bent20
The Odum Level
Curious how many are still holding out hope.
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Just curious - Keep football or don't?
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I don't support dropping football, but I wouldn't be completely opposed to moving down to the Pioneer League with Drake, Valpo, and Butler.
What always amazes me about this discussion every year ( and it is becoming almost a yearly topic) is that the people who support dropping it can post all kinds of financial data showing how bad of an investment it is for the school and how it is financially unsustainable, and the people who are in favor never seem to argue those points, but basically just stick to emotional arguments.
While Jason (and others) can show multiple data points proving that it is not feasible long term, all I ever hear from people who are in favor of it are arguments about how we wouldn’t be a real college without football and how homecoming would be lame (as if the Prez hasn’t done that by herself) without football etc.
If you take the emotion out of it and just look at the numbers there really is no way to justify spending what State does in football other than to say “well I like football so let’s keep it”.
But here is what I always come back to…..we all agree the program isn’t very good. We all agree that the stadium, yearly investment needed to keep up with the rest of college football and facilities are a big anchor around the program’s neck. And we all agree that the school doesn’t have close to the amount of money needed to fix those issues. So then why does anyone expect the next ten years to be somehow different from the past ten years?
If money is a big, big reason why we aren’t competitive, and no major new money is going to be coming to the program, then what is the real goal here? Right now it seems that the main goal is just to trot out a team in ISU uniforms so people can attend a game and reminisce about the “glory years” of ISU football and have a place to meet during homecoming? Is that worth $5 million plus a year?
While Jason (and others) can show multiple data points proving that it is not feasible long term, all I ever hear from people who are in favor of it are arguments about how we wouldn’t be a real college without football and how homecoming would be lame (as if the Prez hasn’t done that by herself) without football etc.
If you take the emotion out of it and just look at the numbers there really is no way to justify spending what State does in football other than to say “well I like football so let’s keep it”.
But here is what I always come back to…..we all agree the program isn’t very good. We all agree that the stadium, yearly investment needed to keep up with the rest of college football and facilities are a big anchor around the program’s neck. And we all agree that the school doesn’t have close to the amount of money needed to fix those issues. So then why does anyone expect the next ten years to be somehow different from the past ten years?
If money is a big, big reason why we aren’t competitive, and no major new money is going to be coming to the program, then what is the real goal here? Right now it seems that the main goal is just to trot out a team in ISU uniforms so people can attend a game and reminisce about the “glory years” of ISU football and have a place to meet during homecoming? Is that worth $5 million plus a year?
What amazes me is that I can show the math on how ALL of ISU's athletics are a money drain, and everyone chooses to ignore it. Of course the obvious answer is that we all enjoy the athletics programs which is why we try to justify it, plus the students (someone else) are paying for it through fees.
Budgets:
MBB= $2.4M
FB= $4.36M
All Athletics for D1 Requirement= $16.4M
Drop football and ISU is still paying $12M annually indirectly for men's basketball. Which of course we'd likely have to add some men's sports to stay at the D1 minimum, plus we may add a little to the MBB budget, so at that point ISU is probably still spending $13-14M annually on athletics. ISU would also be losing roughly $750K annually between the FBS money game and ticket sales, so then the "savings" become even less. I'm sure I'm talking to a brick wall here, but dropping football isn't the magic wand y'all think it is.
Budgets:
MBB= $2.4M
FB= $4.36M
All Athletics for D1 Requirement= $16.4M
Drop football and ISU is still paying $12M annually indirectly for men's basketball. Which of course we'd likely have to add some men's sports to stay at the D1 minimum, plus we may add a little to the MBB budget, so at that point ISU is probably still spending $13-14M annually on athletics. ISU would also be losing roughly $750K annually between the FBS money game and ticket sales, so then the "savings" become even less. I'm sure I'm talking to a brick wall here, but dropping football isn't the magic wand y'all think it is.
treeman
The Menser Level
College athletics are money drains in general, it is what it is. The only reason ANY school makes money is their TV deal for football; everyone else is in the red. It's not about turning a profit, it's about getting the most out of every $ the athletic department is going to spend. The university is going to spend somewhere close to $16m whether it has football or not. That money will just be funneled in a more appropriate manner without football.
Football has by far the most coaches: please tally up their salaries
Football has by far the most scholarships: please tally up that cost
Football has by far the most support staff: please tally up that cost
Football has by far the biggest budget for logistics: please tally up that cost (I'm talking hotel, food, busses, etc.)
Football has by far the biggest equipment budget: please tally up that cost
How much does memorial stadium cost the university to operate? maintain the locker rooms?
I mean 1 player has about $1,000 in equipment they wear, that's close to $70,000 right there. Not including coaches head sets, kicking nets, cameras, etc. You are looking at $100,000 just in game day equipment. How far would $4.6M go for girls golf? volleyball? basketball? baseball? Let's just put it this way; would you pay $35,000 for a 1996 Honda Civic with 300,000 miles on it? Or would you pay $35,000 for a 2023 Cadillac. It's not about spending the money, it's about what you are getting
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Hold up. So if we're going to spend close to $16M either way, why would we cut a program that actually brings in $750K annually in favor of funding programs that don't bring in a single dime? Basketball isn't going to magically draw more fans because we dropped football either.
2023 College Basketball Budget - The Resource Nexus
The Latest Sports News, Previews, Opinion & More @ TR Nexus
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What conclusions can you draw from this?
Or,
An Analysis Of College Basketball Return On Investment
AthleticDirectorU presents the most comprehensive analysis of college basketball program spending and return on investment over the last two decades.
athleticdirectoru.com
"One of the key takeaways from return on investment in athletic expenses is “cost per win,” a measure of overall expenses divided by total victories. On average, every $214,406 invested into a program has equated to one victory from 2014 to 2018. This translates to 20 wins — a common benchmark for postseason consideration and contract incentives — requiring about $4,288,120 in overall expenses."
--
College athletics are looked at as a marketing expense -- the whole "front porch" of a University mantra that you can find a TON of empirical and anecdotal articles on with a 30 second Google search. FCS football is NOT a draw. NOBODY FUCKING CARES ABOUT IT and if you disagree with that, you're lying to yourself. March Madness, however, IS THE BIGGEST FUCKING DRAW IN COLLEGE SPORTS. The whole world stops in March to the point where corporations factor in lost productivity for the first two weeks of the month. Every grandma that doesn't give a shit about sports even fill out brackets. Every start to March, Indiana State gets put on TV with Magic vs Bird coverage because we literally were the inflection point to where college basketball was forever changed. Yes, you fucking lean HARD into that. I can't help it that you're too fucking dense to get this basic shit dude. Like, I hope you're trolling because you seriously can't be real here.
Okay and how many times do we actually make March Madness? What are the chances we'll be the one team out of twelve to make it out of a one bid league? If we do somehow make it what's the chances we actually get a good draw and win a game?
Last time we made the tournament was 12 years ago when the average age of an incoming freshman was 7 years old, so I doubt too many of them remember that. Last time we actually won a March Madness game was 22 years ago when none of them were even born yet. When Larry Bird walked through that door a lot of these kid's parents might not have even been born yet.
Last time we made the tournament was 12 years ago when the average age of an incoming freshman was 7 years old, so I doubt too many of them remember that. Last time we actually won a March Madness game was 22 years ago when none of them were even born yet. When Larry Bird walked through that door a lot of these kid's parents might not have even been born yet.
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Jason, it's futile.
THERE IS A FUCKING OPPORTUNITY COST TO THE BASKETBALL PROGRAM BY FUNDING THE FOOTBALL PROGRAM.
LOL you guys live a fantasy world. ISU started spending a lot more on football and we still haven't won a conference championship yet. What makes you think if we start spending more, or even a lot more, on basketball that all the sudden we're going to become dominant? It's not going to happen and Larry Bird isn't walking through that door again, sorry to say. You're all desperate for the glory days. Watch YouTube or something, but those days are long gone. Completely different era. If we'd had won things maybe could've been different, but we didn't and ISU completely sucked for 2 decades afterwards, and never really has been all that great ever since besides a year or two here and there.
NIL aka pay to play is also here to stay along with the transfer portal. Every good player we ever get is going to get called up eventually. Big Ten schools will be getting somewhere around $100M a year starting next year when you add up all of their TV money, bowl money, tournament credits from getting 10+ teams in the dance every year. If Schertz keeps winning he'll be gone in no time even if we paid him a million dollars a year. That's pocket change for these big schools. No way we're ever competing with B1G, SEC, or XII money. We could spend $1 on every program except men's basketball and we're still not competing with that.
We're also not Wichita State, so don't even give me them as an example. We don't have multi-billionaire brothers handing out money hand over fist for our basketball program.
NIL aka pay to play is also here to stay along with the transfer portal. Every good player we ever get is going to get called up eventually. Big Ten schools will be getting somewhere around $100M a year starting next year when you add up all of their TV money, bowl money, tournament credits from getting 10+ teams in the dance every year. If Schertz keeps winning he'll be gone in no time even if we paid him a million dollars a year. That's pocket change for these big schools. No way we're ever competing with B1G, SEC, or XII money. We could spend $1 on every program except men's basketball and we're still not competing with that.
We're also not Wichita State, so don't even give me them as an example. We don't have multi-billionaire brothers handing out money hand over fist for our basketball program.
treeman
The Menser Level
If you give someone $4500 and they give you $750 dollars back. You aren't $750 richer. If we can't get past this, I don't know what to tell you
Low-majors and mid-majors upset high majors in March every.single.year. THAT is the name of the game. Fund and support your basketball program to give them a fair shot at making the Dance. Then if you manage an upset or two you make millions for your school (liquid as well as untold dollars in good will, alum morale/donations, and marketing). The potential income is all the more potent here in Indiana where basketball is king.
Indiana State CAN have both football and basketball funded at competitive levels and CAN work on building a football stadium. They just won't due to ineptness and/or lack of effort/desire in certain other areas of the University. If Lansing can raise $50-100K in a two-day fundraiser (not sure what Shertz has done with the September event--I don't go to ISU basketball stuff much anymore) don't tell me the University can't tack on another $1m annually to appropriately fund the program of Wooden and Bird that more often than not beats IU when they're willing to play. ISU could--they just don't.
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This is the men's basketball expenses of Indiana State and one of our peers that we used to have a rivalry with.
2003 - $1053972 / $1458287
2004 - $1046773 / $1120742
2005 - $1228643 / $1158318
2006 - $1463988 / $1200460
2007 - $1803345 / $1302547
2008 - $1729754 / $1248174
2009 - $2822892 / $1340015
2010 - $3541122 / $1445143
2011 - $3924026 / $1704707
2012 - $4282684 / $1695685
2013 - $4065931 / $1605635
2014 - $4518512 / $1886004
2015 - $4833565 / $1832975
2016 - $5489704 / $1866603
2017 - $5507238 / $2055794
2018 - $5760815 / $2129934
2019 - $5846934 / $2128080
2020 - $5017012 / $1676570
2021 - $8750438 / $2649034
Now that peer wouldn't even piss on us to put the fire out.
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Let's see a show of hands
Get out and VOTE, Vote Early and Often (Mayor Daley 1.0)
sycamore tuff
The Newsom Level
Hey ssom, since you and coach DR are friends, why don't you pick his brain as to what ISU should do? It would be interesting to hear his thoughts.
I remember when we upset Oklahoma in the NCAA in basketball. There was a huge two page picture of Mike Menser consoling an Oklahoma player in the Sporting News.
That is why you find basketball as much as you can. Because if you get to the tournament you get a TON of free publicity. It’s the sole reason that most people outside of Indiana know about Indiana State.
It’s been how many years and people still talk about Ali Farokhmanesh’s shot against Kansas.
And not only did Northern Iowa get a ton of free publicity off that team, they (and here is the key point) earned a bunch of money for the program.
South Dakota State won the national championship last year and who knows? Who cares? Show me the ratings for the fcs national championship vs any round of March Madness and you will see a strong basketball program is more important than a strong fcs football team.
Basketball has a chance to earn you ten times the publicity AND earn money going forward. It’s a win win. Sure we won’t make the tournament every year. But the advantages and possibilities make it far better to try than to keep burning money into a football program that no one cares about.
And before you start saying we have other sports no one cares about, go add up what we pay for swimming, or vball or soccer vs what we spend on football. Not even comparable.
That is why you find basketball as much as you can. Because if you get to the tournament you get a TON of free publicity. It’s the sole reason that most people outside of Indiana know about Indiana State.
It’s been how many years and people still talk about Ali Farokhmanesh’s shot against Kansas.
And not only did Northern Iowa get a ton of free publicity off that team, they (and here is the key point) earned a bunch of money for the program.
South Dakota State won the national championship last year and who knows? Who cares? Show me the ratings for the fcs national championship vs any round of March Madness and you will see a strong basketball program is more important than a strong fcs football team.
Basketball has a chance to earn you ten times the publicity AND earn money going forward. It’s a win win. Sure we won’t make the tournament every year. But the advantages and possibilities make it far better to try than to keep burning money into a football program that no one cares about.
And before you start saying we have other sports no one cares about, go add up what we pay for swimming, or vball or soccer vs what we spend on football. Not even comparable.
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