Butler ?

[BlueSycamore]

Now that the "Big 4" are officially scheduled for the next couple of years, I have to ask the question...................how, why has Butler taken a giant leap away from Indiana State, Ball State & Evansville in particular. Did the rest of us just let it happen or are they really that much better than the rest of us? Butler until their recent climb a few years ago (not that many years ago either) was considered farther back in the dust & stuck with mediocrity and actually a step or two behind Indiana State, Ball State & Evansville for most of the last 30 years. Remember just a short while ago the Sycamores in the regular season and then I believe Southern Illinois and Drake in consecutive years going into Hinkle in the BracketBuster games & beating their a$$? Where or where have we all gone wrong since those times?

 

[Bally #50]

Five or more tourney appearances, three sweet sixteens and a final four. If Indiana State had accomplished that, we'd be right there or at least close to it. It doesn't hurt that they are in the media center of the state as well. Put the Cinderella slipper on in the final game in their HOME CITY and it is a media blitz that is hard to beat.

 

[bent20]

Good coaching leads to wins and better recruiting, better recruiting then leads to post season success. They're not quite elite yet though. They still can't get their coaches to stay and they play in a mediocre conference.

 

[Jason Svoboda]

Stability. Consistent Winning. Good Recruiting.

 

[mohoops247]

May I add recruiting mainly Indiana players? It seems like State got away from that for a while after the Menser/Renn days and it hurt them. We are finally starting to recruit locally again and I think it will help not only on the court but with support.

 

[TreeTop]

They still can't get their coaches to stay and they play in a mediocre conference.

With the exception of their head coach signing the 12 year extension.

 

[sycamorebacker]

I'm wondering if it will stick. They need 5-8 players that buy into leaving their guts on the floor. At times against Syracuse, Duke and others it looked like they had 7 defenders on the floor. Can they continue to get players that can do that? Or do they manufacture that attitude in practice?

 

[Bally #50]

My guess it stays around for at least a year or two. They will remian VERY competitive and the class of the Horizon, either way~

 

[bent20]

May I add recruiting mainly Indiana players? It seems like State got away from that for a while after the Menser/Renn days and it hurt them. We are finally starting to recruit locally again and I think it will help not only on the court but with support.

When you have great local recruits like we do right now its great. When you don't, you don't want a bunch of sub par talent just because it's the best we can find locally. Sadly, Indiana State has gone that route in the past, too, and it hurt us badly. There is great talent to be found in Indiana and the Wabash Valley, but I get nervous any time I see thoughts like this because I don't want it to narrow and shorten our recruiting pipelines.

 

[mohoops247]

When you have great local recruits like we do right now its great. When you don't, you don't want a bunch of sub par talent just because it's the best we can find locally. Sadly, Indiana State has gone that route in the past, too, and it hurt us badly. There is great talent to be found in Indiana and the Wabash Valley, but I get nervous any time I see thoughts like this because I don't want it to narrow and shorten our recruiting pipelines.

Agreed. I'm just saying Butler got to the position they are at now with mostly Indiana guys, while ISU didn't seem to bring in as many Indiana guys over that same time period. There are always going to be good recruits out there in the state of Indiana, sometimes you just have to look deeper for them, which it seems Butler has. And maybe ISU was at that time too but just couldn't get the guys to come. I don't know. Again, I do agree you can get burned with that philosophy but i feel if the coaches really do their homework it'll pay off for them most of the time.

 

[Gotta Hav]

butler's recent success revitalized this event, but this in-state tournament has deep ties to..."back-in-the-day".

Don't forget, BUTLER has been BUTLER, forever......while we've transitioned from Normal College to Indiana Normal to Indiana Normal College to Indiana State Teachers College to Indiana State University....or least something close to that.....and we weren't even Division I until some time in the mid or late 60's.

Someone with more details can make some minor corrections to the aforementioned.....but the recreation of this tournament between IU, PU, ND and BUTLER has a long and storied legacy that goes back, way back.

I mean did we ever play a Indiana High School basketball Championship game in Terre Hut? No, they were played in HINKLE FIELDHOUSE....not at Normal College in Terre Haute.....

I wish things were different, but they aren't....we just have to have 20+ winning seasons in a row, and we too can secure a long Indiana college basketball legacy....right now, our 7 winning seasons in 30 years is sucking hind teat.

 

[TreeTop]

I gotta agree with Gotta Hav.

 

[bent20]

I wish things were different, but they aren't....we just have to have 20+ winning seasons in a row, and we too can secure a long Indiana college basketball legacy....right now, our 7 winning seasons in 30 years is sucking hind teat.

Actually, it can be argued that we do have a long college basketball legacy, arguably with more substance than Butler, we just haven't done much of late to strengthen that legacy.

 

[Patriot_Sycamore]

Stability. Consistent Winning. Good Recruiting.

Ill add consistent and everything. They have their own coaching farm team in house. There is consistency in the type of player they get, both academically and basketball style. They do it without a new arena or practice facility. Our friends down route 46 recruit with bells and whistles.

Some schools get caught up in chasing the rankings, and how many stars a player has after his name. The rankings are very flawed.

If Stevens leaves it will probably be Mathew Graves, and he will continue the same....and when he leaves...and on and on.

 

[Sackalot]

Just because I feel like being "that guy".

Butler being the type of school that it is creates and develops amazing alumni support. Butler Alumni love their alma mater, they have a mascot to rally around, they have amazing traditions in Hinkle and the entire campus. ISU has none of these things. Sure most of us love ISU and support it, but we are not the majority of ISU Alums. We have no mascot to rally around and the lack of tradition in our programs is apparent and has been talked about many, many times in different threads.

All this goes to recruiting, excitment, etc. It is pretty simple you can get a decent looking, high quality t-shirt in Dick's Sporting Good, Finish Line, etc. But you sure can't get an ISU shirt....and that is the simple example. Alumni of Butler support their alma mater, they buy shirts, they donate....etc. But that is the way of things at a school like Butler.

Just my two cents.

 

[sycamorebacker]

Just because I feel like being "that guy".

Butler being the type of school that it is creates and develops amazing alumni support. Butler Alumni love their alma mater, they have a mascot to rally around, they have amazing traditions in Hinkle and the entire campus. ISU has none of these things. Sure most of us love ISU and support it, but we are not the majority of ISU Alums. We have no mascot to rally around and the lack of tradition in our programs is apparent and has been talked about many, many times in different threads.

All this goes to recruiting, excitment, etc. It is pretty simple you can get a decent looking, high quality t-shirt in Dick's Sporting Good, Finish Line, etc. But you sure can't get an ISU shirt....and that is the simple example. Alumni of Butler support their alma mater, they buy shirts, they donate....etc. But that is the way of things at a school like Butler.

Just my two cents.

All this is true. But tradition and history aside, what they did last year was get 150% out of their talent. Something that ALL schools and coaches try to do, but only a few can do it. Last year (and last year only) was trully remarkable.

 

[dr. bucket]

All this is true. But tradition and history aside, what they did last year was get 150% out of their talent. Something that ALL schools and coaches try to do, but only a few can do it. Last year (and last year only) was trully remarkable.

what butler has developed over the past however many years is more than a system. they have developed a culture. a culture that is supported and believed in by the players, who have taken on the responsibility of passing it on to their new teammates.

first of all you get the right kind of players (yes there are still some left); intelligent players who are also intelligent people who understand the game. you don't get caught up with courting the latest dribbling wonder. as matt howard said: "We're not going to beat you one-one-one. We play for each other. There's not one guy on this team who is selfish and that's why we win." words to live by as a basketball team. when you play that way you get these kind of responses from your opposition: "Butler was constantly running screens to get their guys shots. And they weren't just one and done. They were set plays with three, four or even five screens in a row. We don't do nearly enough of that."

the way they play, which is based on their culture, allows them to get more or the most out of their players. after all, the strength of the pack is in the wolf and the strength of the wolf is in the pack.

and wouldn't you rather watch that or play that way if you really understand the game rather than watching some guy dribble for 20 seconds. i know i would. but people are in love with the glitz more than they are effectiveness and efficiency. the worst thing is having played that way with other like-minded players is to have to play with knuckleheads who don't get it.

so the names and faces change but butler rolls on because the people they bring in are willing to be part of that culture and to sacrifice for it. a culture that says we do things the right way. as bill russell (aka the greatest player ever) said: the spokes change but the wheel keeps rolling. (as long as you get good strong spokes, i said that.)

 

[Bally #50]

Very well said, Bucket. Anyone else wonder how Menser or Matt Renn would have played in that system, particularly Menser???

 

[xfactor9600]

what butler has developed over the past however many years is more than a system. they have developed a culture. a culture that is supported and believed in by the players, who have taken on the responsibility of passing it on to their new teammates.

first of all you get the right kind of players (yes there are still some left); intelligent players who are also intelligent people who understand the game. you don't get caught up with courting the latest dribbling wonder. as matt howard said: "We're not going to beat you one-one-one. We play for each other. There's not one guy on this team who is selfish and that's why we win." words to live by as a basketball team. when you play that way you get these kind of responses from your opposition: "Butler was constantly running screens to get their guys shots. And they weren't just one and done. They were set plays with three, four or even five screens in a row. We don't do nearly enough of that."

the way they play, which is based on their culture, allows them to get more or the most out of their players. after all, the strength of the pack is in the wolf and the strength of the wolf is in the pack.

and wouldn't you rather watch that or play that way if you really understand the game rather than watching some guy dribble for 20 seconds. i know i would. but people are in love with the glitz more than they are effectiveness and efficiency. the worst thing is having played that way with other like-minded players is to have to play with knuckleheads who don't get it.

so the names and faces change but butler rolls on because the people they bring in are willing to be part of that culture and to sacrifice for it. a culture that says we do things the right way. as bill russell (aka the greatest player ever) said: the spokes change but the wheel keeps rolling. (as long as you get good strong spokes, i said that.)

I'd also say the bolded part goes for their fans as well.

 

[Sackalot]

I agree with that too.