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Golden Discusses Possible Shox Departure (Saturday 2/18 Trib-Star)
- Thread starter BankShot
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Bally #50
The JSW Level
Can't really argue his points. Missouri Valley then truly becomes the Missouri Valley again. Having said that, As the farthest eastern school in the MVC, my opinion on the MVC has "morphed" in the past decade, and I now believe Indiana State should find (or help form) a conference that makes geographical sense to US.
C
Coach
Guest
If the Shocks really want to make a move they best do it soon. When someone buys Marshall & it will happen no matter what kind of a deal he has in remote Wichita the Shocks will slip back to the pack in the Valley & their heyday will be past history. Sure he does not care to always be considered to be behind KU & KSU in the state much like Butler always looked at after IU & PU even if they are better many years. North Carolina State might grab him up this time around?
Westbadenboy
The All-MVC Level
Coach -- I think your comment made exactly the opposite point. Everyone here scoffed at Butler moving up in conferences the past 10 -- 12 years. Just wait till they get into the Big East ...........well, they've done quite well (even as they've changed coaches over the years).
Not saying the same thing will happen if Wichita moves up from the MVC, but don't count it out. They have a great and loyal fan base, a lot of publicity from the past years, and some big financial backers. Where they could go without a major football program I don't really see, but I would not say they are destined to fall back into an average program (MVC or otherwise). Creighton has also done pretty well since leaving the MVC -- and anyone who thinks trading Creighton (18,000 in the building and some pretty good national exposure) for Loyola (1200 in the building and NO ONE cares) was ok for the MVC -- you're nuts !
ISU, with decades of bad decisions, terrible marketing, stupid planning, and total neglect at times has never been able to get any momentum. Still waiting to see any consistent change.
Not saying the same thing will happen if Wichita moves up from the MVC, but don't count it out. They have a great and loyal fan base, a lot of publicity from the past years, and some big financial backers. Where they could go without a major football program I don't really see, but I would not say they are destined to fall back into an average program (MVC or otherwise). Creighton has also done pretty well since leaving the MVC -- and anyone who thinks trading Creighton (18,000 in the building and some pretty good national exposure) for Loyola (1200 in the building and NO ONE cares) was ok for the MVC -- you're nuts !
ISU, with decades of bad decisions, terrible marketing, stupid planning, and total neglect at times has never been able to get any momentum. Still waiting to see any consistent change.
I think WSU will do fine anywhere they go.
As far as change here at ISU; don't count on it. Our campus, school, and competition for players sticks ISU right where it is. We are what we are destined to be.
What's the downside if WSU leaves? It just seems our path to NCAA tournament appearances gets easier if they're gone. Isn't that what we're playing for? I'd much prefer more MVC championships and NCAA tournament appearances. I mean, I like engaging with WSU fans and I think they're a classy program, but they're not pulling up others with them. Look at Gonzaga. Do you think others in the WCC would like to see them gone so not one team dominates every year?
That's my naïve viewpoint, and I'll admit that. I really would like to hear some arguments as to why this would actually be bad for ISU if WSU leaves.
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honestly there are pros-cons for both if they are stay or if they go. for me personally, I would love for ISU to get on at least a Northern Iowa type level of success. I don't want our success to come from the absence of the big dog (wichita), I want to help build the conference perception, win tournaments/championships, and fight the big dog for top of the conference year in and year out. Would we be more successful in terms of wins and losses with wichita gone? yes. But I think our ceiling for success gets lowered every time a big dog moves on.
Daveinth
The Wade Level
This is a yawn . Let them leave. Everyone worried the same crap when Creighton left and all the others. What's the point in discussing this issue every year.
I don't think it's naive. There has been the theory that a rising tide lifts all boats but that hasn't proven to be the case. Each school has their own unique challenges and if you ask Wichita State fans on their forum about Valley teams they just say dump more money into your program and schedule tougher. If it were only that simple.
The MVC didn't exactly 'trade' creighton for loyola...
agree that creighton leaving has hurt; chiefly in that it was a good, stable program
Who would YOU have selected to replace Creighton? And remember, a BIG reason (and Golden touched on it), the Valley wanted a non-football program
And when Butler has the SAME success as a big east program they had in the Horizon, THEN I'll believe they've arrived...
agree, plenty of bad decisions and neglect... though low $$$ usually mean 'neglect'
ISU isn't exactly a RICH program / school...
sycamore tuff
The Wade Level
Valpo!
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Westbadenboy
The All-MVC Level
All I'm saying is that its pretty silly to say "let'em go !" ..........we don't care .......etc.
Never mind .........at some point maybe the MVC will become like a Class A high school conference/sectional in Indiana --- then we can all go "YIPEEEE !"
we beat a bunch of other little, unknown guys ......"YIPEEEE !"
Ya' think ESPN (Not ESPN3) will show many games from a very average MVC. Wonder if CBS will be putting the MVC Arch Madness on national TV if our powers take off ? Think the MVC will continue to play Arch Madness in a huge arena if this happens ?
Think of it --- if we could just get Wichita, Ill State and UNI out of the MVC ............Wow --- we could win a couple a couple titles at the renamed "Arch Silliness" played over at some Jr college gym just outside St. Louis (and covered by ESPN3 -- Available Everywhere -- Being Watched ...Nowhere)
Never mind .........at some point maybe the MVC will become like a Class A high school conference/sectional in Indiana --- then we can all go "YIPEEEE !"
we beat a bunch of other little, unknown guys ......"YIPEEEE !"
Ya' think ESPN (Not ESPN3) will show many games from a very average MVC. Wonder if CBS will be putting the MVC Arch Madness on national TV if our powers take off ? Think the MVC will continue to play Arch Madness in a huge arena if this happens ?
Think of it --- if we could just get Wichita, Ill State and UNI out of the MVC ............Wow --- we could win a couple a couple titles at the renamed "Arch Silliness" played over at some Jr college gym just outside St. Louis (and covered by ESPN3 -- Available Everywhere -- Being Watched ...Nowhere)
niklz62
The JSW Level
I doubt they would have the tournament in a place worse than the average home venue
Since losing Creighton, and now possibly Wichita, Arch Madness is a big issue. I remember it used to be very hard to get a decent hotel in St. Louis that weekend. The last few years its been easy and affordable. I just checked this morning and there are PLENTY of rooms available downtown that weekend though some have upped their prices a little. If Wichita leaves, Arch Madness will be sparsely attended (compared to all prior years). Sadly, that is a weekend that St. Louis relies on economically and it will be hit by at least a 20 if not 30 percent decline in hotel, restaurant, and other ancillary spending. They have also lost NFL football crowds as well.
If SIU gets even better it could really help. The 2002-2007 years saw SIU fans pack the place. I know personally they are horribly fair weather. If they are an NCAA tournament team all the Chicago SIU alums (there are 10s of thousands of them) get excited and come down (the suites in ScottTrade were filled with SIU people those years if you looked). I am also curious to see what happens if Loyola gets hot and goes to the NCAA in the next few years. There could be some alumni and fair weather Chicago fans otherwise that may start coming down to STL for them.
As it stands now, losing Wichita will hurt the MVC in power ranking obviously, but financially there will be a sting reverberating throughout, especially in St. Louis the first weekend in March.
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niklz62
The JSW Level
there are some interesting dynamics if WSU left. would we be a 1 bid league? are we a 1 bid league now if they win the tournament? it seems like our current team wouldnt be making much difference if they werent in the league now right? I could see how if we improved a little and were contending for a possible tournament win it could make us look much better. I could see it being like when EIU left the Gateway. they werent a bad program but they have made the fcs tournament a couple times and got steamrolled by a gateway/mvfc team. I guess a lot is perspective.
Westbadenboy
The All-MVC Level
My God ..........what are you guys smokin' ?
NIKLZ62 -- I think you missed the point -- I wasn't really saying they'd play in a jr college gym ........dahhhhhh !
Hooper --- Loyola fans won't drive 5 - 10 miles to see their team play one of the better teams in America -- they ain't coming down to St. Louis anytime soon. Hell, the term "Loyola fan" is one of those oxymorons (sp ?)
NIKLZ62 -- I think you missed the point -- I wasn't really saying they'd play in a jr college gym ........dahhhhhh !
Hooper --- Loyola fans won't drive 5 - 10 miles to see their team play one of the better teams in America -- they ain't coming down to St. Louis anytime soon. Hell, the term "Loyola fan" is one of those oxymorons (sp ?)
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Bally #50
The JSW Level
If I remember correctly, there were LESS than 1500 at our game. Obviously the SYC's aren't a big draw.
College athletics attendance is down significantly at ALL levels including at the SEC schools. Saban begs students to stay entire games at Alabama. Attendance is something fans care for with regards to atmosphere and it's something schools care about in terms of making money.
As to Wichita State leaving for greener pastures or staying, it doesn't really move the needle with regards to us. Whatever conference they're in, they're going to continue to have the same program support which equates to funding which equates to giving them a punchers chance. They already sell out damn near every game against shitty MVC teams so if they even take a slight step up that will increase demand further with more names coming into town which will let them increase ticket prices which will mean even more cash flowing into the program.
We could have Butler and IU in the Hulman Center every night and we'd still cap out at 8000-9000 with several thousand of them (including Sycamore alums) wearing their IU/Butler gear. Our issues are long term and systematic. They go beyond athletics. It's going to take years of focused and dedicated effort to build a fan base that would in turn put cash into our programs.
As to Wichita State leaving for greener pastures or staying, it doesn't really move the needle with regards to us. Whatever conference they're in, they're going to continue to have the same program support which equates to funding which equates to giving them a punchers chance. They already sell out damn near every game against shitty MVC teams so if they even take a slight step up that will increase demand further with more names coming into town which will let them increase ticket prices which will mean even more cash flowing into the program.
We could have Butler and IU in the Hulman Center every night and we'd still cap out at 8000-9000 with several thousand of them (including Sycamore alums) wearing their IU/Butler gear. Our issues are long term and systematic. They go beyond athletics. It's going to take years of focused and dedicated effort to build a fan base that would in turn put cash into our programs.
We're a 1 bid league and the super conferences will see to it as they expand and suck up the MM outliers.
Good post! I couldn't agree more.