[December 21, 2025] Indiana State (7-5) at Illinois State (9-3)

[SycamoreStateofMind]

I was more speaking on the entirety of the season's collective good starts. Of course that blistering start yesterday wasn't sustainable, I know that. I am talking about when we start off games playing well, good player movement, ball moving lively from player to player, leaving good shots for better ones that sort of thing. Maybe I'm wrong, but it feels like when we start the game that way, it never lasts long. Then, within minutes its like a completely different team took the court. Is that not what everyone else has noticed? I don't have to time to look deep right now, but seriously, have we had a game where we started off playing well, and it ended in a win? Hell, I'll even accept one of the non DI games as an example.

The best example I can think of right now is the SIUE game. I know we started off well and played most of the 1st half well building a sizeable advantage, then if I recall, we gave it all up in the last few minutes of the half. It felt like in the blink of an eye. We did end up winning, so I guess I've answered my own question here, but it wasn't so much us playing well, but more like SIUE player worse the rest of the game.

That’s all fine… But like, 6-0 and 9-5 is really not that good of a start. It’s a two possession game. What wasn’t sustainable is the fact that they were not going to just leave Ian Scott open all night and let him shoot them out of the gym - once he made his first three they said enough with that shit which is what good teams do.

I think in all reality it felt like a much better start than what it really was because you got 9 early points from Scott/Vorst and our “shooters” hadn’t really got going and never did… This discussion did force me to go back and look at the play-by-play to see what the actual start looked like and to my surprise it wasn't even a good start it was an okay start.

Perhaps, because the expectations are low it felt like a much better start than it actually was? I’m not sure - just trying to offer some possibilities. I really don’t want any of those 40 minutes of game film to make the highlight tape. Them leaving Vorst and Scott open are not highlights or good execution - it’s just ILState settling into the game and making a single adjustment to get a hand on Scott done.

 

[BlueBleeder]

That’s all fine… But like, 6-0 and 9-5 is really not that good of a start. It’s a two possession game. What wasn’t sustainable is the fact that they were not going to just leave Ian Scott open all night and let him shoot them out of the gym - once he made his first three they said enough with that shit which is what good teams do.

I think in all reality it felt like a much better start than what it really was because you got 9 early points from Scott/Vorst and our “shooters” hadn’t really got going and never did… This discussion did force me to go back and look at the play-by-play to see what the actual start looked like and to my surprise it wasn't even a good start it was an okay start.

Perhaps, because the expectations are low it felt like a much better start than it actually was? I’m not sure - just trying to offer some possibilities. I really don’t want any of those 40 minutes of game film to make the highlight tape. Them leaving Vorst and Scott open are not highlights or good execution - it’s just ILState settling into the game and making a single adjustment to get a hand on Scott done.

Yeah, fair points. I wasn't so much meaning if we had a sizable lead or anything, just merely the fact we played well. I guess it doesn't really matter, i was just looking for something to talk about. We can move on.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

Yeah, fair points. I wasn't so much meaning if we had a sizable lead or anything, just merely the fact we played well. I guess it doesn't really matter, i was just looking for something to talk about. We can move on.

No... I mean nothing else to talk about by all means - we can talk about how much we sucked for the next 36 minutes if you or anyone else would like to focus on that? I am sure that will put everyone in the holiday spirit.

In the last 4 games we haven't forced a team double digit turnovers - Southern In had 9 four games ago. Last night IlState had 4 turnovers. We lack so much athletic ability, physicality, speed and length at all 5 positions.

 

[Jason Svoboda]

We lack so much athletic ability, physicality, speed and length at all 5 positions.

This is the reality and all it boils down to.

At times under Lansing, we questioned recruiting when he would wait to the 11th hour and bring in a guy like Burnett, Paige, etc. BUT at least he usually had the top 3-4 of the roster stacked with plus level MVC talent. I can honestly say that I do not believe we have a single All-MVC level player this year. The closest we have is Camp but he is not good enough defensively compared to others to take a spot. He'd need to be an offensive juggernaut to get away with his defensive liabilities and he's been just hovering around average with above average flashes here and there.

Jimmy's and Joe's over X's and O's. If the next class doesn't come in and perform, we'll have to start having the discussion about this staff having issues with talent identification. Also, NIL isn't a scapegoat here because there are programs out there that are recruiting well despite being poorer than us.

 

[jturner38]

This is the reality and all it boils down to.

At times under Lansing, we questioned recruiting when he would wait to the 11th hour and bring in a guy like Burnett, Paige, etc. BUT at least he usually had the top 3-4 of the roster stacked with plus level MVC talent. I can honestly say that I do not believe we have a single All-MVC level player this year. The closest we have is Camp but he is not good enough defensively compared to others to take a spot. He'd need to be an offensive juggernaut to get away with his defensive liabilities and he's been just hovering around average with above average flashes here and there.

Jimmy's and Joe's over X's and O's. If the next class doesn't come in and perform, we'll have to start having the discussion about this staff having issues with talent identification. Also, NIL isn't a scapegoat here because there are programs out there that are recruiting well despite being poorer than us.

Yeah next season to me most likely dictates Graves future (Fair or unfair)

I agree with everything you just said. NIL is also not an excuse because while it's not Murray State's bag we aren't at the very bottom either.

 

[SycamoreBlue3209]

This is the reality and all it boils down to.

At times under Lansing, we questioned recruiting when he would wait to the 11th hour and bring in a guy like Burnett, Paige, etc. BUT at least he usually had the top 3-4 of the roster stacked with plus level MVC talent. I can honestly say that I do not believe we have a single All-MVC level player this year. The closest we have is Camp but he is not good enough defensively compared to others to take a spot. He'd need to be an offensive juggernaut to get away with his defensive liabilities and he's been just hovering around average with above average flashes here and there.

Jimmy's and Joe's over X's and O's. If the next class doesn't come in and perform, we'll have to start having the discussion about this staff having issues with talent identification. Also, NIL isn't a scapegoat here because there are programs out there that are recruiting well despite being poorer than us.

Not just talent evaluation, but where are we actually spending our NIL dollars? If #'s are correct, the staff had around $500k to spend...from the #'s I have heard, I don't see how we spent any more than $250k on this roster (maybe less??). I get not spending it all at once, but if not now, when?

Unfortunately, in this era, we are pretty much playing one year at a time. We need to go for it with what we have each portal season and then worry about trying to "retain" talent when we get to that point.
Just spending isn't always going to result in a special season, but neither is spending $200k on a roster full of non-athletes, average shooters, no skilled 5, etc.

Luck is still a factor here though. The staff never imagined last year that we would get the season we got from Samage Teel...the opposite is happening for Mr. Sterling Young.

 

[Jason Svoboda]

Yeah next season to me most likely dictates Graves future (Fair or unfair)

I agree with everything you just said. NIL is also not an excuse because while it's not Murray State's bag we aren't at the very bottom either.

Yep, I think you're spot on with regards to his future.

I do feel for coaches today because recruiting is more difficult. There is also now the added "slider bar dynamic" of how much to pay. You overpay on the wrong guy or two, it can completely ruin your prospects for the year. That said, at the end of the day, you should still be able to determine if 1) the kid can play at the MVC level and 2) they can shoot the ball, can score, etc.

I don't know how we ended up with a roster of such poor distance shooters when your entire offense is predicated on shooting accuracy. Usually when you forgo measurables, skills, or other charactistics that means you got plus where you wanted it.

 

[BlueBleeder]

Not just talent evaluation, but where are we actually spending our NIL dollars? If #'s are correct, the staff had around $500k to spend...from the #'s I have heard, I don't see how we spent any more than $250k on this roster (maybe less??). I get not spending it all at once, but if not now, when?

Unfortunately, in this era, we are pretty much playing one year at a time. We need to go for it with what we have each portal season and then worry about trying to "retain" talent when we get to that point.
Just spending isn't always going to result in a special season, but neither is spending $200k on a roster full of non-athletes, average shooters, no skilled 5, etc.

Luck is still a factor here though. The staff never imagined last year that we would get the season we got from Samage Teel...the opposite is happening for Mr. Sterling Young.

I agree with you about our spending. If they were just trying to save for a bigger expenditure later thats likely to backfire. You put out a poor product and people will stop giving to your NIL. We look like morons if we had the money to keep JD but didnt....and now he's having a good season for A-10 contender, Richmond.

@SycamoreStateofMind sadly, you're right. It all boils down to lack of athleticism across the board, which makes you really question way our most athletic guy doesn't play more...the only reason I can see is his abysmal free throw shooting....but not sure thats enough for me to play him so little. I wasn't trying to be confrontational about anything, was just asking if anyone else had noticed that trend. Hopefully we can salvage enough out of this season that donors won't pull back for upcoming seasons. Sorry I dragged down the mood.

 

[jturner38]

I agree with you about our spending. If they were just trying to save for a bigger expenditure later thats likely to backfire. You put out a poor product and people will stop giving to your NIL. We look like morons if we had the money to keep JD but didnt....and now he's having a good season for A-10 contender, Richmond.

@SycamoreStateofMind sadly, your right. It all boils down to lack of athleticism across the board, which makes you really question way our most athletic guy doesn't play more...the only reason I can see is his abysmal free throw shooting....but not sure thats enough for me to play him so little. I wasn't trying to be confrontational about anything, was just asking if anyone else had noticed that trend. Hopefully we can salvage enough out of this season that donors won't pull back for upcoming seasons. Sorry I dragged down the mood.

Enel is a good athlete but with that being said we don't talk about his limitations as it stands. I've seen a few sets where he's in the corner and he really needs to develop the corner shot. That's what made J Kent dangerous besides his cutting. I don't wont to seem like I'm picking on him also will never compare any team to the 23-24 team however we know why that team worked offensively. The whole offense is predicated on shooting, spacing, and cutting and we do none of those things at above average level. Also We have to get taller (Which we will based on the next class) because we are undersized at every position for the most part.

 

[treeman]

Enel is a good athlete but with that being said we don't talk about his limitations as it stands. I've seen a few sets where he's in the corner and he really needs to develop the corner shot. That's what made J Kent dangerous besides his cutting.

The only people in danger of a JKent corner three were wearing blue. Seriously JKent was an awesome player for us but probably the worst corner 3 shooter I’ve ever seen. He had to be below 10% there. On the flip side, K’moni Doughty; while wasn’t nearly the player Kent was, he was however one of the best corner 3 guys we’ve had in a very long.

it’s really actually funny understanding certain players abilities on what constitutes as a “good shot” over the past few years we’ve had a couple of guys were good 3 point shooters but specifically good at one type of 3 point shot. For example:
K’moni - amazing shooter from the corner, maybe average anywhere else.
Voss - amazing shooter when he had a hand in his face. Wide open, he was just so-so.
Swope - had to shoot off the dribble, where he was deadly. His catch and shooting ability was sub-standard.
Kent - average 3 point shooter around the arc. Absolutely the worst shooter from the corners.
Avila - deadly from a pick and pop from the top of the key. Just average anywhere else.
Julian Larry - naturally, not a great shooter. But he might be the best “wide open” shooter I’ve ever seen. Seemed like this went in all the time, whereas as someone like swope just wasn’t good wide open.

I guess I wish the coaching staff would identity some of these tendency’s with the players and play to their strength, just doesn’t seem like there is a lot of “playing to their strength” out there

 

[jturner38]

The only people in danger of a JKent corner three were wearing blue. Seriously JKent was an awesome player for us but probably the worst corner 3 shooter I’ve ever seen. He had to be below 10% there. On the flip side, K’moni Doughty; while wasn’t nearly the player Kent was, he was however one of the best corner 3 guys we’ve had in a very long.

it’s really actually funny understanding certain players abilities on what constitutes as a “good shot” over the past few years we’ve had a couple of guys were good 3 point shooters but specifically good at one type of 3 point shot. For example:
K’moni - amazing shooter from the corner, maybe average anywhere else.
Voss - amazing shooter when he had a hand in his face. Wide open, he was just so-so.
Swope - had to shoot off the dribble, where he was deadly. His catch and shooting ability was sub-standard.
Kent - average 3 point shooter around the arc. Absolutely the worst shooter from the corners.
Avila - deadly from a pick and pop from the top of the key. Just average anywhere else.
Julian Larry - naturally, not a great shooter. But he might be the best “wide open” shooter I’ve ever seen. Seemed like this went in all the time, whereas as someone like swope just wasn’t good wide open.

I guess I wish the coaching staff would identity some of these tendency’s with the players and play to their strength, just doesn’t seem like there is a lot of “playing to their strength” out there

May have to disagree there. I know he shot 37% from 3 that season. If I'm wrong so be it I'll eat that. But K'moni was definitely a better corner 3 shooter. Pretty much spot on with those examples.

 

[BlueBleeder]

Enel is a good athlete but with that being said we don't talk about his limitations as it stands. I've seen a few sets where he's in the corner and he really needs to develop the corner shot. That's what made J Kent dangerous besides his cutting. I don't wont to seem like I'm picking on him also will never compare any team to the 23-24 team however we know why that team worked offensively. The whole offense is predicated on shooting, spacing, and cutting and we do none of those things at above average level. Also We have to get taller (Which we will based on the next class) because we are undersized at every position for the most part.

I'm sorry if I've made it sound like I think he's our team's savior. He absolutely has limitations...free throw shooting is terrible, and has no outside shot. But where he excels, we are poor at as a team. Rebounding and rim protection. So I guess what I'm saying is you let his athleticism get you 8-10 rebounds, be a rim protector and whatever you get out of him offensively is a bonus, but you should get atleast 6-8 points from him if he plays 25-30 minutes. Should a guy like that see that many minutes, no! But I would rather him get the minutes, especially with Harding out and see what he can give you with significant minutes.

 

[bigsportsfan]

I'm sorry if I've made it sound like I think he's our team's savior. He absolutely has limitations...free throw shooting is terrible, and has no outside shot. But where he excels, we are poor at as a team. Rebounding and rim protection. So I guess what I'm saying is you let his athleticism get you 8-10 rebounds, be a rim protector and whatever you get out of him offensively is a bonus, but you should get atleast 6-8 points from him if he plays 25-30 minutes, especially with . Should a guy like that see that many minutes, no! But I would rather him get the minutes, especially with Harding out and see what he can give you with significant minutes.

Enel’s athleticism is one more positive attribute than many players we trot out there every night have.

 

[DyedBlue]

Indiana State 65 at Illinois State 85


Player...................Minutes....................Rbds...............A/TO...................Points.............+/-.............Comments
Scott.......................30.75..........................2....................1/3.......................20...................-15.............As noted, hit bottom of rim 3-4 times on reverse layups. Pushed farther under bucket
Vorst.......................27.5............................5....................2/2.......................8......................-26.............Ouch!!
JVB...........................19.5..........................1......................0/1......................2.......................-19.............Certainly not a good start. Offense very ineffective. See below.
Wagner...................32.75........................7.....................1/1......................10....................-22..............Another good rebounding game
Hall..........................31.25........................2......................4/1......................11....................-11..............Another solid effort from Xavier, but had lots of trouble guarding Kinzinger
Young......................13.25.......................0......................0/2.......................4........................-15............Struggles continue; searching for consistency
ESB............................17.00........................5....................1/0.......................1..........................-7............Struggled at line; should be shooting 300/day
Alocen......................15.25........................1...................0/1.......................3..........................-7................Shut down Kinzinger who had 11 when he started guarding him
Bean...........................7.5............................0...................1/0.......................0........................+5..............Look at offensive output numbers below; offense was effective
Walker......................2.25...........................2..................1/0........................3.........................+5............. Only 2.25 minutes, but two boards and an assist at end of game
Nordheim...............2.25...........................0....................0/0......................0..........................+5............. Contributed or along for the ride?? I don't know
Huttenlocker..........1................................0....................0/0......................3.........................+1................Nailed a long game closing 3

Combinations Stats: at 1.50 PPM, the team scores 60 points; Need to be above 1.85 ppm to have a chance to win

Players.....................................................................................................+/-.................Minutes............PPM for group..........Pts/Possession for Group
JVB, CW.............IS, XH.....DV...................................................-5.....................11.5...................1.57.................................0.95................Pretty much on the game avereages
BA..................CW,...........IS, XH......DV..................................................-7......................5.0.....................0.4..................................0.26...........Offense tanked big time when BA entered
BA..................CW,............ESB, IS, XH..................................................+1......................5.0......................2.25..............................1.26..........DV out/ESB IN. Best Offensive numbers
SY.......JVB,..CW,............ESB...............DV..............................................-4......................2.5.....................1.18................................0.75...........Stuck in the mud
.......................CW, CBean, IS, XH, DV...............................................0........................2.5......................1.97.................................1.57...........Good offensive #'s
SY....BA....JVB...CW............................DV...............................................-6....................2.5........................1.25...................................0.77............Another set of JVB low numbers
SY.....................................ESB....Bean...IS,...XH....................................-1......................2.0......................1.90.................................1.39..............Second stint with Bean > 1.90 PPM
SY..................CW.............ESB..........XH....DV.......................................0.......................2.0........................1.49....................................1.00...............
SY.....BA.......JVB.....................IS.........DV...............................................-4.....................1.5..........................1.22.................................0.58...........Another low stint with BA
JW..BA...SNordheim,...ESB...CBean...........................................+7...................1.25.......................5.45...............................2.87..............Closed the gap against subs of Redbirds

Scoring Rate Date: How many points the team scored /minute when a player was on the floor. Only FIVE 5 players with more than one minute on the court had values where Indiana State scored at a higher PPM with them on the court than when they were off the court.

Bruno and St. Bernard played significant minutes at 15.25 and 17 each By far the biggest delta was when St. Bernard was on the court.
Cooper Bean was about 5 minutes with starters out of his 7.5
Walker & Nordheirm played only the closing 2.25 minutes.

Jayan Walker: 3.13 PPM ON; 1.54 PPM OFF. 2.25 total minutes
Cooper Bean: 2.26 PPM ON; 1.48 PPM OFF. 7.5 total minutes
Bruno Alocen: 1.78 PPM ON; 1.53 PPM OFF. 15.25 total minutes
Sievert Nordheim: 3.13 PPM On: 1.54 PPM OFF. 2.25 total minutes
E. St. Bernard: 2.06 PPM ON; 1.30 PPM OFF. 17 Minutes

 

[jturner38]

I'm sorry if I've made it sound like I think he's our team's savior. He absolutely has limitations...free throw shooting is terrible, and has no outside shot. But where he excels, we are poor at as a team. Rebounding and rim protection. So I guess what I'm saying is you let his athleticism get you 8-10 rebounds, be a rim protector and whatever you get out of him offensively is a bonus, but you should get atleast 6-8 points from him if he plays 25-30 minutes, especially with . Should a guy like that see that many minutes, no! But I would rather him get the minutes, especially with Harding out and see what he can give you with significant minutes.

Oh no you’re fine. There have been moments where he should have been playing and he wasn’t. I was just pointing out the overall issue we will with if he does get significant time.

 

[DyedBlue]

I was at the game. I was extremely impressed by the all-around improvement in Chase Walker's game. He has lost considerable weight but remains capable of bullying opposing interior players. And it is not just the bullying, rather, he displayed several moves employing classic big man mobility. There is a lot more finesse in his game now. (But he can STILL bull his way to his objective when desired.)

Overall, Illinois State was just a physically stronger and generally quicker team. Hard to beat that.