[January 8, 2025] Indiana State (9-6) at Valparaiso (9-6)

[SycamoreStateofMind]

2 OT losses in the Valley, is what it is. WhatI'm more concerned about it Graves ability to coach in close situations.

Right - I feel this on one hand and I feel the rotation issues as we’ve discussed.

But on the other hand… I also think you have to take into account he’s got a really young and inexperienced team so getting them to execute at a high level in high leverage situations ain’t easy. It’s especially difficult when you really evaluate the overall talent of this roster. I think he’s done a remarkable job to have them competing this well - this was a game where in the past I feel like we would have easily folded the tent, Bradley game similar but at home - like he’s done some bad and he’s done some really good I feel.

Sorta like this team - a mixed bag.

 

[jturner38]

Not completely on Graves, players made some idiotic decisions. The Teel foul, the bad shot by AG, Legree turnover, I mean we can go down the line.

 

[EvilleSycamore]

Right - I feel this on one hand and I feel the rotation issues as we’ve discussed.

But on the other hand… I also think you have to take into account he’s got a really young and inexperienced team so getting them to execute at a high level in high leverage situations ain’t easy. It’s especially difficult when you really evaluate the overall talent of this roster. I think he’s done a remarkable job to have them competing this well - this was a game where in the past I feel like we would have easily folded the tent, Bradley game similar but at home - like he’s done some bad and he’s done some really good I feel.

Sorta like this team - a mixed bag.

But you also have to consider actions and decisions reflect leadership and how they prep the team not just for a game but for a season. You have to agree this is not happening no where near the level need. Maybe as you say “high leverage “ situations are exposing weakness not only in players but the coaching staff too

 

[RunSyc]

I'm choosing not to be critical of HCMG this year. Had a month delay with the portal, near complete roster overhaul, new coaching staff, except Coach Furr, young team (as SSOM stated).

Maybe I'm too lenient, but that's my perspective.
Glad the turnovers were improved. Free throws & lack of disciplined D, yikes. Hope we see this team learn to preserver in close games.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

But you also have to consider actions and decisions reflect leadership and how they prep the team not just for a game but for a season. You have to agree this is not happening no where near the level need. Maybe as you say “high leverage “ situations are exposing weakness not only in players but the coaching staff too

At the end of the day you got what you got…

Him having this roster ready to play night in and night out - compete - play unselfishly has been one of the better coaching jobs I’ve seen. This roster is much less talented than many we’ve seen before it over the years - I’d have to go back and find something comparable in the archives.

I think it can be both - he can be criticized for his questionable rotations and late game decisions and praised for this team fighting like hell and not giving in.

It’s what you see with a lot of young inexperienced teams they are finding different ways to lose games. A lot of times it’s been turnovers, tonight it was defense - specifically playing defense without fouling and missing foul shots. This team has been very foul prone at times - we were discussing it in the Ohio State game thread leading up to this game. Like one of the worst defensive teams I’ve watched in awhile - that was a piss poor defensive effort today. Valpo ISO’d us and when man on man and just took it to us.

 

[March On]

In OT things are always magnified, but it is important for everyone on the court to understand the situations and their role in the game. We didn't make smart plays and get guys in position to be successful in the last 2 mins of OT. Some of that is coaching but some of that is on the guys on the court too. Silver lining is that the team continues to compete no matter what the score is at any point in the game. I appreciate that immensely. I honestly thought when we were down 12 that we might lose by 20! Keep getting better......alot of games left!

 

[TreeTop]

Bummer loss.

 

[SycamoreBlue3209]

Teel 1 for his last 12 from deep is VERY problematic moving forward…

I said this late in the game. Dude is tired. Lost his shot from deep and only getting things at the rim (missed bunnies due to loss of explosiveness).

We dealt with some exhaustion last year, but we also had enough blowouts that provided some rest. We’re not going to get those breaks this year.

LeGree is going to have to clean up his handle to get some minutes without Teel on the floor.

Overall, I’m happy we didn’t fold when we were down 11, but upset we couldn’t finish two games we were in the drivers seat.
You’re judged by wins and losses and we haven’t finished, but did anyone expect us to be 5-0 right now?? Got a real tough 3 games coming up and need to take care of business at home.

 

[skdent1414]

In today’s college game it’s almost an automatic foul when you see a post defender reach or do any motion to swat down. It’s also an automatic whistle when you hand check out front. My question is why do players not adapt? Why get greedy and do this when you get called 95% of the time? Is it just instinct to go after the ball and they can’t help it? Just go straight up and if they make the shot you did what you could.

One more point to make. We were down 3 on the last possession of the game and it seemed like we opened the door for them to foul us instead of shooting a quick shot. Why in today’s game would you chance that? Just shoot it with 10-12 seconds left and if you miss you still have a rebound chance. Hell with waiting for the perfect look with 3 seconds to go.

 

[TreeTop]

One more point to make. We were down 3 on the last possession of the game and it seemed like we opened the door for them to foul us instead of shooting a quick shot. Why in today’s game would you chance that? Just shoot it with 10-12 seconds left and if you miss you still have a rebound chance. Hell with waiting for the perfect look with 3 seconds to go.

Yeah, I was surprised Valpo didn’t try fouling and I was yelling at our guys to shoot a three.

 

[hans1950]

After his first half Vorst has to get even more of Hardings' minutes. If we don't play better defense we've got problems. Can't always outscore the other guy. Once again our fight to get back in the game was impressive, can't coach that. Legree has to play so Teel can get a break. Teel played 42 minutes tonight, way too much. I think Walker can still help this season too,we'll see if he gets a chance. Once again more lessons hopefully learned by a really young team.

 

[GoSycamores]

VALPARAISO, Ind. – Indiana State men's basketball fell on Wednesday night at Valparaiso in an 98-95 contest that saw the Sycamores' second overtime game since the new year. Indiana State fell to 9-7, 3-2 MVC while Valparaiso improved to 10-6, 3-2 MVC.

More...

 

[BlueBleeder]

I fear that Vorst will enter the portal.

If this is his usage, then he should. He just showed you some very solid play in the first half.....WHEN YOU DESPERATELY NEEDED IT, then gets put back on the shelf to never see another minute. Starting to really question Graves' in game personnel decisions.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

I think one of the biggest issues is we didn’t have @Jason Svoboda here with us most of the night… Just didn’t have the same flow to it here either without his guidance.

 

[jturner38]

It’s always funny when other fans of opponents want to come and read our forum and want to complain that we “bitch and “whine” when we dissect the game.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

It’s always funny when other fans of opponents want to come and read our forum and want to complain that we “bitch and “whine” when we dissect the game.

What was said?

lol this forum myself included would have a little something for everyone given the amount of active posters we have here.

They should strive to have this much engagement - not just Valpo about every fan forum on the planet. Should also be noted that we spend more time on here (like most fan forums) bitching about our own teams performance than anything else… All fan forums are the same - certainly if you’ve come here for some validation or to dissect every post you’re doing it all wrong. Get a life - like for real.

The way that game was officiated last night from a watch ability perspective was miserable - but they were consistent. Making it worse we had to listen to the worst announcers in the history explain to us what a good call was and just emphatically imply it was an amazing college basketball game. Ummm no it was not.

 

[RunSyc]

Was Vorst on a pitch count yesterday? Returning from injury, hasn't played much recently, perhaps he didn't have enough game conditioning to play extended minutes in yesterday's game. It took AG a couple games coming back from injury to get up to speed. My best guess why Vorst didn't get run in 2nd half.

 

[treeman]

Here is Treeman's in-person point of view of the game.

The Bad:
- Graves rotation. I've been pretty impressed with Graves this year as far as just getting us to a point of being competitive. We DON'T have the most talented roster and here we are competing night in and night out and could easily be 5-0 with a 2 game lead on everyone. Honestly after the FAU and first few weeks of the season I'm willing to be most knowledgable fans would take 3-2 and 2 overtime losses to start the conference season. However yesterdays rotation was just bad. Multiple times I was sitting in the stands and I was telling my buddy (who doesn't follow ISU) "I don't like this line-up". Harding just has to sit at this point. I really like JD coming off the bench and as along as he gets starter minutes I'm good with him coming off the bench to provide a spark. With the way Vorst played; how does he not see the floor the 2nd half? He is rusty, it showed the first couple of possessions but he played pretty darn well and made multiple plays multiple ways majority of his run. Right now I'm starting Vorst with JD coming in for him pretty quickly until he gets some stamina. Bruno hasn't done much if anything lately, not sure who you start in front of him but at this point I'm at least getting Walker in pretty quickly and seeing what he can do. Gray has played pretty well the last 2 games, however I don't think he is the answer. LeGree has fallen off lately, just not a good finisher and now much of a shooter, really not much of a scoring threat at this point in his career. I like him going forward but needs to work on finishing. But in a weird way, this is where I'm impressed with Graves, because if you aren't getting much from MULTIPLE positions and there really isn't anyone to put in over them, it's pretty impressive that we are actually playing decently.

The Good:
Just like the Bradley game, I thought we did a real good job of fighting back into the game. There was that moment when we were hovering around 10-12 points down and it could have REAL easy for us to just pack it in and lost by 20+. Really proud of the team for fighting back into it. That's tough to do when everything is a foul, Valpo was hitting at a good clip from 3, and we couldn't buy a free throw. As I said before Vorst did some really good things for us out there, can't believe he didn't get a run the 2nd half.

The ugly:
The refs. Let me first say the refs were pretty bad on BOTH sides, they were just bad refs. The entire arena was getting pretty annoyed by it. I was walking before some VU students after the game and they were complaining about just too many fouls in the game. When you can't make your free throws, that's not a good thing. But there were a few fouls that particularly horrible.
- I don't know how you don't even look at the potential goal-tending in the first half. I don't know if it was or not but once the TV time out game the refs didn't even go the monitors. They just stood around talking and smiling. Like how do you not just go back and make sure?
- LeGree had a CLEAN steal at mid-court that would have led to an easy lay-up when we were making a comeback in the 2nd half. That was an absolutely horrible call. Even a delusional VU fan that complained about everything turned around and said "yeah that was a real bad call" when I was losing my mind.
- It probably didn't change anything Bruno was called for a foul when the VU ball handler just shoved him with his forearm. I was right in line with the ref and I have no idea how you call that on Bruno.
- And honestly maybe the worst call of the game was something you probably couldn't tell on TV. Teel was just holding the ball at the wing near the sideline the 2nd half. The VU defender SLAPPED THE SHIT OUT OF TEELS ARM. I mean it was pretty quit in the gym in that moment and it sounded like someone just slapped someones ass and is going to be deported to Alcatraz for it. The ball ended up just going out of bounds and it was still our ball but Teel about lost his mind when it wasn't called a foul and it's hard to fault him.

Other shit:
The student section was riding Grays balls hard. Which was fun to watch. I think it was because he missed that dunk in front of them but the rest of the game there were about 4-5 students in the front row jawing with Gray. it went on during time-outs and anytime AG was in the area. As long as it doesn't get out of hand I love the passion of Missouri Valley basketball. I'd much rather have that then a conference of people just sitting on their hands.

 

[Huff77]

I'm wondering if the rule is that you can review a called goaltending, but not a no-call. If that is the rule, then you have to call it goaltending every time it's close so that you have the opportunity to get it right.

Regardless....we have lost 2 games by a combined 4 points and haven't even come close to playing a perfect game. We have 2 months to StL and our best basketball is still ahead of us.

Alderink needs some run.

 

[SycamoreStateofMind]

Was Vorst on a pitch count yesterday? Returning from injury, hasn't played much recently, perhaps he didn't have enough game conditioning to play extended minutes in yesterday's game. It took AG a couple games coming back from injury to get up to speed. My best guess why Vorst didn't get run in 2nd half.

Naaa that was a coaching decision. No chance it was a pitch count.