[December 29, 2024] Indiana State (8-4) at Ohio State (8-4)

[Bluethunder]

Interesting KenPom article with ISU/poor refs at the forefront.

A path to slightly more consistent officiating

Let the FAA be your guide

kenpom.substack.com

Basically what I came away with from the article and my own two eyes while sitting at the ISU-OSU game is that Paul Szelc is a garbage official.

He is a garbage official because he makes the one critical error an umpire, official, referee, etc cannot make, he assumes fouls. He sees something about to happen, and assumes a foul is likely, or in the case of Legree above, he sees a guy miss the layup and he assumes contact caused him to miss. He didn't see the contact, but he assumes that is what caused the miss.

How many times can you watch a game where a guy drives to the basket, shoots a layup, and about one second after it falls of the rim, then the whistle blows. Same thing, ref assumes that it had to be contact that caused the player to miss the basket.

 

[RunSyc]

25 against a big 10 team is pretty impressive. I would say he is exceeding expectations.

Nah, I believed he was capable of this. He showed flashes of greatness as a freshman.

Glad JD is a Sycamore. Coolest thing is that he has a lot of room for further improvement. Want great things for the guy. Heart warming to hear AG talking about JD's maturation in Evansville's post game radio with Joey O. AG sounds like an effective mentor/leader. Enjoyed watching both of them on the court simultaneously at Evansville.

 

[RunSyc]

Basically what I came away with from the article and my own two eyes while sitting at the ISU-OSU game is that Paul Szelc is a garbage official.

He is a garbage official because he makes the one critical error an umpire, official, referee, etc cannot make, he assumes fouls. He sees something about to happen, and assumes a foul is likely, or in the case of Legree above, he sees a guy miss the layup and he assumes contact caused him to miss. He didn't see the contact, but he assumes that is what caused the miss.

How many times can you watch a game where a guy drives to the basket, shoots a layup, and about one second after it falls of the rim, then the whistle blows. Same thing, ref assumes that it had to be contact that caused the player to miss the basket.

Exactly, that's how our team gets a few "phantom" calls every season.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

Basically what I came away with from the article and my own two eyes while sitting at the ISU-OSU game is that Paul Szelc is a garbage official.

He is a garbage official because he makes the one critical error an umpire, official, referee, etc cannot make, he assumes fouls. He sees something about to happen, and assumes a foul is likely, or in the case of Legree above, he sees a guy miss the layup and he assumes contact caused him to miss. He didn't see the contact, but he assumes that is what caused the miss.

How many times can you watch a game where a guy drives to the basket, shoots a layup, and about one second after it falls of the rim, then the whistle blows. Same thing, ref assumes that it had to be contact that caused the player to miss the basket.

I read part of the article - it got pretty technical for me so admittedly I didn't read the entire thing.

I mean... We didn't lose the OSU game because we got a bad whistle to be clear. We shot 32 free-throws, they shot 41. JD who attacked the rim most frequently for us shot 15 by himself. So without reading the entire article I can tell you they were "rewarding" contact both ways for players who attacked the rim.

The OSU game is probably a bad example for this because the disparity in athletic ability was pretty apparent - but most of the time good players can recognize how officials are calling a game and adjust based on that both defensively in how they defend and offensively how they attack. I have to think late in the Bradley game Teel and KD both recognized that they were calling everything a foul so long as you got to the rim - watching that live a lot of them were indeed fouls - but they probably got a couple gifts as well.

It's never fun when officials anticipate contact that never materializes, are inconsistent in how they call the game from one end of the floor to the other or one half to the next and when an official bases a call on the outcome of the play i.e. I am not going to blow this whistle if he makes the shot but if he misses I will late whistle foul. Like that shit is infuriating. At the end of the day - overall I feel like we've been pretty fortunate with how officials have called our games this year. Maybe Graves in his "I shall not bitch at the refs" attitude works?!

The worst call and not because of recency bias - was Saturday when they refused after looking at the monitor to overturn the ball out on Evansville. Clear as day it was out on Evansville in a crucial moment of the game. Very easily could have changed the outcome. That was the worst call of the season far and away.

 

[Bluethunder]

The worst call and not because of recency bias - was Saturday when they refused after looking at the monitor to overturn the ball out on Evansville. Clear as day it was out on Evansville in a crucial moment of the game. Very easily could have changed the outcome. That was the worst call of the season far and away.

This ^ probably drives me more nuts than anything. I get people are human and the game is fast, you will never be able to catch everything or get everything right. But when you go to a monitor, look at it from five different angles and three different speeds, and still cannot get the call right, then what the hell are we doing out here?

 

[BlueBleeder]

I read part of the article - it got pretty technical for me so admittedly I didn't read the entire thing.

I mean... We didn't lose the OSU game because we got a bad whistle to be clear. We shot 32 free-throws, they shot 41. JD who attacked the rim most frequently for us shot 15 by himself. So without reading the entire article I can tell you they were "rewarding" contact both ways for players who attacked the rim.

The OSU game is probably a bad example for this because the disparity in athletic ability was pretty apparent - but most of the time good players can recognize how officials are calling a game and adjust based on that both defensively in how they defend and offensively how they attack. I have to think late in the Bradley game Teel and KD both recognized that they were calling everything a foul so long as you got to the rim - watching that live a lot of them were indeed fouls - but they probably got a couple gifts as well.

It's never fun when officials anticipate contact that never materializes, are inconsistent in how they call the game from one end of the floor to the other or one half to the next and when an official bases a call on the outcome of the play i.e. I am not going to blow this whistle if he makes the shot but if he misses I will late whistle foul. Like that shit is infuriating. At the end of the day - overall I feel like we've been pretty fortunate with how officials have called our games this year. Maybe Graves in his "I shall not bitch at the refs" attitude works?!

The worst call and not because of recency bias - was Saturday when they refused after looking at the monitor to overturn the ball out on Evansville. Clear as day it was out on Evansville in a crucial moment of the game. Very easily could have changed the outcome. That was the worst call of the season far and away.

Absolutely! I saw the replay once and said, "Oh yeah, our ball." It wasn't even a question to me. When they didn't overturn it I was like......that's some shady looking stuff. It felt like justice when Teel made that defensive play to knock the ball off of E'ville so we could regain possession. Just an otherworldly bad call.

 

[Huff77]

I read part of the article - it got pretty technical for me so admittedly I didn't read the entire thing.

I mean... We didn't lose the OSU game because we got a bad whistle to be clear. We shot 32 free-throws, they shot 41. JD who attacked the rim most frequently for us shot 15 by himself. So without reading the entire article I can tell you they were "rewarding" contact both ways for players who attacked the rim.

The OSU game is probably a bad example for this because the disparity in athletic ability was pretty apparent - but most of the time good players can recognize how officials are calling a game and adjust based on that both defensively in how they defend and offensively how they attack. I have to think late in the Bradley game Teel and KD both recognized that they were calling everything a foul so long as you got to the rim - watching that live a lot of them were indeed fouls - but they probably got a couple gifts as well.

It's never fun when officials anticipate contact that never materializes, are inconsistent in how they call the game from one end of the floor to the other or one half to the next and when an official bases a call on the outcome of the play i.e. I am not going to blow this whistle if he makes the shot but if he misses I will late whistle foul. Like that shit is infuriating. At the end of the day - overall I feel like we've been pretty fortunate with how officials have called our games this year. Maybe Graves in his "I shall not bitch at the refs" attitude works?!

The worst call and not because of recency bias - was Saturday when they refused after looking at the monitor to overturn the ball out on Evansville. Clear as day it was out on Evansville in a crucial moment of the game. Very easily could have changed the outcome. That was the worst call of the season far and away.

At the basketball faculty lunch Graves had a lot to say about the refs. Said they're always talking to each other and you have to figure out what refs were friends. He says it takes awhile to know who you can talk to and who won't listen.

 

[BrokerZ]

I read part of the article - it got pretty technical for me so admittedly I didn't read the entire thing.

I mean... We didn't lose the OSU game because we got a bad whistle to be clear. We shot 32 free-throws, they shot 41. JD who attacked the rim most frequently for us shot 15 by himself. So without reading the entire article I can tell you they were "rewarding" contact both ways for players who attacked the rim.

The OSU game is probably a bad example for this because the disparity in athletic ability was pretty apparent - but most of the time good players can recognize how officials are calling a game and adjust based on that both defensively in how they defend and offensively how they attack. I have to think late in the Bradley game Teel and KD both recognized that they were calling everything a foul so long as you got to the rim - watching that live a lot of them were indeed fouls - but they probably got a couple gifts as well.

It's never fun when officials anticipate contact that never materializes, are inconsistent in how they call the game from one end of the floor to the other or one half to the next and when an official bases a call on the outcome of the play i.e. I am not going to blow this whistle if he makes the shot but if he misses I will late whistle foul. Like that shit is infuriating. At the end of the day - overall I feel like we've been pretty fortunate with how officials have called our games this year. Maybe Graves in his "I shall not bitch at the refs" attitude works?!

The worst call and not because of recency bias - was Saturday when they refused after looking at the monitor to overturn the ball out on Evansville. Clear as day it was out on Evansville in a crucial moment of the game. Very easily could have changed the outcome. That was the worst call of the season far and away.

The total free throws shot does not tell the story of the foul discrepancy in that game. The refs certainly began to even things out towards the end of the game, especially under 6 minutes to go when the game was basically over. Up until the 6-minute mark in the second half, we had shot 24 free throws to their 38. That's absurd.

I know our style of play doesn't lend itself to a lot of free throw opportunities, but Ohio State was definitely getting the benefit of the whistle. I'm not going to say it was the reason we lost, but not only did they get significantly more free throw opportunities they also came at a time in the game where we could not afford anymore foul trouble with our core players.

 

[Huff77]

What was the total time not spent in the bonus for Ohio State?

 

[BrokerZ]

What was the total time not spent in the bonus for Ohio State?

If I'm adding it up correctly, Ohio State only spent 14:07 of total game time NOT in the bonus, so they were in the bonus for about 65% of the game.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

The total free throws shot does not tell the story of the foul discrepancy in that game. The refs certainly began to even things out towards the end of the game, especially under 6 minutes to go when the game was basically over. Up until the 6-minute mark in the second half, we had shot 24 free throws to their 38. That's absurd.

I know our style of play doesn't lend itself to a lot of free throw opportunities, but Ohio State was definitely getting the benefit of the whistle. I'm not going to say it was the reason we lost, but not only did they get significantly more free throw opportunities they also came at a time in the game where we could not afford anymore foul trouble with our core players.

I mean I'd have to go back and watch the game... I've slept a lot sense then and quite frankly moved on. It was never a game that this team was going to win. They played about as well as they could play in the first half and still trailed. Defensively all we could do to stop Ohio State was foul them from my perspective.

But if you feel strongly about it then I'm not here to convince anyone otherwise. Go ahead.

 

[Bluethunder]

If I'm adding it up correctly, Ohio State only spent 14:07 of total game time NOT in the bonus, so they were in the bonus for about 65% of the game.

I know they were in the bonus around the 14 min mark of the first half, because I remember pointing it to my dad that they had the rest of the half to shoot free throws.

 

[sycamorebacker]

Nah, I believed he was capable of this. He showed flashes of greatness as a freshman.

Hold on! Flashes is not the same as 19 ppg and 59%. You did NOT expect that.

 

[RunSyc]

At the basketball faculty lunch Graves had a lot to say about the refs. Said they're always talking to each other and you have to figure out what refs were friends. He says it takes awhile to know who you can talk to and who won't listen.

I like his approach towards refs. Human nature: more likely to have favorable whistle if refs like the head coach. Looked like HCMG was playing a chess game with the refs, this confirms it.

Previous coach was a bit more animated with the refs. Very entertaining for fans, but didn't help the team. I'll take our current coaches approach.

 

[RunSyc]

Hold on! Flashes is not the same as 19 ppg and 59%. You did NOT expect that.

I don't spend time in the off-season wondering each player's stats for the upcoming year lol. I did think the "sky" was the limit for JD at this level. I believed if he had a very productive off-season that he could perform at his current level. Yes I did. Like I said, it's cool to think that he can continue to improve his game in many ways.

 

[sycamorebacker]

I don't spend time in the off-season wondering each player's stats for the upcoming year lol. I did think the "sky" was the limit for JD at this level. I believed if he had a very productive off-season that he could perform at his current level. Yes I did. Like I said, it's cool to think that he can continue to improve his game in many ways.

Yes, I watched clips of his prep games and he looked real good. He was more of a 3 then. I was surprised at how much his time was limited last year. A similar situation to Alderink. I watched some of his full games in HS. I love his handle and court vision. I suspect that he could make a real impact on our team next year.

I really, really hope we can keep our 4 FR here next year.