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southernindianaballer said:
I could defend it if I wanted to or if I made a statement that warranted defending... I said, "if ISU truly wants..." so there is nothing to defend... It is quite obvious that if any entity truly wants any particular thing bad enough they will find a way to get it - at least in most cases - so it is an implied assumption.
ISU has no problem finding that kind of money each year for expansion projects... and then some...
Frankly, I think an indoor facility without the conference area is something ISU can go alone... I new stadium is in the master plan.
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The money that ISU "finds" is appropriated via the University's bonding authority with approval if the State of Indiana government. Unless things have changed, the state does not allow that bonding authority for construction of athletic facilities.

Dr Bradley was / is fan of college football... He never "found" the money, ergo, in your world he didn't REALLY want football...

Ill be shocked, pleasantly, IF ISU ever builds a new football stadium. I don't think it will happen.
 

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4Q_iu said:
The money that ISU "finds" is appropriated via the University's bonding authority with approval if the State of Indiana government. Unless things have changed, the state does not allow that bonding authority for construction of athletic facilities.

Dr Bradley was / is fan of college football... He never "found" the money, ergo, in your world he didn't REALLY want football...

Ill be shocked, pleasantly, IF ISU ever builds a new football stadium. I don't think it will happen.
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You are correct about funding... Keep in mind that schools the size of ISU are able to start fund raising programs for projects this size all the time... So it's doable and the donors do not have to be ISU grads. If they want to do it - they can find the money. Do they really want to do it? It's been discussed a million times on this site.

A few facts that prompted the discussion this time:

Heard some officials were looking at the riverfront area for some sort of large convention site.
ISU needs a football stadium on the riverfront - it's in their campus plan.
Recently, TH/Vigo announced approval to move forward with plans and will likely start construction in 2019. Yes we have heard these type of things before.
The Hulman Center renovation is starting soon and it has been stated by officials that a football solution/planning could start (discussions I assume) following the start of the of Hulman construction.
 
southernindianaballer said:
You are correct about funding... Keep in mind that schools the size of ISU are able to start fund raising programs for projects this size all the time... So it's doable and the donors do not have to be ISU grads. If they want to do it - they can find the money. Do they really want to do it? It's been discussed a million times on this site.

A few facts that prompted the discussion this time:

Heard some officials were looking at the riverfront area for some sort of large convention site.
ISU needs a football stadium on the riverfront - it's in their campus plan.
Recently, TH/Vigo announced approval to move forward with plans and will likely start construction in 2019. Yes we have heard these type of things before.
The Hulman Center renovation is starting soon and it has been stated by officials that a football solution/planning could start (discussions I assume) following the start of the of Hulman construction.
Click to expand...


School size has absolutely nothing to do with starting "fund raising programs" --- it's about the Will to do it, the Need to do it AND the ABILITY of donors, alumni or otherwise to contribute.

The master plan is a PLAN; when it, IF it, gets put into action - that's another story.

TH/Vigo announced plans to construct... what? A Convention Center? A Football Stadium? I read a lot of coulds, may, perhaps in both stories you provided. I did NOT read, Tax Bill Passes, Vigo County WILL enact Food & Beverage...

"stated by officials that a football solution/planning COULD start..."

Again, I'll be surprised, pleasantly, IF a new football stadium is ever built
 
4Q_iu said:
School size has absolutely nothing to do with starting "fund raising programs" --- it's about the Will to do it, the Need to do it AND the ABILITY of donors, alumni or otherwise to contribute.

The master plan is a PLAN; when it, IF it, gets put into action - that's another story.

TH/Vigo announced plans to construct... what? A Convention Center? A Football Stadium? I read a lot of coulds, may, perhaps in both stories you provided. I did NOT read, Tax Bill Passes, Vigo County WILL enact Food & Beverage...

"stated by officials that a football solution/planning COULD start..."

Again, I'll be surprised, pleasantly, IF a new football stadium is ever built
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Understand your positions... Looks like the state approved the tax. The county needs to approve now, which they may have already done... not sure... Look forward to the next reads in local paper to see what the decisions will be...
 
southernindianaballer said:
Understand your positions... Looks like the state approved the tax. The county needs to approve now, which they may have already done... not sure... Look forward to the next reads in local paper to see what the decisions will be...
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I don't think the tax is that big of a deal. The only piece that will really assist is if there is a convention center included, correct? So let's remove that from the equation and just look at what you've said and what ISU's "needs" are.

If their goal is to get all athletics facilities West of 41, that means football, soccer and softball, right? So realistically, you're likely looking at two new facilities and one expansion if you're doing it right IMO.

For football, you obviously would need to build a new stadium. If Terre Haute is piggybacking on this facility with convention center needs, that obviously will drive up the costs of the facility. If that is the case, I'd hope it is a completely indoor facility. Second, softball would need a new facility. I assume this would go over near Bob Warn. Third, if I had my druthers, soccer would play on the infield of the track facility as that would require (I'd think) the track to get more deserved upgrades -- additional seating/lighting/restrooms, whatever they still need that wasn't part of previous "phases" of the project.

So what does that cost? $35 million? $40 million? More? It always comes down to fundraising and people coming up off their money. So if we've had less than $1m (between $600-800k) in donations over the last several years per financial reports, even if the new fundraising folks are miracle workers, will fans, friends and alumni decide to remove the padlock off of their wallets and pony up? THAT is always the question. For that reason, I love the idea but you can put me in the "believe it when I see it" category because I don't have faith in my fellow alums.
 
I would imagine an ideal situation for all parties is:

TH/Vigo continues to spend the estimated 38 million or about that.
ISU puts forth a few million.
ISU and TH/Vigo reach a long term lease arrangement for football.
All entities have to be willing to want 5000-12000 people in the downtown area 6 or 7 times a year.
 

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southernindianaballer said:
I would imagine an ideal situation for all parties is:

TH/Vigo continues to spend the estimated 38 million or about that.
ISU puts forth a few million.
ISU and TH/Vigo reach a long term lease arrangement for football.
All entities have to be willing to want 5000-12000 people in the downtown area 6 or 7 times a year.
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You want a city that is almost belly up financially to fund a football stadium? For a school that already act like it doesn't exist and that has a program that hasn't been a consistent winner since the 80's? Well, if that is somehow swung, I'd definitely consider this administration miracle workers.

:roflmao:
 
Jason Svoboda said:
You want a city that is almost belly up financially to fund a football stadium? For a school that already act like it doesn't exist and that has a program that hasn't been a consistent winner since the 80's? Well, if that is somehow swung, I'd definitely consider this administration miracle workers.

:roflmao:
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Yes... I do, as a matter of fact! LOL As you know, when a business or any entity is struggling financially, the worse thing to do is settle, embrace complacency, accept failure, accept financial ineptness as a norm, and not take calculated chances. Instead, you fight, look for opportunities and basically do the opposite of what I just mentioned.
What TH/Vigo has is an opportunity to create a lease agreement with ISU to help pay down the debt quickly on the facility. They already have a way to create 2+ million per year (via tax stream), bundle that with a ISU lease and other revenue opportunities and you have an ROI that may be less than 15 years, easily on a 45 million dollar facility, while also making a bit of profit along the way of becoming facility debt free. BTW - this brings several thousand people downtown for home games - what the city needs and wants. It also gives high schools and change to play indoors & downtown a couple times a year, perhaps.

Opportunities for additional revenue:

Concession $$ for all events.
AAU basketball and volleyball to help fill the summer months. Multiple courts, etc.... FYI Evansville does not have a quality venue for this that holds 6 courts, etc. Not a huge profit maker but you can make a small profit. Also brings in 700+ players and with several families/teams spending the night.
Supplement the Diesel fest and bring people downtown.
Other obvious opportunities that a convention center with large floor space creates...

For ISU - it is obviously good for several reasons not worth mentioning.

As far as ISU football being a perennial loser... whatever - they can fight their way back and new facilities may help a tad.

:cheeky:
 
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southernindianaballer said:
:blink:
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My bad. I thought you had to be on some mind altering substance to actually believe what you posted.

They could have ponied up $12.5m to fund the Hulman Center convention center which would have made MUCH MORE sense being in the heart of downtown and next to hotels for, you know, the "conventions" they'd be hosting. Instead, they're supposed to cough up 3-5x the amount to built a multi-use football stadium taking on ALL financial liability minus leasing the facility to us for 5-6 home games per year?

As for your other "ideas", you're suddenly morphing a $30-40m football/convention center into a $75-80m multi-sport facility? So now you want them to double-triple down on everything? Seriously, you're telling me you're not hitting the peace pipe over there? This has nothing to do with accepting failure, either, so spare me of that bullshit cop out. When you're in financial dire straights, you had better hit big on whatever huge capital improvement projects you go after. Thompson Thrift can't even get businesses to town and rent out the business space in 500 Wabash but we're suddenly going to become a convention and AAU tournament juggernaut?

If Indiana State is ever going to get a new football stadium, it is going to have to be funded on the backs of it's alumni. You retain ownership of the land and facilities. You never allow an outside entity to put a gun to your head and leverage your ability to do anything. So, coming full circle and let's stop with the convention center nonsense, how do you propose we get alumni to open their wallets?

Lastly, you can dislike the perennial loser comment, but the truth hurts especially when its factual. That is both the inside perception from students (my son was the SGA President and this was told to him over and over by students) and is still the outside perception among fans and alumni (see attendance numbers) as well as FCS opponents and fans (feel free to read other team forums, AnyGivenSaturday, etc). You only change that will winning yearly over 5, 7 or 10 years so let's take that off the table and just focus on the paragraph above because even low performing programs have been able to raise capital before to turn things around.

So again, I post to you and anyone else playing at home, how do you propose we get alumni to open their wallets?
 
This isn't a Field of Dreams scenario... respectfully speaking... It's just a matter of fact that the community "might" move forward with 38 million for a convention center. Fact is, different designs and locations can be considered when looking at the big picture and all potential utilizations... I hear many say that ISU leaders and alum can't raise any money... if that's the case then consider a lease/rent and get a top notch facility. Little capital investment and no long term maintenance issues for ISU. For TH - they get another utilization for 6 or 7 events per year and another client. AAU tournament juggernaut - sure - if having 50 or so teams in town for a tournament classifies as your juggernaut - then that's what it can be. I also recall many wanted a convention center in TH - Have many changed their mind?? Some were pretty upset about it being pulled from the Hulman Center. Sounds like you don't want a convention center in TH or am I misreading?
I am with you on fundraising... I don't think ISU will ever be able to raise that kind of money. I mean, it's doable but history tells us they don't have a yearning and desire to work hard enough to make it happen... of course, we are under some new leadership, athletically, so I have some hope. With the questionable future of FCS football as posed by many on this forum as an issue - what if they are right? What if all these other FCS schools upgrading their stadiums are doing it for nothing because FCS will bust? This all leads to a safe option with no ties to long term maintenance and forced utilization... Lease.

Sure - owning can be better.... most of the time.

Their are several ideas all of us have for raising $$ as they have been listed several times... Other schools implement them every day. I can't think of anything that hasn't been mentioned already.

Some of this is a matter of perspective I assume - this video does a really good job of showing how one's perspective can change a decision.
 
SycamoreStateofMind said:
Finances aren't good. Don't settle - go all in and invest in Indiana State Football.

Got it...
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Nope... Just modify the convention idea slightly to allow football... The owner gets a new client who can't afford another 40 million, apparently. To clarify, they must be all in with the ideal to make money in regards to the facility. They need to capture every utilization option available... The ROI will be there to cover the design modifications when looking at lease revenue.
I understand you may want to convert all these DBs, RBs, and receivers to track and field sports... but hey, let's keep football if we can. LOL
 
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Do me a quick favor. Draw out some simple math for me and post it. I want to see how Terre Haute gets any ROI within 50 years once you add in the bonds and interest payments.
 
It seems to me that Terre Haute is intent on building a convention center. Now, what that means to the city "leaders" (and I use that term loosely) isn't entirely clear.

I think, if this is their wish, they really have two options - 1. Build a beautiful "centerpiece" convention center in an attempt to not only draw small conventions and industry meetings, but also to spur further development in the area of said convention center, or 2. Build a small center that is just intended to host local meetings. There are positives for both, in terms of the city/county "needing" to build a convention center.

Obviously, cost is an issue, as the City of Terre Haute has serious financial problems. The County seems to be intent on build their own little empire, and they want total control. Not sure how that's gonna work with the City and the CVB. Should be entertaining to watch.

Long term, if you just have to build a convention center, option 1 makes more sense, but only if the entity that's building it can afford to build it and maintain it. There's no sense in building a meeting space for local groups. If they're not going to try to attract the types of events that the city is not already getting, they'll be wasting money.

But this is the group that turned down a $1 lease for land on the federal pen's property for a new jail because they didn't think of it first. So, anything is possible. :lol:
 
IndyTreeFan said:
It seems to me that Terre Haute is intent on building a convention center. Now, what that means to the city "leaders" (and I use that term loosely) isn't entirely clear.

I think, if this is their wish, they really have two options - 1. Build a beautiful "centerpiece" convention center in an attempt to not only draw small conventions and industry meetings, but also to spur further development in the area of said convention center, or 2. Build a small center that is just intended to host local meetings. There are positives for both, in terms of the city/county "needing" to build a convention center.

Obviously, cost is an issue, as the City of Terre Haute has serious financial problems. The County seems to be intent on build their own little empire, and they want total control. Not sure how that's gonna work with the City and the CVB. Should be entertaining to watch.

Long term, if you just have to build a convention center, option 1 makes more sense, but only if the entity that's building it can afford to build it and maintain it. There's no sense in building a meeting space for local groups. If they're not going to try to attract the types of events that the city is not already getting, they'll be wasting money.

But this is the group that turned down a $1 lease for land on the federal pen's property for a new jail because they didn't think of it first. So, anything is possible. :lol:
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That just further illustrates my point that a joint project doesn't make sense. IF they needed a convention center, wouldn't it make more sense to package it with the casino project they were looking at? That way you get the casino, convention center and likely an attached hotel and it can be paid for by a food/beverage tax AND casino tax. THAT would make the most sense for Terre Haute financially and that is what they should be exploring along the riverfront. It doesn't make sense for the city to build a football stadium to rent to us for a couple Saturdays during the Fall.

Which brings me back to a football stadium. It appears Indiana State wants an all of the athletics facilities West of 41. It was in the original master plan from back in 2013. What I posted above in #25 is what I still think they should strive for. Ball is in the court of Dr. Curtis, Clink, the SAF and new fundraising crew to make it a reality. Put up or shut up time, basically.
 
Jason Svoboda said:
That just further illustrates my point that a joint project doesn't make sense. IF they needed a convention center, wouldn't it make more sense to package it with the casino project they were looking at? That way you get the casino, convention center and likely an attached hotel and it can be paid for by a food/beverage tax AND casino tax. THAT would make the most sense for Terre Haute financially and that is what they should be exploring along the riverfront. It doesn't make sense for the city to build a football stadium to rent to us for a couple Saturdays during the Fall.

Which brings me back to a football stadium. It appears Indiana State wants an all of the athletics facilities West of 41. It was in the original master plan from back in 2013. What I posted above in #25 is what I still think they should strive for. Ball is in the court of Dr. Curtis, Clink, the SAF and new fundraising crew to make it a reality. Put up or shut up time, basically.
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Terre Haute isn’t going to partner with ISU on anything. In fact, I think Terre Haute might just build an indoor football facility just so they can deny ISU a lease on using it! :lol:

Pairing a resort/casino with the CC would make sense. And that’s why it’ll probably never happen.
 
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