2010/2011 vs 2019/2020 Roster

[skdent1414]

Let’s compare the roster of our last tourney team vs what we have now. This is to spark some off season convo so please join in. You can break it down by head to head matchups, or as a team. I have paired up players based on similar size and positions. Let me know what you all think.

Kitchell 6’10 225 Kessinger 6’8 230
Martin 6’8. 220 Brinkmeyer 6’9 215
Walker 6’8 250 Agbo 6’8 280
Mahurin 6’8 185 LaRavia 6’8 220
Doluony 6’8 195 T Williams 6’7 240
Kelly 6’6. 185 C Barnes 6’6 215
Richard 6’5 215 C Williams 6’5 210
Odum 6’4 170 J Barnes 5’11 155
Printy 6’4 185 Neese 6’4 190
Carter 6’4 195 Bacote 6’3 175
Lathan. 6’3 205 Key 6’2 205
McWhorter 6’2 185 Hankins 6’4 195
Lu. Eitel 6’2 185 Washington 6’3 210
Lo. Eitel. 6’2 180 Martin 6’0 180

 

[sycamorebacker]

I have '20 team as +7 head-to-head based on ONLY talent. Definitely NOT the whole picture. '11 PG is a big +.
'20 has more handles, quicker at 3-5 positions and more than 1 special player.

 

[skdent1414]

I have '20 team as +7 head-to-head based on ONLY talent. Definitely NOT the whole picture. '11 PG is a big +.
'20 has more handles, quicker at 3-5 positions and more than 1 special player.

I would have to agree with you. Of course it’s difficult because we haven’t seen some of these freshmen and redshirts play. And you are taking freshman JO over senior JB with a big +? I’m not saying you are wrong. But that one is closer in my eyes. I’m probably taking JB with the plus here.

 

[sycamorebacker]

I would have to agree with you. Of course it’s difficult because we haven’t seen some of these freshmen and redshirts play. And you are taking freshman JO over senior JB with a big +? I’m not saying you are wrong. But that one is closer in my eyes. I’m probably taking JB with the plus here.

I didn't consider class because of unknown development and to keep it simple. Only talent.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

Let’s compare the roster of our last tourney team vs what we have now. This is to spark some off season convo so please join in. You can break it down by head to head matchups, or as a team. I have paired up players based on similar size and positions. Let me know what you all think.

Kitchell 6’10 225 Kessinger 6’8 230
Martin 6’8. 220 Brinkmeyer 6’9 215
Walker 6’8 250 Agbo 6’8 280
Mahurin 6’8 185 LaRavia 6’8 220
Doluony 6’8 195 T Williams 6’7 240
Kelly 6’6. 185 C Barnes 6’6 215
Richard 6’5 215 C Williams 6’5 210
Odum 6’4 170 J Barnes 5’11 155
Printy 6’4 185 Neese 6’4 190
Carter 6’4 195 Bacote 6’3 175
Lathan. 6’3 205 Key 6’2 205
McWhorter 6’2 185 Hankins 6’4 195
Lu. Eitel 6’2 185 Washington 6’3 210
Lo. Eitel. 6’2 180 Martin 6’0 180

Kessinger - toss up. Kessinger has been asked to do a lot in his career. He's battle tested.

Brinkmeyer - although Martin was well liked and a + shot blocker I feel like he never lived up to his full potential. Give me Brink - simply because Martin didn't set the bar that high.

Walker - simply because he played the 3 best games of his career in St. Louis to help us make the NCAA tournament. If Agbo could give us something close to what Walker was able to we will be in good shape.

LaRavia - because I've seen him. I'm not sure he will be near the shooter that RJ was... But LaRavia is a better athlete and is a more versatile two way player.

T. Williams - another low bar here. T. Williams is going to be a good player for us - might take a little time to develop but I think he's skilled enough that he can figure it out.

Kelly - probably not even close or a fair one to compare. I'd probably compare Kelly to C. Williams since the two both transferred here from Iowa and have similar frames. I'd still give the nod to Kelly by a wide margin.

Richard - I've always thought that people forget how good Richard was because of how he ended his career off the court. On the court he was a heck of a two way player for us. Williams has to dig deeper into his soul for us this year... I will go as far to say - if anyone is taking C. Williams over Richard here they are either being dishonest with themselves or really just have no idea what they are talking about.

Odum - it's not about physical ability or basketball talent for me. It's about the one thing that has been lacking since Odum left. LEADERSHIP. Odum was everything you can want and more in a PG - the ultimate floor general. JB has been more concerned with himself and how his box score looks.

Neese - toss up here... JP hit some big shots for us and always seemed to play within himself. Meanwhile - Neese hasn't seen a shot he didn't like and possesses a more aggressive even wreak-less sometimes game play. I guess it depends on what you like but give me Neese based on that and his higher ceiling.

Carter - Ultimate glue guy... Hit a lot of big shots and did a lot of things on both sides of the floor that won basketball games. Never one of my favorite players and always a bit over-rated (imo) by our fan base. But you go Carter here 9 times out of 10.

Lathan - in a photo finish? Wow. Tough call. Lathan was a much better two way player than Key. Lathan was a better rebounder, shot blocker and all around defensive player. Key is a more dynamic offensive player that has the ability to be one of the best in the league. But the league isn't what it was when Lathan was playing. Lathan could change the "feel" of a game pretty quickly with some of his dunks. I think the majority here would go with Key who probably has a higher ceiling - but they're probably not considering how much better Lathan was on D than Key has been so far.

Hankins - McWhorter didn't last 4 years so how can he even get consideration. If you don't graduate a Sycamore you don't get consideration here.

Washington - Just a more physical and a more dynamic player. He will make more mistakes and get chewed on more than Lu. Eitel ever thought of - but he's just a better all around player. Not better shooter - just a better player.

But here is what it all comes down to... I think our role/bench player are better on the team we have now. But the alpha dogs are just not as good as those kids we had back then. In fact - I think that starting 5 is a better starting 5 across the board.


PG. Odum

SG. Kelly

SF. Lathan

PF. Richard

C. Walker

 

[sycamorebacker]

I think PG is the only position that the '11 team is better than now as far as the starters.

But if JB has a good year, we'll be much stronger in our top 9.

Excited about the future. Watching LaRavia reminds me of Odum.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

I think PG is the only position that the '11 team is better than now as far as the starters.

But if JB has a good year, we'll be much stronger in our top 9.

Excited about the future. Watching LaRavia reminds me of Odum.

Obviously don't see it that way at all... In fact - if you're going to go so far as to say then why not give me a breakdown and tell me why I'm wrong and you're right because I broke it down player by player. I'd love to know...

For instance - Agbo hasn't played a single D1 minute in his career. How can you fairly say that he's better than Walker was for us?? Walker was extremely valuable piece on those teams. Calling any one of our 4 Centers better than him is disrespectful.

You can make a case for Key or Neese at the 2 over Kelly - I'd probably take Key over Kelly at the 2 and give you the benefit of the doubt.

But I'm not taking Key or Neese or C. Williams over Lathan at the 3. Again - Lathan was a pretty good two way player. All 3 of those guys would have to improve drastically to measure up to Lathan on D.

Who you playing over Richard at the 4? Seriously, take your pick - I will go find Richard right now where ever he is in life and he is probably still today a better option.

 

[TreeTop]

This won't be as thorough as SSOM's, but...

Kitchell 6’10 225 Kessinger 6’8 230
KESSINGER - Kitchell redshirted in 2010-2011, so yeah, I'll take a redshirt senior over a redshirt.

Martin 6’8. 220 Brinkmeyer 6’9 215
MARTIN - I'll take the senior shot blocker over Brinkmeyer as a redshirt freshman.

Walker 6’8 250 Agbo 6’8 280
WALKER - senior vs freshman

Mahurin 6’8 185 LaRavia 6’8 220
LARAVIA - this is an interesting one because RJ was a freshman in 10-11, so I'll go with LaRavia based on all I've hearing about him.

Doluony 6’8 195 T Williams 6’7 240
T.WILLIAMS - Koang was a sophomore and didn't have a lot of strength to his frame.

Kelly 6’6. 185 C Barnes 6’6 215
KELLY - senior vs freshman

Richard 6’5 215 C Williams 6’5 210
RICHARD - just so SSOM doesn't freak out if I pick CWilliams. But in all seriousness, Richard was a great player (1,000 points, 700 rebounds).

Odum 6’4 170 J Barnes 5’11 155
ODUM - no explanation necessary - although, it's interesting that it's a senior vs freshman scenario and I still feel like it's hands down, Odum. Put Barnes up against any other player on the 10-11 roster, and I'd go Barnes.

Printy 6’4 185 Neese 6’4 190
NEESE - I think Neese has shaken off the rust and we're gonna see some exciting things this season.

Carter 6’4 195 Bacote 6’3 175
CARTER - but it's a tough comparison cuz Bacote is a true point guard and Carter didn't play that role much (or at all).

Lathan. 6’3 205 Key 6’2 205
LATHAN - just so SSOM doesn't freak out if I pick Key. And in all seriousness here, I think I might go with Key. We'll see where his junior-year ceiling is, come March of next year.

McWhorter 6’2 185 Hankins 6’4 195
MCWHORTER - both are freshman in this comparison and I just don't think Hankins is gonna see the floor much this season. Steve avg'd 15mpg in 10-11.

Lu. Eitel 6’2 185 Washington 6’3 210
WASHINGTON - Lucas played in 21 games with extremely limited minutes in 10-11, I'll take Washington ALL DAY in this comparison.

Lo. Eitel. 6’2 180 Martin 6’0 180
INSERT ANY WALK-ON

 

[sycamorebacker]

Obviously don't see it that way at all... In fact - if you're going to go so far as to say then why not give me a breakdown and tell me why I'm wrong and you're right because I broke it down player by player. I'd love to know...

For instance - Agbo hasn't played a single D1 minute in his career. How can you fairly say that he's better than Walker was for us?? Walker was extremely valuable piece on those teams. Calling any one of our 4 Centers better than him is disrespectful.

You can make a case for Key or Neese at the 2 over Kelly - I'd probably take Key over Kelly at the 2 and give you the benefit of the doubt.

But I'm not taking Key or Neese or C. Williams over Lathan at the 3. Again - Lathan was a pretty good two way player. All 3 of those guys would have to improve drastically to measure up to Lathan on D.

Who you playing over Richard at the 4? Seriously, take your pick - I will go find Richard right now where ever he is in life and he is probably still today a better option.

I'm not counting Agbo. I'm figuring on BK and BB giving us as more than Walker (6.5,5) (defense is a question)
Lathan and Richard each had more TO's than any player last year. I can't believe you're comparing anyone to Key. He scored 17 ppg, shot 52% with 49 TO's.
Lathan scored 11 ppg, shot 41% and had 87 TO's. Richard scored 9.5 ppg, shot 41% and had 79 TO's as a 6'4" PF.
Not sure about our PF this year since we don't know Agbo. But Key, Williams and Neese give us much more on the wings than Lathan, Carter, Kelly.

Mahurin and McWhorter were both just FR and AC was a shooter. I'm VERY confident with Bacot, LaRavia, Cobie Barnes, and Washington contributing more. Especially with their 7 yrs of experience.

And throw in JB's 14 ppg coming back as a bonus.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

I'm not counting Agbo. I'm figuring on BK and BB giving us as more than Walker (6.5,5) (defense is a question)
Lathan and Richard each had more TO's than any player last year. I can't believe you're comparing anyone to Key. He scored 17 ppg, shot 52% with 49 TO's.
Lathan scored 11 ppg, shot 41% and had 87 TO's. Richard scored 9.5 ppg, shot 41% and had 79 TO's as a 6'4" PF.
Not sure about our PF this year since we don't know Agbo. But Key, Williams and Neese give us much more on the wings than Lathan, Carter, Kelly.

Mahurin and McWhorter were both just FR and AC was a shooter. I'm VERY confident with Bacot, LaRavia, Cobie Barnes, and Washington contributing more. Especially with their 7 yrs of experience.

And throw in JB's 14 ppg coming back as a bonus.

We’re going to find out...

 

[Southgrad07]

Fun topic but IMO it is comparing apples to oranges at this point in the year..We all remember that 11 team for what they became and what they were able to do, not where they began the year...For instance nobody thinks about that team and thinks of the 30 point L at Wyoming or Myles hitting the bottom of the rim on dunks routinely...We think of what they were able to do as the year progressed. But for the sake of conversation this is the best I got..

Kitchell 6’10 225 Kessinger 6’8 230- Kessinger easily..Kitch was a redshirt that year and needed 2 more years to do anything productive..BK proved to be a productive backup last year

Martin 6’8. 220 Brinkmeyer 6’9 215-Martin..Very underrated backup big in Martin and i'm not quite sure what Brink will give us this year.. He has good end to end speed and a great motor...His footwork needs a ton of work though. The experience of a 4 year starter/role player in Martin would be more valuable in the short term.

Walker 6’8 250 Agbo 6’8 280- Agbo...Here is the best example of why this isn't a fair discussion... Agbo is the most physically imposing guy I've seen in Blue and has great passion when he plays...However he struggled to stay out of foul trouble at the JC level and has had difficulty defending the pick and roll in practice...Myles was one of the best hedgers of screens I've ever seen in any uniform...Problem is I keep thinking of the first time I saw Myles or hell even 4 months after he was on campus...Dude was a walking brick from any spot on the floor. By February he had things on the Offensive end worked out to the point that he was a big part of our success...Can Agbo fix the glaring holes in his game??? If so he will be far more impactful than even Myles was...

Mahurin 6’8 185 LaRavia 6’8 220- LaRavia...FR Mahurin was strictly a pick and pop slow 5.... Solid 8-9 guy...But Haven't seen LaRavia make a single jump shot (I know he can shoot though) and have been impressed with his overall game..He will be a solid contributor this year and could be special.

Doluony 6’8 195 T Williams 6’7 240-Williams..He has potential and a game ready body...Doluony did not have the body or the work ethic

Kelly 6’6. 185 C Barnes 6’6 215- Kelly...Easy one...Kelly with the injuries and hype from his all big ten season at Iowa gets overlooked..But he was our best defender and a very skilled handler/passer...Also he was clutch (see game winner against MSU or sealing our tourney bid with FT at arch madness..C.Barnes will be a good player..Not near Kelly's level this year.

Richard 6’5 215 C Williams 6’5 210- Yuck..I hate giving Richard any props...Total punk move his SR year and by all accounts just wasn't a great dude...But no denying his ability and impact on that 11 team...Plus CW was so up and down (more down) last year I can't justify giving him the nod...He is another one if the year goes the right way you could be singing a different tune come March

Odum 6’4 170 J Barnes 5’11 155- Odum...In most PG way of stating it Odum was everything that JB has not been to this point..You got one more year at the helm JB, but he is far closer to Scott or Marshall in Sycamore lore than Odum at this point...

Printy 6’4 185 Neese 6’4 190- Neese...Easy one. Neese played great ball the last 2 months of the season. He shoots as well if not better and checks the box better in all other aspects... I also don't buy the loose cannon argument against him.. I thought he played fairly within himself last year for a guy who went from ultimate green light in HS to a secondary player as a FR..

Carter 6’4 195 Bacote 6’3 175-Carter..Did way more than just shoot the ball...Heady player (best mover without the ball in the last ten years ) ,solid defender , and just overall a very efficient player..I know myself as a 21 year old I didn't appreciate the little things Kelly, Martin, and especially Carter did for that team..You saw their impact the year after..Most figured we would be better with all of those other guys coming back...Problem the gritty glue guys were gone and nobody replaced them.

Lathan. 6’3 205 Key 6’2 205 Key...To me this isn't all that close...Key is the best all around
scorer we've had since??? Moss??...Maybe better...If so your going back to Bird days..Yeah Lathan was better on the defensive end, but lets not act like he was some stopper..Hell we put Mcwhorter or Kelly on the best players we played...Lathan has a special place in Sycamore fans hearts (and he should) bc of his dunking ability...But the dude was a walking turnover that year and couldn't create shit for others...Not a great combo..He was a good scorer and defender..Also love the pride he has to this day of wearing the Sycamore blue...But Key is going to go down top 5 when it is all said and done at best and at worst one of the 3-5 best scorers.

McWhorter 6’2 185 Hankins 6’4 195...Mcwhorter...Played great defense in spots..Also I believe Hankins will RS so this is more by default..Hankins will have the better career..But not this year.

Lu. Eitel 6’2 185 Washington 6’3 210 Washington..Has a lot to work on...Dude is built like a linebacker though and last year showed the willingness to do the little things (offensive rebounds, loose balls, timely blocks) to help us...He has to get more comfortable on the offensive end though..He just doesn't have a niche on that end..He doesn't shoot it consistently and has sub par handles/moves to the rim...He has to do one of those at a higher level to reach his ceiling... which I am still pretty high on..Also a great kid off the floor. Eitel was great kid too and had that niche of shooter...He was too much of a liability elsewhere for me to give him the nod here.

Lo. Eitel. 6’2 180 Martin 6’0 180 - Eitel...why not

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

Tyreke Key needs to play both ends of the floor - simple as that. No doubting his offensive ability- but if I’m putting a team together I want a guy that can go on both ends. Lathan’s dunking ability has no real place in my heart - go back and look at any post I ever made about Lathan - I’m quite sure I probably asked him to stop kicking it around every other pos. Key is a more gifted player - Lathan was far more important than his elite dunking ability.

 

[SycfromBirth]

Tyreke Key needs to play both ends of the floor - simple as that. No doubting his offensive ability- but if I’m putting a team together I want a guy that can go on both ends. Lathan’s dunking ability has no real place in my heart - go back and look at any post I ever made about Lathan - I’m quite sure I probably asked him to stop kicking it around every other pos. Key is a more gifted player - Lathan was far more important than his elite dunking ability.

I will say that I appreciated Lathan's side job in concessions. He would deliver a bag of nuts right to someone's face.

 

[Southgrad07]

Tyreke Key needs to play both ends of the floor - simple as that. No doubting his offensive ability- but if I’m putting a team together I want a guy that can go on both ends. Lathan’s dunking ability has no real place in my heart - go back and look at any post I ever made about Lathan - I’m quite sure I probably asked him to stop kicking it around every other pos. Key is a more gifted player - Lathan was far more important than his elite dunking ability.

Think you need to rephrase that...Key needs to play both ends at a high level...Don't try to make him a Hughes or even a Scott his first year or 2..He isn't a train wreck on that end. Better than JB on that end too....He is just slightly below average...but has the tools to be much better, no doubt he needs to take it up a notch on that end... Also I am not saying Lathan was just a dunker..that was his only elite skill, but as I said he was a solid defender and slasher....But imo he was far worse handling the rock, shooting from range, and passing the basketball compared to Key while being just a competent defender

 

[Southgrad07]

I will say that I appreciated Lathan's side job in concessions. He would deliver a bag of nuts right to someone's face.

Chestnuts!!

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

Think you need to rephrase that...Key needs to play both ends at a high level...Don't try to make him a Hughes or even a Scott his first year or 2..He isn't a train wreck on that end. Better than JB on that end too....He is just slightly below average...but has the tools to be much better, no doubt he needs to take it up a notch on that end... Also I am not saying Lathan was just a dunker..that was his only elite skill, but as I said he was a solid defender and slasher....But imo he was far worse handling the rock, shooting from range, and passing the basketball compared to Key while being just a competent defender

He’s not a more complete player than Key - I said it was a tough one to call. You didn’t seem to think so a fair enough we disagree on that point.

No doubt Key can shoot it in a variety of ways better - no doubt Key can handle the ball better - no doubt Key shares the ball better. Key is not as effective around the basket as Lathan and that’s not particularly close at this point although Key improved.

Perhaps what made that team good besides Odum is they had a lot of different guys who played a role well and they were by definition a “team”. I think we’ve had a lot of guys ( not just Key)over the last several for whatever reason just really not want to lock in on D and I have a major issue with that. I feel like Walker, Richard, Kelly, Odum, Lathan, Carter - all those guys committed to playing both end of the floor. Until JB, Key, Neese, Williams (all good if not great offensive players) make a commitment to playing two ways your going to continue to look back to that team as the Gold standard and nothing will change. You can believe Key is better all you want - that’s fine. I’m just saying those 4 guys I mentioned have been way more worried about putting up gaudy offensive numbers than they have been winning.

No doubt Key is a more prolific offensive player than Lathan or anyone on that roster. He’s a special talent - I’m just not convinced we will be able to ride that alone to victory. I think in breaking down these rosters as we have here (interesting conversation or exercise) the most glaring thing to me was putting together a lineup that could do more than just score the ball. So as I was going I kind of hedged my selections putting more weight/favor on guys who I thought played better both ways.

I think the only instance where I probably didn’t do that and I’d probably adjust it now is Martin over Brink. That was a mistake on my part. Other than that - I think every player I went with was a more well rounded two way player.