To Bad that ISU Administrators Didnt Have Similar-Sized "Balls"...

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Ain't that the truth....now, if there was an alumni out there that could hold the university hostage with a multi-million dollar donation....I'd bet a small Starbucks coffee that ISU would change their war cry.

Wompumh talk, political correctness walk.
 
What heritage? We had an Indian mascot for twenty of our 100 plus years even though we were the Sycamores and our school had no connection to any tribe, so what heritage???

Another note: I know Sycamore Sam isn't popular but if it's about history and tradition, we've had him as a mascot almost as long as we had the indians.
 
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As mike and mike would say. He needs to just shut up. He should worry about other things like getting his country back open.
 
bent20 said:
What heritage? We had an Indian mascot for twenty of our 100 plus years even though we were the Sycamores and our school had no connection to any tribe, so what heritage???
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If you were at INDIANa State for 4 yrs and never learned or understood the HISTORY of the Native American tribes and their past relationship to West Central Indiana, then perhaps IOWA is the best place for you...hope you and the Hawkeyes enjoy gleaning the cornfields this fall before the heavy snow arrives.
 
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I do believe he meant, that there are or were any Indian Tribes name SYCAMORES... then I could be wrong:blink:
 
nwi stater said:
I do believe he meant, that there are or were any Indian Tribes name SYCAMORES... then I could be wrong:blink:
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Yes, I'm sure that's what he was basing his argument on. However, the "Chief Quabache" Sycamore mascot, while fictional, represented a POSITIVE association with the HISTORY surrounding Terre Haute and as such, was a well-anchored historic REPRESENTATIVE between Terre Haute (the COMMUNITY) and Indiana State, the UNIVERSITY.

Sycamore Sam (the groundhog, fox, squirrel, chipmunk, beaver?) offers NO association with ANYTHING.

Wonder why the State of Indiana has this award?

http://www.statesymbolsusa.org/Indiana/Award_wabash.html

A lil' history on the word association of Sagamore/Sycamore:

http://www.indiana.edu/~librcsd/internet/extra/sagamore.html

I thought this clip was of particular interest, given that VOORHEES was a native of TERRE HAUTE:

Sycamore and Sagamore

Carter continues by considering the suggestion that the Sagamore title may have been influenced by the nickname of Daniel W. Voorhees (1829-1897), a U. S. representative and senator. Voorhees, an accomplished orator, was known as the Tall Sycamore of the Wabash, a designation he acquired "not only because he was tall -- over six feet, massive of head, and broad over shoulder, but because, in the excitement of forensics, his hair stood out like the quills of a sycamore's buttonball." (Wilson p. 111)

A Voorhees inspiration is unlikely, Carter concludes. That may be, although it is hard to ignore the similarity between the sobriquet and the award and the euphony of the two phrases. Still, Gates (1893-1978), Harrell and Pantzer were good Republicans, unlikely deliberately to create award specifically with Voorhees in mind. Voorhees was a Democrat with "long and steadfast service to his party in Indiana." (Wilson, p. 111) Not only that, he was, perhaps with some justice, considered by many to be a copperhead during the Civil War. He opposed freeing the slaves and questioned Lincoln's power to issue the Emancipation Proclamation. (Wilson, p.111) He also opposed other policies of the president, including "conscription, violation of habeas corpus, and war finances." (American National Biography, v. 22, p. 408) After the war he favored soft money and low tariffs, anathema to reliable Republicans of the Gilded Age, who vigorously supported a high tariff and a strict gold standard. Carter finds "more likely" that the choice of sagamore as an honorific by the Governor and his friends lies in its association with Little Turtle, "a genuine and original sagamore of the Wabash." (Carter, p. xiv) He explains that "Governor Gates was from Columbia City, in Whitley County, where Little Turtle was born and resided for most of his life, was a determining factor in their thinking." (Carter, p. xiv)

In a nutshell, Indiana history reflects three (3) of the greatest-ever U.S. Native American leaders/organizers in Little Turtle, The Prophet and Tecumseh.

Ya, I can see WHY "Sycamore Sam" became ISU's mascot...it's spelled i-g-n-o-r-a-n-c-e.
 
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irrelevant argument! NCAA says no, so its no! If we had an affiliation with a Tribe, that would be different. We don't. This is a problem because our mascot/nickname is a damn tree. Its a TREE! Wouldn't be any argument if we were a bear, lion, bulldog, or any other creature. But we are a unique thing..we are a tree. Which is very interesting in and of itself. Was the Chief cool...hell yes! Were the princesses cool...hell yes! Do we do that anymore...NOPE. Move on and accept that Sam is the mascot, kids love him and that is that. If you associate getting excited and hyped up for a game with the mascot then I don't know what to tell you...Would you prefer a guy running around in a tree outfit?

This is a privately owned team in professional sports...college and universities, especially ISU are not going to fight that fight...ever! Get past it!
 
Sackalot said:
irrelevant argument! NCAA says no, so its no! If we had an affiliation with a Tribe, that would be different. We don't. This is a problem because our mascot/nickname is a damn tree. Its a TREE! Wouldn't be any argument if we were a bear, lion, bulldog, or any other creature. But we are a unique thing..we are a tree. Which is very interesting in and of itself. Was the Chief cool...hell yes! Were the princesses cool...hell yes! Do we do that anymore...NOPE. Move on and accept that Sam is the mascot, kids love him and that is that. If you associate getting excited and hyped up for a game with the mascot then I don't know what to tell you...Would you prefer a guy running around in a tree outfit?

This is a privately owned team in professional sports...college and universities, especially ISU are not going to fight that fight...ever! Get past it!
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I agree with Sack on this one. It really doesn't matter whether we had affiliation or not with a tribe. I have made this comment before, but the University of Illinois did EVERYTHING correctly with Chief Illniwek (or however it is spelled), had the mascot take classes in Indian culture, history etc, made him learn the steps correctly, and his outfit was authentic and they still had to get rid of him. Since I agree with the NCAA's stance on this, despite seeing merit from the way UI handed their chief, I was all for phasing him out.

Even though Ouabachi was created during my time in college, I never really thought it was the right thing to do, even though I knew almost all of them personally over the years.
 
BankShot said:
If you were at INDIANa State for 4 yrs and never learned or understood the HISTORY of the Native American tribes and their past relationship to West Central Indiana, then perhaps IOWA is the best place for you...hope you and the Hawkeyes enjoy gleaning the cornfields this fall before the heavy snow arrives.
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There were and still are in many cases, indian tribes across the entire continent, so using that as an explanation seems puzzling to me.
 

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I can understand why...I began my HS teaching career in '77 on the Turtle Mountain Reservation in ND, teaching U.S., W. History and Tribal Government. My Teacher Adviser back then was Dr. John Derby, who ultimately became head of the Dept. of Indian Education in Washington, DC (within the Bureau of Indian Affairs). He is now semi-retired in Sioux Falls, SD.

Did you read ANY of post #8 within this thread? Ever wonder why this state is called I-N-D-I-A-N-A? It's a salute to the many different tribes that occupied this geographic area prior to statehood. Just think...if the former ISU administrators had their way, you'd see "Sycamore Sam" logos on all government paperwork today, afraid to stand for their HERITAGE. Fortunately, there's still a few around that know Indiana history and have the same ethos as the owner of the Washington Redskins.
 
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Biggest problem with Roger Goodell's comment that "if one person is offended, we have to listen" is that no matter the situation someone is ALWAYS offended in this nation. We have become a nation that for some reason caters to the small percentage that complains and ignores the vast majority that doesn't have a problem or wants something to remain the same. No matter what the issue is, someone is always going to disagree and be "offended", so then what?

I don't personally care one way or the other if you change the name of the Redskins or not, but stop with the whole "offended" stuff. If they do end up changing the name, I will make sure to write Roger Goodell a letter saying that I believe the Oakland Raiders are offensive because my great, great, great grandparents were pirates. Furthermore the Cleveland Browns are racist to all peoples with Hispanic and African ancestry and the New Orlean Saints should be changed because it sounds too "Christian" and that is offensive to many people.

He has to listen because one person is offended. Seriously, that has to be one of the lamest, most spineless statements I have ever heard.

Tolerance has now become the most abused word in the English language.
 
BankShot said:
I can understand why...I began my HS teaching career in '77 on the Turtle Mountain Reservation in ND, teaching U.S., W. History and Tribal Government. My Teacher Adviser back then was Dr. John Derby, who ultimately became head of the Dept. of Indian Education in Washington, DC (within the Bureau of Indian Affairs). He is now semi-retired in Sioux Falls, SD.

Did you read ANY of post #8 within this thread? Ever wonder why this state is called I-N-D-I-A-N-A? It's a salute to the many different tribes that occupied this geographic area prior to statehood. Just think...if the former ISU administrators had their way, you'd see "Sycamore Sam" logos on all government paperwork today, afraid to stand for their HERITAGE. Fortunately, there's still a few around that know Indiana history and have the same ethos as the owner of the Washington Redskins.
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Yes, I've read that as being the rationale before. Not real powerful or meaningful. I don't see many native americans taking pride in the Indiana name. Most don't even identify themselves as "indians" for obvious reasons. If you want to honor the tribes that's fine, but having some frat kid hopping around in a headdress and banging on a war drum or whatever doesn't do that. It's like people getting exciting about this Haka war dance or whatever. It looks neat, but that's all. It's not about heritage.

My grandparents, Indiana State grads, had a glass with the chief logo. They never thought much of it, never meant much to them as it came 20 plus years after they graduated. Not much tradition. Not much meaning.
 

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Bluethunder said:
Biggest problem with Roger Goodell's comment that "if one person is offended, we have to listen" is that no matter the situation someone is ALWAYS offended in this nation. We have become a nation that for some reason caters to the small percentage that complains and ignores the vast majority that doesn't have a problem or wants something to remain the same. No matter what the issue is, someone is always going to disagree and be "offended", so then what?

I don't personally care one way or the other if you change the name of the Redskins or not, but stop with the whole "offended" stuff. If they do end up changing the name, I will make sure to write Roger Goodell a letter saying that I believe the Oakland Raiders are offensive because my great, great, great grandparents were pirates. Furthermore the Cleveland Browns are racist to all peoples with Hispanic and African ancestry and the New Orlean Saints should be changed because it sounds too "Christian" and that is offensive to many people.

He has to listen because one person is offended. Seriously, that has to be one of the lamest, most spineless statements I have ever heard.

Tolerance has now become the most abused word in the English language.
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To suggest it's one person or a very small minority opposed to the Redskins name is just inaccurate.

From the article below:
Many such testimonials in the past few decades should have settled what debate could be said to exist, and yet every so often the issue shows up in the news and is framed as a two-sided argument—though defenders are left maintaining untenable positions, such as that these symbols are not offensive (which, since many, though not all, Native Americans say they are, is essentially moot), or else muse about things like history and team pride. (It seems safe to say that no sports team opening its doors today would consider naming themselves the Indians or the Redskins or the Braves.) Comments, meanwhile, that people should “quit being so sensitive” or “get over it” signal an absence of empathy and a failure of imagination. As for those fans who may feel themselves bullied into giving up their attachment to a name on the front of a jersey or a picture on a helmet—well, the history of a sports team does not count for more, or carry more emotional weight, than the real history of real people. One respondent to the AP poll puts it well:

With everything that Native Americans have gone through in this country, to have a sports team named the Redskins—come on, now. It’s bad. Much farther down the road, we’re going to look back on this and say, “Are you serious? Did they really call them the Washington Redskins?” It’s a no-brainer.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/sportingscene/2013/05/redskins-football-name-controversy.html
 
Sackalot said:
irrelevant argument! NCAA says no, so its no! If we had an affiliation with a Tribe, that would be different. We don't. This is a problem because our mascot/nickname is a damn tree. Its a TREE! Wouldn't be any argument if we were a bear, lion, bulldog, or any other creature. But we are a unique thing..we are a tree. Which is very interesting in and of itself. Was the Chief cool...hell yes! Were the princesses cool...hell yes! Do we do that anymore...NOPE. Move on and accept that Sam is the mascot, kids love him and that is that. If you associate getting excited and hyped up for a game with the mascot then I don't know what to tell you...Would you prefer a guy running around in a tree outfit?

This is a privately owned team in professional sports...college and universities, especially ISU are not going to fight that fight...ever! Get past it!
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You must've been on the "Committee" that adopted "Sam," thus falling in the category earlier described! Is Sam a "Sycamore?" Hell no...and as far as "kid's loving him," who cares? They love Mickey Mouse and Mr. Ed also. Tell us, Sack...what's HISTORICALLY been the PURPOSE of a school "mascot?" How does the current image of "Sycamore Sam" meet this criteria?

Yes, we can also "move" beyond Sycamore Sam , who represents NOTHING, as easily as we did with Chief Quabache...who once positively symbolized the HERITAGE of the Wabash Valley.

Not sure where you were nurtured, Sack, but I was raised in the Wabash Valley. As a Cub Scout, there were a number of positive identities w/ Native Americans associated with CHARACTER development. We also had appropriately-named festivals ("Jamborees") held yearly at the Vigo County Fairgrounds, CELEBRATING the indigenous heritage of the Wabash Valley people. I also recall during the 4th grade, again, as a "Cub Scout," participating in a "Children's Theater Production" @ ISU's Dreiser Hall, themed in a Native American-related plot. For a MONTH, our parents picked us up from grade school and transported us to Dreiser, where they then helped with our Indian costumes & makeup. Finally after 4 weeks, the curtain raised for a week of theater.

There are many of us ISU Alumni that were saddened by ISU administrators who thought it best to just bend over and take it in the rear by the NCAA, rather than reflect a "fighting spirit" in an effort to uphold the traditions and values of those long-associated with the University and Wabash Valley. There was NOTHING negatively projected by the use of Native American imagery by ISU mascot(s), and the complaints (if there were any), were without merit.

A good mascot symbolizes character traits inherent in a winning tradition. A few of these are strength, poise, courage and finesse. I'm sure that you can think of others.

What does "Sycamore Sam" project when players glance his way when times get tough during a game? Inspiration? Not...
 
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bent20 said:
To suggest it's one person or a very small minority opposed to the Redskins name is just inaccurate.

From the article below:
Many such testimonials in the past few decades should have settled what debate could be said to exist, and yet every so often the issue shows up in the news and is framed as a two-sided argument—though defenders are left maintaining untenable positions, such as that these symbols are not offensive (which, since many, though not all, Native Americans say they are, is essentially moot), or else muse about things like history and team pride. (It seems safe to say that no sports team opening its doors today would consider naming themselves the Indians or the Redskins or the Braves.) Comments, meanwhile, that people should “quit being so sensitive” or “get over it” signal an absence of empathy and a failure of imagination. As for those fans who may feel themselves bullied into giving up their attachment to a name on the front of a jersey or a picture on a helmet—well, the history of a sports team does not count for more, or carry more emotional weight, than the real history of real people. One respondent to the AP poll puts it well:

With everything that Native Americans have gone through in this country, to have a sports team named the Redskins—come on, now. It’s bad. Much farther down the road, we’re going to look back on this and say, “Are you serious? Did they really call them the Washington Redskins?” It’s a no-brainer.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/sportingscene/2013/05/redskins-football-name-controversy.html
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A recent poll stated that 90% of Native Americans did not find the name offensive. Now, we can debate all day long who was included in that poll, how much ancestry do they really have, etc etc. For me, I am looking at the larger picture. As I stated above, I don't really care if you change the name or not, makes no difference to me. I can see both sides. I can see how one could say the term is offensive, and I can see how one could say it is not because of the intent behind the name.

I just get very tired watching different things get changed, removed, altered, thrown out, etc all because a small group of people are "offended". The word is becoming a laughing stock, because it has been thrown around so often. My question is at what point does a group that is offended matter? If 5000 people are in favor of something, and two people are offended, should it be changed? Are those two people enough to make the argument in favor of abolishing or altering something relevant? What about if 20 people are offended? What about if 200 people are offended? A picture, a phrase, a document, a memorial, etc can stand for decades, and then 1% of the population can be "offended" and the rest of the 99% of the population has to fall in line behind them? What if you are offended by something, wish it to be removed or changed, and by removing it or changing it you now offend me? Who is right and who gets to decide?

Goodell's comment that if "one person is offended we have to listen" is a very dangerous precedent in this day and age, because someone is always offended. Maybe if they change it to the Washington "Pretty Puffy Clouds" they will be ok.
 
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