INTENDED Consequences???

[4Q_iu]

Indiana's new school voucher law has prompted some parents to pull their children out of private schools and put them in public schools for a year so that they can become eligible for the state-funded program.

About $16 million in state money is being used to pay for nearly 4,000 students to attend private schools under the voucher program that started this fall.

St. Charles Borromeo Catholic School in Fort Wayne gained 24 students from the voucher program this fall. But Principal Rob Sordelet told The Journal Gazette that 15 students were withdrawn to spend a year in public schools and then return.

http://www.ibj.com/indiana-voucher-program-leads-to-reverse-transfers/PARAMS/article/30662

 

[Sackalot]

Absolutely true. Seen it happening in Hamilton County. The law is strange. The intent (I think) was to give students attending public school the option to attend a private school. But, with the requirement being that the student attend 1 year at a public, the private school with tuition are now seeing this happen. What is going to become the norm is that all kids that intend to go to private school will attend public school kindergarten, then go get the voucher and go to private schools.

 

[Callmedoc]

Absolutely true. Seen it happening in Hamilton County. The law is strange. The intent (I think) was to give students attending public school the option to attend a private school. But, with the requirement being that the student attend 1 year at a public, the private school with tuition are now seeing this happen. What is going to become the norm is that all kids that intend to go to private school will attend public school kindergarten, then go get the voucher and go to private schools.

I really hate this law. I really do. I think we should make it a limited scope of vouchers.

 

[Sackalot]

It is going to do one positive thing....help NOTRE DAME Football!!

 

[sycamore tuff]

It is going to do one positive thing....help NOTRE DAME Football!!

It will do two other things.
1) It will provide a better education to those kids whose parents provide this opportunity.
2) It will lower the cost of public education. I don't remember the value of the voucher, but it is significantly less than the $15k cost per year at the public schools.

 

[4Q_iu]

It will do two other things.
1) It will provide a better education to those kids whose parents provide this opportunity.
2) It will lower the cost of public education. I don't remember the value of the voucher, but it is significantly less than the $15k cost per year at the public schools.[/QUOTE]

Explain that math? The cost remains the cost. What this unconstitutional law does IS provide private, religious institutions with public tax dollars.

And YES, I believe this was an INTENDED consequence.

 

[4Q_iu]

It is going to do one positive thing....help NOTRE DAME Football!!

How so? This law will support non-catholic schools as well

 

[4Q_iu]

Absolutely true. Seen it happening in Hamilton County. The law is strange. The intent (I think) was to give students attending public school the option to attend a private school. But, with the requirement being that the student attend 1 year at a public, the private school with tuition are now seeing this happen. What is going to become the norm is that all kids that intend to go to private school will attend public school kindergarten, then go get the voucher and go to private schools.

Students (in general) have ALWAYS had this option. What they haven't been able to do is to get ME and other taxpayers to pay for it.

 

[sycamore51]

It will do two other things.
1) It will provide a better education to those kids whose parents provide this opportunity.
2) It will lower the cost of public education. I don't remember the value of the voucher, but it is significantly less than the $15k cost per year at the public schools.

This will not provide a better education for students. Private schools tend to show better on tests because they've been able to pick and chose who they take. The way the system is set up now a school has multiple subcategories in which they must show progress. These areas include special education, African American, Hispanic, free and reduced lunch, and several more. If you fail to meet ayp in one of these categories then you fail to meet ayp over all. To have these categories be a factor in a schools quest to meet ayp they must have a certain amount of kids in a category. Private schools often times don't have enough kids in any subcategory for it to be tracked, so they have a much smaller amount of subcategories to meet ayp in. The students education in most cases is no better at all, but the system is set up in their favor. Look at all of the charter schools that have popped up. They are performing terribly. And vouchers are completely unconstitutional. If you read the actual bill that was passed, the word voucher is not in it because the writers new it would be ruled unconstitutional.

 

[IndyTreeFan]

Don't kid yourselves, either, the private schools do not want all those voucher eligible students in their institutions. Watch for private school tuition to simply go up by more than the amount of the vouchers...

 

[IndianaState45]

Actually some charter schools are sending as many as 90%+ of their students on to college in demographic areas where only 20% of public educated kids go on to college....the best part is they don't cherry pick. It's a lottery system. They'll take anyone. Check out KIPP for a national charter school model that works and works well. Are their bad charter schools? Absolutely. Are there charter schools that point out how terrible public school results can be? Absolutely. I have personally studied KIPP in depth. It's results are unreal. Also Thomas Edison is supposed to be pretty good too. One problem we have in this area is that most of the great charter schools are on the coasts or have yet to build any depth in the Midwest.

 

[4Q_iu]

Don't kid yourselves, either, the private schools do not want all those voucher eligible students in their institutions. Watch for private school tuition to simply go up by more than the amount of the vouchers...

Disagree ITF; the private schools won't raise their tuition because of the voucher law; private schools can admit anyone they choose, no explanations.

Some may raise their tuitition but they'll simply choose the kids they want first.

 

[IndyTreeFan]

Disagree ITF; the private schools won't raise their tuition because of the voucher law; private schools can admit anyone they choose, no explanations.

Some may raise their tuitition but they'll simply choose the kids they want first.

You don't think that the state will begin to require that if you accept state money, you must accept further state control (i.e. not being able to turn down anyone they want to)? It might not be that way right now, but I wouldn't bet against it happening down the road.

Why make yourself turn the people down? Just raise your prices and then they won't even look at you...

 

[Eleven]

Actually some charter schools are sending as many as 90%+ of their students on to college in demographic areas where only 20% of public educated kids go on to college....the best part is they don't cherry pick. It's a lottery system. They'll take anyone.

Really? What are their classroom sizes?

ALL charter schools get to "control" their student population size. Public schools do not.

ALL charter schools have students... whose parents have taken and active role in their children's education..

MOST charter schools DO "cherry pick" their student population. I'd be VERY surprised if KIPP didn't either (I'll have to read up on it)... but can a child of ANY disability (mental, physical, learning, etc.) go to KIPP? What if they only speak chinese? Are their facilities completely ADA compliant?

 

[4Q_iu]

You don't think that the state will begin to require that if you accept state money, you must accept further state control (i.e. not being able to turn down anyone they want to)? It might not be that way right now, but I wouldn't bet against it happening down the road.

So, we're creating publicly-funded private schools who must conform to public school regulations?? :krazy:

How many Private Schools want vouchers?!? Not too many

Why make yourself turn the people down? Just raise your prices and then they won't even look at you...

Private schools can cherry pick NOW, they DO cherry pick NOW. It's not about $$$, it's about selectivity, exclusivity.

 

[IndyTreeFan]

You don't think that the state will begin to require that if you accept state money, you must accept further state control (i.e. not being able to turn down anyone they want to)? It might not be that way right now, but I wouldn't bet against it happening down the road.

So, we're creating publicly-funded private schools who must conform to public school regulations?? :krazy:

How many Private Schools want vouchers?!? Not too many



Private schools can cherry pick NOW, they DO cherry pick NOW. It's not about $$$, it's about selectivity, exclusivity.

I'm not really arguing your point, I'm just saying that once anyone, be it a school or a business, starts accepting government money, there are usually strings attached. I agree with your points, I can just see the state making things more "fair" down the road by tacking on regulations that must be followed if you (the school) want the state's (taxpayers) money...

 

[Eleven]

Really? What are their classroom sizes?

ALL charter schools get to "control" their student population size. Public schools do not.

ALL charter schools have students... whose parents have taken and active role in their children's education..

MOST charter schools DO "cherry pick" their student population. I'd be VERY surprised if KIPP didn't either (I'll have to read up on it)... but can a child of ANY disability (mental, physical, learning, etc.) go to KIPP? What if they only speak chinese? Are their facilities completely ADA compliant?

Answering my own questions:

Behind the numbers

According to DOE numbers, though, city charter schools generally contain a lower proportion of special needs students than do district schools-11.8 percent, compared with 16.7 percent citywide, although the charter percentage has been rising steadily since 2000.

That has been the sticking point among anti-charter school activists, who say that the statistics that charter schools use to demonstrate their success reflect a more ideal population.

Some charter advocates say that these numbers have less to do with enrollment than with students' progress over time. "At Democracy Prep we enroll more Special Needs students than the district or the city averages by substantial margins, but that number decreases the longer students are with us," wrote Seth Andrew, founder of Democracy Prep Charter School, in an email, pointing out that the same phenomenon exists for English Language Learners.

But critics claim that the disparity exists because charter schools intentionally shy away from enrolling students with disabilities, either because they don't have the resources to educate them or because they want to optimize their student bodies' performance.

"They know exactly what children they are selecting," said Dianne Johnson, president of the Community Education Council of District 5 in Harlem.

Despite these accusations, random lotteries are legally required for the charter selection process. Families that apply for seats in charters are entered into individual lotteries, and the schools are required to enroll the students that are randomly selected-with weight given only to specific criteria, such as the school district where the child lives.

Still, charter opponents say that families of disabled children are encouraged to send their children elsewhere even after they have been selected by the lottery.

This is not true, charter schools maintain. "We don't get to pick and choose our kids," said Patricia Charlemagne, chief operating officer of Future Leaders Institute Charter School in West Harlem. "It's not a fair assertion or accusation for anyone to make about charter schools. All children are to be admitted by a fair process."

So that number is NOW up to 11.8 percent... meaning it WAS lower... during the time that everyone is championing the success of the programs.

Also, the ONLY way for a public school to "limit" it's enrollment is redistricting.. It can't do a "lottery" and limit the class sizes to their liking..

Do charter schools provide transportation for students?

 

[SycamoreFan317]

Actually some charter schools are sending as many as 90%+ of their students on to college in demographic areas where only 20% of public educated kids go on to college....the best part is they don't cherry pick. It's a lottery system. They'll take anyone. Check out KIPP for a national charter school model that works and works well. Are their bad charter schools? Absolutely. Are there charter schools that point out how terrible public school results can be? Absolutely. I have personally studied KIPP in depth. It's results are unreal. Also Thomas Edison is supposed to be pretty good too. One problem we have in this area is that most of the great charter schools are on the coasts or have yet to build any depth in the Midwest.

Actually KIPP does have one school in Indy a College Prep Academy for grades 5-8, the link is below. Perry Township schools have voluntarily partnered with Edison to run two of their elementary schools. Online Public schools are gaining traction as well such as K12.com, but not much data on their performance yet. The special needs student is getting lost in the shuffle.

http://websites.msdpt.k12.in.us/jg/school/
http://websites.msdpt.k12.in.us/rp/about/
http://www.kipp.org/school-content/kipp-indianapolis-college-preparatory

 

[4Q_iu]

I'm not really arguing your point, I'm just saying that once anyone, be it a school or a business, starts accepting government money, there are usually strings attached. I agree with your points, I can just see the state making things more "fair" down the road by tacking on regulations that must be followed if you (the school) want the state's (taxpayers) money...

Agree -- which is why the private schools weren't fans of the vouchers.

 

[Sackalot]

Speaking from the perspective of a parent with children in private catholic schools. The reason that students have the opportunity to be more successful is discipline. Plain and simple, if a student acts up or causes problems in the classroom they are disciplined. (not like you see in old movies where the nun would hit them with a ruler) but they discipline the child for acting out and discrupting the education of the other students. They have signficant parent involvement, typically much, much higher than in public schools and the class size is smaller in most cases (though not always).

As for the debate about vouchers, it is somewhat silly for private schools to really care about the vouchers anyway. They decide on their admissions standards. In most cases (especially with catholic schools) it is completely dependent upon if the student is catholic themselves, if they attended catholic school and their test scores anyway. If a student can't meet the test requirements they are not getting in anyway. In non-secular schools that is different, but in Indy I can only think of 1 truly private (Park Tudor..is there another one that I am not thinking of?).