Talks about rebuilding project, compares teams...
http://vindy.com/news/2009/sep/23/indiana-st-remains-rebuilding-mode/?print
http://vindy.com/news/2009/sep/23/indiana-st-remains-rebuilding-mode/?print
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Sycamore football story from YSU paper
- Thread starter Jason Svoboda
- Start date
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All these stories about rebuilding make me want to yack! This conversation about this program is wearing me out, some say if you don't have anything good to say don't say it at all... So I will exit with those remarks...
It is what it is Morgan. Not sure how anyone could try to paint any different picture so I'm not sure your stance here?
You don't rebuild football programs overnight. This isn't basketball or baseball (to a lesser extent) where you can get one or two good players and all the sudden start winning ballgames. It takes a good deal of talent to win in college football -- talent is paramount. Miles needs another two years of recruiting classes where he starts having talent and depth at most spots. To think otherwise shows the lack of understanding when it comes to college football.
I think you can take a look of the first 3 weeks of college football pick'em on yahoo and tell that I have pretty good understanding of college football. Not that it's a solid indicator, because anyone can pick against the spread every week and get lucky. If it happens once it's luck, if it happens twice it's a trend, if it happens 3 times your the freakin man!I happen to a pretty big fan of college football and a big fan of the Sycamores.
I understand that we have a re-building process going on here, I think we all understand that is what we are trying to do. I am not on here to throw a fit about cutting the program. I am just so sick of this lack luster efforts and performances. But at the end of the day it's ok, because this program is rebuilding for gosh sakes.
It's no different than the hoops program last year, everyone around here wanted to stay positive because that's what good fans do. Well hell with what good fans do, we won freakin 11 games last year and that's unacceptable.
And this football program has lost 30 darn games in a row and it's unacceptable to simply suggest that they are in the process of rebuilding the program - that shows a lack of understanding...
'Show me a good and gracious loser, and I'll show you a failure.' ....Knute Rockne / Notre Dame
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Refresh my memory...
I did some cursory searches but can't / didn't find it; from the beginning of Raetz' tenure through 1984, it seemed like he was building the program, why did it plateau? Seemed like the formula was in place; he never reached that pinnacle again?
Just curious
I did some cursory searches but can't / didn't find it; from the beginning of Raetz' tenure through 1984, it seemed like he was building the program, why did it plateau? Seemed like the formula was in place; he never reached that pinnacle again?
Just curious
Picking scores has nothing to do with understanding how a college football program works. You can't consider the whole streak because the whole streak isn't connected to the current coaching staff. Trying to do so is very shortsighted. Also, don't compare football to basketball -- it's not in the same realm or magnitude although Coack McKenna is trying to dig out of the lack of recruiting done by Royce Waltman in his final years.
We'd all like to see the Sycamores more competitive -- but the fact of the matter is, we are being more competitive. Just because it hasn't translated into wins yet doesn't mean it won't down the line. Read the game threads, check out the box scores and read what opposing fans and coaches are saying. We've got a really solid defense and poor offense right now -- highlighted by inexperience and youth. Let's shoot back to 2007 for a second:
In year three of the Lou West Debacle, the Sycamores went 0-fer with scores of 55-7, 32-17, 13-10, 54-20, 72-10, 19-7, 69-17, 56-7, 63-7, 40-7, 68-14. Opponents averaged 49.2 points and we gave up 40 points or more in 8 contests -- and four times opponents scored 60 or more points. We averaged 11.2 ppg and we had a differential of 38 ppg.
In the first year of Miles tenure as head coach, we only gave up 40 or more points 6 times and opponents averaged 42.3 ppg to our 8.4 ppg, a 34 ppg difference. Only once did an opponent drop 60 on us, when Southern Illinois scored 60 points. Considering this was his first year with a majority of the roster recruited by Lou West, I consider this a small victory. This was also the beginning of Miles cleaning house and changing the culture within the program.
Flash forward to this year. Through four games, opponents are only averaging 32 points per game. Our abysmal offense is only averaging 7.5 ppg which gives us a scoring differential of 24.5 ppg. Nobody has put up 60 or even 70 on us like they have in the past. So in less than two years we've managed to knock off nearly two touchdowns in scoring differential despite playing primarily underclassmen at every position and not having much offensive production at all. I don't know about you, but I call this an improvement.
Again, it all comes down to recruiting. As the numbers show, there has been significant improvement at some spots. We're starting to get some talent at positions but we're still far off at others. Miles and staff will hopefully continue to close the gap further by landing a solid recruiting class that includes some transfers that can come in and provide experience and leadership.
But why would a prospect want to come to Indiana State to play for our apathetic fan base? We've got folks on this very forum that don't even want to be seen in ISU apparel. I mean, seriously? Miles has to do a major league sales job every time he steps foot in a coache's office or recruit's home just to get Indiana State into the conversation.
The bottom line is the fan base can continue to be ignorant and spout off the same garbage "Oh well, ISU has lost 30 games in a row... yada, yada" or they can pop the hood and actually understand why it's happened. If they want a winning football program, they're just as responsible and as big a part as members of the athletics offices, the coaches and the team are -- it's a total team effort.
- The Athletics Department needs to provide whatever needed to the program to be successful like facilities upgrades, increased recruiting budgets, etc.
- The Coaching Staff needs to develop and coach up players and continue to get better. They need to bust balls on the recruiting trail and attract top high school, JUCO and FBS talent.
- The Players need to dedicate themselves to the program and continue to bust ass in the classroom, weightroom and on the field. They need to eat right and make sure they reach whatever goals they have set for them by the training staff.
And the Fans need to get out to Memorial and attend the games. They need to buy programs, nachos and other concessions. They need to buy Sycamore apparal and wear it proudly. They need to be up and screaming when the Sycamores are trying to make a stop on 3rd and 2 and they need to keep Memorial filled and loud to help impress recruits that may be taking unofficial or official visits to determine whether or not they want to play at State.
It's a group effort. Period..
We'd all like to see the Sycamores more competitive -- but the fact of the matter is, we are being more competitive. Just because it hasn't translated into wins yet doesn't mean it won't down the line. Read the game threads, check out the box scores and read what opposing fans and coaches are saying. We've got a really solid defense and poor offense right now -- highlighted by inexperience and youth. Let's shoot back to 2007 for a second:
In year three of the Lou West Debacle, the Sycamores went 0-fer with scores of 55-7, 32-17, 13-10, 54-20, 72-10, 19-7, 69-17, 56-7, 63-7, 40-7, 68-14. Opponents averaged 49.2 points and we gave up 40 points or more in 8 contests -- and four times opponents scored 60 or more points. We averaged 11.2 ppg and we had a differential of 38 ppg.
In the first year of Miles tenure as head coach, we only gave up 40 or more points 6 times and opponents averaged 42.3 ppg to our 8.4 ppg, a 34 ppg difference. Only once did an opponent drop 60 on us, when Southern Illinois scored 60 points. Considering this was his first year with a majority of the roster recruited by Lou West, I consider this a small victory. This was also the beginning of Miles cleaning house and changing the culture within the program.
Flash forward to this year. Through four games, opponents are only averaging 32 points per game. Our abysmal offense is only averaging 7.5 ppg which gives us a scoring differential of 24.5 ppg. Nobody has put up 60 or even 70 on us like they have in the past. So in less than two years we've managed to knock off nearly two touchdowns in scoring differential despite playing primarily underclassmen at every position and not having much offensive production at all. I don't know about you, but I call this an improvement.
Again, it all comes down to recruiting. As the numbers show, there has been significant improvement at some spots. We're starting to get some talent at positions but we're still far off at others. Miles and staff will hopefully continue to close the gap further by landing a solid recruiting class that includes some transfers that can come in and provide experience and leadership.
But why would a prospect want to come to Indiana State to play for our apathetic fan base? We've got folks on this very forum that don't even want to be seen in ISU apparel. I mean, seriously? Miles has to do a major league sales job every time he steps foot in a coache's office or recruit's home just to get Indiana State into the conversation.
The bottom line is the fan base can continue to be ignorant and spout off the same garbage "Oh well, ISU has lost 30 games in a row... yada, yada" or they can pop the hood and actually understand why it's happened. If they want a winning football program, they're just as responsible and as big a part as members of the athletics offices, the coaches and the team are -- it's a total team effort.
- The Athletics Department needs to provide whatever needed to the program to be successful like facilities upgrades, increased recruiting budgets, etc.
- The Coaching Staff needs to develop and coach up players and continue to get better. They need to bust balls on the recruiting trail and attract top high school, JUCO and FBS talent.
- The Players need to dedicate themselves to the program and continue to bust ass in the classroom, weightroom and on the field. They need to eat right and make sure they reach whatever goals they have set for them by the training staff.
And the Fans need to get out to Memorial and attend the games. They need to buy programs, nachos and other concessions. They need to buy Sycamore apparal and wear it proudly. They need to be up and screaming when the Sycamores are trying to make a stop on 3rd and 2 and they need to keep Memorial filled and loud to help impress recruits that may be taking unofficial or official visits to determine whether or not they want to play at State.
It's a group effort. Period..
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Give that man a 'Haa-Rumph!'
Boda,
That is a spot-on post (as normal for Boda!)
The program wasn't broken in one season; it won't be fixed in one
Boda,
That is a spot-on post (as normal for Boda!)
The program wasn't broken in one season; it won't be fixed in one
I think that I said not that it is an indicator of nothing... I thought I covered myself with that - I was really just kind of trying to add humor to the conversation... Epic Fail.
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Nah, I probably just missed it. I'm just getting fed up with the piling on from people that probably haven't attended but a couple football games ever -- not you, just everyone in general.
Hahah ur a bleeping joke dude... I sent my dad and a few others this video of how I act sometimes when my teams loose. And anyone who really knows me (not you) would testify to this. And the Sycamores happen to be my team - I competed for them and now I cheer for them... Whatever the sport may be!
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WBmrrRKg-c[/ame]
So I really don't appreciate you coming on here and calling me out and telling me I don't support the program and all I do is bash it. You have no freaking idea what I would do for Indiana State Athletics - NONE! So don't come on here acting a pos like that.... I have not disrespected the program in any way shape or form.
I am done with you....
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new sycamore fan
The All-MVC Level
Fantastic video! We can all feel the pain 4 weeks in, but that brought a smile to my face. Thanks Morgan.
country123a
The Starter Level
There been times I've doubted him but I think Morgan truly wants the program to succeed (probably even more than he's willing to admit). 
A little passion on here is good because football is a passionate sport. I'm looking forward to the day we're complaining about not making the ncaa play offs. Then we'll know we've arrived!
A little passion on here is good because football is a passionate sport. I'm looking forward to the day we're complaining about not making the ncaa play offs. Then we'll know we've arrived!
SydCamore
The Captain Level
DyedBlue
The All-MVC Level
My thoughts on the early 80's. and some closing thoughts on UR's path to success.
Several positive factors came together at the same time.
#1. Dick Jamison was the Head Coach before Dennis Raetz. He went on to coach in the NFL and was highly regarded. I credit him with much of the building of the program.
#2. The players who were playing in the 83-84 seasons became familiar with and came to ISU during the peak of the basketball notoriety. The spill over effect into football recruiting had to occur to some degree. So, lots of national publicity and a dynamic head coach stocked the shelves
#3. ISU was transitioning from full D1 down to D1AA which meant that its upper classmen were recruited when ISU had more scholarships and as a result it had a deeper talent pool than schools that had been at Div 1AA for several years.
These three factors combined to set the table quite well when Jamison left and Raetz began his career. The price for all of those upperclassmen was paid the next few years when ISU had VERY FEW scholarships to offer during those winning seasons.
All of a sudden, a few years later, the Jr & Sr classes were slim in numbers and 'probably' less talented. I believe that at one time ISU had 7 players in the NFL who played in the late 70's/early 80's. That level of talent should have dominated at D1AA. The #1 ranking in 1984 should have been a foundation for greater success but the way ISU lost in the playoffs when Raetz went for 2 points down 42-41 in a triple OT game (no 2 point rule requirement back then so a kick was an option) and failed then the team's reaction was just stunned disbelief. I think in large part he 'lost' his team with that move and never recovered.
So the record dropped, the basketball notoriety was gone and the dropping of wrestling & gymnastics sent a message that ISU was no longer going to compete with the major powers as it had done in the past.
Soon, the crowds were back to 2-3,000 a game (but never really got much over 7,000 in the Raetz era anyway) and the energy just slowly drained from the program. His teams were generally strong defensively but found ways to lose 17-14, 21-17, 13-10, etc. Just not much offensive firepower.
ISU was incredibly patient with Raetz. 18 years as a head coach I believe and no real success after 1984. My personal feeling is that coming out of Nebraska he certainly knew football but in that era Nebraska just overwhelmed people with superior talent and FCS FB is about winning with equal talent. The best coaches will out prepare and out coach the other guys because the 'top' teams in FCS are so darn even in talent. When ISU had that top talent, it did not capitalize and has paid the price ever since.
I was a long time season ticket holder at ISU until I moved to Richmond, Va where I am now a Spider season ticket holder. Richmond is now ranked #1 in FCS but in 2004 it was 3-8 under new Coach Dave Clawson. The next season started 1-3 but the Spiders won 8 straight plus a playoff game. Dropped to 6-5 the next season with a freshman QB but have been a national power ever since. Clawson left before last season and new coach Mike London inherited a situation similar to what Raetz inherited. He went out and won a National Championship!! He seems to be recruiting well and building on that new tradition. (UR had neverhad 3 winning seasons in a row in the last 50 years until the current streak!!).
UR charges $22 a ticket for an FCS game (does have some 2 for 1 offers) and only averages about 7,000 fans/game with 1500 being free students. Average Old 1600 possible SAT on the team is probably 1300 or so based on comments made by Clawson to me about his recruiting in the past. (He told me that a possible recruit with an 1186 SAT would have the second or third lowest SAT that he had recruited in his four years there.).
Several positive factors came together at the same time.
#1. Dick Jamison was the Head Coach before Dennis Raetz. He went on to coach in the NFL and was highly regarded. I credit him with much of the building of the program.
#2. The players who were playing in the 83-84 seasons became familiar with and came to ISU during the peak of the basketball notoriety. The spill over effect into football recruiting had to occur to some degree. So, lots of national publicity and a dynamic head coach stocked the shelves
#3. ISU was transitioning from full D1 down to D1AA which meant that its upper classmen were recruited when ISU had more scholarships and as a result it had a deeper talent pool than schools that had been at Div 1AA for several years.
These three factors combined to set the table quite well when Jamison left and Raetz began his career. The price for all of those upperclassmen was paid the next few years when ISU had VERY FEW scholarships to offer during those winning seasons.
All of a sudden, a few years later, the Jr & Sr classes were slim in numbers and 'probably' less talented. I believe that at one time ISU had 7 players in the NFL who played in the late 70's/early 80's. That level of talent should have dominated at D1AA. The #1 ranking in 1984 should have been a foundation for greater success but the way ISU lost in the playoffs when Raetz went for 2 points down 42-41 in a triple OT game (no 2 point rule requirement back then so a kick was an option) and failed then the team's reaction was just stunned disbelief. I think in large part he 'lost' his team with that move and never recovered.
So the record dropped, the basketball notoriety was gone and the dropping of wrestling & gymnastics sent a message that ISU was no longer going to compete with the major powers as it had done in the past.
Soon, the crowds were back to 2-3,000 a game (but never really got much over 7,000 in the Raetz era anyway) and the energy just slowly drained from the program. His teams were generally strong defensively but found ways to lose 17-14, 21-17, 13-10, etc. Just not much offensive firepower.
ISU was incredibly patient with Raetz. 18 years as a head coach I believe and no real success after 1984. My personal feeling is that coming out of Nebraska he certainly knew football but in that era Nebraska just overwhelmed people with superior talent and FCS FB is about winning with equal talent. The best coaches will out prepare and out coach the other guys because the 'top' teams in FCS are so darn even in talent. When ISU had that top talent, it did not capitalize and has paid the price ever since.
I was a long time season ticket holder at ISU until I moved to Richmond, Va where I am now a Spider season ticket holder. Richmond is now ranked #1 in FCS but in 2004 it was 3-8 under new Coach Dave Clawson. The next season started 1-3 but the Spiders won 8 straight plus a playoff game. Dropped to 6-5 the next season with a freshman QB but have been a national power ever since. Clawson left before last season and new coach Mike London inherited a situation similar to what Raetz inherited. He went out and won a National Championship!! He seems to be recruiting well and building on that new tradition. (UR had neverhad 3 winning seasons in a row in the last 50 years until the current streak!!).
UR charges $22 a ticket for an FCS game (does have some 2 for 1 offers) and only averages about 7,000 fans/game with 1500 being free students. Average Old 1600 possible SAT on the team is probably 1300 or so based on comments made by Clawson to me about his recruiting in the past. (He told me that a possible recruit with an 1186 SAT would have the second or third lowest SAT that he had recruited in his four years there.).
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KAPat1865
The Captain Level
That was a GREAT video...