What Would Be A Better Format for the NCAA Div I MBB Tournament?

[DyedBlue]

If you had the power, how would you restructure the MBB Tourney? Oftentimes, there are unintended consequences (or collateral damage depending on the point of view) from change. Thoughts on that are appreciated.

I believe both of my proposals below would trend towards greater talent distribution both in Power 6 and Mid-Major conferences.

The concentration of the tournament in Indiana this year and the very limited crowds seems to be presenting a more balanced competitive environment; however, that is not likely to last.

So, to answer my challenge, here are my off the top of my head proposals:

My historic favorite: A completely open tournament with 64 sites with nominally 6 teams/site. Forget sending teams all over the nation - play the schools in your own back yard and if that means some big-time names get knocked out early, that is just too bad. Tickets would be at a super-premium for almost every site. (Think: IU/PU/Butler/IUPUI/Ball State/ISU in the Indiana Central Regional; Notre Dame/Loyola/Valpo/Northwestern/DePaul/UIC in Chicago; PUFW/MSU/UM/EMU/CMU/WMU; Bradley/Illinois State/Illinois/NIU/SLU/SIU for example)
Should be able to find a 'neutral floor' for many if not most of the sites.
This is inherently fairer than the pre-1998 IHSAA Tournament format w/o classes. Each school would have access to the same number of scholarships and theoretically the same rules by which to recruit. Does anyone think Rosedale versus Lawrence North is fairer than that?

My Newer Thought:
Do away with shipping teams across the country to 'balance the field'. Give the games back to the fans of the teams who just cannot get away to travel to Seattle. Go back to the old East/MidWest/South/West format so that a region of the country had someone to root for in the final 4.

Create a more 'just' system for the mid-major leagues by expansion and division.
64 Teams from the Power 6 (B10, B12, SEC, ACC, PAC12, Big East) form their own bracket and play down to 16 teams on the first weekend much as we do now except by geography.
64 teams from the remaining conferences with every league getting at least one team and some sort of selection process to complete the 64 teams. Play down to 16 teams.

Go to 4 sites with 8 teams/site. These would be geography-based so that it would probably force some matchups on a neutral floor that the Major Conferences never allow to happen.
Mid-Majors and Majors are slated to play each other in the first round. Seed the teams from each bracket and 1 plays 4 and 2 plays 3 from the other bracket.

You have a final 4 at the same timing as we do now but with just one extra game at the regional level.

 

[sycamorebacker]

How about seeds 1-8 play down to 1; and 9-16 play down to 1 then the winners play each other. That would eliminate 1-16 matchups that automatically eliminate 16's.

And no team with a worse than .500 record in their conference be allowed in.

 

[tennessee]

I don't know where the cut-off should be seed wise, but I've always felt like it is crappy to make conference champions the 16 seed to be fed to the 1 seed buzzsaw.

In my opinion, the at-large teams should be seeded at 14-16 or whatever makes sense.

 

[4Q_iu]

...My historic favorite: A completely open tournament with 64 sites with nominally 6 teams/site. Forget sending teams all over the nation - play the schools in your own back yard and if that means some big-time names get knocked out early, that is just too bad. Tickets would be at a super-premium for almost every site. (Think: IU/PU/Butler/IUPUI/Ball State/ISU in the Indiana Central Regional; Notre Dame/Loyola/Valpo/Northwestern/DePaul/UIC in Chicago; PUFW/MSU/UM/EMU/CMU/WMU; Bradley/Illinois State/Illinois/NIU/SLU/SIU for example)
Should be able to find a 'neutral floor' for many if not most of the sites.
This is inherently fairer than the pre-1998 IHSAA Tournament format w/o classes. Each school would have access to the same number of scholarships and theoretically the same rules by which to recruit. Does anyone think Rosedale versus Lawrence North is fairer than that?

your historical favorite currently exists in the form of the conference tourneys, no inter-conference regional matchups but as close as it's ever going to be

the biggest change that should occur...

every conference gets two automatic bids
The first is for the conference champion (regular season) is the recipient of the conference's automatic bid
the second is for the conf tourney champ

there's your 64 field tourney.

IF the same team wins both titles, then the conference can select as THEY CHOOSE their 2nd team.

The only legit expansion past 64 teams is to 128, that's only one additional round. There are currently 357 schools in Div I, 128 bids in the tourney is 36% of all schools but nearly 66% of all Div I FBS schools play in a bowl game.

 

[Jason Svoboda]

Expand the tournament to 96 teams.

For the first 64 seeds, there are 32 conferences so each get 2 invites with their regular season champ and conference tourney champ. If they are the same team or don't have a conference tournament, the regular season #2 team gets the invite. Makes the regular season matter.

Then you have 32 at-large berths that are seeded 65-96 overall and placed in the 4 regions. For consideration of an at-large berth, you must have finished with an overall and conference record of .500 or better. No P5 schools going 7-9 in conference get invites... they can head off to the NIT/CIT, etc.

Roll the ball out and play.

 

[4Q_iu]

Expand the tournament to 96 teams.

For the first 64 seeds, there are 32 conferences so each get 2 invites with their regular season champ and conference tourney champ. If they are the same team or don't have a conference tournament, the regular season #2 team gets the invite. Makes the regular season matter.

Then you have 32 at-large berths that are seeded 65-96 overall and placed in the 4 regions. For consideration of an at-large berth, you must have finished with an overall and conference record of .500 or better. No P5 schools going 7-9 in conference get invites... they can head off to the NIT/CIT, etc.

Roll the ball out and play.

That's nearly the scenario today since the NCAA gives reg season teams an auto-bid to the NCAA-owned NIT.

I don't believe there's ever been an NIT team w/ an overall <.500 record.

There's really no need for a CBI or a CiT but there's also no reason to have 44 bowls in FBS play...

 

[tennessee]

That's nearly the scenario today since the NCAA gives reg season teams an auto-bid to the NCAA-owned NIT.

I don't believe there's ever been an NIT team w/ an overall <.500 record.

There's really no need for a CBI or a CiT but there's also no reason to have 44 bowls in FBS play...

I guess it could be argued that the CBI and CIT at least allow teams to play in a tournament atmosphere which could be beneficial if they reach the NCAA or NIT the next season.

 

[Jason Svoboda]

That's nearly the scenario today since the NCAA gives reg season teams an auto-bid to the NCAA-owned NIT.

I don't believe there's ever been an NIT team w/ an overall <.500 record.

There's really no need for a CBI or a CiT but there's also no reason to have 44 bowls in FBS play...

Right, I've basically absorbed the NIT into the NCAA field but want seeding adjusted so it forces at larges to have to play.

I'd also contend I want an analytic/metric-driven seeding framework developed and put out that takes the good ole boys out of the equation. Since P5 schools refuse to schedule MM, I don't want to hear shit about quadrant wins when they won't give MMs the opportunity to get them. So they can come up with a couple algs that will create optimal seeding and scheduling.

 

[Jason Svoboda]

I guess it could be argued that the CBI and CIT at least allow teams to play in a tournament atmosphere which could be beneficial if they reach the NCAA or NIT the next season.

There are 350+ D1 teams. Assuming that there are only 64 good ones is an awful look considering we've seen 27-3 mid-majors get left out in the past.

I also know many here disagree, but getting experience in high intensity tournaments is a big benefit for returning players. And no matter what older folks think, that participation matters to the players, too. To get to play in Madison Square Garden, for example, is a big fucking deal.

 

[4Q_iu]

I guess it could be argued that the CBI and CIT at least allow teams to play in a tournament atmosphere which could be beneficial if they reach the NCAA or NIT the next season.

I agree -- though I think the "system" would benefit more if they simply expanded the NCAA.

But as the NCAA is owned by the "power 5" conferences, no changes to "damage" "p5 school's" opportunities will occur.

 

[DyedBlue]

your historical favorite currently exists in the form of the conference tourneys, no inter-conference regional matchups but as close as it's ever going to be

I beg to differ. This is FAR from the existing conference tournaments.

It brings the teams and fans closer together both geographically and socially. I would much rather square off each year at Banker's Life Fieldhouse against a field of PU, IU, Butler, IUPUI and Ball State than an MVC field in St. Louis.

The Power 6 schools would probably have a seeding advantage at each site, at least initially, as seeds 1 & 2 would get a bye in a six-team field.

A completely open tournament means they get all of their league teams in the field which has some appeal I think. It also mitigates any need to bolt the NCAA and set up their own tournament.

And strange things happen in tournaments. I think if was in 1967 that TH Garfield started the IHSAA tournament something like 7-15 and advanced to the final 4.

It would bring back a semblance of the old IHSAA Sectional atmosphere when 80% of they fans in the gym united to root against the big dog school. Rather than the boring system now in play for the past many years.

It brings down the cost to attend the tourney.
It creates compelling win or go home matchups on a semi-localized basis (which is what made the ACC Tourney in the first place before the field began expansion)

I remain puzzled why the Presidents and ADs of MM/LM leagues won't vote their own self interest.

But, given their cowardice, you are probably correct with you 'as close as its ever going to be' statement.

 

[4Q_iu]

It's interesting that you repeatedly cite the (former) Best HS Tournament in the History of the Nation but as we know - it's FORMERLY the Best and then a bunch of greedy, "couldn't win a Sectional" when they were a coach ADs, Principals and/or Superintendents destroyed the work of art known as Hoosier Hysteria

Your scenario, while intriguing will NEVER come to pass - hell, the "P5 schools" refuse to schedule MidMajors for regular season games, ain't no WAY in hell, they'll sign up for a regional/inter-conference 1st / 2nd round NCAA tourney

Your mention of "strange things happening in tournaments" is EXACTLY why the "P5 schools" will not support your plan

And you're thinking of the 1962-63 Purple Eagles, 9-9 at the end of the regular season

Sectional
Garfield 51 - 41 Wiley
Garfield 57 - 54 West Vigo (OT)
Garfield 76 - 62 Gerstmeyer

Regional
Garfield 71 - 40 Freedom
Garfield 67 - 45 Bloomfield

Semi-State
Garfield 52 - 51 Seymour
Garfield 60 - 55 Evansville Bosse

State
Garfield 45 - 72 South Bend Central and Head Coach Jim Powers (ISU, Class of 1950) led by Mike Warren aka Michael Warren, UCLA All-American, aka "Officer Bobby Hill of the Hill Street (Blues) Precinct" were too much for Frank Hamblen, Greg Samuels and crew...

scores: Courtesy of Bill May's "Tourney Time: The IHSAA Boys Basketball Tournament, 1911-2003"

Every IHSAA Boys Finals Program at: www.ihsaa.org/dnn/Media/Tournament-Programs

 

[DyedBlue]

Thanks for the research. I was pretty young back then and not a TH resident.

 

[SycamoreinTexas]

Make it similar to NCAA baseball. 4 teams in each region. Double elimination. Winners to sweet 16 play a best of 3 series. Elite 8 is a single elimination tourney

 

[4Q_iu]

Thanks for the research. I was pretty young back then and not a TH resident.

As was I... the Bill May book is great; the IHSAA site equally excellent