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Bobbyk60 said:
Has nothing to do with Harp. I’m saying in year 2, Jamieson after rebuilding the program with Freshmen we’re in a MVC Title fight with Tulsa. So, ya, I think Jamieson did an outstanding job his Second year.
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Hmm... DuckDuckWent sez Tulsa was 0-0-0 in The Valley and 6-5 overall

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Care to clarify your statement
 

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EvilleSycamore said:
Here is a novel Idea! Why not implement the better the sport does and more they win the more money they get. This would be for ALL sports programs male and female instead of dumping good money on shitty football. How many years has Track/ Cross Country, Baseball, Softball, Now swimming been successful on shoestring budgets????? Reward them. This allows the football team the opportunity to earn it. Other programs at ISU are doing it with no money how about them. ISU is at a point it can't pay in excess of $100 million for ONE program that has never been successful, Sorry if that butt hurts anyone. if you reward success you will spend a hell of a lot less. Would you reall support a new stadium and indoor practice facility for this level of play? I will not. The football team Sucked in the late 80's when i was there, they still suck now, what does that say for the program?
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damn few schools can shell out $100M+ on a facillity - it isn't just Ind State

football should have been dropped when ISU went Div I (1972)
 
Sycamorefan96 said:
Going back 120 years to compare the two is grasping at straws. The basketball team was literally playing high schools back in the day. At least keep the argument to the Division 1 era. And you still never answered my question about Waltman and McKenna. Dodged it like a politician who refuses to be straight about their agenda or their past.

Students? What do they care about exactly? Attendance for either sport among the students is typically minimal and their tickets are "free". I imagine if we made it to Frisco in football or to the Final 4 in basketball there would be close to equal excitement among the students. The excitement baseball received should be a clue on how people would react to a deep football run.

If you asked the students who we were playing this week you'd probably get more correct answers than any other week. Most of them probably wish they were going to IU.

None of the students remember any of our NCAA wins. Most of them probably weren't even born yet when we beat Oklahoma. I don't even remember the Menser years and I'm 27.

I don't base my opinions on what a board of 15-20 regular posters thinks. We have several thousand fans show up to football and basketball games. There's more than 20 opinions out there. Just because most of this board of 15-20 gets all worked up over basketball doesn't mean that no one cares about football. Very small sample size.
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Since you're such a student of ISU football, you'll have to admit that the football program was ALSO playing HS "back in the day..." a record of 3-4-2.
some "seasons" simply consisted of the annual game vs. Rose Poly

You want to discuss "only Div I" -- ISU has more post-season appearances in it's MBB Div I history than does football and I'll be generous and include the Div I-AA/FCS era to the 11 seasons of Div I-A play, when they were "literally 1/2 game over .500"

Seasons: 11 (1975 to 1985)

Record (W-L-T): 60-59-1
 
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Bluethunder said:
And no one has still answered my question about what “success” for the football program looks like?

Is it a winning season? Playoffs once in awhile? Playoffs every other year? A finals appearance every ten years?

What is a successful football program at Indiana State?
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a successful football program at ISU?

It's a F**king Unicorn
 
Bluethunder said:
Not going to bite. And here is why. You changed the argument. SSOM pointed out the record of the program and that we have had a few winning seasons sprinkled in but over all no coach has had a winning record at Indiana State. You then chose to pick two coaches of basketball and try to make it about the individuals. But that was not the original argument. The football program has an overall winning percentage of .426. Every coach for the past five decades has left the school with a losing record. SSOM has been pointing out that it doesn’t matter who the coach is. It’s the program itself. We have too many things working against the program and not enough resources available to change its trajectory.

And the basketball program has an overall winning record of 53% or something close to it.
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.538 to be exact to football "stellar" .426
 

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Sycamorefan96 said:
I figured. Doesn't fit the narrative that football sucks and basketball doesn't.
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I posted it but do you think the fact that football costs 3-5x basketball there isn't opportunity cost there? Up to 10x when you realize you have to fund to Title IX requirements. When Miles had his year of success, Prettyman ramped up his funding to the top of the Valley while basketball remained in the bottom two next to Evansville for the entire decade. We have finite fucking resources so as long as football is sucking in the majority, all other programs are being held under water.

Secondly, basketball is the only revenue sport that the NCAA pays out. That matters. That means you can literally never break even on football unless you're selling 12-15k tickets a game and getting ample donations backing that up. Never happening. Meanwhile, ONE NCAA tournament appearance pays for nearly 10% of the basketball budget over the rolling window. If a team advances, that number climbs.

Financial literacy is as important as winning, especially in today's landscape where the P5 conferences are pulling further away.
 
I'll continue to maintain that ISU athletics in general are a huge money drain. You're either spending $18M combined on football and men's basketball or $14-18M on just men's basketball. I say $14-18M because we don't have the other sports that literally no one cares about if not for those two and they're the only two that actually sell a decent amount of tickets.

Tix Revenue from season long sell outs at current prices: (pipe dream)
Football= $990,000
MBB= $2.7M

Tix Revenue 75% cap all year: (likely a pipe dream)
FB= $742,500
MBB= $2.025M

Tix Rev 50% cap: (good year)
FB= $495,000
MBB= $1.350M

Tix Rev 25% Cap: (average year)
FB= $247,500
MBB= $675,000

Yes ISU sells concessions stands items and what not too, but the 25-50% capacity is reality. ISU wouldn't even be Division 1 if it wasn't extorting the money from the students. Some of you go on and on about donations. We're not SMU. None of us can help ISU break even. Some of you want ISU to spend $18M a year on 3 days in St Louis hoping the ball bounces the right way. It's so freaking stupid.

There's also the conference distributions for MBB from the NCAA Tournament. Football gets somewhere around $500,000 when they play a power conference school. Still no where close to breaking even.

No one can justify any of our athletics. We all just like to watch them.
 
Bluethunder said:
And no one has still answered my question about what “success” for the football program looks like?

Is it a winning season? Playoffs once in awhile? Playoffs every other year? A finals appearance every ten years?

What is a successful football program at Indiana State?
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On the low end for both FB and MBB:

6-5. You went 6-4 against like competition losing the FBS money game. The community recognizes the team as having a winning season and a good year.

For basketball a 20 win season is a successful season. The community recognizes the team as "having a pretty good year". Anything less than 20 is generally viewed as mediocrity.
 
Sycamorefan96 said:
On the low end for both FB and MBB:

6-5. You went 6-4 against like competition losing the FBS money game. The community recognizes the team as having a winning season and a good year.
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Ok, so next question is what is it going to take to get there consistently? Last year we won 1-2 games I believe, and this year doesn’t look much better to start off with. So what does the program need to happen in order to get to a place where a 6-5 season is the norm, not just a once a decade aberration?
 

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Bluethunder said:
Ok, so next question is what is it going to take to get there consistently? Last year we won 1-2 games I believe, and this year doesn’t look much better to start off with. So what does the program need to happen in order to get to a place where a 6-5 season is the norm, not just a once a decade aberration?
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We need a combination of a competent athletic department and a competent coaching staff. It's okay to make the wrong hires as long as you were hiring based on their qualifications at the time, but it's not okay to make feel good hires like Lou West. It's also not okay to double down on a bad hire. Mallory's last extension was completely unjustified. Clink basically pulled Prettyman and now we're stuck for 5 years hoping things don't get "too bad", even though I think several posters on here would actually enjoy seeing it get that way.
 
Sycamorefan96 said:
We need a combination of a competent athletic department and a competent coaching staff. It's okay to make the wrong hires as long as you were hiring based on their qualifications at the time, but it's not okay to make feel good hires like Lou West. It's also not okay to double down on a bad hire. Mallory's last extension was completely unjustified. Clink basically pulled Prettyman and now we're stuck for 5 years hoping things don't get "too bad", even though I think several posters on here would actually enjoy seeing it get that way.
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"It doesn't get too bad"???????? WTH WAKE UP KID what is it now if it's not too bad?!?!?! The football program can be summed up by one saying for the last 40 plus years. The definition of insanity or ISU Football or ISU as a whole today- Repeating the same process and hoping for a different result. Well guess what, it hasn't worked, it isn't working, it won't work time to ditch this pig and save the losses. If my businesses operated like this program I would have shut them down 35 years ago that is reality in the business world and maybe this needs to be looked at like a business instead of a hobby that it is now.
 
Bobbyk60 said:
Yes, it was Southern I was thinking of. Regardless, Second year Coach J did an outstanding job. Otherwise, go pick a fight with another. Tired of your crap.
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Testy testy -- put more cane sugar in the caffeine. I'll guess you're not a fan of fact-checking?

But just SMH @ using Dick Jamieson as a marker of Great ISU football is curious at best -- he had what ties to the university before he landed the job? He spent two seasons and jumped to the NFL. Of his two seasons, he had success in one. Had he stayed and ran the program for ~15 year, he'd be worth more attention

Tree football needs to go the way of the dodo bird and wooly mammoth.
 

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sycamore tuff said:
Nothing says DI like dropping football.
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Not sure thats the flex you think it is. Lots of very successful D1 colleges do not have football.

While I would love to have a solid D1 football program, it just doesn't seem to be in the cards and we keep pumping in dollars only to get zero ROI. We are the low end of the conference competitively and facility wise. The amount of money it would take to build this into a quality program is unreachable for this university as it is currently sits. We have an extremely small window of opportunity with our men's basketball team to capitalize on its success. If we can't come up with a way to retain this staff (head coach) then we will lose out on some much needed national attention, NCAA revenue and a sure fire increase of prospective student applications. Those things are good ROI for money put into a program....if you increase basketball budget $1-2 million per year and they get you good national publicity, NCAA money shares and a 20% increase in prospective students....where do you lose?
 
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