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Thoughts?
- Thread starter LoyalAlum
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Kids being held accountable for their action. Not only were they just removed from the band or student section, but they lost their scholarship. Refreshing.
I liked it too...if you can't realize that is wrong, not much I or anyone else can do for you. Kids make mistakes but there is a line you never under any circumstance you cross...thats one
I think it is utterly ridiculous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on, this PC bullshit has to stop. WORDS, they yelled words which have no bearing, have no importance, have no value at all, they are words. They did nothing to hurt anyone, they did nothing that endangered anyone, they just yelled something stupid out....its not like they yelled "FIRE" in a a crowded theatre and people got hurt trying to run out in a panic.
I am so sick of the idea that words can hurt someone....was it insensitive, yes. SO WHAT!!! Should the students be reprimanded, sure. Should they lose their scholarships because they said something....NO! That is crazy to me! I am just so tired of hearing about this type of crap! The only reason that someones words can hurt anyone is if the individual lets those words hurt. This continued suggestion in our society that kids and adults alike need to be offended by something that someone says is so over the top! I completely "reteach" my kids everyday after school that words do not hurt at all and that just because someone says something or texts something or writes something or in this case yells it out that doesn't mean it is true, doesn't mean it has to hurt them.
Man I am tired of the "FEELING" police and their indoctrination of our society to force the belief that words can actually hurt someone. This instance and hundreds of others exist, where someone said something "insensitive" and for that they are forced to suffer for years (in this case possibly having to leave school...are you kidding me?
I teach my children exactly what should be taught, "stick and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me!" And by teaching them that concept, if and when a bully or insensitive person says something off color to them, instead of worrying about it, instead of contemplating it, instead of taking it to heart and internalizing it to a point where it begins to manifest as depression or something worse, my kids will be able to ignore it because they will know, that the words of an ignorant asshole are worth nothing and they will be able to inform their friends that the ignorant words of an asshole are worth nothing. Taking away the perceived power in a bullying situation. And they are taking karate and will begin MMA classes when they are old enough so that if they find themselves in a situation where a bully wants to get physical, they can handle that too!
Come on, this PC bullshit has to stop. WORDS, they yelled words which have no bearing, have no importance, have no value at all, they are words. They did nothing to hurt anyone, they did nothing that endangered anyone, they just yelled something stupid out....its not like they yelled "FIRE" in a a crowded theatre and people got hurt trying to run out in a panic.
I am so sick of the idea that words can hurt someone....was it insensitive, yes. SO WHAT!!! Should the students be reprimanded, sure. Should they lose their scholarships because they said something....NO! That is crazy to me! I am just so tired of hearing about this type of crap! The only reason that someones words can hurt anyone is if the individual lets those words hurt. This continued suggestion in our society that kids and adults alike need to be offended by something that someone says is so over the top! I completely "reteach" my kids everyday after school that words do not hurt at all and that just because someone says something or texts something or writes something or in this case yells it out that doesn't mean it is true, doesn't mean it has to hurt them.
Man I am tired of the "FEELING" police and their indoctrination of our society to force the belief that words can actually hurt someone. This instance and hundreds of others exist, where someone said something "insensitive" and for that they are forced to suffer for years (in this case possibly having to leave school...are you kidding me?
I teach my children exactly what should be taught, "stick and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me!" And by teaching them that concept, if and when a bully or insensitive person says something off color to them, instead of worrying about it, instead of contemplating it, instead of taking it to heart and internalizing it to a point where it begins to manifest as depression or something worse, my kids will be able to ignore it because they will know, that the words of an ignorant asshole are worth nothing and they will be able to inform their friends that the ignorant words of an asshole are worth nothing. Taking away the perceived power in a bullying situation. And they are taking karate and will begin MMA classes when they are old enough so that if they find themselves in a situation where a bully wants to get physical, they can handle that too!
Hammer and Sycamore
The Sycamore Level
The comments were made purely because of the color of the player's skin, and were intended to throw him off his game by pointing out "YOU'RE NOT WHITE" as if people who are not white must have a green card because they are not American.
Racism is unacceptable, and maybe these kids will learn something from this.
I also think that Dr. Keiser and Mr. Francis deserve props for maintaining a long history of our athletic bands as positive groups. That kind of behavior wouldn't fly in the Marching Sycamores or Basketball Band.
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And......
If the comments were intended to throw the kid off his game, and they yelled "your shoe is untied" that would be fine? But because they made a comment that would be made on Saturday Night Live or on a movie like superbad...that isn't ok?
I am not saying that they were not wrong, I am saying...it was words and words only. It wasn't a physical attack. Poor taste, bad idea....for sure!
Was it racist? Probably. Was it "hate speech"...not by definition. All I am saying is simple, we are all to sensitive to things people say...who cares what people say is what I am saying, people that I don't associate with in my life can say whatever they want because it has no bearing on my life whatsoever. I care about the people that have meaning in my life and I could care less if 5 kids in a band, yelled out, "Irish need not apply" or "F--- that Mc!" Over sensitivity to what others say is my point.
And I think the punishment is to harsh! A player on the court that says this type of thing ALL THE TIME in the heat of the moment don't even get technical fouls. Look at our own situation at Butler? That was far worse than this situation, far worse and nothing really happened like this.
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Hammer and Sycamore
The Sycamore Level
Of course "Your shoe is untied" would be fine. Racism's prevalence in American media does not make it acceptable, but since we're discussing this specific instance, I think those are irrelevant. The fact that you would even equate this to "Your shoe is untied" just shows how absolutely ignorant you are when it comes to race issues.
As a well educated, ISU alumnus with over 10 years of experience in higher education with multiple levels of responsibility. I assure you that I have not only an understanding but a well documented knowledge of not only the history of racism in our country but also the issues faced by minorities in our society especially within institutions of higher education within the past 3 decades. In fact I have the transcripts that would prove that I have studied this topic at length!
This is not an instance in which true racism was the intent. This was kids, yelling at a game and as you put it, 'trying to get him off his game". They should be reprimanded, they should be punished. But loosing their scholarships? Players don't even loose their scholarships for doing far, far worse.
My point about words is very valid. Our society has become too sensitive to words which has nothing to do with "ignorance" of racism. It has to do with giving power to people that choose to use words to push, bully, etc. Words are not hurtful and only cause problems when someone allows them to affect them. Ignorance is not knowing something. Ignoring is not allowing something to affect you. I vote for ignoring morons and focusing on what is important, my family, my career and my faith. Everything else is less than important....
Sackalot, you have done more than a commendable job of dissecting this issue. Kudos to you on a reasonable and prudent argument supporting your belief(s).
Once again, I will state what Dr. Fowler stated in my Political Science 101 class my freshman year, 1962. He said, "Free speech ends at the tip of another man's nose." In other words, once a situation goes from verbal to physical a line is drawn.
Yes, this "Political Correctness" crap has gone too far.
In closing, the player in post game interviews said that it really didn't have an impact on him because as a Puerto Rican he doesn't require a green card.
Once again, I will state what Dr. Fowler stated in my Political Science 101 class my freshman year, 1962. He said, "Free speech ends at the tip of another man's nose." In other words, once a situation goes from verbal to physical a line is drawn.
Yes, this "Political Correctness" crap has gone too far.
In closing, the player in post game interviews said that it really didn't have an impact on him because as a Puerto Rican he doesn't require a green card.
The difference here, in my eyes, is the fact that these students traded their band service for scholarship monies. Would a school administrator get off chanting this? Not a chance, so neither would a student that is "on the payroll" so to speak.
If it were just an ordinary student, I'd expect them to be removed from the student section and/or building. That's an aside from any underlying racial issues that would be involved. My point and commendation was in relation our similar issue and the addition of a table instead of addressing the issue with the students directly. While I agree you should abide by the "sticks and stones" theory, I believe students/fans can take it too far. Yelling at a ref that they are a "cunt" or that their "wife is a whore" goes well past the typical "you suck" diatribe.
If it were just an ordinary student, I'd expect them to be removed from the student section and/or building. That's an aside from any underlying racial issues that would be involved. My point and commendation was in relation our similar issue and the addition of a table instead of addressing the issue with the students directly. While I agree you should abide by the "sticks and stones" theory, I believe students/fans can take it too far. Yelling at a ref that they are a "cunt" or that their "wife is a whore" goes well past the typical "you suck" diatribe.
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Not arguing right or wrong but Sack has brought up the issue of a double standard. College athletes can do much worse and not have aid revoked. I think that they should have been punished, no doubt. I think the thing that is easy to forget that most college students are still kids. Just 2 or 3 years removed from living at home by a different set of rules for 18 years of your life. So at the end of the day we are talking about kids that made a mistake - did they have to revoke money to make them realize the mistake? No! To Sacks point, we have let kids/athletes get off for far worse.
So how is it tha Yancy Gates can punch a dude out like he did an still be playing - forget his schollie, the dude is still playing and has his team in the sweet 16. We are talking about "words", not physical violance like Gates - for the record, Gates punched a white player and not a single White American cried race.
So how is it tha Yancy Gates can punch a dude out like he did an still be playing - forget his schollie, the dude is still playing and has his team in the sweet 16. We are talking about "words", not physical violance like Gates - for the record, Gates punched a white player and not a single White American cried race.
Hammer and Sycamore
The Sycamore Level
How was race not a central factor in what the students were chanting? They didn't chant the same words at any White players—instead, they chanted it at a Latino student (the only Latino student on the K-State team!). Chanting such a phrase at a Latino student carries with it the inextricable implication that he was either an illegal alien without a green card and therefore in need of being deported, or a legal alien in possession of a green card. Both of these say one thing: "You are not from here (because you're not White)!"
I appreciate your passion. I also appreciate that in this instance, you believe that the motivation for chanting this was racially motivated. I just don't agree with you that the intent here was to attach this player because of his race. Rather this was a few students that were stupid and thought it would be funny and it was in poor taste and not acceptable.
However, elevating this behavior to inextricable implications is, IMHO taking it beyond what happened. Lets break it down like this...you continually point out this phrase was chanted because "you're not white". This implies that these young kids are white supremacy advocates. And with that type of rationale, these same students would also chant similar things when african american or philapino or even hawaiian players were on the court. They did not do this, so your rationale, IMHO doesn't hold up. This was simply some student members of the band making a bad decision, a mistake. And the media and the school reacting to it in the public eye.
I have every understanding and belief and personal experience that asking any Latino that is a citizen of the US if they have a green card can and often is offensive. And could easily be considered racist, depending on the situation in which the question is asked. I also have an understanding that for many Latinos that I am friends with, the issue of racism is not as superficial as a ridiculous chant such as this. The Latinos that I consider friends and neighbors would not be offended by this, rather they would be offended by actual actions taken again them or their families because they are Latino. The example I will give you is one that happened not 2 months ago. My wife and I along with a neighbor couple (from Mexico City but lived in US for over 30 years) were at dinner. My neighbor got up to go to the bathroom, when he did, another patron asked him if he could clean their table. When my neighbor responded, "I'm sorry, I don't work here" The partron responded, "huh, since you're a mexican I figured you did" My neighbor was shocked and said, "excuse me" and the patron proceeded to get up and explain that he would kick his ass out of the country...(I edited the real response). Then, the patron pushed my neighbor and proceeded to try to cause a fight with my neighbor. I got up and told the guy to "f-off" and since this guy was not very big at all and looked at myself, my neighbor, and several other patrons who were angered by all this he left, and then the manager came and informed the parton he was no longer welcome at his restaurant.
That is racist, that is a person that has every intention of bullying and trying to cause problems for a Latino man. That patron was a complete asshole and threatened physical harm and actually pushed my neighbor. 5 kids yelling idiotic and immature chants at a game...to me...is a world apart.
However, elevating this behavior to inextricable implications is, IMHO taking it beyond what happened. Lets break it down like this...you continually point out this phrase was chanted because "you're not white". This implies that these young kids are white supremacy advocates. And with that type of rationale, these same students would also chant similar things when african american or philapino or even hawaiian players were on the court. They did not do this, so your rationale, IMHO doesn't hold up. This was simply some student members of the band making a bad decision, a mistake. And the media and the school reacting to it in the public eye.
I have every understanding and belief and personal experience that asking any Latino that is a citizen of the US if they have a green card can and often is offensive. And could easily be considered racist, depending on the situation in which the question is asked. I also have an understanding that for many Latinos that I am friends with, the issue of racism is not as superficial as a ridiculous chant such as this. The Latinos that I consider friends and neighbors would not be offended by this, rather they would be offended by actual actions taken again them or their families because they are Latino. The example I will give you is one that happened not 2 months ago. My wife and I along with a neighbor couple (from Mexico City but lived in US for over 30 years) were at dinner. My neighbor got up to go to the bathroom, when he did, another patron asked him if he could clean their table. When my neighbor responded, "I'm sorry, I don't work here" The partron responded, "huh, since you're a mexican I figured you did" My neighbor was shocked and said, "excuse me" and the patron proceeded to get up and explain that he would kick his ass out of the country...(I edited the real response). Then, the patron pushed my neighbor and proceeded to try to cause a fight with my neighbor. I got up and told the guy to "f-off" and since this guy was not very big at all and looked at myself, my neighbor, and several other patrons who were angered by all this he left, and then the manager came and informed the parton he was no longer welcome at his restaurant.
That is racist, that is a person that has every intention of bullying and trying to cause problems for a Latino man. That patron was a complete asshole and threatened physical harm and actually pushed my neighbor. 5 kids yelling idiotic and immature chants at a game...to me...is a world apart.
Hammer and Sycamore
The Sycamore Level
I don't think they are and I don't think you need to be white supremacist to say something like this. I certainly don't think that it was any of the band members' intent to be racist and I do not think that they intentionally chanted what they did because the player was Latino. I can believe that, as the article from the OP says, the students are "sincerely remorseful." As you said, they made a bad decision—a mistake.
But intent doesn't matter when it comes to racism (and neither does Rodriguez's Puerto Rican citizenship). Racism is a combination of prejudice and privilege/power, not necessarily a combination of prejudice and hate. These students did not chant what they did out of conscious hate, but out of internalized attitudes about race in our society.
I can't speak for your Latino friends, and if they can let words roll past them, then I must imagine that that helps them a great deal in dealing with ignorant assholes. I think that the situation in question is one in which you can agree that there was no legitimate reason to ask for Rodriguez's green card. I think that, because of that lack of legitimacy and because the way Latino/as have been treated in this country (you cannot divorce racial epithets from historical perspective, because while they are "just words," they are much more than that in our society), what the students chanted was racist. Not hateful, but racist, and I don't think there's anything wrong with people asserting that racially-motivated chants should not be encouraged, especially by a uniformed, scholarship-based band that is immediately representative of the university.
That story is simply infuriating. But even if the asshole hadn't threatened your neighbor with physical violence, what he said was racist for much the same reasons as what the students chanted was racist—he suggested that since your neighbor was Mexican (and for no other reason! I'm assuming your neighbor was not dressed in a way that made him look like the restaurant's staff), he should clean his table. That is racist, and your story differs in that the man was hatefully racist, rather than simply ignorantly racist.
i've only read a few comments on here but the xavier Cincinnati had a brawl where people were physically trying to hurt one another in a violent matter. then after in the players interview they talk about being thugs and what not. and what do they get? suspended from games. these band members yelled out "where's your greencard?" in a close NCAA game and totally get there scholarships taken away???? that doesn't seem right to me. they were college kids at an exciting NCAA tournament game, yes what they said wasn't right, but holy crap taking their scholarships away is a little much.
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I still find it amazing when people act like just because they read about something or feel like they've educated themselves, they personally know what it's like. If your not a minority, how in the hell do you think you can really know what it's like to be one? There is plenty more I could say but I have decided to keep it at that. What happened was ignorant and a lot of these posts aren't far from it. Those students knew exactly what they were doing and how offensive it was. They represent that school and apparently that's not how the school wants to be represented, so they were held accountable. Maybe this conversation should be ended before it gets out of hand.
LOSING SCHOLARSHIPS! Are you kidding me????? These guys may never get a degree now or start life with a huge debt because in the heat of the moment they made a politically incorrect JOKE? What the hell is this world coming to?
Suspend them from a game. Yell at them. Tell them that was a dumb chant, but DON"T F up their lives! That's INSANE!
Political correctness has gotten so far out of hand in this country.
They should have been reprimanded, chewed out, etc..but losing scholarships for WORDS? REALLY?????
And Vick is a superstar in the NFL now. Welcome to America 2012. So so sad.
Yes, welcome to America 2012. What's sad is the wide disparity between minorities and whites still in this day and age in America. That is why if things are to get any better, whenever a little fire starts it has to be put out. If you say those types of things or allow others to without calling them out, then you are just as much a part of the problem. You want to make comparisons of what's fair? Really? Anyway you act like the player decided they should lose their scholarships, when it was the school decision.
What does bringing up Vick have to do with some racial BS some other people said? As F'd up as it was, where were you going with that?
nwi stater
The Captain Level
I bet this wouldn't happen at a hockey game.................................