Just curious - Keep football or don't?

[4Q_iu]

That’s the huge piece of the puzzle the other guys are choosing to ignore. For some reason, dropping football will solve the athletic problems. If the students didn’t want to pay for it, then they would say so.

How many KNOW they're funding it?

 

[4Q_iu]

You are correct sir. South Dakota State is the NCAA D1 champion.

Not according to the NCAA

https://www.ncaa.org/sports/2021/5/11/division-i-championships.aspx

They list the Div I football Championship as Div I FCS

 

[Bluethunder]

It's been a series of steps that has gotten it to the place of no return:

1) First, I'll put onus on President Landini and administration in the late 70's for not properly capitalizing on the strength of the athletics program as a whole. He eventually owned up to it later, but it was the first big domino. That would have been the time for Indiana State to move up to the MAC off the backs of both revenue sports being very good as well as non-revenue sports putting out Olympians.

"You seize the day, and we did not," said Richard Landini, president of Indiana State. "We did not build upon that reputation, that extraordinary three years of Bird. It was a combination of inexperience, a lack of vision at the time."

2) Fast forward to the 90s, where they probably let Dennis Raetz stay too long. Was he a great guy? Yep. Was he great in the community? Also yes. Was he a great coach? Nope. He had 2 winning seasons in 13 years after the playoff appearances. While the program was stagnant to declining, peers were building. That would have been the time to start fundraising for an on campus stadium, and again, Indiana State administration lacked vision. Then they let him stay, and stay, and stay.

3) The hiring of Andi Myers and the gutting of the football program through her leadership. Whether it was true or not, the underlying belief was she was hired to eliminate football. We saw a nepotism hire (from the Raetz tree) in Tim McGuire and then the ultimate hire of all-time in Lou "What's Football?" West. However, if closing the program was truly the goal, cowardice to gut them but not put them out of their misery won out and instead we were essentially funding a program at a D2 level.

4) But not all was lost... Trent Miles answered the call and returned home and despite lack of funding, started turning the program around. When he started, he was not even allowed to fully recruit out-of-region players and he had no budget. He signed some key recruits on both sides of the ball and the program became respectable. By his last year, the school started pumping money into the program (off the backs of the students, but hey, enrollment was trending up, up, up) but Trent took the big Georgia State payday and we were onto the Sanford era. After Miles recruits aged out, Sanford was quickly gone and is now coaching HS ball here in Vegas.

5) Those early 2010s was a time where fans had exciting football, the onus turned to them to show they would be willing to support the program. They didn't. Average paid attendance for the decade was in the 5k range (ranked in the high 70s to low 80s out of 115 FCS teams) which is simply not enough to sustain a program financially without heavy student or school subsidies.

6) Onto Mallory. Cut from the Raetz cloth, he is by all accounts a great man and community leader. Unfortunately, he is stuck in the 90's with his offensive philosophy and the game has passed him by. Or, if you believe his offense can win in today's age, he is a below average recruiter or talent evaluator. This is year 7 and his best finish was the 7-4 year. You remove that and he is 12-35 through 2 games this year. What would you do to a coach with a 33% winning percentage? Extend him through 2027 obviously!

7) Finally, the college football landscape has drastically changed over the last decade. We've seen the consolidation among power conferences, we've seen media deals push those power schools further off the competitive landscape, we've seen the introduction of full cost of attendance and stipends, we've seen the introduction of NIL and now they are kicking around revenue sharing for all sports -- gotta be Title IX complaint! We wouldn't be competitive in a FBS conference so to spend the money on "lesser" football is simply dead money, especially when football revenues are out of the collection and distribution of the NCAA. College basketball is the ONLY revenue sport that the NCAA collects and distributes and that's why it should be the top funded sport at any non-P5 school. Full stop. To think otherwise simply says you cannot grasp simple economic concepts.

The bottom line is the next decade we will become even less competitive due both institution and economic factors. We will be forced to make tough funding decisions based on our declining enrollment since there will be less student fees collected. While we still have Memorial Stadium which they have to bring in Quikcrete to patch the crumbling mess. Most of all, we still do not have a fan base that cares greatly about FCS football. If you want Indiana State to continue to fund football, cool, but the onus should be on the fans that want it to start paying for it outside of the laughable $60 season ticket. I posted in another thread we'd need $100 million tomorrow to essentially restart the program and we'd still be in FCS football and nobody would care.

Sometimes the truth hurts no matter how we feel about something. Sometimes you just have to let things end. Sycamore football is one of them unless you proponents can fundraise a significant amount of cash. Again, every time I bring this up, the lot of supporters dodge like it is going out of style because they want football as long as they don't have to pay for it.

Jason, this whole post is bullshit. You just hate football and Indiana State.

 

[Bluethunder]

Hello Sycamore Nation. Apologies for this extremely long, first post! I tried so hard to refrain from doing this, but I feel like I can add something to the conversation, so why not. I don't claim to be a financial guru, mathematician or AD with all the answers. What I am is a fan since birth, alum and donor to multiple programs. I was lucky enough to oversee The Forest during the largest enrollment the organization ever had, and I say that not to brag, but to establish that I BLEED blue and will ride-or-die with my alma mater. However, I can see the difficulties facing the department, and more specifically, the football program.

For one, the narrative that fans (especially students) don't/won't support basketball more than football is just not true. A big reason for students? Hulman Center is a five minute walk down the road while, you guessed it, Memorial Stadium is two miles off campus. Doesn't seem like it should be a big deal, but to the students on campus, it is. It's infinitely easier to get students to support .500 basketball teams than fringe FCS playoff teams. That's just the reality of it, unfortunately. And that's how it was when I was a student. We worked our asses off to get students to the stadium with the resources available: free food, free tailgates, free transportation, free shirts, a point system for the Greek Organizations, cool giveaways, contests in association with the athletic department...it just didn't matter. Double that when IU or Purdue are playing at the same time as us. Now do all of those things for a .500 basketball team? It may not completely fill the student section, but in my experience, it works. And we could get Hulman Center rocking in a way Memorial Stadium never could.

Another big point is that our atmosphere at football is just not good enough to bring in locals or fair-weather fans on a consistent basis. It doesn't matter where the blame lies, at the end of the day there just isn't enough funds or investment into the program to change that. Especially at a stadium that is at the bottom of FCS, and probably towards the bottom in D2. I mean, for God's sake we had to stop fireworks for a time because people living near the stadium complained about their dogs shitting. Again here - advantage basketball, if even just for the facility, let alone the atmosphere.

The last BIG point I'll make is this. It is FAR easier to complete on the field/court against the big names in basketball and baseball than football. We've beaten IU in basketball. We've beaten Purdue and Notre Dame. Those have positive impacts on the department, university and community. As much as we all would like to see football beat those schools, it just won't happen, especially in the new era of NIL. Basketball CAN provide image-changing results on a large scale.

Emotionally, I'm 100% against cutting football. Some of my favorite memories have been at football games with family and friends, and I'd bet sitting next to many of you. As mentioned by others, with the current enrollment trend, university budget, and administration (don't get me started on that one), building a sustainable winner isn't in the cards. It also sucks because I'm well-aware it will destroy Homecoming (but let's also not pretend like our joke of a President didn't try to do that first) and that's something that is VERY hard to accept as well. Chalk that up as a loss for the university, fans and alums in this scenario.

In a perfect world, the money all goes to basketball and baseball. In a real world, we know Dr. Curtis and the BOT would never let that happen. I mean we can't even pay a basketball coach more than her lolol. Is it worth the risk? Maybe, maybe not, but we wouldn't be in a worse place financially.

Quick hits on some other points. If we keep football, dropping to the Pioneer League is absolutely foolish. Lose any recruiting advantage, no schollies, and then pretend like we can afford to travel to San Diego, Stetson, Marist, etc. on a consistent basis is crazy. The notion of going independent and just playing FBS schools is comical as well. Guess what doesn't look good for a university? Getting blasted every single week by the big boys of college football.

What shouldn't get lost in all of this is everyone is here for the same reason. People that post here are fanatics. Die-hards. Whether they root for another school outside of ISU or not, or whether they believe the program should get cut. Nothing wrong with rooting for Purdue or Notre Dame (I'm not sure about the others...JK). But I bet if you asked the majority, if ISU takes the field or court against those teams they'll be repping Blue. To insinuate anyone who posts here isn't a real fan is ridiculous. Stepping off my platform now and back into obscurity. ROLL TIMBER and BEAT TESTICLE TECH!

Probably the best “first post” in the history of SycPride.

 

[BWCRESS]

What always amazes me about this discussion every year ( and it is becoming almost a yearly topic) is that the people who support dropping it can post all kinds of financial data showing how bad of an investment it is for the school and how it is financially unsustainable, and the people who are in favor never seem to argue those points, but basically just stick to emotional arguments.

While Jason (and others) can show multiple data points proving that it is not feasible long term, all I ever hear from people who are in favor of it are arguments about how we wouldn’t be a real college without football and how homecoming would be lame (as if the Prez hasn’t done that by herself) without football etc.

If you take the emotion out of it and just look at the numbers there really is no way to justify spending what State does in football other than to say “well I like football so let’s keep it”.

But here is what I always come back to…..we all agree the program isn’t very good. We all agree that the stadium, yearly investment needed to keep up with the rest of college football and facilities are a big anchor around the program’s neck. And we all agree that the school doesn’t have close to the amount of money needed to fix those issues. So then why does anyone expect the next ten years to be somehow different from the past ten years?

If money is a big, big reason why we aren’t competitive, and no major new money is going to be coming to the program, then what is the real goal here? Right now it seems that the main goal is just to trot out a team in ISU uniforms so people can attend a game and reminisce about the “glory years” of ISU football and have a place to meet during homecoming? Is that worth $5 million plus a year?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[sycamore tuff]

I don't think that a lack of money is the reason for lack of success. Maybe it use to be but not now. If it was a lack of money then you guys wouldn't be griping about the money. I doubt we would be having this discussion if we were winning consistently. Even Jason was behind the team a few years ago when we were having some success.

 

[Jason Svoboda]

I don't think that a lack of money is the reason for lack of success. Maybe it use to be but not now. If it was a lack of money then you guys wouldn't be griping about the money. I doubt we would be having this discussion if we were winning consistently. Even Jason was behind the team a few years ago when we were having some success.

Since our "success" happened, full cost of attendance and increased stipends became standard and then NIL dropped within the last couple years. Our "success" was literally a DECADE ago now and we were not "winning consistently" as you say. Miles was 20-36 (35.7%), Sanford was 18-30 (37.5%) and Mallory is 19-38 (33.3%) -- 57-104 which is a 35.4% winning percentage since 2008. Success. LMAO.

When we moved funding from $2m to $4-5m, that brought us in line with MVFC and FCS peers. Once we got there, FCOA and stipends had programs leave the pack again. So we'd need to spend even more to return to that pack yet again and then as @niklz62 likes to point out, our facilities would be woefully inadequate to the rest.

You need $100 million dollars to get to a level competing field with the top MVFC and FCS programs. I'm not being hyperbolic. That would include $75m to build an on-campus stadium and practice facility and then $25m to buy out Mallory, hire and pay a top tier staff and then fully fund them a FCOA runway.

ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS. Just to get to a LEVEL playing field. Additionally, we'd need fans to also donate to Crossroads of Champions to build a NIL war chest to land top flight athletes.

 

[TreeTop]

Looking forward to the replies to Jason's post above....I know they'll be without thought or merit.

 

[4Q_iu]

Yes, absolutely.

Okay - to ask Jason's earlier question... how much are you willing/prepared to spend on supporting the football team; via season ticket purchases, donations to the program via the Varsity Club; buckets of cash to the NIL (Crossroads of Champions), etc, etc, etc

 

[Bobbyk60]

How many KNOW they're funding it

How many KNOW they're funding

Yes,

Okay - to ask Jason's earlier question... how much are you willing/prepared to spend on supporting the football team; via season ticket purchases, donations to the program via the Varsity Club; buckets of cash to the NIL (Crossroads of Champions), etc, etc, etc

Will alumni donations decrease especially with No Homecoming? I don’t just come back to see the game, but the 100+ people I went to school with. Outside of a special moment like we had with our baseball team, I’m not sure I have a good reason to go back. Maybe we’ll just meet in Vegas and spend all our money there.

 

[Bobbyk60]

Will alumni donations decrease especially with No Homecoming? I don’t just come back to see the game, but the 100+ people I went to school with. Outside of a special moment like we had with our baseball team, I’m not sure I have a good reason to go back. Maybe we’ll just meet in Vegas and spend all our money there.

I have a email sent to The Chamber Of Commerce for Terre Haute asking them what economic impact HC does for business. Details to come.

 

[Jason Svoboda]

I have a email sent to The Chamber Of Commerce for Terre Haute asking them what economic impact HC does for business. Details to come.

What are you thinking that will tell you? Correlation does not imply causation.

The majority of people do not come back for Homecoming because of football. They come back because of the pomp and circumstance that is Homecoming and to see their friends. If anything, it shows you that football directly benefits for Homecoming because that is always the single outlier attendance wise.

 

[Jason Svoboda]

Homecoming last year had a 5182 attendance. Here are the largest home crowds per GoSycamores:

 

[Jason Svoboda]

Will alumni donations decrease especially with No Homecoming? I don’t just come back to see the game, but the 100+ people I went to school with. Outside of a special moment like we had with our baseball team, I’m not sure I have a good reason to go back. Maybe we’ll just meet in Vegas and spend all our money there.

No? You know there are schools that do not have football that still have Homecoming, right?

You could also turn it into a basketball-centric Homecoming. Teams can start having practice in mid-October and Lansing always had an open practice during Homecoming. Don't know if HCJS does since I moved away to Vegas, but you could turn it into a Midnight Madness type of event at the Hulman Center where you invite your former players back in to have a All-Star Weekend type of competition with an All-Star game mixed with current, former players and non-basketball players (other sports folks, staff/admin, key alumni), then have a 3 point shootout and dunk contest. Get students involved by having a contest to win tuition, so on and so forth.

I'd actually fly back for Homecoming to see this.

 

[Jason Svoboda]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1701583570135900495

 

[4Q_iu]

Homecoming last year had a 5182 attendance. Here are the largest home crowds per GoSycamores:

View attachment 2164

Seems pretty obvious that ISU football hasn't drawn well in ~40 years.

Have to wonder how many other "10,000+" games are NOT listed... I'd venture none as listing the "Top 16" seems a strange number to list...

 

[Jason Svoboda]

Seems pretty obvious that ISU football hasn't drawn well in ~40 years.

Have to wonder how many other "10,000+" games are NOT listed... I'd venture none as listing the "Top 16" seems a strange number to list...

I'd say that is a solid assumption since most of their lists are Top 20.

The largest attended game I can remember was the 2014 Homecoming game when we had 7500-8000 or so there. I would sit in a specific spot every game and that was the only game where I actually had significant crowding around me. Other Homecomings I'd been to were in the 6500-7500k range over the last decade and I bet those were the highest attendance games since that list if I were a betting man.

 

[4Q_iu]

I have a email sent to The Chamber Of Commerce for Terre Haute asking them what economic impact HC does for business. Details to come.

I'll be shocked if you're provided a lot of details, if you're a paid-in-full member of the Chamber, sure. But if you're Joe Six Pack; you'll get a nice "thank you for your interest in Terre Haute

 

[swsycamore]

Since our "success" happened, full cost of attendance and increased stipends became standard and then NIL dropped within the last couple years. Our "success" was literally a DECADE ago now and we were not "winning consistently" as you say. Miles was 20-36 (35.7%), Sanford was 18-30 (37.5%) and Mallory is 19-38 (33.3%) -- 57-104 which is a 35.4% winning percentage since 2008. Success. LMAO.

When we moved funding from $2m to $4-5m, that brought us in line with MVFC and FCS peers. Once we got there, FCOA and stipends had programs leave the pack again. So we'd need to spend even more to return to that pack yet again and then as @niklz62 likes to point out, our facilities would be woefully inadequate to the rest.

You need $100 million dollars to get to a level competing field with the top MVFC and FCS programs. I'm not being hyperbolic. That would include $75m to build an on-campus stadium and practice facility and then $25m to buy out Mallory, hire and pay a top tier staff and then fully fund them a FCOA runway.

ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS. Just to get to a LEVEL playing field. Additionally, we'd need fans to also donate to Crossroads of Champions to build a NIL war chest to land top flight athletes.

Who on here is donating to Crossroads to Champions?

 

[DyedBlue]

Lots of repetitive stuff here, so I thought I would inject something new. Highly improbable I know, but five years ago who saw UCLA and USC in the Big 10 and the Big 12 flourishing while the PAC-12 is on life support at best hoping the MWC throws in a life preserver?

1. Is it conceivable that Division 1 College Football (meaning both FBS and FCS) will develop a 'life-support' system for the FCS programs in which say $4MM of the gigantic media rights pie gets diverted directly to every FCS program? This would be about $500 million/year give or take. Leagues like the SEC/Big10 would contribute the most money (but lowest % of total sports revenues. Even losing FBS coaches want to keep their jobs and so do the ADs. Having beatable opponents around for 3-4 games early in the season helps accomplish the job saving mission. The current system in use each FB season can allow a team to go 6-6 while going 2-6 in league play. Bowl Eligible!!
1.1 In the extreme, FCS programs would become 'farm teams' of Power Conference Teams. Perhaps two FCS teams per Power 5 Team. For its $4-5MM/year support of its farm teams, the parent would have the ability to 'call up' players to its FBS program. It could also 'send down' some players it wants to get playing time rather than riding the bench for a year or two. Perhaps a system like this would bring greater equality to FCS programs.

2. While considering the economics of the ISU FB program, I think we could take into account that there are 100-110 players on the roster and only 63 scholarships. That means there are 40+ young men paying their way to be a part of this team. For room, board, and tuition this comes to around $25K/player. I expect most of them would be attending somewhere else to continue the opportunity to play college football. This brings about $1MM/year into the university's coffers. In all of the financial discussions, I have never read anything about considering the financial impact of the walk-on players.
2.1 Any non-athletic scholarship or grant money they have received would most probably go to some student who deserves it; however, that is a decision by the university to expend those funds entirely independent of athletics.