Sobering story on Terre Haute and near future

[Sycamorefan96]

You realize that raising taxes is the defacto standard lever that local Governments have to bring in any jobs as they usually give the tax abatements. Those always get passed on to the local populace.

How would you get a business to bring thousands of jobs to your area? What would your pitch be? Curious now.

There's a lot of counties and cities out there that hardly collect any tax revenue from businesses that move to their town and a lot of them get really good long term deals. These localities are smart enough to realize that if their local residents make more money the area will benefit in many ways. People can afford nicer homes which in return raises property values, people pay more in local income taxes because their income is higher, people have more money to spend which helps the local economy, etc.

Some businesses like Target won't even entertain coming here and I'm guessing it's because they see how depressing this town is. Heck even a town like Kokomo has a Target. Macy's apparently was too expensive for folks around here. The Mall had to have a flea market come in to try to save the place. It's beyond embarrassing.

I also agree that the place needs cleaned up. It's pretty pathetic to be quite honest. I had the privilege to help out the TH building inspectors for a month when I was when in high school and we condemned so many houses it wasn't even funny. The problem was that it was city policy that we couldn't take any action against anyone and their dumpy properties until a neighbor or someone made a complaint. I'll spare details, but it was pretty sad that some people are perfectly fine with living in complete dumps and didn't see any problems with anything. But then again half of the population around here doesn't seem take any pride in themselves either. They show up to the gas station in their pajamas at 2 O'clock in the afternoon hoping to win the mega millions while buying their cigs and swiping their EBT for candy bars and potato chips.

Maybe I just expect too much, but like I said, from a trucking perspective there are a lot of cities out there similar in size to Terre Haute that have a lot more going for them than we do. The only loads I've ever had that have gone to Terre Haute went to the Menards DC. I did haul a load of bricks to Texas from the brick plant down by the county dump so there's something. I'm not sure what made Casey's decide to come here (DC in Industrial Park), but I'm certainly glad they did and those are the kinds of jobs we need to be trying to get. Our industrial park isn't bad but there are lots of them out there that makes ours look like nothing.

 

[Sycamorefan96]

But seriously, if you look online one of the top complaints (besides the awful smell which has pretty much gone away), is that the lack of good, or at the very least decent paying jobs around here. TH has a low cost of living, so it's not like you have to make a fortune to do well here. Like $15-$20 p/hr is pretty decent around here and anything over $25 you're really doing good. Unfortunately we seem to struggle even bringing the decent paying jobs here.

 

[sycamore tuff]

Which would require taxing the citizens to pay for the labor, equipment and consumables for the undertaking. That is without having any guaranteed ROI.

No, you fine the property owners if they don’t clean up their crap!

 

[Jason Svoboda]

There's a lot of counties and cities out there that hardly collect any tax revenue from businesses that move to their town and a lot of them get really good long term deals. These localities are smart enough to realize that if their local residents make more money the area will benefit in many ways. People can afford nicer homes which in return raises property values, people pay more in local income taxes because their income is higher, people have more money to spend which helps the local economy, etc.

Examples with verifiable information links please. Specific. Not the anecdotal, fifth hand stuff you keep posting.

 

[Jason Svoboda]

No, you fine the property owners if they don’t clean up their crap!

Fine the people that only have low wage jobs per SF96? Seems counter intuitive.

That said, I see where you were going and I don't think that would do anything toward attracting businesses. They want access to cheap land, cheap resources, tax abatements, and an educated workforce for salaried positions as well as reliable, hardworking, and disposable bodies for hourly labor.

Capitalism has driven us to this place where businesses that scale do not give a shit about the communities they reside in. They come in, deplete the resources, and then move on when they can get a better deal for their bottom lines elsewhere. This is why the large majority of businesses that most communities get are consumption-based or service businesses. The same retail and food service jobs SF96 thumbed his nose up at.

I've been gone from the Haute for awhile, but what happened to the technology park that they built out South of Terre Haute? I worked out there for CSN and the city had planned to develop that into a manufacturing zone for skilled/semi-skilled labor. Did that pan out? Why or why not?

 

[sycamore tuff]

I don’t know what kind of jobs they may have. if they don’t want to pay the fines then they can clean up. Seems pretty simple.

 

[4Q_iu]

Will the money spent to renovate Hulman Center ever show a reasonable ROI? That seems a worse investment than the Convention Center which just might bring multile events to town throughout the year.

Just like in athletics, it is a facilities war. Either you spend money in very questionable ways or you fall behind. Spending $30MM on a new football stadium will never show a return but many people favor it. I expect we could sign a 20-year deal to play all of our home games at Lucas Oil Stadium for far, far less than the cost of a new stadium plus it would bring our games to a major market and into easy travel distance for a vast number of alums. And I expect most of the 2,000 or so locals who attend now would enjoy 5-6 weekends in Indy.

when ISU used buses to move ISU students from campus to the "on-campus" stadium, they were rarely full

And now you want to play games ~80 miles away? How are the students going to get to Lucas Oil?

 

[4Q_iu]

There's a lot of counties and cities out there that hardly collect any tax revenue from businesses that move to their town and a lot of them get really good long term deals. These localities are smart enough to realize that if their local residents make more money the area will benefit in many ways. People can afford nicer homes which in return raises property values, people pay more in local income taxes because their income is higher, people have more money to spend which helps the local economy, etc.

Soooo.... you think this is a great idea UNLESS it's implemented in Terre Haute/Vigo County and Greg Gibson might make a dollar of that deal?

Some businesses like Target won't even entertain coming here and I'm guessing it's because they see how depressing this town is. Heck even a town like Kokomo has a Target. Macy's apparently was too expensive for folks around here. The Mall had to have a flea market come in to try to save the place. It's beyond embarrassing.

Target is the epitome of a 'successful' city? I find virtually zero difference between Target and Wal-Mart; why not shop at Baesler's and keep your $$ as local as possible?

I also agree that the place needs cleaned up. It's pretty pathetic to be quite honest. I had the privilege to help out the TH building inspectors for a month when I was when in high school and we condemned so many houses it wasn't even funny. The problem was that it was city policy that we couldn't take any action against anyone and their dumpy properties until a neighbor or someone made a complaint. I'll spare details, but it was pretty sad that some people are perfectly fine with living in complete dumps and didn't see any problems with anything. But then again half of the population around here doesn't seem take any pride in themselves either. They show up to the gas station in their pajamas at 2 O'clock in the afternoon hoping to win the mega millions while buying their cigs and swiping their EBT for candy bars and potato chips.

Perhaps Terre Haute needs to take a page from Detroit's current playbook and knock down abandoned homes, turn it into greenspace

Maybe I just expect too much, but like I said, from a trucking perspective there are a lot of cities out there similar in size to Terre Haute that have a lot more going for them than we do.

Please name them.

The only loads I've ever had that have gone to Terre Haute went to the Menards DC. I did haul a load of bricks to Texas from the brick plant down by the county dump so there's something. I'm not sure what made Casey's decide to come here (DC in Industrial Park), but I'm certainly glad they did and those are the kinds of jobs we need to be trying to get. Our industrial park isn't bad but there are lots of them out there that makes ours look like nothing.

Not sure how DC jobs are vastly "better" than the "restaurant & hotel" jobs you decry...

 

[sycamore tuff]

When the coronavirus shutdowns were beginning, some jobs were considered essential and others were not. A man on the radio condemned the whole idea of nonessential jobs. I believe he was right. All jobs are essential in having a strong economy.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

I’m not even going to waste time on some of the ridiculousness found in this thread that 4Q and others already addressed for me. Thank you.

South industrial park is pretty solid - north industrial park is pretty solid. South has previously mentioned in this thread Saturn Pet Care, Thyssen Krupp, AIS Gauging, CSN Steel still in operation but operating under a different name. It’s a pretty thriving industrial park if you ask me. Obviously Terre Haute losing Pfizer several years ago and Sony DADC significantly downsizing have hurt the local economy.

I think TH Airport losing out on the big F35 project was a pretty big recent loss - I think one of our major issues in not winning that bid is our lack of housing options. @meistro could speak to our hosing situation better than I can. But hell a business partner of mine has recently invested in over 15 properties in Terre Haute that he’s dumped money into cleaning up each one and converting them to nice rental options. Others are doing this to try and address the original dilapidated housing issues that were discussed in this thread. You’ve got a local couple up in 12 Points on the news every other week trying to make a difference in that part of town where much of the poverty and home vacancy issues are - they’ve been doing an excellent job to try and revitalize that area.

But unless you’re actually invested in this community, having conversations (not on sycamore fucking pride), actually doing some of this improvement work yourself - you’re probably not getting the entire picture! So much of the good is being left out… It’s not a personal jab at all / but it’s being left out because some people in this thread have no idea what they are talking about. You’re so dug in with this narrative that you can’t see the forest for the trees (I think that’s how that goes…).

You know every time WTHI or WTWO posts a story on social media about a new restaurant coming to town or a new store - you have the same group of people coming out of the woodwork bitching and complaining about not having any good paying jobs… It would seem to me if those people collectively worked together, pooled resources they could make a hell of a lot of money in this town! If the O N L Y thing we have is restaurants and shops - then well the biggest limiting factor in business (competition) doesn’t really exists here and the sky is the limit. Or keep winning Facebook with that uneducated bias.

Have a good rest of the week ya all! I’m not sure I have anything else that I can add to this thread.

 

[DyedBlue]

when ISU used buses to move ISU students from campus to the "on-campus" stadium, they were rarely full

And now you want to play games ~80 miles away? How are the students going to get to Lucas Oil?

Thousands of them go home every weekend. Maybe instead they would go to a game in Indy and party. And, for me, their convenience is less of an issue than wise use of institutional and state funding.

 

[meistro]

I would just say that I agree with the above comments by SSOM. Sure there are problems in TH, but there are so many improvements over the last few years, and yes Greg Gibson is a part of that. As are Thompson/Thrift as well as the couple working to improve the 12 points area, and many more.

Terre Haute is much like other small rust belt cities. Back in the day you had businesses like Stran Steel and General Housewares, etc. You had neighborhood taverns and grocery stores and people walked to work. Then, families got a second car and people started moving to the suburbs. This left these working class neighborhoods to become rentals and low income housing, thus the deterioration. Again, this is common in many cities. There have been many blighted homes torn down. But, many rundown homes remain because people don't have the money or ambition to keep them up. And unfortunately, there are slum lords that don't take care of things. It has gotten better, but it takes time.

To be honest, I feel like TH has weathered the last 35 years as well as could be expected. We've lost Stran Steel, Pfizer, Columbia House, and most of the Sony jobs. Through hard work and yes tax abatements, we have replaced them with Heartland Steel, Advics, Thysenkrupp and more. We have lots of work to do, but we are heading in the right direction.

I have lived here all my life and I love the area. I think we have a lot to offer: low cost of living, great parks and recreation, higher education, proximity to interstates and larger cities. But, the most important asset are the people. People who give their time and money to Ryves Hall, Boys Club, Shoe Bus and much more. I can tell you firsthand the generosity of this community. 15 months ago I almost died after getting hit by a truck. I wasn't able to work for 3 months. I had friends, family and people I had never met help us. They brought meals, mowed grass, and organized fundraisers to help us during this time. As a small business person I was terrified of what would happen. But these people helped me get through this terrible situation. Your life and community is what you make it. If you want it to be better, get out and make it happen and try a little positivity sometimes.

 

[4Q_iu]

Thousands of them go home every weekend. Maybe instead they would go to a game in Indy and party. And, for me, their convenience is less of an issue than wise use of institutional and state funding.

Pipe dreaming if the idea of games at lucas oil will "keep" kids in terre haute for the game

no state funding can be, will be used for rehabbing, replacing Memorial Stadium

its on ISU to figure out how to finance any (theoretical) replacement