The Fargodome converts to a 12k seat areana should we need it, we already play 1 game a year there.  We just built a huge new state of the art indoor track and field facility and the new Basketball arena is going to happen.


----------



## agrinut

I have been vocal about my desire to separate from the Dakota schools. I don't agree that they are better known then any of the others mentioned. I agree that NDSU has the support and facilities to be admitted. I can guarantee you that playing in the Fargo dome is not a good thing however. I just don't see them as a good move. If I had my druthers at this point I would prolly stay at 9. I might consider UW-Milwaukee but need to see more from them.


----------



## Bally #50

agrinut said:


> I have been vocal about my desire to separate from the Dakota schools. I don't agree that they are better known then any of the others mentioned. I agree that NDSU has the support and facilities to be admitted. I can guarantee you that playing in the Fargo dome is not a good thing however. I just don't see them as a good move. If I had my druthers at this point I would prolly stay at 9. I might consider UW-Milwaukee but need to see more from them.


I agree with you on most things so this little difference won't bother me. I for one, DO NOT want to stay at 9. WSU could follow soon, Evansville is "mumbling" and frankly, if we are staying together in this volatile time, WE BETTER DO SOMETHING. Elgin is increasingly to me-- looking like a weak, ineffective leader and seems ill-prepared. My last conversation with Ron P. was that they had a quick pick up in mind. My guess is that the consensus from many message boards like ours, was that the school(s), whoever it was, was going to go over like a Kadashian at a Golden Corral. 

I thought this whole expansion thing was going to be fun. Well it has turned into a nightmare, IMO. You snooze, you lose, seems to be so prophetic.


----------



## tjbison

agrinut said:


> I have been vocal about my desire to separate from the Dakota schools. I don't agree that they are better known then any of the others mentioned. I agree that NDSU has the support and facilities to be admitted. I can guarantee you that playing in the Fargo dome is not a good thing however. I just don't see them as a good move. If I had my druthers at this point I would prolly stay at 9. I might consider UW-Milwaukee but need to see more from them.




Lol, what's your deal?  Last I checked your beloved Bears were a sub 200 RPI team in basketball but hey your way superior than us as you have made clear

And please explain you "guarantee" on playing in the dome if need be??


----------



## Sycamore Proud

No place but in the world of college basketball would you find a respected supporter of a school in North Dakota and a respected supporter of a school in Missouri "debating" conference affiliation on the message board of a school in Indiana. :whack:  :slapfight:  :swordfight:


----------



## tjbison

Sycamore Proud said:


> No place but in the world of college basketball would you find a respected supporter of a school in North Dakota and a respected supporter of a school in Missouri "debating" conference affiliation on the message board of a school in Indiana. :whack:  :slapfight:  :swordfight:



True, sorry ill bow out and let agrinut take the reigns

Sorry guys didn't mean to start crap, see you all later wish you luck in the future in all sports hope we meet again many times in the future.


----------



## Bally #50

Sycamore Proud said:


> No place but in the world of college basketball would you find a respected supporter of a school in North Dakota and a respected supporter of a school in Missouri "debating" conference affiliation on the message board of a school in Indiana. :whack:  :slapfight:  :swordfight:


How true that is, my friend.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

tjbison said:


> True, sorry ill bow out and let agrinut take the reigns
> 
> Sorry guys didn't mean to start crap, see you all later wish you luck in the future in all sports hope we meet again many times in the future.



Don't leave tjbison!  I didn't have that in mind when I did that post.  It is great that both of you visit us and feel comfortable posting here.  Both of you are respected here, and I, for one, look forward to your input.  As some here will attest, this was just another of my feeble attempts at humor--it should not have been taken any other way.


----------



## agrinut

tjbison said:


> Lol, what's your deal?  Last I checked your beloved Bears were a sub 200 RPI team in basketball but hey your way superior than us as you have made clear
> 
> And please explain you "guarantee" on playing in the dome if need be??



I can pick and pull stats too if you want. Missouri State has rarely been a dormat in basketball, i do t expect them to be there next year. This isnt about who your team is today or tomorrow, it is about who you are as a whole. You can only win the games you play and my Bears did not do that last year. The Summit League is the 19 ranked conference, the Valley is 8th. If a new conference was forming, and planning to play on the FBS level NDSU would be a target no doubt, but the Valley is not that league. If NDSU is selected as a new member of the league ill welcome them and be at the first game in Fargo for my Bears.


----------



## ISUCC

Sycamore Proud said:


> No place but in the world of college basketball would you find a respected supporter of a school in North Dakota and a respected supporter of a school in Missouri "debating" conference affiliation on the message board of a school in Indiana. :whack:  :slapfight:  :swordfight:



It's SO true SP, that's one of the reasons I so despise these dakota people. Look at message boards around the nation. The SECOND someone posts a negative comment about their school they flock there to defend their school, then other dakota people join in, pretty soon the thread is nothing more than dakota people arguing against each other about their own school. It's pathetic. 

I am so glad ISU fans don't go to the dakota people boards and start complaining after their fans write negative things about ISU. They need to worry about their own schools and not worry about what fans from other schools write about their schools. Maybe someday they will grow thicker skin??


----------



## IndyTreeFan

ISUCC said:


> It's SO true SP, that's one of the reasons I so despise these dakota people. Look at message boards around the nation. The SECOND someone posts a negative comment about their school they flock there to defend their school, then other dakota people join in, pretty soon the thread is nothing more than dakota people arguing against each other about their own school. It's pathetic.
> 
> I am so glad ISU fans don't go to the dakota people boards and start complaining after their fans write negative things about ISU. They need to worry about their own schools and not worry about what fans from other schools write about their schools. Maybe someday they will grow thicker skin??



I certainly hope that this wasn't aimed at tjbison.  He's been posting here for several years, and has been nothing but respectful towards us.  Don't lump him in with Lakesbison, who is a complete tool.  We have our "Lakesbison" out there, too.  TJ has done nothing to warrant your disrespect.  He didn't initiate any conversation, he just adds his two cents.  I've done the same on places like Shockernet, and have never gotten the virulent response that the NDSU people always get, mostly due to Lakes...

TJ, I hope you stay around.  I enjoy your perspective.


----------



## TreeTop

IndyTreeFan said:


> I certainly hope that this wasn't aimed at tjbison.  He's been posting here for several years, and has been nothing but respectful towards us.  Don't lump him in with Lakesbison, who is a complete tool.  We have our "Lakesbison" out there, too.  TJ has done nothing to warrant your disrespect.  He didn't initiate any conversation, he just adds his two cents.  I've done the same on places like Shockernet, and have never gotten the virulent response that the NDSU people always get, mostly due to Lakes...
> 
> TJ, I hope you stay around.  I enjoy your perspective.



Heck yes.


----------



## BrokerZ

tjbison said:


> I like ISU too much to agree with this UMKC is actually a welcomed removal from the Summit
> 
> ISU would probably atleast put together a FB team to compete....



ISU didn't compete with anybody on the football field in 2008; thus my reference since UMKC doesn't compete with anybody on the basketball floor in the present.  But, I think we are both in agreement that UMKC is an awful choice.


----------



## agrinut

Rumor spreading around Springfield is that UIC has been invited to the MVC as the 10th member.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

agrinut said:


> Rumor spreading around Springfield is that UIC has been invited to the MVC as the 10th member.



That would suck.  Totally uninspiring.


----------



## Bally #50

agrinut said:


> Rumor spreading around Springfield is that UIC has been invited to the MVC as the 10th member.



I can only hope that I do not hurt myself jumping up and down. A great job to Commissioner Elgin for pulling something remarkable out of his fricking hat. I can't wait for the next stellar selection.


----------



## agrinut

Bally #46 said:


> I can only hope that I do not hurt myself jumping up and down. A great job to Commissioner Elgin for pulling something remarkable out of his fricking hat. I can't wait for the next stellar selection.



Looks like the finalist were UMKC, UIC, SDSU, UW-M, Valpo, and Loyola. I know that the presidents from different schools visited the finalist and sounds like the decision was made from there.


----------



## SycamoreBlue3209

Anything that has anything to do with Chicago sucks!! lol.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Here is where it's coming from:


Anonymous sources have confirmed to @PantherU that UIC to the MVC is all but official. MVC was impressed during on-campus visit this week.— Welp (@PantherU) April 4, 2013



Discussion over on the UIC board:

http://uicflames.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Article that is in the Green Bay Press Gazette

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com...-changes-coming-Horizon-League?nclick_check=1


----------



## Daveinth

With Arch madness up for renewal in a couple of years does  this make it easier to  move it to a place like Chicago? This gives Illinois 4 teams in The Valley.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Daveinth said:


> With Arch madness up for renewal in a couple of years does  this make out easier to  move it to a place like Chicago? This gives Illinois 4 teams in The Valley.



I've been hoping for a move for awhile. I just don't care for St. Louis. 

Personally, I'd love a rotating tournament. I think that could be awesome for the Valley.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Yuk.  Another drain on the league.  Maybe they thought they needed to replace _us _as a bottom dweller since we seem to have moved into the realm of a consistent winner?

Because all I can see with this is another school with whom to split the NCAA Units, who will most likely never contribute any.  Sort of like how we used to be...


----------



## BankShot

"UIC...UIC"...now there's a chant known round some parts of CHICAGO. How did ISU Pres. Bradley vote & what supported his position? Can someone explain the benefits of this to pre-existing MVC members? 

FIRE ELGIN...he's a idiot x 10

I think ISU needs to be PROACTIVELY looking for a new conference while the getting is good...this kinda shit doesn't cut it.

Trying to figure out what Elgin's cut is out of this UIC deal? He obviously recognized the immediate 5k/game fan loss of Creighton per every Jayz "Arch Madness" games, but does he think Chicago is gonna rally behind UIC, with possibly moving Arch Madness to the Windy City? Who in the hell wants to navigate CHICAGO?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Only thing I can think is he may be adding 2 more to get us to 12. Not sure UIC could be considered the best choice out of all of the finalists. That said, I don't think it could be considered the worst choice, either. One thing is for sure, I'd imagine more Chicago area recruits will now take us more seriously based on the fact that parents will be able to see "home away from home" games easily.


----------



## BankShot

At least w/ UMKC, we could've brokered an advertising deal w/ Coor's beer..:cheers:


----------



## IndyTreeFan

It's obvious that the MVC wanted into a major media market - oh, say, Chicago.  I realize that UIC is certainly a huge step up from UMKC.  I just question how much impact that they will have on getting us in the Chicago market.  Good night, if DePaul can't become competitive with all those recruits sitting literally in their back yard, what makes us think that UIC can do it?  Honestly, I hope I'm all wet on this and that UIC really blossoms into a major power in the MVC.  That would be a good thing.  I just am not convinced that _anyone _in Chicago has that ability.


----------



## Daveinth

BankShot said:


> At least w/ UMKC, we could've brokered an advertising deal w/ Coor's beer..:cheers:



Count me on that one


----------



## Daveinth

Jason Svoboda said:


> I've been hoping for a move for awhile. I just don't care for St. Louis.
> 
> Personally, I'd love a rotating tournament. I think that could be awesome for the Valley.



I like St Louis to me its a good fit fairly central location and not an arm pit of a city like Chicago . Honestly if they moved it up there I would never attend .


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Daveinth said:


> I like St Louis to me its a good fit fairly central location and not an arm pit of a city like Chicago . Honestly if they moved it up there I would never attend .



I feel it is completely the opposite with St. Louis being an armpit and Chicago being a wonderful city with TONs of things to do.


----------



## agrinut

Daveinth said:


> I like St Louis to me its a good fit fairly central location and not an arm pit of a city like Chicago . Honestly if they moved it up there I would never attend .



I am hoping with this the tourney will move to KC. Throw the schools to the west a bone we travel the most.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

agrinut said:


> I am hoping with this the tourney will move to KC. Throw the schools to the west a bone we travel the most.


That's why I like the rotating idea.

How about keep St. Louis and throw in both Kansas City and Chicago.


----------



## Daveinth

Jason Svoboda said:


> I feel it is completely the opposite with St. Louis being an armpit and Chicago being a wonderful city with TONs of things to do.



I have always hated evrything about Chicago I mean hell there is a reason the Cubs cant win and I think its because Chicago sucks so their sports teams are horrible as well LOL


----------



## TreeTop

I also think Chicago is an awesome city.

UIC....hmmmmm....I'll have to give this one some time before I decide it's a decent move or a bad choice.


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> That's why I like the rotating idea.
> 
> How about keep St. Louis and throw in both Kansas City and Chicago.



I don't think Chicago will ever fly. That would mean WSU fans would drop off. They are now the only team that attends. Furthermore didn't Elgin say they would never put it in a city where they have a team.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

From Wikipedia:    
The University of Illinois at Chicago, or UIC, is a state-funded public research university located in Chicago, Illinois, United States. Its campus is in the Near West Side community area, adjacent to the Chicago Loop. The second campus established under the University of Illinois system, UIC is also the largest university in the Chicago area, having approximately 28,000 students[4] enrolled in 15 colleges.

UIC operates the largest medical school in the United States, and serves as the principal educator for Illinois’ physicians, dentists, pharmacists, nurses and other healthcare professionals.[5] UIC's medical school has research expenditures exceeding $412 million and consistently ranks in the top 50 U.S. institutions for research expenditures.[6][7]

In the 2013 U.S. News & World Report's ranking of colleges and universities, UIC ranked as the 147th best national university.[8]

UIC competes in NCAA Division I Horizon League as the UIC Flames in sports. The UIC Pavilion is home to all UIC basketball games. It also serves as a venue for concerts.


What happened to the private school criteria?


----------



## Bluethunder

As a person who always does his best to look at things from the bright side,.....here are a couple of thoughts.....

1) We don't know how accurate this is.  It may be completely wrong.

2) This may be one of a couple Horizon schools being added, as losing UIC would really hurt that conference and drop it to 8.

3) While they aren't my first choice, they aren't the worst.  It could be UMKC!

4) Putting UIC into a better conference could give them a huge shot in the arm.  They have wealthy alums from the medical school, they have a lot of talented kids around them to recruit from.  Don't know about their facilities for sports.

5) it is geographically a good fit for us, as it will be a cheap trip to play them.

6) Could help us tap into the Chicago recruiting scene by putting our name out there when/if we travel to play them.

Just some thoughts that hopefully give everyone something to think about, and maybe take the edge off for those unhappy with the selection.


----------



## Gotta Hav

IndyTreeFan said:


> That would suck.  Totally uninspiring.



+1,000,000


----------



## Gotta Hav

Jason Svoboda said:


> Here is where it's coming from:
> 
> 
> Anonymous sources have confirmed to @PantherU that UIC to the MVC is all but official. MVC was impressed during on-campus visit this week.— Welp (@PantherU) April 4, 2013
> 
> 
> 
> Discussion over on the UIC board:
> 
> http://uicflames.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general

Well, if there is something positive about this, the UIC fans are definitely excited about joining the MVC!!!   Go read their board.  They're fired up about being in the MVC!   Who knows, maybe in the long run...this will all work out....on another subject but related, Indianapolis is missing an opportunity to steal the MVC Tournament from St. Louis.....


----------



## 4Q_iu

agrinut said:


> I am hoping with this the tourney will move to KC. Throw the schools to the west a bone we travel the most.



Mapquest lists two routes from Springfield, MO to Kansas City...

166 miles - 210 miles

Mapquest list one route from Springfield, MO to St Louis...

217 miles

you're whining about 7 - 51 miles?

Give me a  break

If UMKC isn't in the Valley; why go to KC?

Keep it in St Louis.

I hope all of the UIC chatter is just that chatter.

UIC brings NOTHING to the Valley


----------



## 4Q_iu

Gotta Hav said:


> Well, if there is something positive about this, the UIC fans are definitely excited about joining the MVC!!!   Go read their board.  They're fired up about being in the MVC!   Who knows, maybe in the long run...this will all work out....on another subject but related, Indianapolis is missing an opportunity to steal the MVC Tournament from St. Louis.....



Does Indy WANT the Valley tournament??

They get the Big Ten (14) Men's Tourney every other year AND the Big Ten (14) Women's Tourney virtually every year...


----------



## agrinut

4Q_iu said:


> Mapquest lists two routes from Springfield, MO to Kansas City...
> 
> 166 miles - 210 miles
> 
> Mapquest list one route from Springfield, MO to St Louis...
> 
> 217 miles
> 
> you're whining about 7 - 51 miles?
> 
> Give me a  break
> 
> If UMKC isn't in the Valley; why go to KC?
> 
> Keep it in St Louis.
> 
> I hope all of the UIC chatter is just that chatter.
> 
> UIC brings NOTHING to the Valley



It is more about facilities and location. If you haven't been to the sprint center or Power and Light you won't understand. I don't mind STL but KC would be a much better host.


----------



## agrinut

4Q_iu said:


> Does Indy WANT the Valley tournament??
> 
> They get the Big Ten (14) Men's Tourney every other year AND the Big Ten (14) Women's Tourney virtually every year...



Again I think moving the tourney east would be a huge mistake.


----------



## Gotta Hav

Jason Svoboda said:


> I feel it is completely the opposite with St. Louis being an armpit and Chicago being a wonderful city with TONs of things to do.



Tons of things to do, yes, but it's not Indy for your average MVC fan.  If we're going to talk about moving the tournament, the place to be is Indianapolis.  

It's safe, you can be out after hours between bars and it's safe, you can walk from your Hotel to just about any restaurant or bar downtown, you can walk from your Hotel to the Fieldhouse, or Lucas Oil....and you can walk back to your Hotel from anywhere at anytime....safely.

Where are you walking to in Chicago?   You certainly aren't walking to the game, or anywhere else....plus a lot of places roll up at night...because people don't want to be out cuz why....it ain't safe.


----------



## Gotta Hav

4Q_iu said:


> Does Indy WANT the Valley tournament??
> 
> They get the Big Ten (14) Men's Tourney every other year AND the Big Ten (14) Women's Tourney virtually every year...



I don't know if Indy does, or does not....I've never heard that except from me and some others on here.

The easy schedule fit for Indy is.....the MVC tournament, is always the week before the Men's Big 10 (14) tournament.


----------



## BankShot

Big Ten schools would probably lobby AGAINST the idea, taking all efforts to avoid an easy COMPARISON between the quality of hoop played in the MVC & Big Ten. For this same reason, the MVC needs to PURSUE the possibility. The peripheral "market" would exceed Chicago by leaps & bounds...


----------



## Jason Svoboda

According to SIU chancellor, no decision has been made:


SIU Chancellor Rita Cheng, the ranking voting member for SIU for adding new schools, said no decision has been made to add new school.— Todd Hefferman (@THefferman) April 4, 2013


----------



## Jason Svoboda

MSU President:


Site visits to prospective valley schools went well. Despite reports on twitter, no decision made on new member. Still couple weeks off.— Clif Smart (@ClifSmart) April 4, 2013


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> MSU President:
> 
> 
> Site visits to prospective valley schools went well. Despite reports on twitter, no decision made on new member. Still couple weeks off.— Clif Smart (@ClifSmart) April 4, 2013

He put that to rest lol


----------



## ISUCC

I still think the MVC is going to add all 3 Horizon League schools.


----------



## Bally #50

ISUCC said:


> I still think the MVC is going to add all 3 Horizon League schools.


I do too. Makes a ton of sense to me. As I love to say, stay tuned~


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Why don't they just add some Chicago Public League schools?  Won't have to wait as long for them to become competitive in the MVC...:no:


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Why don't they just add some Chicago Public League schools?  Won't have to wait as long for them to become competitive in the MVC...:no:



LOL... c'mon now. 

There just aren't any teams out there better. Nobody is leaving the A-10 to come here... it's a parallel move in most people's eyes. That leaves us with options from the Horizon and Summit. They all have their pros and cons.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> LOL... c'mon now.
> 
> There just aren't any teams out there better. Nobody is leaving the A-10 to come here... it's a parallel move in most people's eyes. That leaves us with options from the Horizon and Summit. They all have their pros and cons.



That _was_ tongue-in-cheek.  However, I do think that a school like Belmont, or even Oral Bob is better prepared for life in the MVC...


----------



## Bluethunder

Jason Svoboda said:


> There just aren't any teams out there better. That leaves us with options from the Horizon and Summit. They all have their pros and cons.



+1


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> That _was_ tongue-in-cheek.  However, I do think that a school like Belmont, or even Oral Bob is better prepared for life in the MVC...



Maybe. We honestly don't know. Further, I don't give a shit about any school coming in. Whoever they bring in, I want 2 wins a year from. I want Indiana State heading the the tournament more.


----------



## ISUCC

Jason Svoboda said:


> Maybe. We honestly don't know. Further, I don't give a shit about any school coming in. Whoever they bring in, I want 2 wins a year from. I want Indiana State heading the the tournament more.



I don't even think we'd get 2 wins a year from UMKC the way we've played the last couple years


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> Maybe. We honestly don't know. Further, I don't give a shit about any school coming in. Whoever they bring in, I want 2 wins a year from. I want Indiana State heading the the tournament more.



I know, you'd be happy with UMKC, or whoever is 342nd in the RPI...:razz:...j/k...


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> I know, you'd be happy with UMKC, or whoever is 342nd in the RPI...:razz:...j/k...



No, I won't travel to Kansas City... but I would go to Chicago or Valpo.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

After reading the UIC board, I feel a little better about adding the Flames to the Valley--we could do worse, much worse.


----------



## Bluethunder

Here is one thing I would like everyone in the MVC (including us) to keep in mind.  Don't assume that each team that gets thrown out there actually wants to be a part of the MVC.  Many names have been thrown out and in some cases, we have looked at it like "why would Elgin want that team over this team?", but we don't know who he will ask and who might say no.  It is not like he will come out later and say "well we added team z because team x and y told us no."  

No matter who is added, it is most likely going to be the team that actually will say yes.  No one wants to ask a team and have them publicly reject the offer, that would look horible.  If it ends up being UIC or Loyola or UWM or Valpo, before everybody starts saying why not this team instead of the one we got, it might be a case that the team you wanted was approached and said no.


----------



## SycfromBirth

I think that adding schools in Chicago market would be a win for potential TV deals that the MVC would work out.  We lost a strong fan base Omaha.  They are at least trying to improve their alleged media draw by bringing in a team from Chicago.

Hell, it may improve overall recruiting for the MVC in the Chicago area.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> I still think the MVC is going to add all 3 Horizon League schools.



UIC, Loyola and Valpo, correct?

If they're taking UIC, I think they do, too. First, you'll have (I assume) intact rivalries that will stay intact. Second, when negotiating media deals, you'll have 3 Chicago metro institutions to sell instead of one. Chicago is the third largest media market in the country behind New York and Los Angeles. Lastly, the schools are pretty close to a majority of the members in the conference save for Wichita State and Missouri State.






MVC member schools distance to Chicago, Illinois, sorted by distance:

Illinois State - 132 miles
Bradley - 169 miles
Indiana State - 181 miles
Northern Iowa - 277 miles
Evansville - 291 miles
Southern Illinois - 332 miles
Drake - 335 miles
Missouri State - 511 miles
Wichita State - 707 miles

Was a little shocked to see that both Iowa schools were the same or closer to Chicago than Southern Illinois.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Bluethunder said:


> Here is one thing I would like everyone in the MVC (including us) to keep in mind.  *Don't assume that each team that gets thrown out there actually wants to be a part of the MVC. * Many names have been thrown out and in some cases, we have looked at it like "why would Elgin want that team over this team?", but we don't know who he will ask and who might say no.  It is not like he will come out later and say "well we added team z because team x and y told us no."
> 
> No matter who is added, it is most likely going to be the team that actually will say yes.  No one wants to ask a team and have them publicly reject the offer, that would look horible.  If it ends up being UIC or Loyola or UWM or Valpo, before everybody starts saying why not this team instead of the one we got, it might be a case that the team you wanted was approached and said no.



Can't disagree with this, however Elgin should have a separate and unique sales presentation prepared for each school under serious consideration.  If a rep of a visited school should inquire about what The Valley can do for their school he should have an accurate and concise reply for each of them.  Marketing The Valley in this respect should be an important part of his job description.


----------



## ISUCC

Jason Svoboda said:


> UIC, Loyola and Valpo, correct?
> 
> If they're taking UIC, I think they do, too. First, you'll have (I assume) intact rivalries that will stay intact. Second, when negotiating media deals, you'll have 3 Chicago metro institutions to sell instead of one. Chicago is the third largest media market in the country behind New York and Los Angeles. Lastly, the schools are pretty close to a majority of the members in the conference save for Wichita State and Missouri State.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MVC member schools distance to Chicago, Illinois, sorted by distance:
> 
> Illinois State - 132 miles
> Bradley - 169 miles
> Indiana State - 181 miles
> Northern Iowa - 277 miles
> Evansville - 291 miles
> Southern Illinois - 332 miles
> Drake - 335 miles
> Missouri State - 511 miles
> Wichita State - 707 miles
> 
> Was a little shocked to see that both Iowa schools were the same or closer to Chicago than Southern Illinois.



WSU will always be the "outlier" in the MVC, but they do have the most $$ amongst conference schools. If they had football they'd have already left the MVC IMO. Without FB they are on an island in the middle of the country with nowhere to go. As much as they want to join the MWC or A-10 I just can't imagine that's going to happen.


----------



## ISUCC

Jason Svoboda said:


> UIC, Loyola and Valpo, correct?
> 
> If they're taking UIC, I think they do, too. First, you'll have (I assume) intact rivalries that will stay intact. Second, when negotiating media deals, you'll have 3 Chicago metro institutions to sell instead of one. Chicago is the third largest media market in the country behind New York and Los Angeles. Lastly, the schools are pretty close to a majority of the members in the conference save for Wichita State and Missouri State.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MVC member schools distance to Chicago, Illinois, sorted by distance:
> 
> Illinois State - 132 miles
> Bradley - 169 miles
> Indiana State - 181 miles
> Northern Iowa - 277 miles
> Evansville - 291 miles
> Southern Illinois - 332 miles
> Drake - 335 miles
> Missouri State - 511 miles
> Wichita State - 707 miles
> 
> Was a little shocked to see that both Iowa schools were the same or closer to Chicago than Southern Illinois.



looking at that map, if all 3 Horizon schools are added that makes for a pretty close circle of schools too.


----------



## Bluethunder

ISUCC said:


> WSU will always be the "outlier" in the MVC, but they do have the most $$ amongst conference schools. If they had football they'd have already left the MVC IMO. Without FB they are on an island in the middle of the country with nowhere to go. As much as they want to join the MWC or A-10 I just can't imagine that's going to happen.



Even if they did join a new conference, it still would not solve their problem.  They are in geographic pergatory.  They could go west, but they would still be a long distance away from the other conference members.  

I know there are many Shocker fans who now feel they are too big time for the Valley, but they still won't have a lot of options because of their location.


----------



## Bluethunder

If this article has already been posted I apologize......

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/...-leave-Summit-League--join-Detroit-in-Horizon

I know it is based on an article already posted, but found it interesting because it is more from the Horizon league perspective.  Oakland denies agreeing to join, but not having interest to do so at some point.

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/sports/college/oakland-comments-on-horizon-league


----------



## Bally #50

Maybe Elgin called THEM and slowed down the process? Why not, we're not looking for quality, hell.....we might as well take IUPUI.


----------



## Bluethunder

Bally #46 said:


> ?...we might as well take IUPUI.



Lets not go THAT far!


----------



## Bally #50

Bluethunder said:


> Lets not go THAT far!


BT, sorry about that. I am suffering from a sudden case of SARCASM over this crap. What about Indiana Wesleyan?. I hear we might have a connection with the new basketball coach there.


----------



## bent20

Is anyone in the MVC (outside Wichita State) really that much better than some of the schools being discussed here? We'd struggle to beat all three on the road.

I think what many fail to realize is that in order to get one of the schools you think the MVC is worthy of, those schools would have to take a step down, or a lateral step to join the MVC.

Some things to consider. This year:
UIC beat Colorado State, Iona and Northwestern this year. Not bad.
Loyola beat Mississippi St. and DePaul
Valpo lost by two at Nebraska, beat Missouri State in Springfield (we didn't do that), played respectably against Mich. St in the NCAA Tournament.

Looks similar to what middle of the pack MVC teams accomplish. I'm sure these teams could come into the MVC and compete well from the start.

Some people on this board have too high of an opinion about the MVC and what our supposed place is in the NCAA college basketball pecking order. Adding these teams really wouldn't hurt the MVC as much as you think.


----------



## Bally #50

bent20 said:


> Is anyone in the MVC (outside Wichita State) really that much better than some of the schools being discussed here? We'd struggle to beat all three on the road.
> 
> I think what many fail to realize is that in order to get one of the schools you think the MVC is worthy of, those schools would have to take a step down, or a lateral step to join the MVC.
> 
> Some things to consider. This year:
> UIC beat Colorado State, Iona and Northwestern this year. Not bad.
> Loyola beat Mississippi St. and DePaul
> Valpo lost by two at Nebraska, beat Missouri State in Springfield (we didn't do that), played respectably against Mich. St in the NCAA Tournament.
> 
> Looks similar to what middle of the pack MVC teams accomplish. I'm sure these teams could come into the MVC and compete well from the start.
> 
> Some people on this board have too high of an opinion about the MVC and what our supposed place is in the NCAA college basketball pecking order. Adding these teams really wouldn't hurt the MVC as much as you think.


Sarcasm aside, I am glad you brought this up, Bent. First of all, I had no idea that they (UIC) had played that well against some excellent teams. I am not positive but I am thinking we lost to them the last time we played too. I don't make that much fun of Loyola because they have a pretty serious history of hoop success and we know Valpo has as well, just not lately. My goal is to leave the MVC so I don't think my opinion is too high of the Valley. That said,I am truly excited about WSU's success and will be rooting for them to beat the Cuse, although my sister (a Syracuse alum) might be pissed at me. Thanks for the info.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Not sure I buy that, bent. I think Valpo could probably step in and be the most MVC ready but they were pretty upperclassman based if I recall from watching. Here are the last 5 year records for all of them. 

Loyola Ramblers

2012 - 15-16
2011 - 7-23
2010 - 16-15
2009 - 14-16
2008 - 14-18

UIC Flames

2012 - 18-16
2011 - 8-22
2010 - 7-24
2009 - 8-22
2008 - 16-15

Valpo Crusaders

2012 - 26-8
2011 - 22-12
2010 - 23-12
2009 - 15-17
2008 - 9-22


----------



## Bally #50

It seems UIC has the same problems we had. WIN the big ones and throw away the games against the lesser teams. Almost the same record as well.


----------



## Bluethunder

The real question for Valpo is what happens if a bigger school come callng for Bryce Drew?  There are no more Drews to turn to.  Many in the Horizon think of Valpo as being on borrowed time, just waiting for Bryce Drew to leave for a bigger program and then Valpo will come crashing back to a middle of the pack team.

They may have a point.


----------



## BankShot

Bluethunder said:


> The real question for Valpo is what happens if a bigger school come callng for Bryce Drew?  There are no more Drews to turn to.  Many in the Horizon think of Valpo as being on borrowed time, just waiting for Bryce Drew to leave for a bigger program and then Valpo will come crashing back to a middle of the pack team.
> 
> They may have a point.



Ya, WWT that any coach could've filled *Gene Bartow's *shoes when he departed? But it happens...if the PROGRAM is sound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Bartow


----------



## bent20

What it comes down to for me is would these teams drag the quality of the MVC down slightly, or would joining the MVC improve them slightly? I think it would improve their programs, at least a little bit. If they all turn out to be bottom dwellers, who can at least win those non-conference games I listed from this year, then they wouldn't hurt us. We need to worry about our own program and continuing to win.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Do you think the Sycamores would win all 9 games if we played UIC, Loyola and Valpo once a year for 3 years?  I would be shocked if we did.  Until we play consistent enough to avoid bad loses like we had this year, we have little business looking down our noses at anyone.  Someone on the UIC board called Valley fans arrogant--I can understand why.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Sycamore Proud said:


> Do you think the Sycamores would win all 9 games if we played UIC, Loyola and Valpo once a year for 3 years?  I would be shocked if we did.  Until we play consistent enough to avoid bad loses like we had this year, we have little business looking down our noses at anyone.  Someone on the UIC board called Valley fans arrogant--I can understand why.



But the difference is that _we are already in the Valley_.  There is nothing wrong with wanting to add the strongest teams possible - it is simply better for the league as a whole, regardless of what _we _do.  Better teams mean better RPI's (or BPI's, or RPM's, or MPH's, or whatever), which makes it a little easier to get an at large bid when we have a good year.  If you don't think it makes a difference, look at Murray State this year.  Pretty darned good year, lose in OT in the conference tournament final, sitting on the outside looking in - playing the weak schedule in the OVC hurt them, badly.  Wichita had a pretty darned good year, stumbled at the end, lost a close conference tournament final, but got in anyway.  Playing CU twice, and us twice HELPED them get in, because we were viewed as good teams.  Playing another 200+ RPI team in league twice (in place of CU), would probably sentence them to sitting on the outside with Murray State.

It is short sighted, and the sign of an inferiority complex, to say that since _we _usually suck, we want to add sucky teams.  Particularly if we're in year 4 of crawling out of our Decade of Suck.  Stronger is better.  Stronger _helps _us with that crawl back.  Stronger gives us more credibility as we become a perennial top 5 team in the MVC.  None of us should have to apologize for wanting strong teams in the conference.  A rising tide lifts all boats.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Sycamore Proud said:


> Do you think the Sycamores would win all 9 games if we played UIC, Loyola and Valpo once a year for 3 years?  I would be shocked if we did.  Until we play consistent enough to avoid bad loses like we had this year, we have little business looking down our noses at anyone.  Someone on the UIC board called Valley fans arrogant--I can understand why.



For the first couple years, quite possibly. Now, shit happens but I'd expect all three teams to require time adjusting to the Valley grind. I've linked what I think is the best snapshot when looking at programs below. The Horizon had the 12th best conference RPI (MVC was #9) and had the 13th best conference SOS, MVC was again 9th. 

Illinois-Chicago - http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi/_/sort/RPI/teamId/82
Loyola - http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi/_/sort/RPI/teamId/2350
Valpo - http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi/_/sort/RPI/teamId/2674

Again, I wouldn't mind having all three of these schools in, but if UIC fans think they're just going to jump into the Valley and compete for the league title, they're being awfully naive unless they have some recruits under their belt that I don't know about.


----------



## BankShot

bent20 said:


> What it comes down to for me is would these teams drag the quality of the MVC down slightly, or would joining the MVC improve them slightly? I think it would improve their programs, at least a little bit. If they all turn out to be bottom dwellers, who can at least win those non-conference games I listed from this year, then they wouldn't hurt us. We need to worry about our own program and continuing to win.



I don't see UIC EVER improving the MVC Conference. For many urban HS athletes, college basketball is their ticket OUT of the ghetto, and I just can't envision Div I athletes from Chicago willing to throw it all away just to be near the Chicago River surf. Furthermore, I can't see Div I quality recruits OUTSIDE of Chicago jumping at the opportunity to play for UIC.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BankShot said:


> I don't see UIC EVER improving the MVC Conference. For many urban HS athletes, college basketball is their ticket OUT of the ghetto, and I just can't envision Div I athletes from Chicago willing to throw it all away just to be near the Chicago River surf. Furthermore, I can't see Div I quality recruits OUTSIDE of Chicago jumping at the opportunity to play for UIC.



All depends on the coach. Kids these days follow the coach, not the school.


----------



## BankShot

Ya, right.:lol:

Maybe if your dad's the coach...

The idea is more accurate among the "high profiled" coaching ranks only. If Lansing left ISU TODAY, how many current players would transfer and recruits would reselect?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BankShot said:


> Ya, right...:lol:



You think more prospects choose a school because of the school over the coach? They don't.


----------



## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> You think more prospects choose a school because of the school over the coach? They don't.



I'm with you on this Jason. Recruiting is about relationships, hard to develop a relationship with a school (that comes later). I'm of the opinion that if a coach leaves a school all recruits signed under him should have a full release if desired.


----------



## Bluethunder

I bet you we would lose at least one recruit and would have to start all over with the guys we are trying to cultivate relationships with right now in the '14 and '15 classes.  It's not who you lose that is currently on the team that can hurt, it is starting from scratch with the high school kids that you already had a bit of a hook into.  That is what can set a program back.


----------



## BankShot

You don't think a qualified incoming coach has established similar prior relationships w/ prospects? I could understand a Div II or III coach having different recruiting criteria, however if he's shown any degree of honorable coaching success, existing Div I recruits w/ sound basketball principles will respect his past record of accomplishments, all other things being equal (i.e. offense & defense philosophy). I think some of you have _AAU-itis  _on this issue.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BankShot said:


> You don't think a qualified incoming coach has established similar prior relationships w/ prospects? I could understand a Div II or III coach having different recruiting criteria, however if he's shown any degree of honorable coaching success, existing Div I recruits w/ sound basketball principles will respect his past record of accomplishments, all other things being equal (i.e. offense & defense philosophy). I think some of you have _AAU-itis  _on this issue.



With prospects? Sure. With the schools current committed or recruited prospects? Unlikely unless the coach comes form the same conference and region and was recruiting the same group of players. I read probably 20-30 recruiting articles a day and read direct quotes from these kids. It's about the relationship built with the coach, often the assistant coaches that brings them to the school. I'm not saying it's right, but that is the current dynamic in place.

Call it _AAU-itis_ all you want. I call it _today's recruiting dynamic_. My recommendation would be to grab a 7-day trial at any of the recruiting service websites (Rivals or 247 would be my recommendations) and then read recruiting updates -- you'll quickly see what I mean.


----------



## Bluethunder

BankShot said:


> You don't think a qualified incoming coach has established similar prior relationships w/ prospects? I could understand a Div II or III coach having different recruiting criteria, however if he's shown any degree of honorable coaching success, existing Div I recruits w/ sound basketball principles will respect his past record of accomplishments, all other things being equal (i.e. offense & defense philosophy). I think some of you have _AAU-itis  _on this issue.



I don't think you appreciate the amount of time and effort coaches at a school like Indiana State put into building relationships with recruits.  We aren't like IU or Michigan State where we can just walk into the room and grab everyones attention.  We have to work hard to make that student feel more comfortable at our school than the 20 or 30 other schools recruiting that same player.

You bring in a new coach and now you go the back of the line with many of the kds you were creating a relationship with.  Why do you think Lansing got the job in the first place?  A lot of it was because the players and recruits knew him, felt comfortable with him and the program wouldn't have to go back to square one. 

Have you mever noticed the number of kids who follow the coach when he leaves for another school?  Have you never noticed the number of kids who re-open their recruiting after a coach leaves or is fired?  Why would tht happen if recruiting wasn't primarily about the coaching staff?

Just one example for you.....

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci...o-late-big-three-recruiting-begins?source=pkg

Pay special attention to the second paragraph, it backs up what Jason is saying.


----------



## BankShot

Jason Svoboda said:


> With prospects? Sure. With the schools current committed or recruited prospects? Unlikely unless the coach comes form the same conference and region and was recruiting the same group of players. I read probably 20-30 recruiting articles a day and read direct quotes from these kids. *It's about the relationship built with the coach, often the assistant coaches that brings them to the school*. I'm not saying it's right, but that is the current dynamic in place.
> 
> Call it _AAU-itis_ all you want. I call it _today's recruiting dynamic_. My recommendation would be to grab a 7-day trial at any of the recruiting service websites (Rivals or 247 would be my recommendations) and then read recruiting updates -- you'll quickly see what I mean.



These must be really deep(?) "relationships," given the TIME and GEOGRAPHY factors that are generally present in HS recruiting. I'm not sure it's as much a "relationship" as it is "closing the deal" (i.e. home or auto sale). Usually there are a variety of factors in such decisionmaking, not just the "likeability" of the salesman/coach. *Curious, how does a HS recruit define a "relationship?"*

What recruits were signed the year K-Mac left for Oregon...Kitch, McWhorter & JCer Walker? What other options were on the table for them? Frankly, I never bought into this "late season recruiting fear" as a viable reason for the Lansing hire by RP.


----------



## 4Q_iu

Jason Svoboda said:


> You think more prospects choose a school because of the school over the coach? They don't.



You're absolutely correct; hell, this is more the NORM than the exception over the years.

Look at ALL of the "great" traditional powers....  EVERYONE had a 'dynamic' coach that players wanted to play for...

Ever been to Durham, NC?  It's a  dump!    if krzyzewski had taken the job at Campbell Univ in 1980 and built the Camels into a power; kids would be flocking to play for him in Buies Creek and not Durham


----------



## ISUCC

sounds like a late April vote will be forthcoming

http://www.foxsportskansascity.com/...xpansion-decision-?blockID=888999&feedID=5089

nothing new really, other than the MVC may look at KC as a potential tourney host site when the contract with St. Louis ends in 2015


----------



## bent20

I just find it interesting that some here believe adding UIC or UMKC will hurt us but adding St. Louis or Ball State (still don't get the BSU obsession some have) would make us better. Really? I really don't see any of those moves making a difference at all - good or bad.


----------



## 4Q_iu

bent20 said:


> I just find it interesting that some here believe adding UIC or UMKC will hurt us but adding St. Louis or Ball State (still don't get the BSU obsession some have) would make us better. Really? I really don't see any of those moves making a difference at all - good or bad.



Seriously?!

If you don't know the FUNDAMENTAL differneces between UIC, UMKC  and  ISU_Muncee and St Louis Univ as schools AND their MBB programs;  you need to get smart on them VERY Quick or take a break from this board!

UMKC?  It's a HORRID MBB program.  UIC...  bland, mediocre...  if WE'D have been in the Horizon League; WE'D have as many or more NCAA berths as the Flamers...


----------



## Bluethunder

Ultimately, going forward, it will be about Indiana State handling its business on the court, no matter who is added.  While I am very opposed to adding UMKC, I am not really strongly against any of the others.

I know people don't get excited about UIC but they have a lot of potential.  They have a large enrollment, really good facilities and some well funded alums.  I think putting them into the Valley could awaken them and turn them back into a solid program.


----------



## bent20

4Q_iu said:


> Seriously?!
> 
> If you don't know the FUNDAMENTAL differneces between UIC, UMKC  and  ISU_Muncee and St Louis Univ as schools AND their MBB programs;  you need to get smart on them VERY Quick or take a break from this board!
> 
> UMKC?  It's a HORRID MBB program.  UIC...  bland, mediocre...  if WE'D have been in the Horizon League; WE'D have as many or more NCAA berths as the Flamers...



And what are Ball State and St. Louis, and the others that have been mentioned? Where are their perennial NCAA Tournament appearances? How much national name recognition do they own? Not much. Not much at all. Yes, they're better, but again, they'd be stepping down or stepping over. And they wouldn't add much, just like adding Valpo and these Chicago schools won't hurt much.

My point is simply that non conference wins against any of these teams this year would have been solid, so how is adding them all that bad? As usual, people here dream for the stars and when they don't get it everything else is shit. Well, it doesn't have to be that bad. Let's worry about beating Drake at the end of a "good" year before we worry about who the MVC adds.


----------



## Bally #50

bent20 said:


> I just find it interesting that some here believe adding UIC or UMKC will hurt us but adding St. Louis or Ball State (still don't get the BSU obsession some have) would make us better. Really? I really don't see any of those moves making a difference at all - good or bad.



I will answer the question about Ball State but I tend to agree with you on your other statements. If you asked me, Bankshot, Sycamore Proud, NW Stater and anyone from the OFC about Ball State, you likely would get the same answer. They were A TRUE RIVAL. Through the 60's, 70's, 80's, and part of the 90's, we had no bigger rival than our "sister" campus. It didn't make a difference whether you had an undefeated team, a nationally-ranked team and in ANY sport, we always HATE Ball State and we LOVE to beat them and the game was always going to be INTENSE. We often drove there for away football and basketball games and had a ball doing it every time, primarily because it was an easy drive. 

Now I am assuming you aren't our age or you would have known why we bring it up all the time. Certainly, they have had some rough times in the past 5 years or so but ups and downs are cyclical and they are ready for some sort of upward swing. When we played BSU in the Hoosier Dome, the game drew 20-25,000 fans and believe me, 65-70% of the crowd was wearing royal blue. As someone said the other day, the old Conference of Midwestern University would have been perfect for us if it had not lost steam and half went to the Mid-American. The reason we like BSU you ask? We don't have a fricking RIVAL to speak of, and we miss the good ol' days.


----------



## 4Q_iu

bent20 said:


> And what are Ball State and St. Louis, and the others that have been mentioned? Where are their perennial NCAA Tournament appearances? How much national name recognition do they own? Not much. Not much at all. Yes, they're better, but again, they'd be stepping down or stepping over. And they wouldn't add much, just like adding Valpo and these Chicago schools won't hurt much.
> 
> My point is simply that non conference wins against any of these teams this year would have been solid, so how is adding them all that bad? As usual, people here dream for the stars and when they don't get it everything else is shit. Well, it doesn't have to be that bad. Let's worry about beating Drake at the end of a "good" year before we worry about who the MVC adds.



St Louis:
NCAA -  1994, 1995, 1998, 2000, 2012, 2013
NIT - 1996, 2003, 2004

Ball State:
NCAA - 1993, 1995, 2000
NIT - 2000, 2002

do the flamers have those?  close BUT they "cheated"  they did it from the Horizon, NOT the Atlantic 10 (16) or even the MAC

I'd MUCH prefer to have St Louis and/or ISU_Muncee over UIC?  or (shudder) UMKC...

Frankly, teh Valley doesn't have a LOT to pick from but PLEASE grab the BEST school ($$$, academics, facilities and COMMITMENT)

UMKC LEFT the Summit... why?  No interest in COMITTING to the program.  The WAC is a SHELL of it's former self.  ANd if you don';t know THAT, you're not following college sports


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Bally #46 said:


> I will answer the question about Ball State but I tend to agree with you on your other statements. If you asked me, Bankshot, Sycamore Proud, NW Stater and anyone from the OFC about Ball State, you likely would get the same answer. They were A TRUE RIVAL. Through the 60's, 70's, 80's, and part of the 90's, we had no bigger rival than our "sister" campus. It didn't make a difference whether you had an undefeated team, a nationally-ranked team and in ANY sport, we always HATE Ball State and we LOVE to beat them and the game was always going to be INTENSE. We often drove there for away football and basketball games and had a ball doing it every time, primarily because it was an easy drive.
> 
> Now I am assuming you aren't our age or you would have known why we bring it up all the time. Certainly, they have had some rough times in the past 5 years or so but ups and downs are cyclical and they are ready for some sort of upward swing. When we played BSU in the Hoosier Dome, the game drew 20-25,000 fans and believe me, 65-70% of the crowd was wearing royal blue. As someone said the other day, the old Conference of Midwestern University would have been perfect for us if it had not lost steam and half went to the Mid-American. The reason we like BSU you ask? We don't have a fricking RIVAL to speak of, and we miss the good ol' days.



Exactly right!  I'd rather take a hard kick to the face than lose to Ball State.


----------



## BankShot

Bluethunder said:


> Ultimately, going forward, it will be about Indiana State handling its business on the court, no matter who is added.  While I am very opposed to adding UMKC, I am not really strongly against any of the others.
> 
> I know people don't get excited about UIC but they have a lot of potential.  They have a large enrollment, really good facilities and some well funded alums.  I think putting them into the Valley could awaken them and turn them back into a solid program.



Curious...WHEN was UIC EVER a "solid program?"


----------



## Pacercolt99

One of the greatest moments I had as a member of the 240 member Marching Sycamores in 1976 was going to Ball State and performing in front of their crowd....we got a standing ovation.....BSU's band received a polite applause. That was awesome. Being in the same conference with BSU would bring a resurgence to a long-time rivalry which the "young 'uns" do not know much about.  I was one of those that traveled to BSU to watch the Trees beat BSU.  Good times.


----------



## Pacercolt99

Pacercolt99 said:


> One of the greatest moments I had as a member of the 240 member Marching Sycamores in 1976 was going to Ball State and performing in front of their crowd....we got a standing ovation.....BSU's band received a polite applause. That was awesome. Being in the same conference with BSU would bring a resurgence to a long-time rivalry which the "young 'uns" do not know much about.  I was one of those that traveled to BSU to watch the Trees beat BSU.  Good times.



Almost forgot...I was also at the night game at Memorial Stadium when over 20,000 fans jammed into Memorial Stadium to watch the Sycamores beat Ball State in a night game shoot out.  Another great Tree memory involving that school in Muncie!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Honestly, I'm beginning to think we'd be better served leaving the Valley. If the goal is to expand West, that isn't going to do anything but run our operating/travel costs up for little benefit IMO. MVCFans was trying to get New Mexico State into the discussion -- what? No.

http://www.foxsportskansascity.com/...xpansion-decision-?blockID=888999&feedID=5089


----------



## Bluethunder

BankShot said:


> Curious...WHEN was UIC EVER a "solid program?"



From 1997-2004, three NCAA tournament appearences, including as a number 9 seed on 1997.  Not a bad stretch, one that I would be happy with here.


----------



## TreeTop

Jason Svoboda said:


> Honestly, I'm beginning to think we'd be better served leaving the Valley. If the goal is to expand West, that isn't going to do anything but run our operating/travel costs up for little benefit IMO. MVCFans was trying to get New Mexico State into the discussion -- what? No.
> 
> http://www.foxsportskansascity.com/...xpansion-decision-?blockID=888999&feedID=5089



I'm willing to listen, but where would we go?


----------



## Pacercolt99

1978-79 Season....Sycamores win by one point with a full court heave by Bob Heaton at New Mexico State to keep the undefeated season intact.  NMS was a good conference rival when ISU first entered the MVC.  West Texas State was in the MoVal too...they featured Maurice Cheeks back in the day. My point is...two western teams were in the MoVal when ISU first entered the conference.


----------



## agrinut

I would take NMSU, like that addition.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

NMSU doesn't make sense for cost reasons alone.


----------



## Bluethunder

If the Dakota schools were a concern for us due to cost, I don't know why we would then want to embrace NMSU a few years later.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bluethunder said:


> If the Dakota schools were a concern for us due to cost, I don't know why we would then want to embrace NMSU a few years later.


Exactly. Right now, here are the trip averages for the conference:

Bradley 275 miles
Drake 370 miles
Evansville 357 miles
Illinois State 313 miles
Indiana State 328 miles
Missouri State 364 miles
Northern Iowa 397 miles
Southern Illinois 331 miles
Wichita State 500 miles

New Mexico State ALONE is 576 miles away from Wichita State. UNI, our most Northern school would have a 1,081 mile trip while the Eastern most school (us) would have a 1,205 mile trip. I understand Wichita State has the best crowd support of anyone in our conference now that Creighton is gone but the league should not cater to one school.


----------



## TreeTop

Jason Svoboda said:


> Honestly, I'm beginning to think we'd be better served leaving the Valley.



Wait, please clarify....do you mean, ISU would be better served leaving the Valley?  Or do you mean, the Valley would be better served leaving the Valley at nine teams?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Quabachi said:


> Wait, please clarify....do you mean, ISU would be better served leaving the Valley?  Or do you mean, the Valley would be better served leaving the Valley at nine teams?



If the Valley is hellbent on moving West, a la the whole Kansas City nonsense, we're better off finding a different home, especially with the uncertainty with the Ed O'Bannon lawsuit. I thought the whole O'Bannon case would just be dismissed but more but more athletic directors and conference commissioners are saying it looks likely that the NCAA will lose the case. The last thing we need is a dramatic increase in logistics costs for all sports. People need to realize this effects more than just hoops.


----------



## BankShot

Bluethunder said:


> From 1997-2004, three NCAA tournament appearences, including as a number 9 seed on 1997.  Not a bad stretch, one that I would be happy with here.



Well, then maybe we outa join a _piss'ant conference _where the odds are more probable...the next few days I'm gonna ask the "resident collegiate hoop expert" snowbirds here in FL what they think about "UIC"...we've got 'em all (IL/MI/OH/KY/NY/NH/CT/TN) so I'm sure I'll get an unbiased perspective.:cheeky:


----------



## BankShot

Jason Svoboda said:


> ... now that Creighton is gone but the league should not cater to one school...



Presto, I'm glad that someone else is seeing the Elgin painting...


----------



## Bluethunder

BankShot said:


> Well, then maybe we outa join a _piss'ant conference _where the odds are more probable...the next few days I'm gonna ask the "resident collegiate hoop expert" snowbirds here in FL what they think about "UIC"...we've got 'em all (IL/MI/OH/KY/NY/NH/CT/TN) so I'm sure I'll get an unbiased perspective.:cheeky:



Funny, I don't remember saying there were a dominant program, merely a solid one in the past.  As for the snowbirds, make sure you ask some of the them what they had for breakfast first, to establish a baseline of their faculties.  I am sure they are experts at the price of gerital and which place has the best early bird specials, but I don't know that I care about their knowledge (or lack thereof) regarding college basketball. 

People need to get this through their heads, there are no big name, stud programs calling the MVC to join.  NO ONE will be thrilled with whomever is asked to come aboard.  It is better to find a program that has good facilities, a solid fan base and a solid footing with respect to athletic budgets and funding.  Those are programs that have potential to grow into something.

When Tulsa left, they were coming off back to back sweet 16 appearances and many would have thought the sky was falling.  Life went on, the conference has gotten stronger.  Add one team that fits in with the budget, academic and geographical parameters of the rest of the conference, and we will be fine.  They will rise up to meet us, the rest of the conference won't sink down to where they may be at current time.

As for Arch Madness, before everyone laments the loss of Creighton and the fan base they bring, remember the amount of fans that Southern Illinois brought in the early 2000's.  Get that program winning again and you will begin to off set the loss of Blue Jay fans.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Creighton has only been the big crowd at Arch Madness for a year.  As Bluethunder said, it has traditionally been SIU that brought the biggest crowd, and the last couple of years it has been (and I'd say will continue to be) WSU.  Arch Madness isn't going down the drain without CU, and neither is the MVC.  It isn't a bad thing, though, to have a desire for the league to get the best possible program in the league.  Rather have Belmont than UIC, but we'll take whoever the league presidents choose.  Hopefully, they know what they're doing...


----------



## BankShot

Bluethunder said:


> Funny, I don't remember saying there were a dominant program, merely a solid one in the past.  As for the snowbirds, make sure you ask some of the them what they had for breakfast first, to establish a baseline of their faculties.  I am sure they are experts at the price of gerital and which place has the best early bird specials, but I don't know that I care about their knowledge (or lack thereof) regarding college basketball.
> 
> People need to get this through their heads, there are no big name, stud programs calling the MVC to join.  NO ONE will be thrilled with whomever is asked to come aboard.  It is better to find a program that has good facilities, a solid fan base and a solid footing with respect to athletic budgets and funding.  Those are programs that have potential to grow into something.
> 
> When Tulsa left, they were coming off back to back sweet 16 appearances and many would have thought the sky was falling.  Life went on, the conference has gotten stronger.  Add one team that fits in with the budget, academic and geographical parameters of the rest of the conference, and we will be fine.  They will rise up to meet us, the rest of the conference won't sink down to where they may be at current time.
> 
> As for Arch Madness, before everyone laments the loss of Creighton and the fan base they bring, remember the amount of fans that Southern Illinois brought in the early 2000's.  Get that program winning again and you will begin to off set the loss of Blue Jay fans.



LOL - I can see how _well informed _you are re: mental faculties of all retirees...Geritol? Hell, you're still stuck in the '50's "Ted Mack Amateur Hour." You mention the massive fan base of SIU to Arch Madness in their heyday...how far is Carbondump from St. Louis?

Finally, your "Flotation Device Theory" re: the "rising of the less fortunate" sounds like the Obama-ization of the MVC. Is this one of the primary goals of the Conference? You act as if there's no cost(s) to the member schools in this novell approach to conference building.

Here's one (1) response re: "UIC" from a former Wabash Valley business owner now living in the Tampa Bay area:hno:

Sent from my iPad

*Who is UIC ? Sorry I am so dense . Illinois Central?
Iowa sorry guys*.

Take this to your MVC marketing executives...


----------



## Bluethunder

Ask many of the same people what they know of Drake or Bradley, doubt you will find too many experts.  For that matter, ask he casual fan of college basketball how impressed they are with Indiana State.  Not like we have been lighting the college basketball world on fire and have earned the right to look down our noses.

If the Presidents go visit UIC, see some great facilities (which they have) and see a commitment and the financial ability to invest in the athletic programs, then I won't be too worried about inviting them in.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

The lower level conferences don't have the name power so I think the argument is a moot point. Even with Wichita State going to the Final Four, they'll be an afterthought within a few years if they don't make it back... see George Mason for a prime example.


----------



## BankShot

Jason Svoboda said:


> The lower level conferences don't have the name power so I think the argument is a moot point. Even with Wichita State going to the Final Four, they'll be an afterthought within a few years if they don't make it back... see George Mason for a prime example.



Most "name power" is generated from HISTORY & TRADITION...squads & players that have given NATIONAL RECOGNITION to the program over the past 50 yrs. So you think money is the key? Go to Dick's Sporting Goods and tell 'em you wanna buy an undefeated '63-64 season w/ Jerry Sloan...or a '67 NIT Championship w/ Walt Frazier. 

What does UIC bring to Dick's "shelf" besides the perpetual shadow of DePaul?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BankShot said:


> Most "name power" is generated from HISTORY & TRADITION...squads & players that have given NATIONAL RECOGNITION to the program over the past 50 yrs. So you think money is the key? Go to Dick's Sporting Goods and tell 'em you wanna buy an undefeated '63-64 season w/ Jerry Sloan...or a '67 NIT Championship w/ Walt Frazier.
> 
> What does UIC bring to Dick's "shelf" besides the perpetual shadow of DePaul?



Nothing more OR LESS than Indiana State does, no?


----------



## BankShot

Look at the comparative HISTORY...what name have they emblazed on their home court?  NAIA final games? NCAA Small or Major achievments? National player awards/recognitions?

Here's an article from E-ville on the "expansion" topic. Weren't the Aces the LAST MVC expansion team, primarily because of their BASKETBALL recognition?

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2013/apr/06/mvc-begins-hunt-for-new-member/


----------



## sycamore tuff

If the MVFC could talk Drake or Eastern Illinois into joining, maybe the current teams could break away and form their own conference.  We would then have all sports in one league.  I mention Drake and Eastern Illinois because from what I've heard on this board, MSU is wanting to join either conference USA or the pioneer league:lol:


----------



## Syc70

sycamore tuff said:


> If the MVFC could talk Drake or Eastern Illinois into joining, maybe the current teams could break away and form their own conference.  We would then have all sports in one league.  I mention Drake and Eastern Illinois because from what I've heard on this board, MSU is wanting to join either conference USA or the pioneer league:lol:



With the changing landscape of conference realignment and threats to the existence of FCS football this may come to pass and it would not be all that bad.  The prestige level may suffer for a while but it might be best for all things considered.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Elgin spoke about the search with Jim Rome of CBS Sports last weekend. MVC officials spent last week visiting several campuses, including the University of Illinois-Chicago, Loyola (Ill.), University of Missouri-Kansas City, and Valparaiso. Local media outlets near Belmont University in Nashville, Tenn., Oral Roberts in Tulsa, Okla., and Denver University in Colorado have also said visits are planned.

http://www.wjbc.com/common/page.php...isit+possible+replacements&id=44863&is_corp=0


----------



## SubGod22

Jason Svoboda said:


> Elgin spoke about the search with Jim Rome of CBS Sports last weekend. MVC officials spent last week visiting several campuses, including the University of Illinois-Chicago, Loyola (Ill.), University of Missouri-Kansas City, and Valparaiso. Local media outlets near Belmont University in Nashville, Tenn., Oral Roberts in Tulsa, Okla., and Denver University in Colorado have also said visits are planned.
> 
> http://www.wjbc.com/common/page.php...isit+possible+replacements&id=44863&is_corp=0


If we're adding one from that group, I'd pick Denver. They bring more to the table in my opinion than any of the others. Yes, it's farther west, but Denver is easy to get to and we're only talking a couple of visits a year for men's and women's basketball as well as volleyball and I think soccer. I doubt that would kill anybody financially. 

Their athletic budget is far greater than any of the others listed. They've been pumping money into basketball and have seen some pretty good results. Attedance is already better than the others mentioned in the link and probably has more room for growth than any of the others. 

And if you're looking at potential TV deals with markets, Denver isn't a bad one at all. 

Is adding a western team really that unattractive if they can bring with them plenty of funding, support and success?


----------



## IndyTreeFan

SubGod22 said:


> If we're adding one from that group, I'd pick Denver. They bring more to the table in my opinion than any of the others. Yes, it's farther west, but Denver is easy to get to and we're only talking a couple of visits a year for men's and women's basketball as well as volleyball and I think soccer. I doubt that would kill anybody financially.
> 
> Their athletic budget is far greater than any of the others listed. They've been pumping money into basketball and have seen some pretty good results. Attedance is already better than the others mentioned in the link and probably has more room for growth than any of the others.
> 
> And if you're looking at potential TV deals with markets, Denver isn't a bad one at all.
> 
> *Is adding a western team really that unattractive *if they can bring with them plenty of funding, support and success?



I just can't get over it being Denver.  Bob Heaton transferred from there to Indiana State because they were de-emphasizing sports.  Of course, that was 30+ years ago...:wacko:

Who would you find a better add, Denver or New Mexico State?  Let's just assume NMSU is in play for argument's sake...


----------



## Jason Svoboda

No, sorry, not a fan of Denver. I've said repeatedly I'm not a fan of adding schools that are singular in focus. They don't even have a baseball team. I wonder how good ISU could be if we could pump all of our money into hoops... yeah, no thanks. Competitive balanace is key IMO.


----------



## SubGod22

IndyTreeFan said:


> I just can't get over it being Denver.  Bob Heaton transferred from there to Indiana State because they were de-emphasizing sports.  Of course, that was 30+ years ago...:wacko:
> 
> Who would you find a better add, Denver or New Mexico State?  Let's just assume NMSU is in play for argument's sake...


Good question. I've liked the thought of NMSU for awhile, but since they never seemed to be in play, I haven't looked into them that much. 



Jason Svoboda said:


> No, sorry, not a fan of Denver. I've said repeatedly I'm not a fan of adding schools that are singular in focus. They don't even have a baseball team. I wonder how good ISU could be if we could pump all of our money into hoops... yeah, no thanks. Competitive balanace is key IMO.


They are singular in focus, but that focus is hockey. 

But are you saying you'd rather take a program that maybe has more sports to offer, but brings little to no value to the sport that is the face of the conference? Denver, from my understanding would also bring a pretty solid women's soccer program and swimming & diving. Neither of those connect with anyone in Wichita, but I know most of us don't hold the no baseball thing against them.


----------



## nwi stater

The best thing of NMSU is the shot heard around the world by Heaton to keep the win streak alive in 79'


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SubGod22 said:


> They are singular in focus, but that focus is hockey.
> 
> But are you saying you'd rather take a program that maybe has more sports to offer, but brings little to no value to the sport that is the face of the conference? Denver, from my understanding would also bring a pretty solid women's soccer program and swimming & diving. Neither of those connect with anyone in Wichita, but I know most of us don't hold the no baseball thing against them.



Yes. I want as close to a full member as possible. Personally, I'd want a school with football, be it scholarship or non-scholarship in FCS. After that, I want them to have a full complement of sports including baseball. I know I'm in the minority and Wichita State fans probably don't have the same viewpoints, but there is a reason you can pay Marshall over a million and our coach makes 1/5 of that.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

I think I'm leaning towards UIC after doing some reading on them today. I like the fact that they offer baseball, track/XC and pretty much the same sports as us besides football -- I've given up on hoping for football playing members. Was also reading over on PantherNation and had a hard time arguing with this:



> Chicago the city? Chicago is a great city and could be very attractive for fans. Having a school affiliate there could spawn conference tournaments, holiday "classics" (how about a Depaul/Creighton v UNI/UIC type double header?) not to mention a high school b-ball hotbed compared to any other of these locations which has to at least be on the mind of the conference. And of course there is the potential TV exposure which may or may not be a valid factor. Regardless, all of these factors can increase visibility for the conference.
> 
> As for UIC the school? The culture is changing at UIC. Its not the same commuter school most of us think of from the past. Much like Milwaukee, they've expanded quite a bit and now have nearly 25% of undergrads living on campus, and almost half within walking distance. And for anyone that cares about the academics, the grad school keeps growing and the med school is in the top 50. Heck, I believe it would be the only school in the MVC to have a med school.
> 
> And as for UIC b-ball? They've invested a lot back into the basketball program (a fact that has made college hockey fans bitter since the mid-90s, ironically). The Pavillion is a nice, on campus arena with a lot of recent upgrades. From a fan perspective its accessible easily by car and public transit. The teams obviously haven't been overly stellar but there was some obvious improvement this season and Howard Moore was a valued assistant before going there. And historically they've finished at .500 or better 2/3rds of the time since going Div 1. So perhaps the pieces are in place for them to make the jump?
> 
> Bottom line, none of the options jump out as fantastic but I'm starting to really warm to the idea that UIC is the "best" choice among them all.



I like the Chicago market best out of all that have been mentioned. I like (self interest) closer opponents so we can actually make games. Illinois high school hoops is head and shoulders above the other options, so I like the opportunity for coaches to spend more time in the Chicagoland area to go with our Indiana recruiting.

Also, expanding on what the PN poster said, rumor has it that Elgin has approached other conferences about neutral site games and with UIC in Chicago, maybe something could be done at the United Center, for example. Would probably be a helluva lot easier attracting top schools to do something in Chicago.


----------



## Southgrad07

Jason Svoboda said:


> I think I'm leaning towards UIC after doing some reading on them today. I like the fact that they offer baseball, track/XC and pretty much the same sports as us besides football -- I've given up on hoping for football playing members. Was also reading over on PantherNation and had a hard time arguing with this:
> 
> 
> 
> I like the Chicago market best out of all that have been mentioned. I like (self interest) closer opponents so we can actually make games. Illinois high school hoops is head and shoulders above the other options, so I like the opportunity for coaches to spend more time in the Chicagoland area to go with our Indiana recruiting.
> 
> Also, expanding on what the PN poster said, rumor has it that Elgin has approached other conferences about neutral site games and with UIC in Chicago, maybe something could be done at the United Center, for example. Would probably be a helluva lot easier attracting top schools to do something in Chicago.



Agree. If we go to 12 id take Denver and Milwaukee. That would give us the Chicago, Denver, and Milwaukee markets. That should help us get a decent tv deal next time around. I have never been for taking a football school because the only quality football schools at our level already have conferences. All the other potential schools don't really bring much else other than hey we play football.  If schools like Dayton and St.  Louis are not options the next best thing is to take schools with upside. All 3 of the schools mentioned above are in big markets and have expanding universities. 

I like having the round robin schedule with 10 schools so I would just be ok with adding UIC. Just saying if going to 12 is what we want i'd definitely want those 2. Belmont is another big market option but their fan support even with success scares me. Also they are not expanding like the other 3.


----------



## ISUCC

I like what Golden has been tweeting tonight. Add Denver, Belmont, and UI-C. That's 3 big markets there. And we hardly ever have to go to Denver since they offer so few sports.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> I like what Golden has been tweeting tonight. Add Denver, Belmont, and UI-C. That's 3 big markets there. And we hardly ever have to go to Denver since they offer so few sports.



I don't like the Denver add BECAUSE of that. Since we aren't going to unify based on football, the programs we add I'd like to have the major sports so we can develop rivalries beyond just hoops. I'd take Belmont because they offer the same as UIC. I'm warming on Milwaukee. I don't want to go West. If we do, I take Oral Roberts over Denver because I believe they have a strong baseball program.

I've got to think the love affair with Denver is because they're in the #17 TV market.


----------



## Bally #50

ISUCC said:


> I like what Golden has been tweeting tonight. Add Denver, Belmont, and UI-C. That's 3 big markets there. And we hardly ever have to go to Denver since they offer so few sports.


I haven't read Todd Golden's tweets, but I will buy that. We need THREE folks, not ONE to begin with, with another one in our hip pocket (UW-Milwaukee or Valpo) if WSU bolts. Not thrilled about it but it is better than some of the other options.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

BTW, here is a handy dandy TV market list.

http://www.tvb.org/media/file/TVB_Market_Profiles_Nielsen_Household_DMA_Ranks2.pdf


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Jason Svoboda said:


> BTW, here is a handy dandy TV market list.
> 
> http://www.tvb.org/media/file/TVB_Market_Profiles_Nielsen_Household_DMA_Ranks2.pdf



When you look at the TV markets UIC, Denver, UMKC, Belmont and Milwaukee make a lot of sense with Denver and UMKC coming in 6th and 7th in a 5 horse race.  I agree with Jason's post on this.  Adding UIC, Belmont and Milwaukee and their TV markets could make The Valley stronger than ever financially.


----------



## agrinut

For those that want 3, what reason do you want 3? All the market talk is great but none of those teams move the needle in their respected markets. Terre Haute will have more eyes on the games then in Nashville or Chicago. If there is no market saturation I doubt we see much of an increase. To me adding 3 just makes the already small pie that much smaller.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

agrinut said:


> For those that want 3, what reason do you want 3? All the market talk is great but none of those teams move the needle in their respected markets. Terre Haute will have more eyes on the games then in Nashville or Chicago. If there is no market saturation I doubt we see much of an increase. To me adding 3 just makes the already small pie that much smaller.


The MAC teams don't move the needle in their markets, either, but they got a decent media deal. It's about markets. If you can find a network that needs content, offering them Chicago is infinitely better than offering them Terre Haute, for example, when it comes to target demographics, selling advertising, etc.


----------



## SubGod22

Market is only a bonus for the love afair with Denver. They are one of the better basketball options that we're looking at and have far greater upside than anyone being considered. That's where the love affair is coming from with them. They are investing in basketball and have greater resources than all of the other options. 

IF we add based on basketball and the potential of any one school, Denver is at or near the top of the list. If a lack of other sports is a concern, they fall down the list. But if the MVC wants to maintain a top 10 conference, they have to prioritize basketball no matter who the 10th member becomes. If basketball isn't the primary factor, there are a number of schools who have been checking the landscape and may be more eager to leave.


----------



## Bally #50

agrinut said:


> For those that want 3, what reason do you want 3? All the market talk is great but none of those teams move the needle in their respected markets. Terre Haute will have more eyes on the games then in Nashville or Chicago. If there is no market saturation I doubt we see much of an increase. To me adding 3 just makes the already small pie that much smaller.


Personally, I want THREE because it's a safety net. We could lose another 2-3 schools in a heartbeat. This scenario is going to be volatile as hell until it settles in and it is going to require some back up plans to be in place. WSU, UE already are discussing it, your Bears at least are talking about it, and Drake and Bradley could jump ship too. If you feel comfortable at ten, that's your prerogative but I think we need to be more proactive than that. The number goes to SEVEN we are on the outside looking in and basically with no where to go.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SubGod22 said:


> Market is only a bonus for the love afair with Denver. They are one of the better basketball options that we're looking at and have far greater upside than anyone being considered. That's where the love affair is coming from with them. They are investing in basketball and have greater resources than all of the other options.
> 
> IF we add based on basketball and the potential of any one school, Denver is at or near the top of the list. If a lack of other sports is a concern, they fall down the list. But if the MVC wants to maintain a top 10 conference, they have to prioritize basketball no matter who the 10th member becomes. If basketball isn't the primary factor, there are a number of schools who have been checking the landscape and may be more eager to leave.


They have greater resources because that is one of the few sports they offer. I don't want another Creighton. Again, if the Valley doesn't want a level playing field, maybe we should find the door.


----------



## SubGod22

The Valley will never have a "level" playing field. Not everyone is going to invest in football and even some of those that don't still have small budgets and can struggle. Denver still has other sports it funds, including their primary focus which is hockey. I do agree that they don't participate in all of the same sports but that doesn't concern some of us. I understand the different approaches, but still feel that the primary focus should be on strengthening basketball on the court over everything else since that's where this conference makes money and gets noticed. Denver would do that better than anyone being offered. Just because they have wealthy donors shouldn't be a negative. 

If we want to make the MVC as strong as possible, we need to target the school(s) that can help the most on the court in the long run and keep the conference strong. If that's not the direction this conference wants to go, you'll start seeing defections from others. Some are already looking at options, but right now the MVC still has to potential to offer a quality product on the court. If they choose to only go after schools with small budgets to make the bottom half feel better or more competitive, you're going to lose the others and only weaken the conference further. And that's my concern as a fan of the MVC. I don't want to see the MVC lose top 10 status and I feel we could still make some adds that will be quality the court teams in the near future. 

And I wouldn't say that Denver will never add some of the sports that you want to see. What I've seen is that they don't want to do that right now. They're currently trying to build up basketball and are doing a fine job of it. When that gets even more established, and successful, I think they'd be open into adding baseball/softball and/or T&F. 

I guess I want the Valley to be more competitive at the top and remain in the national conversation as a top non-bcs or big 6 conference. Not to be a more competitive conference from top to bottom and be lumped in with the Big South or something. But again, that's me. And it doesn't have to be Denver or nobody. I'm just not sure I see UIC as ever being able to compete in the MVC. What sense does it make to add a school that may never make it out of Thursday? Even when talking to Illinois State fans the only positive they seem to find is that they could attend a local game if they live in Chicago. That's pretty much it.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SubGod22 said:


> The Valley will never have a "level" playing field. Not everyone is going to invest in football and even some of those that don't still have small budgets and can struggle. Denver still has other sports it funds, including their primary focus which is hockey. I do agree that they don't participate in all of the same sports but that doesn't concern some of us. I understand the different approaches, but still feel that the primary focus should be on strengthening basketball on the court over everything else since that's where this conference makes money and gets noticed. Denver would do that better than anyone being offered. Just because they have wealthy donors shouldn't be a negative.
> 
> If we want to make the MVC as strong as possible, we need to target the school(s) that can help the most on the court in the long run and keep the conference strong. If that's not the direction this conference wants to go, you'll start seeing defections from others. Some are already looking at options, but right now the MVC still has to potential to offer a quality product on the court. If they choose to only go after schools with small budgets to make the bottom half feel better or more competitive, you're going to lose the others and only weaken the conference further. And that's my concern as a fan of the MVC. I don't want to see the MVC lose top 10 status and I feel we could still make some adds that will be quality the court teams in the near future.
> 
> And I wouldn't say that Denver will never add some of the sports that you want to see. What I've seen is that they don't want to do that right now. They're currently trying to build up basketball and are doing a fine job of it. When that gets even more established, and successful, I think they'd be open into adding baseball/softball and/or T&F.
> 
> I guess I want the Valley to be more competitive at the top and remain in the national conversation as a top non-bcs or big 6 conference. Not to be a more competitive conference from top to bottom and be lumped in with the Big South or something. But again, that's me. And it doesn't have to be Denver or nobody. I'm just not sure I see UIC as ever being able to compete in the MVC. What sense does it make to add a school that may never make it out of Thursday? Even when talking to Illinois State fans the only positive they seem to find is that they could attend a local game if they live in Chicago. That's pretty much it.



That's great and all, but you don't have to fund 126 additional scholarships elsewhere and the sunk costs that go with funding additional sports, so those funds can go directly into your hoops program. I wouldn't expect you to understand.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

SubGod22 said:


> I guess I want the Valley to be more competitive at the top and remain in the national conversation as a top non-bcs or big 6 conference. Not to be a more competitive conference from top to bottom and be lumped in with the Big South or something. But again, that's me. And it doesn't have to be Denver or nobody. I'm just not sure I see UIC as ever being able to compete in the MVC. What sense does it make to add a school that may never make it out of Thursday? Even when talking to Illinois State fans the only positive they seem to find is that they could attend a local game if they live in Chicago. That's pretty much it.



This.

But then again, I'm not sold on Denver's sudden desire to spend on their athletic programs, either.  They've been down that road before, and backed off big time.  I still think Murray State would be the best add, but I keep getting told that football would be so hard work out...:beatingdeadhorse:


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> This.
> 
> But then again, I'm not sold on Denver's sudden desire to spend on their athletic programs, either.  They've been down that road before, and backed off big time.  I still think Murray State would be the best add, but I keep getting told that football would be so hard work out...:beatingdeadhorse:



If you truly believe that, then we should drop football. The same analogy that you used about moving to a crappy conference, I'm not interested in going 14-20 every year because the schools we invite in spent $5m more on their hoops program than we can. If we drop football, then we can spend the same kind of coin that the Butlers and the Wichita States do.


----------



## SubGod22

IndyTreeFan said:


> This.
> 
> But then again, I'm not sold on Denver's sudden desire to spend on their athletic programs, either.  They've been down that road before, and backed off big time.  I still think Murray State would be the best add, but I keep getting told that football would be so hard work out...:beatingdeadhorse:


I'm a big fan of adding Murray as well and thought it was a no-brainer until I started talking with fans of some of the football schools. If there were a chance for them to place their football in another conference if the MVFC denied them then I think we'd jump all over it. But unfortunately that seems to be an issue. 

Denver now has new leadership that I think sees that while hockey is their number one priority, it won't get them the national attention they desire so I fully believe the increased focus on basketball to be long term. 

And I understan that my school doesn't invest in football and that football hurts a lot of MVC schools from the financial investment area. But that doesn't change the fact that basketball is where this conference gets recognized and adding stronger basketball programs would help everyone. More opportunities at post season wins and a stronger in conference RPI/SOS that helps all on board.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

That $5M difference didn't make much of difference this year, did it?  We beat a Final Four team on their court by double digits, and we annihilated a Top-15 team at Hulman Center.  We didn't crap out at the end of the season because WSU and CU spent more than us.  We crapped out because the team lacked leadership and maturity.

I'm not interested in filling the MVC with a bunch of losers just to make it easier for ISU fans to accept sucking every year.  If you lower the level of competition, ISU will just figure out a way to lower themselves to it.  Compete at the highest level we can, and that's the MVC - the strong version.  It might take a little more work at ISU, but it can be done.  I would contend that it's being done right now.  Otherwise, why do we torture ourselves with talk of being a really good team?  With your outlook, we can NEVER be truly good, because we spend $3M instead of $5M.  That's defeatist.  That's a classic ISU mentality, and the reason we went through decades of decline.

You know, you and I are never going to agree on this.  And that's OK.  Variety is the spice of life!!!  :lowfive:


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> That $5M difference didn't make much of difference this year, did it?  We beat a Final Four team on their court by double digits, and we annihilated a Top-15 team at Hulman Center.  We didn't crap out at the end of the season because WSU and CU spent more than us.  We crapped out because the team lacked leadership and maturity.
> 
> I'm not interested in filling the MVC with a bunch of losers just to make it easier for ISU fans to accept sucking every year.  If you lower the level of competition, ISU will just figure out a way to lower themselves to it.  Compete at the highest level we can, and that's the MVC - the strong version.  It might take a little more work at ISU, but it can be done.  I would contend that it's being done right now.  Otherwise, why do we torture ourselves with talk of being a really good team?  With your outlook, we can NEVER be truly good, because we spend $3M instead of $5M.  That's defeatist.  That's a classic ISU mentality, and the reason we went through decades of decline.
> 
> You know, you and I are never going to agree on this.  And that's OK.  Variety is the spice of life!!!  :lowfive:



I disagree. I think we crapped out because we are not as talented as Wichita State and Creighton and their recruiting budgets reflect that. Players win games. They recruit coast-to-coast and we recruit regionally. Go take a look at recruit lists on Rivals and you'll see this as fact. We've managed to compete for a couple years. Look at a large sample size and everyone has been Creighton's doormat in this league. If Lansing had $5m YEARLY to spend between buy games, recruiting budgets, assistant coach salaries, facilities, I honestly think we'd be a perennial NCAA tournament team because of where we're situated. Problem is, he doesn't and I've been told our assistants couldn't even turn in mileage reimbursement requests in the past. 

Further, the whole filling the MVC with a bunch of losers is a piss poor analogy and doesn't make any sense. UIC is no greater and no worse than a Denver, Belmont or Murray State. I have a feeling Murray State will fall down to Earth because their recruiting has been suspect. All of these teams, to take it step further, haven't won squat. I don't consider winning the Ohio Valley/Horizon/Summit impressive if you yourself consider most of their league mates losers.


----------



## SubGod22

How is UIC no worse than Denver, Belmont or Murray? I think the only thing UIC has on the others is their city. And they're not even on the radar there. The other three have a vastly superior product on the court. 

And if we make adds like UIC, it woun't be long before the MVC is just another OVC, Horizon, Summit...


----------



## SycamoreFan317

After reading these threads about conferences I have come to the conclusion, in my opinion, it would be best to start sending out letters to see how much interest there might be in creating a new conference of like schools. Everybody must play football to be considered.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SubGod22 said:


> How is UIC no worse than Denver, Belmont or Murray? I think the only thing UIC has on the others is their city. And they're not even on the radar there. The other three have a vastly superior product on the court.
> 
> And if we make adds like UIC, it woun't be long before the MVC is just another OVC, Horizon, Summit...



Give me 10 year comparisons between all of the programs listed. Let me know when you've got that compiled.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SycamoreFan317 said:


> After reading these threads about conferences I have come to the conclusion, in my opinion, it would be best to start sending out letters to see how much interest there might be in creating a new conference of like schools. Everybody must play football to be considered.


That's what I'd prefer in a heartbeat.


----------



## SubGod22

Jason Svoboda said:


> Give me 10 year comparisons between all of the programs listed. Let me know when you've got that compiled.


RPIs

Belmont - 97.9
Denver - 182.5
Murray - 105.5
UIC - 188.7

And as I've said, Belmont has been the best, but not sure how much more potential they have. Also have few fans. They've only been outside the top 150 once in the last decade. 

Denver is trending way up. They finished at 66 this year. Much better than UIC has in the past decade. Been in the top 100 3 times in the last decade and both of the last two years. And as has been mentioned, has the resources to compete which seems to be what you're afraid of. 

Murray I like even though they have no market. Solid program with decent fan support. Been outside the top 150 twice. Half of the past 10 years they've been inside the top 100. 

UIC has been trending down with the excpetion of this year. Their 169 is the best they've had in 5 years. Their best was 10 years ago at 91. They've only been inside the 150 one other time in the past decade.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SubGod22 said:


> RPIs
> 
> Belmont - 97.9
> Denver - 182.5
> Murray - 105.5
> UIC - 188.7
> 
> And as I've said, Belmont has been the best, but not sure how much more potential they have. Also have few fans. They've only been outside the top 150 once in the last decade.
> 
> Denver is trending way up. They finished at 66 this year. Much better than UIC has in the past decade. Been in the top 100 3 times in the last decade and both of the last two years. And as has been mentioned, has the resources to compete which seems to be what you're afraid of.
> 
> Murray I like even though they have no market. Solid program with decent fan support. Been outside the top 150 twice. Half of the past 10 years they've been inside the top 100.
> 
> UIC has been trending down with the excpetion of this year. Their 169 is the best they've had in 5 years. Their best was 10 years ago at 91. They've only been inside the 150 one other time in the past decade.



RPI should not be the sole criteria to base a selection on. Cumulative records? How many times have each been to the tournament? If you want to champion Denver, show me their full resume. I know UIC has been to the tournament twice in the last 10 years I think -- I don't believe Denver ever has, no? Further, this isn't just a basketball conference. Again, I know this is hard for Shocker fans because you guys have such a singular focus, but other sports do/should matter. Of the four here, Denver is the worst choice as an all-around option IMO. We've got to take our other sports programs into account because they have a hard time scheduling, for example. 

As an example, I believe UIC and Belmont both have good baseball programs if I recall. Would help elevate MVC baseball -- there was a reason we granted Dallas Baptist associate membership. 

I've seen you champion Denver on every Valley board and pretty much every board has shot you down. Honestly, what is your infatuation with Denver? Their top three programs are Hockey, then Lacrosse then Hoops. NO. THANK. YOU.


----------



## SubGod22

RPI isn't the only criteria, but W/L against different competition is hard to gauge. RPI kind of takes that into account. And I haven't been shot down on every board. Most WSU fans prefer Denver over the other options. The Illinois State fans who get away from the whole UIC is located closer to where I live have looked at Denver favorably. Nobody on the UNI board has shot down the thought of Denver. You are the only one on this board who has shot down the idea. So saying everyone is doing so isn't being honest. 

I want the best basketball program with the most potential. That's why I like Denver. And WSU is far more than just basketball no matter how you want to paint us. There's a reason we win the All Sports title more than anyone else. Denver may not compete in all the sports but they compete in the one that matters most. If there were a comparable basketball program, results/potential, then I'd put more stock into the non revenue sports. But no other school being considered, at least from what I've seen presented on all other sites I look at, really tops or pushes Denver when it comes to basketball product and potential. 

I'm sorry that I want a strong basketball conference and you only want one that gives you easier wins. I can't help that.


----------



## Parsons

Why would Denver want to leave the WAC? They just joined.


----------



## SubGod22

Parsons said:


> Why would Denver want to leave the WAC? They just joined.


They've already announced they're leaving the WAC because it was falling apart. They're set to join the Summit. But in the past, they've mentioned that the MVC is one of two conferences they'd love to be in.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Easier wins seems to be popular here...


----------



## Jason Svoboda

SubGod22 said:


> RPI isn't the only criteria, but W/L against different competition is hard to gauge. RPI kind of takes that into account. And I haven't been shot down on every board. Most WSU fans prefer Denver over the other options. The Illinois State fans who get away from the whole UIC is located closer to where I live have looked at Denver favorably. Nobody on the UNI board has shot down the thought of Denver. You are the only one on this board who has shot down the idea. So saying everyone is doing so isn't being honest.
> 
> I want the best basketball program with the most potential. That's why I like Denver. And WSU is far more than just basketball no matter how you want to paint us. There's a reason we win the All Sports title more than anyone else. Denver may not compete in all the sports but they compete in the one that matters most. If there were a comparable basketball program, results/potential, then I'd put more stock into the non revenue sports. But no other school being considered, at least from what I've seen presented on all other sites I look at, really tops or pushes Denver when it comes to basketball product and potential.
> 
> I'm sorry that I want a strong basketball conference and you only want one that gives you easier wins. I can't help that.



This has nothing to do about easier wins. I've stated from the beginning that I want a level playing field. Again, Shocker fans don't understand that because you don't have a football program. That's 124 scholarships, salaries and operating costs to go with the football and associated women's sports that you guys can pour back into your hoops program. If you don't think that is a valid concern from our point of view, then this discussion isn't going to go anywhere. Admitting Denver, another program that can pour all of it's funds directly into the hoops program because they don't fund like sports, gives them a distinct competitive advantage. 

What this boils down to is that the Valley is NOT a good fit for Indiana State, especially if this is the path Elgin is heading down.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Easier wins seems to be popular here...


You being an established business man, I just don't understand how you don't think the money gap isn't a significant factor.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

*2011 Revenues/Expenses/Subsidy*

Indiana State


REVENUES:​



EXPENDITURES:​









<tbody>

</tbody>
Ticket Sales: $529,670
Student Fees: $5,780,135
School Funds: $2,523,549
Contributions: $724,196
Rights/Licensing: $1,239,824
Other Revenue: $929,407

Scholarships: $3,670,755
Coaching Staff: $3,479,096
Building/Grounds: $116,576
Other Expenses: $4,285,923

Total Revenue: $11,726,781
Total Expenses: $11,552,350
Total Subsidy: $8,303,684
Percent Subsidy: 70.8%

Wichita State


REVENUES:​



EXPENDITURES:​









<tbody>

</tbody>
Ticket Sales: $4,122,355
Student Fees: $2,928,121
School Funds: $3,501,835
Contributions: $6,299,102
Rights/Licensing: $3,496,535
Other Revenue: $764,996

Scholarships: $2,626,271
Coaching Staff: $6,538,535
Building/Grounds: $1,072,477
Other Expenses: $9,691,991

Total Revenue: $21,112,944
Total Expenses: $19,929,274
Total Subsidy: $6,429,56
Percent Subsidy: 30.5%


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> You being an established business man, I just don't understand how you don't think the money gap isn't a significant factor.



I fight every day against businesses in my industry that have way more capital than I do.  I have to be smarter, more nimble, innovative, and yeah, I gotta work a little harder against them.  I try to spend wisely, take calculated risks that offer a good return.  I am not the most well funded, but I like to think I compete pretty well.  It's not all about having the most, it's about what you do with what you've got.

Look, I think ISU has tons of potential.  I honestly believe that we can grow into a Wichita State type power, but not if we are in a weaker and weaker conference.  Strength helps us grow.  We can get to the next level if we do good things with what we've got.  Growth potential.  ISU is oozing with it!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> I fight every day against businesses in my industry that have way more capital than I do.  I have to be smarter, more nimble, innovative, and yeah, I gotta work a little harder against them.  I try to spend wisely, take calculated risks that offer a good return.  I am not the most well funded, but I like to think I compete pretty well.  It's not all about having the most, it's about what you do with what you've got.



But the fact of the matter is you'll likely never sit first in total volume, sales or commissions, correct? I'm not sure what you use as your main unit of measure so excuse my ignorance there.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> But the fact of the matter is you'll likely never sit first in total volume, sales or commissions, correct? I'm not sure what you use as your main unit of measure so excuse my ignorance there.



Not true.  Every top performer in my company started where I did.  I can be as big as I want.  The growth potential is there.  I just have to decide what I want to be...and then plan and do it!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Not true.  Every top performer in my company started where I did.  I can be as big as I want.  The growth potential is there.  I just have to decide what I want to be...and then plan and do it!



Fair enough. However, this is a bad analogy because Indiana State has a ceiling based on population, enrollment, etc.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Look, I think ISU has tons of potential.  I honestly believe that we can grow into a Wichita State type power, but not if we are in a weaker and weaker conference.  Strength helps us grow.  We can get to the next level if we do good things with what we've got.  Growth potential.  ISU is oozing with it!


Without dropping the football program, I'd say it is mathematically impossible.


----------



## bigsportsfan

The 10th MVC member will be Loyola (Chicago). Bank on it.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

bigsportsfan said:


> The 10th MVC member will be Loyola (Chicago). Bank on it.


Gut feeling or is this something you're hearing?


----------



## SycamoreFan317

Jason Svoboda said:


> Without dropping the football program, I'd say it is mathematically impossible.



I agree the amount of money needed is off the charts we do not currently have the resources to get there. To steal from Bally, again. Do we want to be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a large pond. The big fish that are currently in the large pond will never let the small fish that join the large pond to become big fish.


----------



## mohoops247

bigsportsfan said:


> The 10th MVC member will be Loyola (Chicago). Bank on it.



+1


----------



## Sycamore Proud

I still don't understand how many feel Denver should be added to The Valley because of its basketball.  Hoops is not their priority--that would be hockey.  And hockey is big in the Valley;  I keep forgetting that.


----------



## agrinut

Sycamore Proud said:


> I still don't understand how many feel Denver should be added to The Valley because of its basketball.  Hoops is not their priority--that would be hockey.  And hockey is big in the Valley;  I keep forgetting that.



I wish the valley would add scholarship hockey.


----------



## ISU_TREE_FAN

bigsportsfan said:


> The 10th MVC member will be Loyola (Chicago). Bank on it.



http://ramblermania.yuku.com/forums/1/Rambler-Rants/Rambler-Rants


----------



## ISUCC

Rumor mill time! Loyola athletes are under impression that Ramblers-to-the-MVC is a done deal. We'll see. Chicago market needs to be tapped.— Todd Aaron Golden (@ToddAaronGolden) April 12, 2013


----------



## Bluethunder

Personally, I would rather have UIC than Loyola.  I see more potential in UIC.  Just my two cents though.


----------



## ISUCC

Bluethunder said:


> Personally, I would rather have UIC than Loyola.  I see more potential in UIC.  Just my two cents though.



maybe we'll have both? Who knows??


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Ok, Jason, I give.  I'll celebrate the addition of a crappy Loyola program to help the MVC.  Not sure how, but since they suck, it'll be great.

And obviously, unbeknownst to me, the pie of money available to MVC schools is static, and since it is literally impossible for us to get any more of a share than we do, we're stuck.  I am now going to become an advocate of moving us to the OVC.  Bigger fish, smaller pond and all.  Of course, I would assume that the amount of money available to the OVC schools is also static, and I would assume that since we cannot affect our own change of the size of our piece of the pie, it follows that we're going to be in this position forever.

Shit.  Just when I was thinking we could be something.  Oh well, easy come, easy go...:dead:


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Ok, Jason, I give.  I'll celebrate the addition of a crappy Loyola program to help the MVC.  Not sure how, but since they suck, it'll be great.
> 
> And obviously, unbeknownst to me, the pie of money available to MVC schools is static, and since it is literally impossible for us to get any more of a share than we do, we're stuck.  I am now going to become an advocate of moving us to the OVC.  Bigger fish, smaller pond and all.  Of course, I would assume that the amount of money available to the OVC schools is also static, and I would assume that since we cannot affect our own change of the size of our piece of the pie, it follows that we're going to be in this position forever.
> 
> Shit.  Just when I was thinking we could be something.  Oh well, easy come, easy go...:dead:



Mark me down as one that would rather have UIC over Loyola if we're entering the Chicago market. 

You honestly think that whoever the Valley adds will make or break us "being something"? The teams that are available to us are available to us for a reason. We're pulling from lesser conferences. I'm all for taking the strongest school -- that is like the majority of the schools in the Valley. That's all I've said from the outset. Level playing field. That's all I want. UIC, Belmont, Murray State and Valpo are the teams I'd like to choose from.


----------



## BankShot

At least Murray State has one helluva recreational area where students/alumni could take a mini-vacation when playing 'em...Land Between the Lakes is a good fishing/boating destination, very similar to Springfield/Branson.

UIC & Loyola? Have fun visiting the Chicago "market"...:razz:
Take all 3 - UIC, Loyola, Valpo - increase the Chicago market "visability," as one school won't slice thru the smog!

As far as the Nashville "market," take BOTH Murray St & Belmont - same reasoning (area VISIBILITY).

Take all 5 and the MVC would have BOTH Nashville & Chicago playgrounds to toy around with...


----------



## Jason Svoboda

A post from the Redbird forum:



> Here is what I know.
> 
> 1. Reportedly (from another poster on this board) the MVC Presidents met yesterday.
> 2. Sometime in the afternoon, a Loyola athlete posted on Twitter that Loyola was moving to the MVC, and the post was removed about 20 minutes later.
> 3. WHOI's Jim Mattson tweeted yesterday afternoon that it "sounds like" Loyola was going to MVC.
> 4. Chicago Sun Times sports blogger Joe Henrickson tweeted "Big move for Loyola. Ramblers headed to the Missouri Valley to replace Creighton."
> 5. About that time, I got a cryptic, coded message from someone who would definitely know the facts that positive things had happened with Loyola's talks with the Valley.
> 6. I called a well-connected fan I know with contacts high up in the Loyola athletic department who had heard that Loyola's campaign to move to the MVC had been successful. (We also discussed plans to go to Arch Madness).
> 7. KSDK-TV in St. Louis reported on their 10 p.m. news sports report that Loyola was going to be admitted to the MVC.
> 8. Dave Reynolds from the Peoria Journal Star then tweeted the Loyola was going to the MVC.
> 
> This news came on the heels of Loyola announcing Sheryl Swoopes as new Women's Basketball coach earlier in the day. The opening of the multi-million dollar Damen Student Center (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybH7MUXD ... e=youtu.be ) happened the day after the MVC visit to Loyola on April 2, which I assume was impressive to the visiting team. Overall Loyola has spent roughly $100 million on facility upgrades and new construction over the past two years. Additionally, Loyola is currently in first place in the Horizon League in terms of its overall performance in all athletic programs (http://www.horizonleague.org/blog/loyol ... ships.html ). I think it's obvious from what I know about the athletic program that there is a willingness and intent on Loyola's part to invest a lot in the athletic program.
> 
> And lastly, from the point of view of the MVC presidents, I have to feel that Loyola's finances and resources must make a difference. With the departure of Creighton, the MVC lost its highest endowed school. Creighton had a $375 million endowment, more than twice as much as the average of the other nine MVC schools. Loyola's endowment is now $389 million. Loyola has assets of $1.2 Billion and they average $159 Million in donations per year. They also average $10 Million per year on investments in dividends and interest. By comparison, Creighton had $853 million in assets, $64 million in donations.
> 
> So although Loyola may not have had as much success leading up to the change in the leadership of its athletic department two years ago, there are some significant upgrades in progress and there is no financial impediment to Loyola becoming a major factor in a league with the stature and typical budgets in the MVC. It just depends on their will to spend and compete financially. I think there's enough proof that they're willing to do so to satisfy the concerns the MVC might have had.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> A post from the Redbird forum:



Great.  Some level playing field.  We can't even raise a "real" $85M, and we're bringing in a school with all that money and no football.  Jason, you can't like this.  I don't even like it.  I would rather have had a state school.  Oh well, the more things change, the more they stay the same.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Great.  Some level playing field.  We can't even raise a "real" $85M, and we're bringing in a school with all that money and no football.  Jason, you can't like this.  I don't even like it.  I would rather have had a state school.  Oh well, the more things change, the more they stay the same.


Like I said above, I'd have preferred UIC, Valpo, Murray State or Belmont. 

I will say they are limited in the fact that their arena only seats 5,400 and I'd think expansion would be difficult having been in there when we played in the tournament a couple years ago. This is the problem with the infatuation for private schools.


----------



## SycamoreFan317

Time for ISU to take the lead and start sending out letters to see if we can start a new conference of LIKE institutions. I say start with IN, IL, MO, KY, OH, MI.


----------



## bigsportsfan

Bluethunder said:


> Personally, I would rather have UIC than Loyola.  I see more potential in UIC.  Just my two cents though.



I was told the MVC liked UIC over Loyola because UIC has baseball and Loyola doesn't, so the sports-crazy Loyola president said "OK, we'll add baseball then."


----------



## Bluethunder

bigsportsfan said:


> I was told the MVC liked UIC over Loyola because UIC has baseball and Loyola doesn't, so the sports-crazy Loyola president said "OK, we'll add baseball then."



Well that would be a bit of a middle finger to the Horizon League.  The league lost Butler and now only has five teams competing in baseball, and either did, or will, lose their automatic bid because of it.  Loyola didn't field a team, but will field one in order to jump to a higher profile league?  That would rubbing a little salt in the wound.


----------



## Daveinth

SycamoreFan317 said:


> Time for ISU to take the lead and start sending out letters to see if we can start a new conference of LIKE institutions. I say start with IN, IL, MO, KY, OH, MI.



I would bet good money this will never happen and even more money that if someone did Indiana State would never lead the charge. It is not like we are this big powerful school that has all the drawing power of  some schools. We have been that lower level team sucking money off the upper tier teams for many years . What makes anyone think that a couple of mediocre winning seasons would bring Indiana State to become this basketball powerhouse that suddenly can make its own conference ? Somebody please explain to me where we stand on  a national level so highly regarded that we could do this .


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Daveinth said:


> I would bet good money this will never happen and even more money that if someone did Indiana State would never lead the charge. It is not like we are this big powerful school that has all the drawing power of  some schools. We have been that lower level team sucking money off the upper tier teams for many years . What makes anyone think that a couple of mediocre winning seasons would bring Indiana State to become this basketball powerhouse that suddenly can make its own conference ? Somebody please explain to me where we stand on  a national level so highly regarded that we could do this .



I understand your position and don't totally disagree with it.  That said, a few visionary leaders from schools in the states mentioned (and maybe add 1 or 2) could put together a competitive conference with football and basketball or just basketball along with the other sports that would minimize travel costs and time provide bitter rivalry games in all sports.  I believe they could play FCS level football and go D1 in all other sports.  Can it happen?  Yes.  Should it happen? Maybe.  Will it happen?  Doubtful.  Would I like to see it happen?  You better believe it!


----------



## Bluethunder

Loyola joining the Missouri Valley is expected to be made in an announcement on Friday.


----------



## ISUCC

Indy Star reporter David Woods says both Loyola and UIC to the MVC?? WTH??


Horizon losing both Chicago schools. MT @Pg_Benson Evansville Courier-Press reporting Loyola invited to join MVC and accepted.— David Woods (@DavidWoods007) April 13, 2013


----------



## ISUCC

and then this


@michaelpointer Both to the Missouri Valley.— David Woods (@DavidWoods007) April 13, 2013


----------



## mohoops247

I think Woods is mistaken from reports about UIC from a couple weeks ago. I was told only one team being added this year.


----------



## Bally #50

I don't honestly think ANYONE knows what we are doing. Personally I have always felt we would NEVER take just one. RP has never said ONE and that tells me that they are not showing their cards before they have to. We have NO IDEA what they are doing, we're only guessing.


----------



## Bluethunder

Bally #46 said:


> ........we're only guessing.



But thats the fun part Bally!!!!


----------



## Bluethunder

mohoops247 said:


> I think Woods is mistaken from reports about UIC from a couple weeks ago. I was told only one team being added this year.



Agreed.  Article on the Eville courier and press says Loyola to be added, press conference on Friday and no indications of going beyond ten.

http://www.courierpress.com/news/2013/apr/13/mvc-invites-loyola-chicago-replace-creighton/


----------



## ISUCC

could be 10 or 12, man, who knows??


----------



## Bally #50

Bluethunder said:


> But thats the fun part Bally!!!!



I'm certainly not jumping on MOHOOPS here, and you are 100% right BlueThunder, it is fun. But I am just saying that we are grabbing at straws when it comes to what is and what isn't going to happen here. Ron P. has said little or nothing about what is going to happen, which makes me think they still don't know yet. With one school gone and 3-4 at least talking about doing something else, we'd be foolish to not be looking at MORE than one. Whether that happens, nobody knows. I do know that if we stick at 10, and we lose three, we are not a conference any more and we know this conference-swap thing is going to be continual for some time to come. 

I am excited to see how it all ends up but I am telling you, we'll be bitching about it any way they go.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bally #46 said:


> I'm certainly not jumping on MOHOOPS here, and you are 100% right BlueThunder, it is fun. But I am just saying that we are grabbing at straws when it comes to what is and what isn't going to happen here. Ron P. has said little or nothing about what is going to happen, which makes me think they still don't know yet. With one school gone and 3-4 at least talking about doing something else, we'd be foolish to not be looking at MORE than one. Whether that happens, nobody knows. I do know that if we stick at 10, and we lose three, we are not a conference any more and we know this conference-swap thing is going to be continual for some time to come.
> 
> I am excited to see how it all ends up but I am telling you, we'll be bitching about it any way they go.


It's not up to Prettyman, it's up to Dr. Bradley. He may have input from the athletic side, but it seems that the University Presidents may have voted with academic interests at the forefront here on this one. Could also be why UIC is apparently candidate #2, since they have a medical school, something that Indiana State has plans for in the future.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

mohoops247 said:


> I think Woods is mistaken from reports about UIC from a couple weeks ago. I was told only one team being added this year.


Maybe someone else is leaving?


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> It's not up to Prettyman, it's up to Dr. Bradley. He may have input from the athletic side, but it seems that the University Presidents may have voted with academic interests at the forefront here on this one. Could also be why UIC is apparently candidate #2, since they have a medical school, something that Indiana State has plans for in the future.


I should have included his name too but trust me, they will _agree_ on what's right for the school. Bottom line, Boda, it's an athletic conference, not an exchange of academic ideas and teaching techniques.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bally #46 said:


> I should have included his name too but trust me, they will _agree_ on what's right for the school. Bottom line, Boda, it's an athletic conference, not an exchange of academic ideas and teaching techniques.



For the most part, you're right. But if you don't think these schools weight academic prestige, markets (prospective students) and other factors into the equation in addition to their athletic prowess, I think you're selling them short. After all, we heard from the outset at the strong desire to have a private school added. That limits available candidates from the outset, if that truly was a main criteria for selection.


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> For the most part, you're right. But if you don't think these schools weight academic prestige, markets (prospective students) and other factors into the equation in addition to their athletic prowess, I think you're selling them short.


Let's just say that the athletic side outweighs the academia. What the hell would Creighton want to know or even cares about anything ISU does? Two totally opposite institutions. Just be thankful we have Dan Bradley at these meetings and not Benjy. God forbid.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

Bally #46 said:


> Let's just say that the athletic side outweighs the academia. What the hell would Creighton want to know or even cares about anything ISU does? Two totally opposite institutions. *Just be thankful we have Dan Bradley at these meetings and not Benjy. God forbid.*



Right on that!  If he had continued, State could not have been competitive in the MIC.  Sad, sad, sad.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

I just spent some time on the Loyola board.  It might be an understatement to say that they are excited about joining The Valley.  That is, if it happens.  They insinuated that UIC might be having some ethics issues in the athletic department.


----------



## Bluethunder

Starting to look more and more like this is official.  First, because it is being reported on multiple reputable sights, and also because no one from Loyola or the MVC has come out to deny it.

Some will be dissapointed with the choice, some will be good with it.  We have to remember that the true measure of this decision won't be measured for many years.  Loyola may or may not be competitive in the league next year and may or may not bring attention and a lot of fans to St. Louis, but again this will have to be measured in years, not months.

I have said it before, I will say it again, many though the conference would die when Tulsa left, and in many ways it has grown stronger and Tulsa has been weaker (in basketball).  Time will tell how this addition will work out.


----------



## Bally #50

Bluethunder said:


> Starting to look more and more like this is official.  First, because it is being reported on multiple reputable sights, and also because no one from Loyola or the MVC has come out to deny it.
> 
> Some will be dissapointed with the choice, some will be good with it.  We have to remember that the true measure of this decision won't be measured for many years.  Loyola may or may not be competitive in the league next year and may or may not bring attention and a lot of fans to St. Louis, but again this will have to be measured in years, not months.
> 
> I have said it before, I will say it again, many though the conference would die when Tulsa left, and in many ways it has grown stronger and Tulsa has been weaker (in basketball).  Time will tell how this addition will work out.



I have felt that they likely were coming in and have no real problem with Loyola. I just don't think we are done yet. One of those reports said there was to be a press conference on Friday and I sure have not read about one yet. Elgin should BE A COMMISSIONER and control this thing so it looks positive, not some unannounced backyard get together. He totally mystifies me. If there are more, do them all together. Make a splash. This guy must have flunked Marketing 101.


----------



## sycamore51

*Loyola in the MVC*

The Chicago Tribune is reporting that Loyola has confirmed that they have accepted an invite from the MVC.


----------



## Bally #50

sycamore51 said:


> The Chicago Tribune is reporting that Loyola has confirmed that they have accepted an invite from the MVC.


Thanks Syc51. I think we can call the Trib a legit source. As I mentioned earlier, is this trickle-down announcement what you think the MVC should be doing? I am beginning to think Elgin is a fricking idiot. Also as I said earlier, I won't be happy if it is ONLY ONE school. We'll see. They are playing Russian roulette if that is all they take.


----------



## ISUCC

from the chicago tribune

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...ri-valley-conference-20130413,0,2427164.story


----------



## IndyTreeFan

ISUCC said:


> from the chicago tribune
> 
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...ri-valley-conference-20130413,0,2427164.story



Puke.  Please tell me they are going add someone who isn't going to be an RPI killer for the whole conference...

Seriously, they were 5-11 in the freaking Horizon League.  That bodes well for their competitiveness in the MVC.  Not.


----------



## Sycamore Proud

ISUCC said:


> from the chicago tribune
> 
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...ri-valley-conference-20130413,0,2427164.story




By Fred Mitchell, Tribune reporter

9:23 p.m. CDT, April 13, 2013

Loyola University has accepted an invitation to join the Missouri Valley Conference, the school confirmed to the Tribune on Saturday.

Sounds authoritative.


----------



## ISUCC

IndyTreeFan said:


> Puke.  Please tell me they are going add someone who isn't going to be an RPI killer for the whole conference...
> 
> Seriously, they were 5-11 in the freaking Horizon League.  That bodes well for their competitiveness in the MVC.  Not.



here's what it does mean though, it means all four Illinois schools will play on Thursday next year in St. Louis! ha!


----------



## Bluethunder

IndyTreeFan said:


> Puke.  Please tell me they are going add someone who isn't going to be an RPI killer for the whole conference...
> 
> Seriously, they were 5-11 in the freaking Horizon League.  That bodes well for their competitiveness in the MVC.  Not.



Lets bring that point up after we play them and if we win.  We all talked about Missouri State being a terrible team and RPI killer, then they beat us.  IF we beat Loyola twice, then you can talk about how they are a drain.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

ISUCC said:


> here's what it does mean though, it means all four Illinois schools will play on Thursday next year in St. Louis! ha!



That's good...:laugh:


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Bluethunder said:


> Lets bring that point up after we play them and if we win.  We all talked about Missouri State being a terrible team and RPI killer, then they beat us.  IF we beat Loyola twice, then you can talk about how they are a drain.



No, that's not true.  Even though we crapped in a few games last season, we actually went out and beat some people.  We finished RPI #72, Loyola was something like #214.  They are a drain, we are not.  I know we are ISU, and that we can't think that we should have an opinion on who is good for the conference, but that's nuts.  Loyola, at present, doesn't help the MVC, by a large margin.  We do.  Get used to it.  That should be the norm for ISU.  We should never accept going back to being a drain on the conference.  And that means we should be concerned that whoever gets added is good for us ALL.


----------



## STATE Fan 95

One good thing is maybe we will be able to recruit a Chicago kid or 2.   He would have the chance to play in his home town so many times a year.


----------



## Bluethunder

IndyTreeFan said:


> No, that's not true.  Even though we crapped in a few games last season, we actually went out and beat some people.  We finished RPI #72, Loyola was something like #214.  They are a drain, we are not.  I know we are ISU, and that we can't think that we should have an opinion on who is good for the conference, but that's nuts.  Loyola, at present, doesn't help the MVC, by a large margin.  We do.  Get used to it.  That should be the norm for ISU.  We should never accept going back to being a drain on the conference.  And that means we should be concerned that whoever gets added is good for us ALL.



Just for comparisons sake, before we beat the tar out of Loyola being invited, what woud there RPI be (or have been), if you replaced the Horizon teams they played with the MVC teams?  How much did their league play a role in the lower RPI?  With a losing record, it isn't going to be great, but I am curious how it would look if you switched that out.

Here is the bottom line, we all knew that whomever was asked was going to get a lukewarm response, at best.  I was never thrilled with most schools on the short lists either, until I started looking at things a little differently.  IMO, too many people are looking at this from the standpoint of next year, and I am trying to look at this in five years, or ten years, etc.

Does Loyola have a large student body to draw from and create a large alumni base?  Yes.  Do they have a decent tradition in basketball? Yes.  Do they have a good location for us to travel to?  Yes. Do they have a good location to recruit from? Yes.  Do they have the money to pour into athletics?  Yes.  Do they have the desire to pour that money into athletics?  Time will tell, but it sure looks that way.  Do they have a realistic chance to be competitive in the Valley within five years?  I believe they do.

When you add all of this up, the conclusion I reach is that there are a lot worse choices.  

From reading their message board, many of their alumni have lamented the fact that in the 90's and early 2000's they had an AD and President who blew off athletics and they are just now coming out from behind that with a new President who has stated a commitment to athletics.  Sound familiar?

As Barbara Hershey stated in Hoosiers (regarding Coach Dale) "give the man a chance"


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Bluethunder said:


> Just for comparisons sake, before we beat the tar out of Loyola being invited, what woud there RPI be (or have been), if you replaced the Horizon teams they played with the MVC teams?  How much did their league play a role in the lower RPI?  With a losing record, it isn't going to be great, but I am curious how it would lok if you switched that out.
> 
> Here is the bottom line, we all knew that whomever was asked was going o get a lukewarm response, at best.  I was never thrilled with most schools on the short lists either, until I started looking at things a little differently.  IMO, too many people are loking at this from the standpoint of next year, and I am trying to look at this in five years, or ten years, etc.
> 
> Does Loyola have a large student body to draw from and create a large alumni base?  Yes.  Do they have a decent tradition in basketball? Yes.  Do they have a good location for us to travel to?  Yes. Do they have a good location to recruit from? Yes.  Do they have the money to pour into athletics?  Yes.  Do they have the desire to pour that money into athletics?  Time will tell, but it sure looks that way.  Do they have a realistic chance to be competitive in the Valley within five years?  I believe they do.
> 
> When you add all of this up, the conclusion I reach is that there are a lot worse choices.
> 
> From reading their message board, many of their alumni have lamented the fact that in the 90's and early 2000's they had an AD and President who blew of athletics and they are just now coming out from behind that with a new President who has stated a commitment to athletics.  Sound familiar?
> 
> As Barbara Hershey stated in Hoosiers (regarding Coach Dale) "give the man a chance"



You're probably right.  They do have some nice positives, but they are going to hurt before they help.  I'm really conflicted.  But you make good points.


----------



## Bally #50

Guys, it's inevitable. If we don't like it now, maybe we will in a year or two. I remember when I was at ISU in the 60's, we played them and I thought that was truly amazing. They have an NCAA basketball Championship folks. They aren't lunch meat. We'll survive. I have almost resolved that UIC might be OK as well, especially looking at what they did on the court last year. Life is not going to end here. We'll live thru this. STAY CALM. 2-4 more games to win is the way I look at it.


----------



## mohoops247

Well now that the Chicago Tribune article has been posted, I think I can finally post about this (I had been asked to keep quiet until it was announced).  It is 100% confirmed that Loyola will be added to the MVC.  The players were told in a meeting around 3:30 Friday.  They were also told that they (Loyola) would be the only school added to the MVC this year.

I am absolutely thrilled with this addition as my brother was a freshman on the team this year.  But I know a lot of you aren't excited about it by most of the posts I've read, so I just want to try to debate some of the points I've seen:

Loyola finished 5-11 in a bad Horizon League: First, the Horizon League is not as crappy of a league as a lot of people seem to think. The league was 12th in RPI, which puts it in the Top 5 mid-major conferences and well ahead of the MAC and OVC. The MVC was just a couple of spots ahead in 9th.  As for the record, 6 of Loyola's conference losses were on shots by the other team with under 5 seconds to play.  The team could have easily finished 11-5 in the conference.

Loyola will be dead weight next year: The team was 15-16 this year, but again 7 of the losses were basically at the horn.  They had an 8 game improvement over the previous season, which was Coach Moser's first.  Moser cleaned house when he was hired, and now has all of 'his guys' in so the improvement should just continue.  The team was the 6th youngest in the nation this year, and started 3 freshmen and 1 sophomore the last 10 games of the year.  They will also be getting the services of Milton Doyle who sat out this year after transferring from Kansas.  And it's not like they didn't win some pretty big games this year either - they won at conference champ Valpo, won at DePaul, demolished Mississippi State (granted, they were not good, but a BCS conference team).

UIC is a better addition than Loyola: Loyola's on-court product is just as good if not better than UIC.  The teams split the season series this year.  And I honestly feel Loyola has a much bigger future potential.

Loyola does nothing to bring up the conference: Loyola doesn't offer baseball at this time, but as bigsportsfan mentioned the Loyola President has said he will add baseball if the conference wants it.  In addition, Loyola's other sports have been strong lately and the school currently has the lead in the conference's All-Sports Champion trophy race.

Loyola averaged just under 2300 fans a game last year and plays in a small gym:  I'll give it to you that attendance has been an issue, but there are very few schools where that isn't the case.  However, Loyola has a large alumni base and good sized student body, so there is potential there.  The move to the MVC should only help by bringing in more marquee teams and some rivals that date back decades (Bradley, Evansville, etc.).  In regards to the gym, it is a great venue that they just completely gutted and remodeled in 2011 (images here). Yes, it only seats 5,000, but to me I'd rather fill a 5,000 seat gym to capacity than have a 10,000+ gym only half full for most games.

Loyola is in the Chicago Market but that means nothing: Now I will give it to you that right now Loyola doesn't have a big foot in the Chicago market (barely a toe), but absolutely none of the teams up there do (including DePaul and Northwestern).  It is definitely a professional sports market.  That being said, that also means that there is potentially room for one of the Chicago teams to stake a claim to being 'the college team' and with Loyola's resources I think they're doing what they can to make that happen.

As Bluethunder pointed out in a post earlier tonight, ISU Athletics were in the same situation as Loyola not too long ago in regards to coming off a terrible administration that put no focus on athletics and nearly killed the athletic program.  Therefore, I think it's too early to get on a school for being a drain and a terrible addition before you give them a chance.


> From reading their message board, many of their alumni have lamented the fact that in the 90's and early 2000's they had an AD and President who blew off athletics and they are just now coming out from behind that with a new President who has stated a commitment to athletics. Sound familiar?


I think most of you will end up being happy with the addition of Loyola over time.


----------



## ISU_TREE_FAN

mohoops247 said:


> Well now that the Chicago Tribune article has been posted, I think I can finally post about this (I had been asked to keep quiet until it was announced).  It is 100% confirmed that Loyola will be added to the MVC.  The players were told in a meeting around 3:30 Friday.  They were also told that they (Loyola) would be the only school added to the MVC this year.
> 
> I am absolutely thrilled with this addition as my brother was a freshman on the team this year.  But I know a lot of you aren't excited about it by most of the posts I've read, so I just want to try to debate some of the points I've seen:
> 
> Loyola finished 5-11 in a bad Horizon League: First, the Horizon League is not as crappy of a league as a lot of people seem to think. The league was 12th in RPI, which puts it in the Top 5 mid-major conferences and well ahead of the MAC and OVC. The MVC was just a couple of spots ahead in 9th.  As for the record, 6 of Loyola's conference losses were on shots by the other team with under 5 seconds to play.  The team could have easily finished 11-5 in the conference.
> 
> Loyola will be dead weight next year: The team was 15-16 this year, but again 7 of the losses were basically at the horn.  They had an 8 game improvement over the previous season, which was Coach Moser's first.  Moser cleaned house when he was hired, and now has all of 'his guys' in so the improvement should just continue.  The team was the 6th youngest in the nation this year, and started 3 freshmen and 1 sophomore the last 10 games of the year.  They will also be getting the services of Milton Doyle who sat out this year after transferring from Kansas.  And it's not like they didn't win some pretty big games this year either - they won at conference champ Valpo, won at DePaul, demolished Mississippi State (granted, they were not good, but a BCS conference team).
> 
> UIC is a better addition than Loyola: Loyola's on-court product is just as good if not better than UIC.  The teams split the season series this year.  And I honestly feel Loyola has a much bigger future potential.
> 
> Loyola does nothing to bring up the conference: Loyola doesn't offer baseball at this time, but as bigsportsfan mentioned the Loyola President has said he will add baseball if the conference wants it.  In addition, Loyola's other sports have been strong lately and the school currently has the lead in the conference's All-Sports Champion trophy race.
> 
> Loyola averaged just under 2300 fans a game last year and plays in a small gym:  I'll give it to you that attendance has been an issue, but there are very few schools where that isn't the case.  However, Loyola has a large alumni base and good sized student body, so there is potential there.  The move to the MVC should only help by bringing in more marquee teams and some rivals that date back decades (Bradley, Evansville, etc.).  In regards to the gym, it is a great venue that they just completely gutted and remodeled in 2011 (images here). Yes, it only seats 5,000, but to me I'd rather fill a 5,000 seat gym to capacity than have a 10,000+ gym only half full for most games.
> 
> Loyola is in the Chicago Market but that means nothing: Now I will give it to you that right now Loyola doesn't have a big foot in the Chicago market (barely a toe), but absolutely none of the teams up there do (including DePaul and Northwestern).  It is definitely a professional sports market.  That being said, that also means that there is potentially room for one of the Chicago teams to stake a claim to being 'the college team' and with Loyola's resources I think they're doing what they can to make that happen.
> 
> As Bluethunder pointed out in a post earlier tonight, ISU Athletics were in the same situation as Loyola not too long ago in regards to coming off a terrible administration that put no focus on athletics and nearly killed the athletic program.  Therefore, I think it's too early to get on a school for being a drain and a terrible addition before you give them a chance.
> 
> I think most of you will end up being happy with the addition of Loyola over time.



Good post...........thanks........and no doubt a "full 5000" is louder and a much better homecourt advantage than a "1/2 full 10,000" especially when they are scattered around the 10,000.


----------



## blueblazer

mohoops247 said:


> Well now that the Chicago Tribune article has been posted, I think I can finally post about this (I had been asked to keep quiet until it was announced).  It is 100% confirmed that Loyola will be added to the MVC.  The players were told in a meeting around 3:30 Friday.  They were also told that they (Loyola) would be the only school added to the MVC this year.
> 
> I am absolutely thrilled with this addition as my brother was a freshman on the team this year.  But I know a lot of you aren't excited about it by most of the posts I've read, so I just want to try to debate some of the points I've seen:
> 
> Loyola finished 5-11 in a bad Horizon League: First, the Horizon League is not as crappy of a league as a lot of people seem to think. The league was 12th in RPI, which puts it in the Top 5 mid-major conferences and well ahead of the MAC and OVC. The MVC was just a couple of spots ahead in 9th.  As for the record, 6 of Loyola's conference losses were on shots by the other team with under 5 seconds to play.  The team could have easily finished 11-5 in the conference.
> 
> Loyola will be dead weight next year: The team was 15-16 this year, but again 7 of the losses were basically at the horn.  They had an 8 game improvement over the previous season, which was Coach Moser's first.  Moser cleaned house when he was hired, and now has all of 'his guys' in so the improvement should just continue.  The team was the 6th youngest in the nation this year, and started 3 freshmen and 1 sophomore the last 10 games of the year.  They will also be getting the services of Milton Doyle who sat out this year after transferring from Kansas.  And it's not like they didn't win some pretty big games this year either - they won at conference champ Valpo, won at DePaul, demolished Mississippi State (granted, they were not good, but a BCS conference team).
> 
> UIC is a better addition than Loyola: Loyola's on-court product is just as good if not better than UIC.  The teams split the season series this year.  And I honestly feel Loyola has a much bigger future potential.
> 
> Loyola does nothing to bring up the conference: Loyola doesn't offer baseball at this time, but as bigsportsfan mentioned the Loyola President has said he will add baseball if the conference wants it.  In addition, Loyola's other sports have been strong lately and the school currently has the lead in the conference's All-Sports Champion trophy race.
> 
> Loyola averaged just under 2300 fans a game last year and plays in a small gym:  I'll give it to you that attendance has been an issue, but there are very few schools where that isn't the case.  However, Loyola has a large alumni base and good sized student body, so there is potential there.  The move to the MVC should only help by bringing in more marquee teams and some rivals that date back decades (Bradley, Evansville, etc.).  In regards to the gym, it is a great venue that they just completely gutted and remodeled in 2011 (images here). Yes, it only seats 5,000, but to me I'd rather fill a 5,000 seat gym to capacity than have a 10,000+ gym only half full for most games.
> 
> Loyola is in the Chicago Market but that means nothing: Now I will give it to you that right now Loyola doesn't have a big foot in the Chicago market (barely a toe), but absolutely none of the teams up there do (including DePaul and Northwestern).  It is definitely a professional sports market.  That being said, that also means that there is potentially room for one of the Chicago teams to stake a claim to being 'the college team' and with Loyola's resources I think they're doing what they can to make that happen.
> 
> As Bluethunder pointed out in a post earlier tonight, ISU Athletics were in the same situation as Loyola not too long ago in regards to coming off a terrible administration that put no focus on athletics and nearly killed the athletic program.  Therefore, I think it's too early to get on a school for being a drain and a terrible addition before you give them a chance.
> 
> I think most of you will end up being happy with the addition of Loyola over time.




I was hoping your brother would land at ISU, I think we missed the boat on him


----------



## Patriot_Sycamore

blueblazer said:


> I was hoping your brother would land at ISU, I think we missed the boat on him



No thinking, we missed it for sure.


----------



## BrokerZ

IndyTreeFan said:


> You're probably right.  They do have some nice positives, but they are going to hurt before they help.  I'm really conflicted.  But you make good points.



This pretty much sums it up for me. I can see some long-term positives out of this and I can also see some possible short-term negatives. No matter what, we weren't replacing Creighton with a Creighton. Now, color me unimpressed if this is all we do and get stuck on the "10 teams is a good number thing."


----------



## BlueBleeder

Patriot_Sycamore said:


> No thinking, we missed it for sure.



ABSOLUTELY!  I was very upset when we didn't go after him.  You can't let a guy with that kind of size and shooting ability get out from you own back yard.  I guess there isn't anything we can do about it now...coulda woulda shoulda.  Hopefully he doesn't light us up the next few years but I have a feeling he will at some point.


----------



## Bluethunder

I think Loyola will raise their attendance tremendously next year.  They will probably sell out the Bradley, Southern Illinois, Illinois State games because those teams have many alums in Chicago and will come to see the game.

As I stated previously, this addition will be measured years from now, not today, but looking at it on paper and where Loyola could be in a few years, I can't argue with this addition.  I will leave that for others :lol:

I just hope they bring at least a few hundred to Arch Madness!


----------



## BlueSycamore

Bluethunder said:


> I think Loyola will raise their attendance tremendously next year.  They will probably sell out the Bradley, Southern Illinois, Illinois State games because those teams have many alums in Chicago and will come to see the game.
> 
> As I stated previously, this addition will be measured years from now, not today, but looking at it on paper and where Loyola could be in a few years, I can't argue with this addition.  I will leave that for others :lol:
> 
> I just hope they bring at least a few hundred to Arch Madness!



No doubt several less than the thousands that normally came from Omaha, but more than 100 but less than 200 will outdraw the usual Sycamore contingent I believe?


----------



## BlueSycamore

BrokerZ said:


> This pretty much sums it up for me. I can see some long-term positives out of this and I can also see some possible short-term negatives. No matter what, we weren't replacing Creighton with a Creighton. Now, color me unimpressed if this is all we do and get stuck on the "10 teams is a good number thing."



So did anyone expect Louisville to jump back in the Valley ???????????????????????????????????????


----------



## JamesHat

Maybe we can sell them our 70's orange and yellow upper level seats for their arena, they would go with the color pallet they've decorated with.


----------



## ISUCC

it will be only Loyola-Chicago coming to MVC in 2013


----------



## SycamoreFan317

mohoops247 said:


> Well now that the Chicago Tribune article has been posted, I think I can finally post about this (I had been asked to keep quiet until it was announced).  It is 100% confirmed that Loyola will be added to the MVC.  The players were told in a meeting around 3:30 Friday.  They were also told that they (Loyola) would be the only school added to the MVC this year.
> 
> I am absolutely thrilled with this addition as my brother was a freshman on the team this year.  But I know a lot of you aren't excited about it by most of the posts I've read, so I just want to try to debate some of the points I've seen:
> 
> Loyola finished 5-11 in a bad Horizon League: First, the Horizon League is not as crappy of a league as a lot of people seem to think. The league was 12th in RPI, which puts it in the Top 5 mid-major conferences and well ahead of the MAC and OVC. The MVC was just a couple of spots ahead in 9th.  As for the record, 6 of Loyola's conference losses were on shots by the other team with under 5 seconds to play.  The team could have easily finished 11-5 in the conference.
> 
> Loyola will be dead weight next year: The team was 15-16 this year, but again 7 of the losses were basically at the horn.  They had an 8 game improvement over the previous season, which was Coach Moser's first.  Moser cleaned house when he was hired, and now has all of 'his guys' in so the improvement should just continue.  The team was the 6th youngest in the nation this year, and started 3 freshmen and 1 sophomore the last 10 games of the year.  They will also be getting the services of Milton Doyle who sat out this year after transferring from Kansas.  And it's not like they didn't win some pretty big games this year either - they won at conference champ Valpo, won at DePaul, demolished Mississippi State (granted, they were not good, but a BCS conference team).
> 
> UIC is a better addition than Loyola: Loyola's on-court product is just as good if not better than UIC.  The teams split the season series this year.  And I honestly feel Loyola has a much bigger future potential.
> 
> Loyola does nothing to bring up the conference: Loyola doesn't offer baseball at this time, but as bigsportsfan mentioned the Loyola President has said he will add baseball if the conference wants it.  In addition, Loyola's other sports have been strong lately and the school currently has the lead in the conference's All-Sports Champion trophy race.
> 
> Loyola averaged just under 2300 fans a game last year and plays in a small gym:  I'll give it to you that attendance has been an issue, but there are very few schools where that isn't the case.  However, Loyola has a large alumni base and good sized student body, so there is potential there.  The move to the MVC should only help by bringing in more marquee teams and some rivals that date back decades (Bradley, Evansville, etc.).  In regards to the gym, it is a great venue that they just completely gutted and remodeled in 2011 (images here). Yes, it only seats 5,000, but to me I'd rather fill a 5,000 seat gym to capacity than have a 10,000+ gym only half full for most games.
> 
> Loyola is in the Chicago Market but that means nothing: Now I will give it to you that right now Loyola doesn't have a big foot in the Chicago market (barely a toe), but absolutely none of the teams up there do (including DePaul and Northwestern).  It is definitely a professional sports market.  That being said, that also means that there is potentially room for one of the Chicago teams to stake a claim to being 'the college team' and with Loyola's resources I think they're doing what they can to make that happen.
> 
> As Bluethunder pointed out in a post earlier tonight, ISU Athletics were in the same situation as Loyola not too long ago in regards to coming off a terrible administration that put no focus on athletics and nearly killed the athletic program.  Therefore, I think it's too early to get on a school for being a drain and a terrible addition before you give them a chance.
> 
> I think most of you will end up being happy with the addition of Loyola over time.



You didn't address the biggest reason in my book and that is the uneven playing field in MONEY! Check the early posts on this topic and I mentioned that Loyola was on their way back, on the court, then I did the research of finances and that is where I flipped to the other side. Loyola has more money available to them than Creighton, this is a monster in the making and we will get squashed like road kill. Our alumni, that give, do not have pockets deep enough to compete one to one add football to the mix and we are screwed. I say we need to send out the letters of inquiry to like schools and see if there is any interest of starting a new conference. Last of all, does anybody really think that WSU won't be gone at the first invite?


----------



## ISUCC

SycamoreFan317 said:


> You didn't address the biggest reason in my book and that is the uneven playing field in MONEY! Check the early posts on this topic and I mentioned that Loyola was on their way back, on the court, then I did the research of finances and that is where I flipped to the other side. Loyola has more money available to them than Creighton, this is a monster in the making and we will get squashed like road kill. Our alumni, that give, do not have pockets deep enough to compete one to one add football to the mix and we are screwed. I say we need to send out the letters of inquiry to like schools and see if there is any interest of starting a new conference. *Last of all, does anybody really think that WSU won't be gone at the first invite?*



WSU has one shot, and one shot only, at leaving, that is to the MWC, and w/o football I just can not see it happening. Big 12, no, Pac 12, no, A-10, no, the MWC is their only option. If they're offered though, I agree, they're gone.


----------



## Bally #50

ISUCC said:


> WSU has one shot, and one shot only, at leaving, that is to the MWC, and w/o football I just can not see it happening. Big 12, no, Pac 12, no, A-10, no, the MWC is their only option. If they're offered though, I agree, they're gone.



Your confidence is admirable but what says that the MWC is their ONLY option. Conference USA has non-football schools among others. I also would like to hear, why I have your attention, why you are so confident that Loyola is the only one the MVC is looking at? You must know something that most of us do not. Are you in favor of a 10-school conference and if so, what is your logic behind that, especially when you know that WSU could be leaving and at least a couple others have been rumored to want to jump ship?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bally #46 said:


> Your confidence is admirable but what says that the MWC is their ONLY option. Conference USA has non-football schools among others. I also would like to hear, why I have your attention, why you are so confident that Loyola is the only one the MVC is looking at? You must know something that most of us do not. Are you in favor of a 10-school conference and if so, what is your logic behind that, especially when you know that WSU could be leaving and at least a couple others have been rumored to want to jump ship?



Money and scheduling. Right now, the home and home scheduling setup is perfect IMO. If we went to 12 teams, we'd have to move to an unbalanced scheduling setup. Further, splitting what little the MVC gets between 2 more schools when those 2 schools are unlikely to earn for the conference may not make sense.


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> Money and scheduling. Right now, the home and home scheduling setup is perfect IMO. If we went to 12 teams, we'd have to move to an unbalanced scheduling setup. Further, splitting what little the MVC gets between 2 more schools when those 2 schools are unlikely to earn for the conference may not make sense.


It seems logical but getting caught with your pants down could have a lot more ramifications. I am amazed some of you are thinking that way to be honest. The Big 10 certainly didn't suffer with 12 (Pac 12 and Big 12 either -- note: I know they are bigger now) and were progressive enough to know that BIGGER is better. The trend is certainly heading that way to begin with and with two more talking about leaving, then what do you do with EIGHT? I just don't get your logic, especially because other BCS conferences made it work. It's called "roll with the punches"!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bally #46 said:


> It seems logical but getting caught with your pants down could have a lot more ramifications. I am amazed some of you are thinking that way to be honest. The Big 10 certainly didn't suffer with 12 (Pac 12 and Big 12 either -- note: I know they are bigger now) and were progressive enough to know that BIGGER is better. The trend is certainly heading that way to begin with and with two more talking about leaving, then what do you do with EIGHT? I just don't get your logic, especially because other BCS conferences made it work. It's called "roll with the punches"!


We're not a BCS conference and you can't compare the Big Ten and the MVC. They get $20m+ per school from the BTN and every new market they get into they negotiate to have their channel put into the basic cable tier. I believe our league media deal was $400k total with each school getting about $35k out of it.

I don't get the getting caught with your pants down line? Creighton left and we replaced them in just a little over a month, no? Additionally, on their campus visits, I'm sure the conference took notes so they know who they'd invite next if another school were to jump elsewhere. I'm sure they now have a rank and file for future membership. 

Lastly, I don't think you or most of the Valley fans are placing enough though into the Ed O'Bannon lawsuit. If the NCAA loses, it's the smaller conferences that will lose big. We can't go splitting that already tiny pot. If you have a can of soup and have to split it between 10 people, you're still going to be hungry. If you suddenly have to split it between 12, you're going to be starving.


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> We're not a BCS conference and you can't compare the Big Ten and the MVC. They get $20m+ per school from the BTN and every new market they get into they negotiate to have their channel put into the basic cable tier. I believe our league media deal was $400k total with each school getting about $35k out of it.


We would NOT be expanding for the money, we would be expanding to survive. You guys are sounding like a bunch of old ladies here. It's time to get off our ass and think outside the box. How many conferences are sitting pat with TEN schools? Hardly any. I thought I'd like to stay at 10 originally and do nothing about all of this but it is OBVIOUS it is not going to work. Get more schools, divide into divisions and make it work like almost every other conference out there is doing NOW. Sitting on our tail is not going to work and I am amazed you guys all of a sudden clam up like a shy kid trying to find a prom date.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bally #46 said:


> We would NOT be expanding for the money, we would be expanding to survive. You guys are sounding like a bunch of old ladies here. It's time to get off our ass and think outside the box. How many conferences are sitting pat with TEN schools? Hardly any. I thought I'd like to stay at 10 originally and do nothing about all of this but it is OBVIOUS it is not going to work. Get more schools, divide into divisions and make it work like almost every other conference out there is doing NOW. Sitting on our tail is not going to work and I am amazed you guys all of a sudden clam up like a shy kid trying to find a prom date.


Pretty much every single conference that isn't a football-based conference? Unless I'm missing something, only the major BCS conferences are above 10 right now. Am I missing some?

As an aside, this is one of the reasons I was so interested in unifying the conference or even possibly starting a new conference with like minded institutions -- I'd prefer a conference where all teams had football. I think that is the most marketable option in the long run.


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Nevermind Bob, I see the ones you're talking about now. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–13_NCAA_conference_realignment

That said, as I mentioned above, almost every single one of those conferences offer football. That seems to be the sticking point and possibly the limitation of the Valley. If the Valley takes additional teams, I'd hope they go after schools that have football programs and could also join the MVFC, or they should do what the OVC does and unify the conference and have a couple basketball schools that don't have football like Belmont, etc.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Exactly what is the sticking point for unifying the MVC and the MVFC?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> Exactly what is the sticking point for unifying the MVC and the MVFC?



I'd imagine because the two are extremely different in membership base so it would make it impossible to get the required number of votes? From reading around the Valley boards, it took 7 votes to get Loyola in so you could easily see you couldn't reach quorum in voting. 

Dual Members
Illinois State    
Indiana State 
Missouri State
Northern Iowa
Southern Illinois 

MVC-only Members
Bradley 
Drake 
Evansville
Loyola
Wichita State

MVFC-only Members
North Dakota State
South Dakota
South Dakota State
Western Illinois
Youngstown State


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> Nevermind Bob, I see the ones you're talking about now.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010–13_NCAA_conference_realignment
> 
> That said, as I mentioned above, almost every single one of those conferences offer football. That seems to be the sticking point and possibly the limitation of the Valley. If the Valley takes additional teams, I'd hope they go after schools that have football programs and could also join the MVFC, or they should do what the OVC does and unify the conference and have a couple basketball schools that don't have football like Belmont, etc.



Man, you know I am with you there. I want an all-sports conference all the way. I actually think, in the end, we want the the same thing. It's just how we'd get there that's different. Like we all seem to say now, it is what it is. Having just 10 is trying to buck the trend and I don't think it works anymore, particularly with other Valley schools talking about bailing. The MVC needs to be pro-active and in my opinion, they a failing miserably. 6 months ago, I could care less about Elgin and thought he was probably an OK commish. Now I think the total opposite. I never heard back from ISUCC on why he is so sure that they are looking to stay at 10. He acted like he knows that as a fact and I would like to hear where he has heard it from. I only question it because that is NOT what I am hearing.


----------



## ISUCC

Bally #46 said:


> Man, you know I am with you there. I want an all-sports conference all the way. I actually think, in the end, we want the the same thing. It's just how we'd get there that's different. Like we all seem to say now, it is what it is. Having just 10 is trying to buck the trend and I don't think it works anymore, particularly with other Valley schools talking about bailing. The MVC needs to be pro-active and in my opinion, they a failing miserably. 6 months ago, I could care less about Elgin and thought he was probably an OK commish. Now I think the total opposite. I never heard back from ISUCC on why he is so sure that they are looking to stay at 10. He acted like he knows that as a fact and I would like to hear where he has heard it from. I only question it because that is NOT what I am hearing.



I just know they're staying at 10 for the next year, in 2014 they may very well add more teams, I have no idea? But for 2013-2014 there will be 10 members.


----------



## Bally #50

ISUCC said:


> I just know they're staying at 10 for the next year, in 2014 they may very well add more teams, I have no idea? But for 2013-2014 there will be 10 members.



Thanks, CC. I was told there will be more. We'll see.


----------



## ISUCC

Bally #46 said:


> Thanks, CC. I was told there will be more. We'll see.



I agree, there may be more, but from what the Loyola players were told, there was only going to be one school added in 2013. So we'll have to wait until next April to see if more are added? There is SO much that could happen between now and then.


----------



## Bally #50

ISUCC said:


> I agree, there may be more, but from what the Loyola players were told, there was only going to be one school added in 2013. So we'll have to wait until next April to see if more are added? There is SO much that could happen between now and then.



I think sitting on our ass is ludicrous, that's all. The trend is more and if we don't move quick enough, we'll be dead meat when we have to have more. My contact is with the university so we'll see who is right. As I said above, you guys seem all for staying at 10. I say it is Russian roulette and we will be too late to expand when we have to. The tree will already be picked. UNLESS, they have something totally in mind and they aren't talking. We'll see who is talking to the right people. Interesting chat, nevertheless.


----------



## SycamoreFan317

Here is the word:

s
 Todd Golden ‏@TribStarTodd 2m
ISU AD Ron Prettyman told me exceeding the current 10-team MVC membership has been discussed, but it is just discussion at this point.

and

Todd Golden ‏@TribStarTodd 11m
MVC presidents voted Friday. At this time, Loyola is expected to be the only member added for 2013-14. http://tribstar.com/sports/x2094911505/Second-City-in-the-Valley-Loyola-joins-the-MVC …
Expand   Reply  Retweet  Favorite   More


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Here is Golden's article.

http://tribstar.com/sports/x2094911505/Second-City-in-the-Valley-Loyola-joins-the-MVC


----------



## Bally #50

That doesn't change my opinion at all. Sounds final for 13-14 but we'll see. Ever played poker before?


----------



## Bluethunder

Bally #46 said:


> That doesn't change my opinion at all. Sounds final for 13-14 but we'll see. Ever played poker before?



Yes, and I suck at it, which is why I won't weigh in on adding more teams or not!

I did find it interesting that Prettyman said "most" of the Valley members were good with Loyola.  I bet WSU was one that didn't like the choice, wonder if there was one more?


----------



## Jason Svoboda

Bluethunder said:


> Yes, and I suck at it, which is why I won't weigh in on adding more teams or not!
> 
> I did find it interesting that Prettyman said "most" of the Valley members were good with Loyola.  I bet WSU was one that didn't like the choice, wonder if there was one more?



I'd be willing to be it passed 7-2 with Missouri State and Wichita State voting no.


----------



## IndyTreeFan

Jason Svoboda said:


> I'd be willing to be it passed 7-2 with Missouri State and Wichita State voting no.



I can kinda understand.  Another eastern school.  I bet if we go to 12, one or both of the new schools will be west.  I bet we take Oral Bob.  They just make sense.  We could go for Denver, too, or Belmont/Murray State.  I would take Oral Bob and Murray.  Geographic balance and one public, one private.  Of course, there will need to be a corresponding invite to the MVFC.  

There, I've got the plan.  Someone make it happen!!!


----------



## Jason Svoboda

IndyTreeFan said:


> I can kinda understand.  Another eastern school.  I bet if we go to 12, one or both of the new schools will be west.  I bet we take Oral Bob.  They just make sense.  We could go for Denver, too, or Belmont/Murray State.  I would take Oral Bob and Murray.  Geographic balance and one public, one private.  Of course, there will need to be a corresponding invite to the MVFC.
> 
> There, I've got the plan.  Someone make it happen!!!



I dunno. I think with both Wichita State and Missouri State being vocal about wanting to move, they keep it in the Eastern Midwest area which makes sense. I'd want a long term agreement with a huge buyout before I'd be willing to take a western school because if either jumped as they've talked about, those remaining western schools would be cost albatrosses.

My plan, and this is a wild one, would be to get the 5 dual member schools together to see if there would be interest to form a new conference with a 15-20 year goal to go FBS. Not sure UNI would bite because of their financial troubles, but both Illinois State and Missouri State are already looking at FBS. Then you scour Midwestern FBS schools to see if anyone wants to buy into that vision and if so, you work together as a conference to transition to FBS. 

Don't get my wrong, I like the Valley, but I really dislike the separate conferences. I think that it fractures and severely limits membership as well as future membership. I also don't like, as I've stated multiple times in this thread, the different playing fields because of sports offerings.


----------



## Bally #50

Jason Svoboda said:


> I'd be willing to be it passed 7-2 with Missouri State and Wichita State voting no.



How coincidental if that is actually true......the two schools that are making the most noise about leaving the Valley.


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## agrinut

IndyTreeFan said:


> Exactly what is the sticking point for unifying the MVC and the MVFC?



Don't know if this is true or not but I was told the non MVC schools said they would not allow a football school into the MVFC.


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## agrinut

Jason Svoboda said:


> I'd be willing to be it passed 7-2 with Missouri State and Wichita State voting no.



Saw our AD tonight, he said it passed 8-1 with UNI being the no vote.


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## Jason Svoboda

agrinut said:


> Saw our AD tonight, he said it passed 8-1 with UNI being the no vote.


Wow. Shocker fans are going to go bonkers.


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## ISUCC

agrinut said:


> Saw our AD tonight, he said it passed 8-1 with UNI being the no vote.



I thought that may have been the case, UNI was really wanting Denver from what I heard.


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## Sycamore Proud

Jason Svoboda said:


> Wow.



Agree with you.  That was a total surprise.


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## ISUCC

agrinut said:


> Don't know if this is true or not but I was told the non MVC schools said they would not allow a football school into the MVFC.



did you mean to say the non MVC football playing schools? i.e. Bradley, UE, Drake, WSU


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## agrinut

ISUCC said:


> did you mean to say the non MVC football playing schools? i.e. Bradley, UE, Drake, WSU



No I mean USD, SDSU, NDSU, WIU, and YSU


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## ISUCC

agrinut said:


> No I mean USD, SDSU, NDSU, WIU, and YSU



ok, I see what you meant. Makes sense. I can see WIU going to the OVC and YSU heading east sometime soon, within a year or two.


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## Jason Svoboda

ISUCC said:


> ok, I see what you meant. Makes sense. I can see WIU going to the OVC and YSU heading east sometime soon, within a year or two.



I've read the Youngstown State boards and their fans state they're strapped for cash. Was a bit shocked by that myself.


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## bent20

Jason Svoboda said:


> I've read the Youngstown State boards and their fans state they're strapped for cash. Was a bit shocked by that myself.



I thought they were going to move up to become an FBS powerhouse. At least that was the cry from their fans a few years ago.


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## SycamoreFan317

Jason Svoboda said:


> I dunno. I think with both Wichita State and Missouri State being vocal about wanting to move, they keep it in the Eastern Midwest area which makes sense. I'd want a long term agreement with a huge buyout before I'd be willing to take a western school because if either jumped as they've talked about, those remaining western schools would be cost albatrosses.
> 
> *My plan, and this is a wild one, would be to get the 5 dual member schools together to see if there would be interest to form a new conference with a 15-20 year goal to go FBS. Not sure UNI would bite because of their financial troubles, but both Illinois State and Missouri State are already looking at FBS. Then you scour Midwestern FBS schools to see if anyone wants to buy into that vision and if so, you work together as a conference to transition to FBS. *
> 
> Don't get my wrong, I like the Valley, but I really dislike the separate conferences. I think that it fractures and severely limits membership as well as future membership. I also don't like, as I've stated multiple times in this thread, the different playing fields because of sports offerings.



You and I are on the same page, anybody else like this idea or have a better one.


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## BrokerZ

At least we got the best of the Loyola's!!!


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## DyedBlue

Really.   I like Loyola of Chicago as a reasonable pickup for the MVC with the potential for improved coverage for the conference in Chicago and maybe the conference tourney in Chicago on occasion  BUT Loyola of Maryland is the defending National Champion in Lacrosse.  How many team national titles has the whole MVC won in the past 15 years?


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## Fiji Bill 72

*Loyola and the MVC*

I am one who is not so upset about Loyola joining the MVC. I think additional media exposure in the Chicago market is good for all in the conference. However, after reading the post yesterday, I went to the Ramblers' website. NOTHING indicating they were switching conferences was there. I would have thought it would have been a major story.


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## BrokerZ

DyedBlue said:


> Really.   I like Loyola of Chicago as a reasonable pickup for the MVC with the potential for improved coverage for the conference in Chicago and maybe the conference tourney in Chicago on occasion  BUT Loyola of Maryland is the defending National Champion in Lacrosse.  How many team national titles has the whole MVC won in the past 15 years?



Is this a serious question?  I'm assuming this is in response to my joke about getting the best of the Loyola's?  Lacrosse isn't even a sport played in the MVC.

I guess I'll say North Dakota State's back-to-back National Championship's probably count for something since we're talking about sports that don't apply to the MVC.


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## Jason Svoboda

Fiji Bill 72 said:


> I am one who is not so upset about Loyola joining the MVC. I think additional media exposure in the Chicago market is good for all in the conference. However, after reading the post yesterday, I went to the Ramblers' website. NOTHING indicating they were switching conferences was there. I would have thought it would have been a major story.


Go back through the thread and check some of the links. Friday press conference is the rumor right now to announce, so I'd imagine they won't have anything on their official sites until it has been announced publicly.


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## 4Q_iu

Bally #46 said:


> Your confidence is admirable but what says that the MWC is their ONLY option. *Conference USA has non-football schools among others.* I also would like to hear, why I have your attention, why you are so confident that Loyola is the only one the MVC is looking at? You must know something that most of us do not. Are you in favor of a 10-school conference and if so, what is your logic behind that, especially when you know that WSU could be leaving and at least a couple others have been rumored to want to jump ship?



Exactly which C-USA schools are you thinking of?   Every C-USA school I research plays football.    Unless you're dragging in the affliate members, which aren't exactly true members of any conference.


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## TreeTop

Getting very close to it being official...

http://espn.go.com/chicago/mens-col...ts-invitation-join-missouri-valley-conference


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## Kneepad

I like it. Loyola is a great school.


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## Jason Svoboda

> Chicago area alumni: The Missouri Valley Conference will officially announce that Loyola University Chicago will be joining the league. Alumni, friends and Sycamore fans are invited to join the MVC for this announcement on Friday, April 19 at 11 a.m. (CDT) at Gentile Arena in downtown Chicago.


From the Alumni Association.


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## Gotta Hav

I went over and read their sports message board....I'll say this, they are pumped up about being in the M V C!!!


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## ISUCC

another good read about Loyola's choice to be added to the MVC, Jason, I know you like the football schools, but as suspected, they were never given a thought. 

MVC presidents couldn’t get excited enough even to consider visiting the Dakotas, thank God. Nor were they sufficiently intrigued by Denver or a crazy notion to return to Texas; the league having endured long-ago misguided expansions to Houston, North Texas State and West Texas State, which has changed its name and no longer competes in Division I. 

http://www.pjstar.com/sports/wessler/x1431012745/Wessler-Don-t-pan-Loyola-plan-yet?zc_p=0


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## Sycamore Proud

Thanks for the link ISUCC.  It is a good read.  And one paragraph is a cause for concern.

 Chicago is a pro-sports town. College basketball in the city is not only an afterthought, it’s terrible. Loyola’s program is virtually invisible. At the Friday news conference to welcome LUC to the MVC, _newspaper reporters from the Tribune and Sun-Times attended,* but radio and TV outlets did not*_.
Next  »	
1 | 2

It makes little difference whether it's the 3rd largest TV market in the country if the programing is not available to the viewers.  There is no need for panic, but it certainly speaks of the road that lies ahead.  It appears anyone thinking that The Valley gets a fat TV contract because of the Chicago market is living a dream.
.


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## ISUCC

more changes, Oakland will take Loyola's place in the Horizon League tomorrow. 

http://www.freep.com/article/20130506/SPORTS08/305060097/oakland-horizon-league


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## Bluethunder

Only took the Horizon League how long?  Complain all you want about Elgin and the Valley leadership trust, but at least it isnt the braintrust of the Horizon League.

If the HL is smart, they should go after Northern Kentucky next.


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## bent20

Five years later and Loyola is your 2018 MVC champs with a 28-5 record. Meanwhile, we're coming off our fourth straight losing record. Which team is hurting the MVC's prestige again???


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