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NAACP panelists not keen on arming teachers

There are just too many risks, officials say

By Sue Loughlin

Tribune-Star

Panelists at a Terre Haute NAACP meeting opposed or expressed serious reservations about arming teachers as a way to curb gun violence in schools.

The Greater Terre Haute NAACP Branch hosted a virtual community conversation about effective responses to gun violence in schools, which included discussion about House Bill 1177. That bill, which passed out of the House last week, would provide state funding to train teachers who carry guns in classrooms.

The panelists included educators, law enforcement, a legislator, students, a clinical social worker and others.

About 30 people attended the Zoom event, either as panelists or observers.

Among those participating was Terre Haute Police Chief Shawn Keen, who said that in general, he doesn’t agree with the concept of arming school teachers. It would create inherent risks that are unnecessary — especially in a district such as Vigo County, which already has armed school protection officers in every building, he said.

Also, Vigo County School Corp. students and staff have undergone ALICE training, which gives them the option to self-evacuate and teaches them how to counter-attack in the event of an active shooter situation.

“I can tell you a onetime course or even a once-a-year course in firearms does not prepare someone for a critical incident such as an active shooter,” Keen said.

Also, how would responding officers distinguish an armed teacher or staff member from the actual threat when responding to an active shooter, Keen asked.

That dilemma, coupled with misinformation that might be relayed, could impact response times and cause confusion.

“It’s just a number of risks,” Keen said.

VCSC interim superintendent Tom Balitewicz said he had reservations about arming classroom teachers. “I just don’t think at this point in time we’re ready for something like that,” he said.

He made reference to a superintendent in Texas who left his gun in a school bathroom and it was found by a student. “Those are the reasons why we are con-Turn cerned,” he said.

Balitewicz described responding to a Code Red situation at a school a few years ago “and my adrenaline was so high I could barely dial my cell phone. … If you’re not trained and you haven’t experienced those situations, the likelihood of freezing up and having that adrenaline rush is highly likely, in my opinion.”

School districts can already authorize the arming of teachers, but there isn’t a specific training curriculum — or much money — to go with it, the Indiana Capital Chronicle reported.

School corporations can get one matching grant annually from the Indiana Secured School Fund for their security programs. House Bill 1177 would allow an additional grant for specialized firearms instruction.

Participation would be voluntary for both school districts and individual staff members.

“This is just a standardized [training] format that the state will pay for,” author Rep. Jim Lucas, R-Seymour, said on the House floor, the Chronicle reported. He’s said the bill is a response to deadly mass shootings at schools across the country.

Another panelist during Monday’s NAACP meeting was State Rep. Tonya Pfaff, who voted against HB 1177. “I’m completely anti-gun on any school campus except for [armed] school police officers,” she said. At North Vigo, where she is a math teacher, “We have three police officers who protect us and they are trained to do so. I don’t see any reason for a teacher to be armed,” Pfaff said.

She noted that before teachers could receive such training, a school board would have to agree to it. In Indiana, just a handful of districts allow teachers to carry guns in the classroom, she said.

Pfaff worries that arming teachers might start to normalize guns in schools and she wonders about the impact on students. “It’s not normal to look up and your math teacher has a gun on her hip. I cannot get past that,” she said.

South Vigo High School student Samhita Shantharam believes arming teachers would create more of a liability than a safety net for students. “I personally would not feel any more safe with my teacher in possession of a firearm than I do already in school,” she said.

Those participating in the Zoom were urged to contact their legislators and in particular, local State Sen. John Ford, since the legislation will now be considered by the Indiana senate.

Theressa Bynum, who chairs the Terre Haute NAACP branch communication committee, said local branch members need to reach out to other Indiana NAACP branches to make them aware of the legislation and the importance of opposing it.

John Lang, Terre Haute branch first vice president, asked those participating to make a commitment to contact legislators and express opposition.

Sue Loughlin can be reached at 812-231-4235 or at [email protected] Follow Sue on Twitter @ TribStarSue


LUCAS

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I posted my sarcastic note about arming teachers because i attended the NAACP panel last night via zoom. I.believe not one attendee was for having teachers armed.
 
Most of the reasons against are nonsense.

They would rather students be killed than have a teacher with a gun get an adrenaline rush.

The teachers do not have to carry them. They can just be available. There ARE ways to do it.
 
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Just ask the people in Greenwood Park Mail.
 
I believe trained law enforcement should be present but even put Chief of Police said yesterday even once a year traininh may not be enough for some.
 
On the fence on this one...just retired after 35 years of teaching high school technology classes with some pretty bad characters. One year I had two students who had done time in Michigan City...bad dudes...not often you get high schoolers who went to Big Boy prison. I own and have a concealed carry permit (useless now that everyone can carry, basically). I've been thru all of the ALICE training and used to take a couple of periods every year teaching my kids a) how to escape in multiple scenarios/exits and b) how to arm ourselves with hammers, screwdrivers, 2 x 4's, etc. so we could try to fuck up anyone attacking our room if it occurred. Worst thing to do is gather together and be a stationary target. Having a hand gun conceivably gives you a chance...but in our training, a Marine veteran and small arms specialist with the police department told us that even the best trained shooters miss 60% or more of the small arms shots they take. If the intruder is armed with any semi-auto, an AR, etc, they're randomly spraying a LOT more bullets than you, and they're probably not very stationary. And if the teacher isn't actually carrying, in the time it takes to get a weapon from a secure location, a lot of damage is occurring. Everyone thinks real life is like the Walking Dead, where you give a 12 year old a .44 MAG and they're reeling off head shot after head shot....not in real life.

When it was being discussed in our school, I volunteered to be a "defender"...I've volunteered on every bomb scare to help search the building. It never got passed a general discussion phase. There have been over 20 mass shootings since the 90's at military bases...where guns are not as available as one might think, but still more readily available than in most school scenarios.

We had an active gun/potential shooter situation at our school 15+ years ago. When the SWAT team stormed the halls with their assault weapons...well, it keeps your attention.
 

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In my view each school should have at least one armed officer at them, and maybe more than one if it's a larger school. They might even consider putting in scanners like they have at a courthouse or when you go into a sporting event.

I'm not sure arming teachers is the greatest move ever. I'd rather take some of the road pirates off of the roads and actually let them do something useful for the community besides extorting tax payers. By the way I say that as someone that's never received a ticket, but being a truck driver I see it all day everyday.
 
Parkland and Uvalde both had armed security...

How did that work for both schools?


:unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure::unsure:
 
You know, it's not necessary for you to troll every post on here. Sometimes your ignorance is just over-the-top.

So, you BELIEVE the Armed Security at those schools was effective?

Sometimes your ignorance is ridiculous.
 
On the fence on this one...just retired after 35 years of teaching high school technology classes with some pretty bad characters. One year I had two students who had done time in Michigan City...bad dudes...not often you get high schoolers who went to Big Boy prison. I own and have a concealed carry permit (useless now that everyone can carry, basically). I've been thru all of the ALICE training and used to take a couple of periods every year teaching my kids a) how to escape in multiple scenarios/exits and b) how to arm ourselves with hammers, screwdrivers, 2 x 4's, etc. so we could try to fuck up anyone attacking our room if it occurred. Worst thing to do is gather together and be a stationary target. Having a hand gun conceivably gives you a chance...but in our training, a Marine veteran and small arms specialist with the police department told us that even the best trained shooters miss 60% or more of the small arms shots they take. If the intruder is armed with any semi-auto, an AR, etc, they're randomly spraying a LOT more bullets than you, and they're probably not very stationary. And if the teacher isn't actually carrying, in the time it takes to get a weapon from a secure location, a lot of damage is occurring. Everyone thinks real life is like the Walking Dead, where you give a 12 year old a .44 MAG and they're reeling off head shot after head shot....not in real life.

When it was being discussed in our school, I volunteered to be a "defender"...I've volunteered on every bomb scare to help search the building. It never got passed a general discussion phase. There have been over 20 mass shootings since the 90's at military bases...where guns are not as available as one might think, but still more readily available than in most school scenarios.

We had an active gun/potential shooter situation at our school 15+ years ago. When the SWAT team stormed the halls with their assault weapons...well, it keeps your attention.

9 shootings in Indiana schools since 2000, including the Nov 2022 shooting at South Vermillion from the "...accidental discharge from the ISP trooper conducting the vo-tech law enforcement class." the student was grazed by the bullet.

Too many folks think "The Purge" is occurring in their neighborhood nightly.

Agree with your instructors, the BEST shooters train daily, handguns aren't as accurate as long guns
your military base scenario is highly dependent on the installation - though nearly all of them are considerably larger than any school (ES, MS, HS) campus. Service members in barracks/dorms must keep their personal weapons in the base armory.
 

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On the fence on this one...just retired after 35 years of teaching high school technology classes with some pretty bad characters. One year I had two students who had done time in Michigan City...bad dudes...not often you get high schoolers who went to Big Boy prison. I own and have a concealed carry permit (useless now that everyone can carry, basically). I've been thru all of the ALICE training and used to take a couple of periods every year teaching my kids a) how to escape in multiple scenarios/exits and b) how to arm ourselves with hammers, screwdrivers, 2 x 4's, etc. so we could try to fuck up anyone attacking our room if it occurred. Worst thing to do is gather together and be a stationary target. Having a hand gun conceivably gives you a chance...but in our training, a Marine veteran and small arms specialist with the police department told us that even the best trained shooters miss 60% or more of the small arms shots they take. If the intruder is armed with any semi-auto, an AR, etc, they're randomly spraying a LOT more bullets than you, and they're probably not very stationary. And if the teacher isn't actually carrying, in the time it takes to get a weapon from a secure location, a lot of damage is occurring. Everyone thinks real life is like the Walking Dead, where you give a 12 year old a .44 MAG and they're reeling off head shot after head shot....not in real life.

When it was being discussed in our school, I volunteered to be a "defender"...I've volunteered on every bomb scare to help search the building. It never got passed a general discussion phase. There have been over 20 mass shootings since the 90's at military bases...where guns are not as available as one might think, but still more readily available than in most school scenarios.

We had an active gun/potential shooter situation at our school 15+ years ago. When the SWAT team stormed the halls with their assault weapons...well, it keeps your attention.
The demographics of Evansville has changed dramatically since I grew up in Newburgh in the late 60's. Back then, the inner city "core" @ Lincoln & Governor represented the DANGER ZONE. You didn't dare shine a flashlight on a sidewalk "craps game," or else...

Urban income-based/multi-family apartments on the E-ville Eastside dominated by black single-parent households is now the norm, quite a shift from dayz when Washington Square Mall was the 1st of it's kind in Indiana.

A few yrs. ago I moved into an apartment complex near Eastland Mall. I couldn't believe the teen "bicycle gangs" that roamed the 'hoods @ night. I spoke to a Walmart Security Officer about this one night, and he stated that they actually lived on S. Green River Rd., and usually visited the store about 3:00am on their "return" home, stealing everything in sight. Being from single-parent homes w/ the parent employed @ a fast food place never provided much structure.

Ya, times have changed since the Wedgewood's, Fenner's, Winchell's, Nelson's and Wedeking's roamed the hallways of Harrison.

 
I can't believe anybody would rather have a maniac mowing down kids than have someone shooting back and defending them.

Look what happened in Greenwood when ONE person shot back.
 
One of the problems I have with teachers bringing guns to school is that if the gun is not handled properly or stored properly, some nut job kid could get their hands on it, and they're usually the ones that cause the issue in the first place. I'd rather just have more trained law enforcement officers at the schools that are actually trained for this kind of thing, rather than ask teachers to shoot at their own students. Also put in scanners like at the court house so no one can sneak in anything they're not supposed to have.

I'm a millennial, and school shootings are the norm for my generation and Gen-Z. Most of us are not fazed at all by news stories of school shootings. Why they haven't beefed up security at our public schools across the country a long time ago, I'll never know. As of now, anyone can sneak a loaded gun into their backpacks (or even drugs or knives) and bring it to school without anyone knowing.
 
If the teacher desires to have this training and wants to be that line of defense, what's the problem? Most teachers aren't likely to want to do it, so there's not much that will change. But as long as the training is good, and its voluntary, I don't see an issue. We won't tackle the problems that cause these attacks, so why not add a layer of protection in case they happen? People get so bent out of shape about everything...
 

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If the teacher desires to have this training and wants to be that line of defense, what's the problem? Most teachers aren't likely to want to do it, so there's not much that will change. But as long as the training is good, and its voluntary, I don't see an issue. We won't tackle the problems that cause these attacks, so why not add a layer of protection in case they happen? People get so bent out of shape about everything...

What laws will be put in place to shield the teachers from personal liability?

Also, this is a solution in search of a problem. You're in insurance, what would a risk table look like for this. The probability of a kid being involved in a school shooting is sooooooooo fucking minute, it's just not worth expending the money to "solve" this. The money would be much better spent addressing the root cause(s).
 
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Intentional acts are not covered. If a teacher goes rogue, then obviously that's an issue. But if you're gonna write a law to allow this, there would have to be some sort of qualified immunity for teachers acting in defense of students. This isn't a simple thing to put into practice. But the concept is pretty simple.

And yes, the money would be better spent on addressing the root causes. But we don't do that in America anymore. It doesn't win votes to tell parents to do their f-ing jobs, and you don't get campaign donations by telling Big Pharma that their psych drugs are causing many of these issues. And don't get into the cultural issues, because that's a hornet's nest that nobody has the balls to wade into...

So...since we won't address the problems on the front end, we have to do what we can to minimize the issues on the back end. People freaked out about Constitutional Carry in Indiana, and that law saved a bunch of lives right down the road from me last summer. You just never know where it might happen...
 
I can't believe anybody would rather have a maniac mowing down kids than have someone shooting back and defending them.

Look what happened in Greenwood when ONE person shot back.

A variety of points from: https://lasvegassun.com/news/2022/jul/20/if-youre-keeping-score-at-home-good-guys-with-guns/

There have been over 2,000 deaths in mass shootings since 2000.

According to the Advanced Law Enforcement Rapid Response Training Center at Texas State University, civilian “good guys” with guns have subdued “bad guys” with guns in 13 separate incidents since 2000. The most recent, the case from Greenwood, Ind, in which Elisjsha Dickens, an untrained, armed civilian with a pistol, stopped an assailant armed with an assault rifle who opened fire in a public place, killing three people.

That means good guys with guns need to stop 97 more shooters before they will equal the number of times the bad guys have ended their attack by killing themselves. They’ll need to shoot 29 more bad guys to equal the number of times a good guy without a gun has subdued attackers by tackling them, hitting them or otherwise stopping them without using a gun.

So, 3x times as many mass shooters have been stopped by unarmed civilians as have been stopped by armed “good guys with guns.” And bad guys with guns are almost 9x as likely to shoot themselves as they are to be shot by an armed civilian or good Samaritan.

However, consider the following:

In 2021, an armed civilian who shot and killed an attacker in Arvada, Colo., was himself shot and killed by the police who mistook him for the gunman.

In an Alabama mall shooting in 2018, a “good guy with a gun” created confusion among police, who were unsure if he was a good guy or a bad guy, and thus how many assailants were in the building. The result was that the police waited to enter the building until they had a better threat assessment and shot and killed the good Samaritan, increasing the death toll.

And in Las Vegas, an armed good Samaritan was shot in the chest and killed when he tried to confront a “bad guy” with a gun, failing to realize he was actually facing two bad guys with guns.

Mass shootings have become such a commonplace occurrence in the United States that despite the tragic death of three people in a shopping mall, gun rights advocates are chalking this one up as a victory for freedom.

According to the Gun Violence Archive, 40,000 people die from gun violence each year in the United States but forget that even highly trained and armed police officers like those in Uvalde, Tx, failed to stop a gunman in an elementary school. Forget that even longstanding traditions like Fourth of July parades and sacred spaces like churches and elementary schools are no longer immune to mass shootings.

Forget that in the United States, while Republicans stumble over themselves trying to claim the mantle of fighting for the lives of unborn children, our already born children are more likely to die of gun violence than any other cause.

Forget that even in the absence of gun violence, more than 300 children are accidentally shot, and more than 100 children killed each year in the United States due to “good guys” improperly storing their loaded guns in their homes.
 
When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. Just ask the people in Greenwood Park Mail.
Just ask the people in Uvalde where the police were there and were reluctant to engage the shooter. Or ask the people of Parkland where an officer was there and afraid to engage the shooter. People who are pro-gun talk a lot about the need for a good guy with a gun, but don't acknowledge how dangerous it is to engage an active shooter who is likely better armed than they are.
 
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