Brown Vs. Scott

[Southgrad07]

To generate some discussion over the next few days I want to pose this question …Why does Brown seem to get more “hate” on the board and amongst fans while Scott for the most part is always praised? Is it because of the FR to JR difference and the expectations that come with being an upperclassmen? Or is it people still remember the Brown of old and when he makes one of his infamous “bonehead” plays they cant help themselves? Or is it something im not seeing?

First let me be clear I ask this not because I want to knock Scott in any way! I like both of them as players! I like both of their mental approaches to the game. Both are not afraid of the big moment or shot and wont back down from anybody. They both bring clear strengths to our team, although they have very different games..

Scott is the far better shooter while Brown is the far better driver and finisher. Scott shoots a higher % from the foul line while Brown is an all league type defender. Both are fairly high TO players and capable of doing incredibly stupid things with the ball and both rebound well for their size. This leads me to why im confused… Brown and Scott have been our two most consistent players this year and most fans seem to be he’s better but.. blah blah blah about Brown’s game and then are raving about Scott’s.

I get that Scott is the RS Fr and Brown is a Jr, and I wouldn't argue with anyone who would take Scotts 3 yrs left over Browns 1.... But I also think the fact that Brown is playing the point when he’s not a true point should be factored in. If Scott was asked to be the primary point I think you would see even higher TO numbers from him and would take him out of what he’s best at…spot up shooting off penetration. I understand that Scott is giving us 12 ppg while shooting the ball at a high % and that those #are almost unheard of for a FR.. . Im just pointing out that the praise for Scott is well above that of Brown and I don’t think their seasons thus far warrant that much of a gap. Discuss….

 

[meistro]

I would say it's because Brown has been around for much longer and he's just now starting to control his bad decisions. Plus, Scott is scoring at a nice clip as a freshman. If he's still making silly mistakes as a junior, I won't be happy. Brown has started to make shots and that's made a world of difference in his effectiveness, because teams now have to guard him on the perimeter.

 

[sycamorebacker]

"Both are fairly high TO players and capable of doing incredibly stupid things"

I don't agree with this. You are being way too critical. (and I'm talking about the trend they are on now in which they are both getting better and better)

DDB is 6th in the MVC in A/TO ratio. With all that he does for us, you are complaining about "stupid" play?

 

[Southgrad07]

"Both are fairly high TO players and capable of doing incredibly stupid things"

I don't agree with this. You are being way too critical. (and I'm talking about the trend they are on now in which they are both getting better an better)

Well if u want to just use a 4-5 game "trend" you can skew stats in some way to make just about any argument you want to make with any player. I'm talking about more than just a trend here. I'm trying to sum up their performances for the better part of the season. Sure they are both getting better, but I still see many wtf moments out of both. I don't think either have done enough to shake that title yet.

 

[sycamorebacker]

Well if u want to just use a 4-5 game "trend" you can skew stats in some way to make just about any argument you want to make with any player. I'm talking about more than just a trend here. I'm trying to sum up their performances for the better part of the season. Sure they are both getting better, but I still see many wtf moments out of both. I don't think either have done enough to shake that title yet.

There has been talk on here about Scott being Freshman of the Year and Brown being all-conference. Why do you think we are 3rd in the conference and our back court is being called the most underrated in the conference?

 

[Southgrad07]

There has been talk on here about Scott being Freshman of the Year and Brown being all-conference. Why do you think we are 3rd in the conference and our back court is being called the most underrated in the conference?

Can they not be good players and having great conference seasons but still have flaws?? I mean seriously I rained praise on both except for one thing and that's what u choose to comment on....

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

There has been talk on here about Scott being Freshman of the Year and Brown being all-conference. Why do you think we are 3rd in the conference and our back court is being called the most underrated in the conference?

Dude relax... You don't have the benefit of knowing SouthG and having about 100 conversations about Brown over the course of the last 4 years but he is as big of a supporter of Brown as you will find.

Just humor him and have a conversation - he is being "semi critical" in attempt to have a fair and unbias conversation. Again, I understad you don't have the benefit of being inside his head on this topic but get off it already.

He posed a question and its a fair question. Its not some attempt to make our players look bad or talk bad about them. He gave pros and cons on both players and was very fair.

Fact is, I've been out-spoken about Brown in the past so I was VERY and remain interested in hearing what people have to say about this topic - not you constantly being on the defensive about our backcourt. You haven't been singled out and this thread is not negative at all. I would have preferred to sit back and read/listen but I can't do that with constant BS being posted.

 

[sycamorebacker]

After watching yesterday's game, I would say for sure now that Tre is, and is going to be, an excellent PG for us.

 

[sycamorebacker]

Dude relax... You don't have the benefit of knowing THSouth and having about 100 conversations about Brown over the course of the last 4 years but he is as big of a supporter of Brown as you will find.

Just humor him and have a conversation - he is being "semi critical" in attempt to have a fair and unbias conversation. Again, I understad you don't have the benefit of being inside his head on this topic but get off it already.

He posed a question and its a fair question. Its not some attempt to make our players look bad or talk bad about them. He gave pros and cons on both players and was very fair.

Fact is, I've been out-spoken about Brown in the past so I was VERY and remain interested in hearing what people have to say about this topic - not you constantly being on the defensive about our backcourt. You haven't been singled out and this thread is not negative at all. I would have preferred to sit back and read/listen but I can't do that with constant BS being posted.

Well, in response to his original question, I would just propose that, with all of the criticism and praise on both players on this forum, it probably all evens out to be fair. There should be a difference in expected performance based on their experience. It's taken 2 1/2 years for DDB to get to where he is today. He has a lot of skill now that really did not come natural for him and he has had to work for it.
When BS is a JR, he will have his share of criticism for bad plays or bad games. And we will all "expect" progress. You do have to cut FR some slack.

 

[meistro]

"Both are fairly high TO players and capable of doing incredibly stupid things"

I don't agree with this. You are being way too critical. (and I'm talking about the trend they are on now in which they are both getting better and better)

DDB is 6th in the MVC in A/TO ratio. With all that he does for us, you are complaining about "stupid" play?

I thought it was a fair question. We do tend to get on Brown more for his dumb mistakes. If you don't think they're still making dumb mistakes, I'm not sure what games you're watching. They're getting better but still have a ways to go with their decision making. As good as they were yesterday, they both still made unforced, stupid mistakes that cost us points or a possession. That being said, I'm ecstatic with their improvement and wouldn't trade them for another guard combo in the league other than Baker/Vanvleet

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

Well, in response to his original question, I would just propose that, with all of the criticism and praise on both players on this forum, it probably all evens out to be fair. There should be a difference in expected performance based on their experience. It's taken 2 1/2 years for DDB to get to where he is today. He has a lot of skill now that really did not come natural for him and he has had to work for it.
When BS is a JR, he will have his share of criticism for bad plays or bad games. And we will all "expect" progress. You do have to cut FR some slack.

Thank you very much, insightful and more along the lines of what he was looking for.

 

[sycamorebacker]

- not you constantly being on the defensive about our backcourt.

You're right. I am defensive. It's just in my nature.

I apologize.

PS. It's not just the back court. Criticism of the coaching and other stuff cuts me like a knife.

 

[IndyTreeFan]

It's very simple - freshman vs junior. That's why DDB gets more crap on here than BS. But you must also note that while DDB makes people want to kick their dog, it is also becoming accepted that he is, in fact, our MVP this season. BS isn't that far behind him, so I think his ceiling is much higher than DDB's, DDB is in many ways carrying us right now. They give us complementary games, and that makes us harder to defend.

It's so nice to be having discussions like this and not what we would have been discussing had these guys not turned it on in the MVC! For an example, go read the E'ville board...:cheeky:

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

You're right. I am defensive. It's just in my nature.

I apologize.

PS. It's not just the back court. Criticism of the coaching and other stuff cuts me like a knife.

Its okay - again I have the benefit of having already had this very conversation with him so he knows how I feel and I know why he posed the question - I prefered to see what you and others had to say first.

 

[sycamorebacker]

I thought it was a fair question. We do tend to get on Brown more for his dumb mistakes. If you don't think they're still making dumb mistakes, I'm not sure what games you're watching. They're getting better but still have a ways to go with their decision making. As good as they were yesterday, they both still made unforced, stupid mistakes that cost us points or a possession. That being said, I'm ecstatic with their improvement and wouldn't trade them for another guard combo in the league other than Baker/Vanvleet

I just want to point out, that you do NOT want players to play perfectly. They must be encouraged to react immediately to what appears to them as an opportunity. It's like a pitcher throwing too many strikes. You need to take chances to be unpredictable.

 

[Bluethunder]

This is a tough question to answer, because in many ways it can be more of a personal, "gut" feeling and those can be hard to explain.

For me, I think it comes down to four things, not in any order.

First, Devonte came in from Texas and nobody really knew who he was or what his game was. No one had really seen him play so he was pretty much a blank slate. As the saying goes, you never get a second chance to make a first impression, and because he tries very hard he made a lot of mistakes and wasn't good handling the ball or making decisions. The die began to be cast. I began to get the impression that he was that type of player and would probably notice more of the negative then I should have. Contrast that with Scott, who many on this board saw in high school and AAU and a different type of narrative was written about him, so we all expected to see great things, and therefore we have begun to focus primarily on his good plays and not as much on his negative play.

Second, you cannot discount that Scott is a redshirt freshman and Brown is a redshirt junior. Four years in the program and two and a half on the court v. one year in the system and half a season on the court.

Third, for me personally, I can recall numerous articles and quotes from players, coaches and Golden stating how hard Devonte works, how much he asks questions, how much he wants to improve, how much he wants to learn, etc. I believe them and take them at their word, but when I hear these things and then see something like that 3 point shot yesterday with about 5 minutes to go, I think "what the hell?" How can this young man work so hard and try to learn so much and still make a terrible play like that? The two don't seem to mesh.

Finally, it is not the total number of Devonte's turnovers, it is the time and the place. I can live with a turnover where he beats his man off the dribble and takes it in and gets called for a charge. I can live with a turnover where he attempts a pass inside the lane to an open teammate that gets knocked down. What I cannot take (like in the game against SIU) is him turning the ball over 40 feet from the basket. Him dribbling it off his foot or throwing a pass to an open teammate at their feet or 3 feet to their side. Or him driving into three players and instead of passing it out or stopping two feet short and hitting a short jumper he just barrels into two or three defenders. Those turnovers will never be acceptable and as much as I like Devonte's fire and energy and toughness he still has too many turnovers where their really is no excuse or idea what he is doing.

Just my two cents.....

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

This is a tough question to answer, because in many ways it can be more of a personal, "gut" feeling and those can be hard to explain.

For me, I think it comes down to four things, not in any order.

First, Devonte came in from Texas and nobody really knew who he was or what his game was. No one had really seen him play so he was pretty much a blank slate. As the saying goes, you never get a second chance to make a first impression, and because he tries very hard he made a lot of mistakes and wasn't good handling the ball or making decisions. The die began to be cast. I began to get the impression that he was that type of player and would probably notice more of the negative then I should have. Contrast that with Scott, who many on this board saw in high school and AAU and a different type of narrative was written about him, so we all expected to see great things, and therefore we have begun to focus primarily on his good plays and not as much on his negative play.

Second, you cannot discount that Scott is a redshirt freshman and Brown is a redshirt junior. Four years in the program and two and a half on the court v. one year in the system and half a season on the court.

Third, for me personally, I can recall numerous articles and quotes from players, coaches and Golden stating how hard Devonte works, how much he asks questions, how much he wants to improve, how much he wants to learn, etc. I believe them and take them at their word, but when I hear these things and then see something like that 3 point shot yesterday with about 5 minutes to go, I think "what the hell?" How can this young man work so hard and try to learn so much and still make a terrible play like that? The two don't seem to mesh.

Finally, it is not the total number of Devonte's turnovers, it is the time and the place. I can live with a turnover where he beats his man off the dribble and takes it in and gets called for a charge. I can live with a turnover where he attempts a pass inside the lane to an open teammate that gets knocked down. What I cannot take (like in the game against SIU) is him turning the ball over 40 feet from the basket. Him dribbling it off his foot or throwing a pass to an open teammate at their feet or 3 feet to their side. Or him driving into three players and instead of passing it out or stopping two feet short and hitting a short jumper he just barrels into two or three defenders. Those turnovers will never be acceptable and as much as I like Devonte's fire and energy and toughness he still has too many turnovers where their really is no excuse or idea what he is doing.

Just my two cents.....

Very well said, that is good stuff no matter how you see this.

 

[meistro]

This is a tough question to answer, because in many ways it can be more of a personal, "gut" feeling and those can be hard to explain.

For me, I think it comes down to four things, not in any order.

First, Devonte came in from Texas and nobody really knew who he was or what his game was. No one had really seen him play so he was pretty much a blank slate. As the saying goes, you never get a second chance to make a first impression, and because he tries very hard he made a lot of mistakes and wasn't good handling the ball or making decisions. The die began to be cast. I began to get the impression that he was that type of player and would probably notice more of the negative then I should have. Contrast that with Scott, who many on this board saw in high school and AAU and a different type of narrative was written about him, so we all expected to see great things, and therefore we have begun to focus primarily on his good plays and not as much on his negative play.

Second, you cannot discount that Scott is a redshirt freshman and Brown is a redshirt junior. Four years in the program and two and a half on the court v. one year in the system and half a season on the court.

Third, for me personally, I can recall numerous articles and quotes from players, coaches and Golden stating how hard Devonte works, how much he asks questions, how much he wants to improve, how much he wants to learn, etc. I believe them and take them at their word, but when I hear these things and then see something like that 3 point shot yesterday with about 5 minutes to go, I think "what the hell?" How can this young man work so hard and try to learn so much and still make a terrible play like that? The two don't seem to mesh.

Finally, it is not the total number of Devonte's turnovers, it is the time and the place. I can live with a turnover where he beats his man off the dribble and takes it in and gets called for a charge. I can live with a turnover where he attempts a pass inside the lane to an open teammate that gets knocked down. What I cannot take (like in the game against SIU) is him turning the ball over 40 feet from the basket. Him dribbling it off his foot or throwing a pass to an open teammate at their feet or 3 feet to their side. Or him driving into three players and instead of passing it out or stopping two feet short and hitting a short jumper he just barrels into two or three defenders. Those turnovers will never be acceptable and as much as I like Devonte's fire and energy and toughness he still has too many turnovers where their really is no excuse or idea what he is doing.

Just my two cents.....

My thoughts exactly

 

[Jason Svoboda]

Shouldn't people be harder on Scott or better yet... have higher expectations?

I point back to THIS THREAD where I talked about how good Devonte was in the early year despite having his problems. Since this point he's only gotten better. At that point in time, Devonte was shooting 27.5% from 3, 38% from the field, 68.8% from the line and averaging 3.7 turnovers per game. He's now at 39.3% from 3, 49.2% from the floor, 63.6% from the line and averaging 3.3 turnovers per game. He's done that while bumpimg his assists from 2.0 to 2.9 per game.

Brown was an unrated and unknown recruit out of Texas compared to Brenton's 3-star status. Devonte was recruited by pretty much nobody (we were his best offer by a long shot) while Brenton had several MVC and MAC level offers. You could make a case that Devonte has had phenomenal development during his time at Indiana State and has turned into an All-Valley performer. All the while, we've got Brenton developing very rapidly as well. His biggest issue is he is a below average defender right now and happens to give up as many points (or more) than he scores. If/when he commits to the defensive side of the ball, we may have one of, if not the best back court in the Valley.

 

[sycamorebacker]

Shouldn't people be harder on Scott or better yet... have higher expectations?

I point back to THIS THREAD where I talked about how good Devonte was in the early year despite having his problems. Since this point he's only gotten better. At that point in time, Devonte was shooting 27.5% from 3, 38% from the field, 68.8% from the line and averaging 3.7 turnovers per game. He's now at 39.3% from 3, 49.2% from the floor, 63.6% from the line and averaging 3.3 turnovers per game. He's done that while bumpimg his assists from 2.0 to 2.9 per game.

Brown was an unrated and unknown recruit out of Texas compared to Brenton's 3-star status. Devonte was recruited by pretty much nobody (we were his best offer by a long shot) while Brenton had several MVC and MAC level offers. You could make a case that Devonte has had phenomenal development during his time at Indiana State and has turned into an All-Valley performer. All the while, we've got Brenton developing very rapidly as well. His biggest issue is he is a below average defender right now and happens to give up as many points (or more) than he scores. If/when he commits to the defensive side of the ball, we may have one of, if not the best back court in the Valley.

About all freshman struggle with defense. BS tries to put pressure on the ball, but you have to know when to back off, right? One time yesterday, I saw him get moved off the ball by an illegal screen. The next time down the floor, the refs called it. But anticipation and footwork on screens will be something he will learn.

I think we all agree that DDB is not a prototype PG. His TO's are usually from trying to do too much. I think his improved handle has given him a little too much confidence in feeling he can go places that he shouldn't be going. Hard work and experience have served him well. He's a credit to our program and I'm glad we have him.